Mircea Lobo

Ah... that's something I didn't think of. You would need a copy of the physics engine client-side as well, and I remember that Havok is not open-source nor free to use. My suggestion would be doing it without requiring this if possible (just simulating some base positions in the client). If it's not possible without physics being included in the viewer though, I guess we'd stick with the server movement forever.

Interesting. I wonder how articles like this one or this one appeared 5 years ago. I was hoping they're part of a delayed decision or something. Still, is LL determined not to consider this at some point? As for harming SL, a fully compatible server might affect the main grid, though I don't think it would decrease its popularity or user count too much. Not to be mean, but I still wish a lot for such a server to happen and offer us an alternative

More than the Linden grid, I'm interested in using Second Life as an open and complete technology. Although I've been with the OpenSim project for years, there are still a lot of things that are not ready yet in OS. I was googling about the Second Life server, and found old Linden announcements saying the server side might be open sourced as well. At this day, is there any information about Linden's take on this? Do they still plan to release the original server code like they did with the client, and is the matter being discussed? It would be a nice thing and highly appreciated if they could do this at some point. Note that I'm not suggesting a way that would allow stealing assets or other SL works... but for using on an entirely different grid (or hosting your own sim on the LL grid but without being able to copybot things or hack objects).

@ Kwakkelde: The difference between meshes and sculpties is not that huge. With meshes you can import a model by just converting it. But even with sculpt prims, you could segment a basic mesh into separate sculpties and import it. It would be harder to do and quality would be much lower, but the mesh could still be recognizable. I don't believe quality affects legality either. Also, even if this wasn't the case, there are scripts or modded clients that can convert meshes to shape prims (some using boxes for triangle faces). They were ugly and laggy, but I remember testing them in OpenSim and they looked interesting, especially with low-poly meshes. So if we go as far as possible in speculating and interpreting, those infringements cannot be prevented unless the grid gets totally policed. Which I don't doubt most users would actually support. @ ImNotGoing: In that case, it saddens me to hear someone who's worked in open source thinks this way. I'm not saying disrespect their TOS, but some people come here for years, and to a good level it's their place too. Believing that LL has the right to take everything they've done or have in SL away just cuz they own the server is wrong. Sorry, but the community has rights too. As for LL paying their billls, we already pay 10L$ for each upload which is perfectly fair. As for your take on the payment information limit: So it's better to sacrifice functionality just to be sure they can run after thieves and catch them more easily? That's a mentality I haven't seen in software even more corporal than Second Life. But I'll ask again: If for some reason I can't or don't make myself a debit card, why should I go to a sandbox and build with prims while everyone else around me builds with meshes? Is that more fair just so LL can chase their thieves more easily? @ Masami: This. Nice to finally see someone who notices the obvious. I'm against policing any uploads... but giving a special regime for meshes (and with such stupid "preventions") is by far the stupidest way.

My point is to ask LL to stop being obsessed about everything (as well as part of the SL community) and to remove those restrictions in the next viewer update. I will probably make a JIRA ticket asking them more politely to do so. I dismiss justifications to this because I'm against pointless restrictions, especially if done badly. If you like Linden playing police with you, please take that to an RP sim, but don't throw it on all users. I come to SL to build and relax from the crap in real life, not to take law school lessons.

Sorry for the double post, but I just realized something. SL already has free mesh support for years, called sculpt prims. The new meshes are basically the same thing... except they're of higher quality, rigged, and support UV mapping (if I'm right about those features). So basically, this is just a higher quality implementation of something already there, not a whole new possibility. Till now, anyone could have converted an "illegal" mesh to a bunch of sculpt prims in Blender, despite the low quality and limits that would have. Yet another reason why this whole thing is senseless, unless they police sculpties too (which would be very wrong). Seriously LL... please change this >_>

First of all, a few more words to miss ImNotGoing. So to you, users have no rights in SL because Linden started the projects and owns the servers. In that case, I suggest the admins add your account to a "personal discretion" database. Where they can ban you, remove your in-world works, etc. based on how they're feeling in the morning, without giving a damn about you. Also, people created original content in SL, which belongs to them. And forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't some of the users contribute to the viewer's development since it went open-source? Not to mention those who have friends here, and for whom SL is part of their everyday lives, which was a right given to them by LL. Yet to you, all of them have no rights and no say on what's happening? I think I'm done with this debate. As for realXtend, they are not ok with theft. You assume that because for some users, having an extreme attitude against any new feature is the only way of preventing theft. As for me staying here, don't worry... I wanted to move to OpenSim for years, specifically to run away from the bull**bleep** on this grid. I haven't because there aren't enough users, but maybe someday that will change. Till then, you'll have to bare with me OpenSim also offers mesh support for free (as in freedom), making them another evil pro-piracy group automatically. Anyway, I can understand LL's concern with such laws and their importance. I just dislike their approach, as well as failing to understand how meshes are worse when most "copyright infringement" is done with music and 2D art. Every form of infringement mentioned here (such as ripping stuff from games) can easily be done with textures and sounds. Putting such restrictions on meshes just because they're a new feature only aggravates some users, and will not prevent anything. Maybe I'm the only one here. But my wish is to see SL being a free and well-implement virtual worlds system, where the focus is on getting things working for everyone instead of implementing pointless restrictions. At least that's how I was "grown and educated" in the open-source environments. Last night, instead of testing and enjoying a wonderful new feature, I had my nose rubbed into stories about how Lady Gaga cums if you model her in 3D, Coca Cola pisses if you put their logo on a prim, and The Beavers **bleep** if you scrape their team name on the terrain. Maybe I'm weird to the normality of this forum, but that is plainly stupid. Also, I am lucky that I have payment info on file, since I made a bank account a few years ago to use it with paypal (independently SL). If I wouldn't have done that, I would be unable to enjoy this feature and use all means of building in-world. Basically, I'd have to make prim objects while others around me could use meshs, just because they have an internet compatible debit card. Is this right to you guys?

Some people (which occasionally exist and have opinions too) use "their lawn" as well. Which was setup specifically for them, as a place to spend time in and do things there. Overall, some might have the right to complain if bulls**t is thrown in their face for no reason. But the whole "you have no rights because you don't own the lot" mentality is common around SL, so I'm not surprised. Also, as far as I know, complaining about the admins is not a bannable offense. Though with such obsessive mindsets, who knows how much longer that will last. I also don't believe this is caution, but stupidity. They totally don't need to restrict new features like this to avoid legal trouble. First of all, how can meshes increase copyright problems more than other forms of creation SL has for years? Second, why can other projects supporting custom content exist and have a decent attitude? realXtend (Second Life fork which supports meshes for years) allows people to upload meshes without having to put up a horrible whole show about it. I'm also developer of an open-source game where custom content is very common (especially meshes), and no one put up a web-based academy or asked for a bank account so you can make custom player models.

WARNING! Before reading any further, please note that this is a rant posted by a pissed off user. I'm not aiming to start any drama... but sometimes, you just gotta rant. So yeah, you have been warned. I was fascinated with mesh support finally being available on the main grid, so I went to check it out and and play with a free example. I downloaded a package in .dae format, then went in SL to import it. Once I went to the Upload -> Mesh menu, I noticed that you are required to get certified in order to upload meshes. I clicked the link included to see what that was about, and this is where the fun began. First of all: In order to upload a mesh to SL, you need to go through 10 pages of lecture on copyrights, bundled with a whole web-based exam (pretty much like applying for a license). For the first minute, I thought this is a joke. When I realized they were serious, I was "WTF" out loud, and cried at how large God's garden can be. Don't get me wrong... the test was easy, and I got a 10/10 in 5 minutes. But requiring an online exam in order to upload some 3D meshes? No offense, but I find this embarrassing. Just what were they thinking? Maybe a simple TOS would have sufficed? Then again, I could not expect more from a company that excuses identity theft with protecting kids from virtual porn. One of the many stupid things here is that meshes are one of the least creations you can infringe "internet lawz" with. Yet LL acts like you are getting a drivers license or a permit to own guns. Why not do the same about uploading images and music, which are much more dangerous from this point of view? Also, you can offend and morally rape a celebrity using either the default avatars or simple prims. Perhaps we should get lectured and take exams before being able to rez cubes as well? To sum it up, how are meshes any different than other uploads?! The second thing that pissed me off is that you are required to have payment information on file in order to upload meshes. So if your SL account is not connected to a bank, you cannot import meshes although you can upload as many images and sounds as you like. Where is the logic in this guys? Must LL's practices of online oppression be this pointless? I mean if the whole "internet school of uploading meshes" thing had at least some logic behind it, why this? It annoys me because it limits building abilities to users, for no reason at all. Why not give all users equal rights to build and enjoy SL? To clarify: The reason I am pissed at such things is the unnecessary forms of oppression that LL loves to display for years. It's not a technical thing as much as an attitude thing, and the like to "limit things for people just for the sake of it, and showing we are mighty and powerful". That stupid test took 5 minutes, and I already have payment info on file (and uploaded my first mesh), so I wasn't affected otherwise. Just why can't SL be a normal 3D environment for once... where we don't take school exams to upload meshes, get our identity stolen in the name of protecting kiddies from 3D dicks, and other dumb things? Seriously... some of us come to SL to take a break from the displays of idiocracy we deal with in real life, not to deal with the online version of "the police state". I was eager to test meshes like a normal feature, not get reminded of how big Linden's ego is. Sorry if my rant annoyed any innocent (and sane) users on this forum. Also if it's in the wrong thread (put it in meshes because the mesh upload system was the subject of this story). Other than that, I like how meshes work... such as upload price depending on polygon count which is fair and useful. Would be nice if LOD levels could be generated on the run though, instead of wasting space and cache having multiple versions of the same model. Hope meshes will become popular in SL soon.

You could say my concern is over lag, but not doing the impossible and making it go away. Any multiplayer environment has lag to some level, as there's no engine that can handle a client -> server -> client message at a speed fast enough not to notice. Other engines however simulate some effects (like movement) locally before the server responds, to make this lag unnoticeable. Imagine how playing your favorite FPS would be like if such a thing didn't exist. Players would jitter everywhere, weapons would fire too late, and no one would probably hit anyone else (even on good ping). Overall, people would probably not play games like Quake or Unreal Tournament at all. What I suggested is using the same technology in SL to make movement more responsive and realistic. SL isn't a game of course, but I believe good movement is still important. As for it taking the fun out of SL, I doubt. I don't believe laggy movement makes SL what it is or is a positive factor. Personally, I see it as lack of a good implementation. I aim at having SL feel realistic and immersive for me (like any 3D game), and believe responsiveness is important for that. And yeah, I know that SL renders everything in real-time which is a greater challenge. Most games use compiled maps with VIS culling and baked lightmaps, while SL has to handle everything on the go (usually with a lot of prims). Sometimes I'm surprised rendering is even this fast. Movement prediction however, is not something impossible with the nature of SL (correct me if I'm wrong). Not saying SL can't live without it... just that IMHO it would be a very welcome addition.

Not sure if I posted this in the past, so I'll make a new topic. This is an issue I discussed in several SL groups, and consider it one of the biggest problems with immersion and good feel in Second Life. I play many 3D games, especially First / Third Person Shooters and MMO's. One thing I always wanted in SL was movement and avatar reaction time like in any good game engine. SL movement feels very laggy and fake, and in-world presence the same due to it. Instead of feeling I am the avatar, I feel I'm controlling the avatar from a distance using a rusty remote with bad signal. This is caused by several things... such as the lack of good view bobbing, quality footstep sounds, realistic character physics (the avatar still feels like it's sliding), and a timely reaction to movement keys. Of all things on that list, the one that bothers me most is the lack of client-side movement. I don't believe a 3D environment can feel right when it takes half a second to start / stop walking when you press / release a movement key. Any multiplayer game has ways to circumvent this, by having movement simulated locally before it actually happens on the server, so the player sees himself walking straight away without noticing server response time. SL however doesn't have a system to do this. And especially if the sim is lagging, you struggle to take a few steps forward... like when you're trying to run in a bad dream and get stuck :P This delay also affects interactive objects. IMO, it feels wrong to click an object, wait about half a second, then see the result. Some games predict interactivity too... so in engines like Quake and UT, doors instantly open when you walk into them and weapons shoot immediately. It would feel a lot better if scripted objects in SL (especially weapons) could be interpreted locally. So when the user presses a key, the client realizes what will happen and shows the result already, syncing it with the server later on. Can LL or users who customize the client look into this and possibly implement something, especially for avatar movement? Or is there some debug setting which can already do something similar? If SL is to be a modern engine, I believe this needs to happen at some point, and I hope we might see it done soon.

I tried the SL3 viewer last night. On this matter, there are good news and bad news. Good news is that, web profiles seem to be finally gone, and profiles are re-integrated into the viewer UI. Bad news however, is that search is now web-based instead. You can no longer search for people, groups, sims, etc. without using a web page. My feeling when I seen one thing getting solved for another to get broken was "why are we never allowed to have good things" Seriously... I don't mind web-based features if they are separate. But I do mind turning parts of the normal viewer into web pages. If you wanna make a separate HTML viewer for Second Life, that is nice. But in the normal viewer, PLEASE keep the menus and features inside the client. That's my take on this.

I was going to make a new topic about this, but won't to avoid the drama. After having my identity stolen not once, but twice by LL, last night I got a message in-world saying that I'm not verified... again. Even if I'll be blocked from entering some sims, I am not sending my ID to strangers a third time. If other SL-ers still want to put up with this and fail to see that what LL is doing is a crime, I cannot do more and no longer care. I don't want to start conspiracy theories, but I'd bet my head that LL highly enjoys this "child protection from some pixels" excuse to collect our identities and know everything about their users (hence why they reset verification every few months or years). If others are ok that, I'll shut up and get used to being blocked from some parcels. I'm too sick of this story to even care any more.

I was looking for a way to enable fullscreen rendering (not windowed mode) in the SL3 viewer. To my amazement, I found out that SL removed support for fullscreen altogether. My reaction when I read that was "lol... WHAT?" Of the craziest things LL has done with SL, this one takes a large bite of the cake. How can you remove an essential feature like FullScreen rendering from any 3D application? There's no game, virtual space, etc. I know of that does not allow this. The uses are many... such as using a custom resolution for SL, getting rid of the space taken up by the titlebar and Windows taskbar, improving performance (by not having to render the desktop any more), and so on. Either way, I'm asking if this feature is going to get re-implemented soon. If not, I'm asking LL to please do it ASAP. I really don't see how any stable 3D program can exist without this, nor how SL lasted for so many versions without fullscreen support. Thanks.

I was looking to know the same thing, and found this topic. My reaction when I read this was "lol... WHAT?" Of the stupidest things LL has done with SL, this one takes a large bite of the cake. How can you remove an essential feature like FullScreen rendering in any 3D application? There's no game, virtual space, etc. I know of on this internet, that does not allow this. Epic fail... I hope LL will re-implement it soon in viewer 3.

Thanks for linking that, replied there too. And yeah, I don't think it will pass either, and truly hope it won't.

Probably because most Second Lifers have common sense. Why would anyone support brutal internet censorship like that, apart from rich fat and greedy corporations? There are enough copyright laws, and the way things are now is ok and fair. I'm asking everyone to please fight this and help keeping the internet free! Here is my topic where I found this thread: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Help-fight-internet-censorship-and-SOPA/td-p/1266343

It seems that this is the General section of the forum for both Second Life and Real Life. If this is in the wrong area, I'm sorry and please move it. Every few years, the internet has to deal with a greedy politician or corporation trying to censor it, in the hope of obtaining more money. Now it's that time again. Some guys are begging for the internet to be policed, with a new bill called SOPA. Many users are worried because several countries are showing signs of accepting it. I doubt it will pass, but it's never the less important for everyone who is against this to oppose that movement. It's a very dangerous initiative, that can even allow bringing websites down for very interpretable reasons! Mozilla has a site specifically for this, where you can sign a petition. http://www.mozilla.org/sopa/ Apparently, that's an US only page, and will only work with American ZIP codes. If someone outside of America still wishes to sign it though, you can use a fake ZIP. I found several on this [url=http://www.city-data.com/zipDir.html]web page[/url]. More info can be found on google... just look up SOPA. I know this sort of thing gets old and annoying, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. If you don't agree with the internet being censored, please sign that and any anti-SOPA petitions on the internet, and tell everyone who might be interested about this (or spread the news around in other places however you can). Thank you.

Every once in a while, there's that time when LL does something very very wrong. And not long ago, something I qualify as that has happened again, as the SL2 viewer introduced Web Profiles. The UI profiles were much better in my opinion. Something that many people seem to agree with, as discussed on AW Groupies. One reason is performance. Loading only the profile values within SL was much quicker than loading an external web page. Second is that they were easier to use and much more practical, keeping them in the same place as all your settings. Like someone once said, SL is one of the few engines that has the ability to display and edit profiles in an interface, which is a blessing. And now, they threw this away for something worse. Also remember that at some point in existence, SL had "web logins" as well, and they were removed due to bad performance. What next... web inventory? The question now is if there's any chance of LL reverting back to the UI profiles, and being convinced to undo this change. Keep in mind they can keep the web profiles too. But also the UI ones, and only use the web ones on the Second Life website. So in SL, profiles are on SL. And on the web, profiles are web pages. Hope something can be done about this.

I had this same issue a while back. I verified years ago, but discovered I need to do so again a few weeks back. Since I find age verification both stupid and revolting (because it steals identity to "lie check" people, and for a purpose as stupid as blocking some porn) I had a VERY heated discussion with LL about it, and them asking me for new ID again. At the time being, I'm legally reporting LL to authorities for identity theft, until I get an answer and age verification is finally removed.