Jennifur Vultee
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Blog Comments posted by Jennifur Vultee
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Sorry Jennifur just tired of people saying "everyobdy will just rip models from <insert website here> LOL"
Like there is no one in SL with the talent to create their own meshes.
No need to apologize to me...I totally get where you're coming from...that's why I thought it was cute that I could copy and paste your reply to me earlier. lol
I have to say I'm getting a bit wearing of argument that its going to be mostly content downloaded from other sites. And yes as I said in an earlier post people will try...they may not succeed but they will try. Now as for me I believe this will spur an interest in 3D apps as people want to create their own meshes...just like people learned to create sculpted prims who had never worked in 3D before. And I know that people who really do enjoy creating meshes are going to frown on any content that does cross the border from web site X. Besides where's the fun in downloading a mesh and tossing it in SL?
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And finally... someone suggested that when I build or rebuild my current Sculpty landscape pack OBJ files in Zbrush, I should make sure that I build it to scale as that is how it will rez. WHA?? So an SL builder cannot scale a Mesh in SL like they can with other prims? Will Meshes in SL be like the fixed size Megas? And regrarding megas... can we now create Mesh objects / prims in SL that are "mega" - ie. they can exceed 10x10x10m?
I will just read any responses but I can no longer post here. This blog site is simply soooo lagged!
Thank Q for the link to tech info. I will look there.
When you import the mesh the .dae file is essentially embedded in a prim that becomes your mesh as you created it for lack of a better way to explain it...you get a mesh object in you object folder. You don't have to drag the .dae file into a prim or anything like that. The mesh is rezzed like any other object in SL by dragging it to the ground or wearing it as the case may be. These meshes have the same modify, copy, transfer permissions as any prim or sculpted prim. So if you sell full perm meshes the customer will get a copy of the mesh you uploaded not a .dae file they have to use with a prim like they do with a sculpted prims sculpt map. That's how it currently works...there was a different method of upload a few months ago in which a "mesh object" from a different folder was drug into the sculpt map window in the Edit window so if LL decides that is a better way it may come back but I doubt it at this point.
Meshes rez the size you created them so in the case of a lighthouse I uploaded it was the same size in SL as it was in 3DS Max, 100 meters tall or so, I don't remember exactly...create your meshes to the scale you want them in your 3D app. If you have a grid set the grid to display as one meter squares as a visual reference. If you try to resize them they behave like megaprims and snap to 10 meters but otherwise will retain their shape...just smaller. A mesh smaller than 10 meters can be scaled up to 10 meters like a normal prim.
I think that covers your questions except for the ones about Zbrush but I can't answer them. If you have any more questions keep them coming.
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Yeah because I'm sure no one who was using 3D Studio Max back in 1997 before SL was even thought of can make a 3D model themselves utilizing their own talent.
*falls over in shock*
Someone who gets it! OH EMM GEE
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You have to remember Masami I'm Blender illiterate. I clicked, File, Export, Collada 1.4 and I kept getting an error message with no idea how to correct it. "Cannot Find Folder" "Please set path in file colladaImport14.py" That may sound easy enough and I'm sure it probably is but I have no clue how to fix it. I'ma Max user...Blender though a great program confuses me to no end.
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If you're implying that the Lindens working on mesh read these posts and changed the prim cost based on that I can tell you that's not what happened. We were told flat out none of them have looked at this thread since it was posted because they've been too busy preparing for the public bets. The adjustment was just and change to how the mesh prim cost is calculated nothing more.
I fail so how you can equate mesh with a copybot, that's a pretty big leap in my opinion solely intended to frighten people and turn them against mesh import. I'm assuming once again you're alluding to meshes downloaded from 3D sites imported to SL. In that case as I mentioned in a reply to Ann some skills with a 3D app are still required to export the files as .dae. You seem to think few people are capable of creating original mesh content and most will simple use meshes from 3D sites. I see it the other way around...many amateur content creators creating lots of original meshes with very few people taking the time to learn how to import a downloaded mesh into a 3D app like Blender (great program but awful user interface, I have a lot of respect for the hearty soles using Blender) and then figure out how to export it. I tried to export a mesh from Blender that I created in 3DS Max created, I've used Max for close to five years yet I couldn't export from Blender as .dae.
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As to the first question yes your avatar can interact with mesh...if its a rock you can walk over it. Here's my avatar standing in the cabin of the locomotive I'm working on...no standard prims were used as platforms to stand on...she is standing on the mesh. Ignore the aweful texture...it was a color scheme test.
I wouldn't be too worried that people will have a huge head start on you...there will be a several month long public beta during which you can get familiar with the process of mesh. Its pretty easy really...the hardest part is creating the mesh and during the public beta if you have questions or need help you can always ask one of the beta testers. I'll be available if needed. I'm pretty confident you'll see how easy it is your first time.
Here's the steps:
Create your mesh I recommend naming it in your 3D app or it will import as "cylinder01_Mesh" or "box01_Mesh" , unwrap the UVWs, create and apply your texture. You have the option to embed your textures as part of the upload.
Export it as .dae, make sure you manually type the file extension .dae on the end of your mesh name.
Log in to the viewer, click Upload, Model. Browse for your model, then once its in the preview window click Generate LOD (assuming you haven't created your own lower LOD models, if you have browse for them now). Click Upload and your mesh will be deposited in your objects folder.
Drag your mesh onto the ground and it rezzes the size you created it so be conscious of scale when creating your mesh. If you haven't embedded your textures simply upload them now and drag them to the part of the mesh they were UVW mapped to.
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Its ok...you still don't get me either or seem to understand actual time and effort goes into mesh.
Oh and I forgot to respond to one of your questions earlier. I had to be invited to the beta test on the recommendation of someone already in it...I have no idea who recommended me. I assume it was someone who saw me posting in the builders forum about sculpted prims.
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You don't get it...its not the upload costs people would be paying $1000 lindens for but rather my time and skills. I spent around six hours modeling and another eight unwrapping the UVW maps...which has to be done by hand. I haven't even begun to work on the textures but I'm estimating that will take another six to eight hours. $1000 isn't really that much in the grand scheme of things, that's about $3.70 US if you have to buy them. Unwrapping a UVW map on a complex mesh is tedious and time consuming if you want to make the mesh easy to texture. I really hate to say it but compared to unwrapping a complex UVW map texturing the average prim object in SL is child's play. There are of course exceptions such as Tumansky Heavy Industries beautifully built and textured cars and aircraft and others who build wonderfully detailed and textures prim items.
A new viewer was released with revised prim costs, the locomotive is now showing as 12 prims.
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I knew I should have gotten a picture of my avatar standing in the cab looking out the window. Yes you can get inside.
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Very nice work. If you did not already you might consider seperating the wheels and drive links so they can be animated with scripts. Would look good cruising SLRR (assuming it is compatible wheel spacing wise, etc.)
Thank you Ann. Honestly I never thought about selling it since I just make whatever I feel like in Max because its fun. But yeah it could easily be made with seperate components for animating...prolly the biggest thing to compatability is knowing the spacing of the rails.
In response to Vivienne.
8 prims, so she might have done that. 10 lindens per prim (from what i have heard). So 80 Lindens upload fee. Rotation scripts are free, anyway. So are textures (more or less). So...for a cost of 30 cents she gets a "nice" loco.She likes to "store" stuff, as she mentioned elsewhere.
How much will she charge for this? 50 Lindens?
Anyway, she is somehow adorable, and i mean this. She actually tries her 3500 dollar software. The more clever will not even do this, but get some free tool for converting something like this:
http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3d-old-steam-locomotive-br-86-model/305944
as shown here:
into collada.
Will cost probably 4 dollars and almost no time. Great for Linden Lab, but...hey...let´s forget about thinking of an "economy". With mesh imports this is the past.
Second Life will either change or die. Or both. I take bets.
I don't do scripting unless I have to and I couldn't write a script if I had a gun to my head. IF I sell it it will be full perm with UVW maps, shadow maps and would likely cost in the range of $1000 lindens. Yes I get told I'm adorable a lot...thank you. I have no idea what you mean by I like to "store" stuff...I do have a store but its a clothing shop. I do more than "try" my $3500 software...put your money where your mouth is and download a 3DS Max 2011 demo and lets see you do better. You seem to have a real fascination with Turbosquid...I guess you'll be one of the first selling downloaded meshes because you can't be bothered to take the time to learn how to make them. Sad really. -
Yeeees...interesting....hhhhhmmmmmm.
Yes by golly its the closed mesh beta...ya got me partner! I've only said I was a beta tester like 6 times in this thread. Do you actually read what anyone else writes or just skim it for what you feel are key phrases that you post in your reply?
If you look at the picture there's a clue as to how many prims...that would be the number....8. You did it Blue! You found the clue!
No idea what it will cost to upload, as I said in other posts that's still being determined...a Linden at the mesh meeting yesterday said prices were still being worked out when asked about upload costs.
No clue how many verts...doesn't matter. It is however 10060 triangles, 4999 polygons. The tracks are 21.8m long bu 5.3m wide. The locomotive itself is...5.6m high, 4.09m wide and 19.8m long.
As to why not try THIS one? Because I don't have to...I replicated the locomotive pretty accurately based on the reference image I had to work from. That called skill...you should git sum. pwned Oh no she dident! Oh wait...yeah I did. Not everyone plans to attempt to upload meshes from other sites you you claim you will...good luck with that by the way. For more information read my earlier reply to Ann...yes you'll have to scroll up.
I don't know if you thought I couldn't answer the questions or if this is your idea of speed dating...I'm hoping it was just a standard interrogation though. lol
Here a pic just for you...
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how about a linkset exporter and it gets converted to a reasonable facsimile in an object format and you polish it up in blender and texture using whatever 3D texturing tool floats your boat? gives the in world lego fun and gets to a mesh approximation.
Still won't be as good as knowing what you arew doing in a real modeling tool. but people are in SL for fun aren't they?
I took the advice others earlier and got into the free program for autodesk since I qualified. After a few months of studies i should be able to do better than I can now stumbling through the blender interface without a cane.
With Primcomposer for 3DS Max you can export your prims and work on them if you choose to. I dunno Anne I jusr like being creative so I do spend a lot of time in Photoshop aleardy and I think its fun...just adding Max to that seems like no big deal to me I guess.If you need any help with the Autodesk program Ann let me know, I have some tutorial site links...if its Max you got I may be able to answer some questions and help you out.
Woot I finished the basic work work on my steam engine. ^^ Just needs textures now...ok I'm all happy so I thought I'd try and post a pic.
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Usually I'm the last person to raise the spectre of competition, but if I have a choice between spending time building directly in a virtual world that supports it, or building in Blender for later upload to SL, where do you think I'm going to spend my time?
Eh...I just spent the last six hours unwrapping the UVW map for a steam engine in 3DS Max...the whole time I was listening to the music on my sim, flipping back and forth between Max and SL to check on my shop periodically and for the first few hours I was talking to my best friend. I tell you what Qie if you're going to want inworld mesh creation go the extra step and ask Santa Linden for an inworld texture editor too ...something at least as good as Gimp. I'm still waiting on a pony. lolIf you build and make your own textures (as others have pointed out before) you have to leave the SL window to work on your textures. When you get down to it SL (and its clones like OpenSim and Inworlds) is the only virtual world that I know of that even allows you to create anything inworld via prims. Even on the off chance enough people raise hell and LL gives in I think you'll find manipulating vertices in SL itself to be a very frustrating experience. When I work in Max I almost never work in the perspective window...95% of the time I'm working in the top view, side view or front view.
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Honestly Ann I don't think that's going to be as big an issue as people think it will be. Here's why I say that...a lot of those meshes are very high poly and a person who doesn't know how to work in a 3D app is not going to know how to break it apart into smaller parts so it will upload. On the off chance they do figure out how to break it into smaller parts the upload cost and prim cost will likely make them think twice about uploading and rezzing it. From what I've seen of free meshes on Turbosquid and other sites they typically don't look that good. Renderosity meshes tend to be high polygon for scenes renders (pictures). Are people going to try to download free meshes and upload then to SL...sure they are, but before they can upload them they still have to export or convert them to the Collada format since most are in 3DS, Maya, Blender or .obj format...again some 3D skills required.
A 500,000 triangle motorcycle was mentioned in an earlier post, that's still about 250,000 polygons...I have a mesh that is a little over 4000 polygons and I had to break it up into four pieces for it to upload. I got an upload error "asset too large" when I tried to upload it the first two times. Most people who are excited about mesh import and know how to work in 3D probably also know to create their meshed as low poly as possible. The goal is smooth real time rendering...the lower the polygon count the faster and smoother the render will be. High polygon meshes are fine for static rendered scenes but I seriously doubt many people can render them real time in SL.
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No. Just no. I mean, really: No fashionista is going to wear a crappy system avatar (soon to be labelled the "n00b avatar") and stand next to another fashionista wearing ten times as many vertices and a hundred times the skin resolution. Not a chance in hell. The existing skin and clothing assets are simply obsolete.
The sooner skin and clothing creators absorb that fact, the less likely they'll be bulldozed into oblivion by Mesh. There's a huge opportunity here and somebody is going to take advantage of it.
I guess on this point we'll just have to agree to disagree. My best friend in SL is very much the fashionista and I can pretty much guarantee there is no way she would give up over two years of clothing for a new avatar. Would/will some do it? Sure but they will be limiting themselves to clothes and skins from just one shop or if the mesh creator distributes the UVW maps just a handful of shops. I really don't think many people will want limit themselves that much.
I work in a niche market in SL...I make clothing for six brands of prim breasts and the are maybe 15 to 20 other shops that do too. Most of the shops that cater to busty girls only make clothing for 2-3 brands of breasts, as a result their clothing options are very limited compared to the thousands of shops that have standard clothing.
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how trivial is it to convert the code that gens a sculptie to a mesh? I'm pretty sure in world sculpt tools will be rebranded as mesh tools overnight and then enhanced to add more capabilities.
One of the big limitations of creating a mesh in SL would be a proper UVW map editor. No inworld sculpty tool that I know of can create a UVW map or bake textures like a 3D application can and to build those functions in would likely be extremely difficult. Mesh will rely heavily on UVW maps for texture creation if the mesh maker sells their meshes...otherwise you're no better off and realistically in worse shape than applying a grid to a sculpty to create your texture. Just try applying a grid to the SL avatar and attempting to use that grid in photoshop or gimp to create a top or pair of pants instead of the avatar UWV map. Why not insist LL or a third party scripter create a fully functional texture editor for inworld as well...nobody seems to have issues leaving SL to create their textures but with mesh its somehow different and I don't understand that. -
Can any linden or tester comment on how lip-sync and/or emotes will work with avatar meshes?
At this point no lip sync and emotes that change facial expressions will not work with a custom avatar mesh. Emotes that animate the avatar body sich as a wave will work. Facial exspessions are controlled by morph animations that are currently not supported in mesh import.If you aren't familiar with morph animations the easiest way to describe it is that a duplicate of the original mesh is created for each facial exspression, the vertices of the face are manilupated into a smile for example. This proccess has to be repeated for every facial exspression, so if the face has 12 expressions there are 12 duplicate meshes with those facial expressions linked to the original mesh. Once all the expressions are completed and linked to the riginal mesh then the original can be exported as a morph animation file. Its a little more complex than that but thats the gist of how it works.
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It's now quite clear that nothing of the sort was happening. And that brings me back to my much earlier post, the fourth in this thread: Just what the hell have they been doing for the past three months?
Back around the time of the NDA leak, some Linden mentioned that all the secrecy was necessary because Mesh would have a very profound effect on the SL economy. That stuck in the back of my mind: Yeah, it's a big effect on the economy, but how does it help to keep the technical details secret all that time? Were they going to use that time to develop a differentiator from competitors? Something like an in-world Mesh editor, perhaps? Clearly not.
My best guess at this point is that the secrecy was to make sure people wouldn't stop buying skins and texture-based clothing for their soon-to-be-obsolete system avatars (and sculpties, and prim builds). It would be bad if the economy had undergone a six month hiatus while everybody awaited the vastly superior content. That's just not the reason for which I'd hoped.
The secrecy was important because as mesh as developed in SL the methods of importing it and how it functions were changing. There was no reason to release information that was very likely to change and in many cases did and to some extent is still being tweaked before the public beta. The past three months have seen changes to how mesh is imported and how many prims its going to cost (still being tweaked), how its physics will be handled and the addition of rigging for attachments/avatars.
As to the concerns that someone will create an avatar that makes the current SL avatar obsolete all I can say is yes people will be making new novelty avatars or even just re-mapping the standard avatar. Having said that I think should be clear these will be specialty items that cannot use the standard clothing or skins. I seriously doubt any of these new avatars will replace the existing SL avatar as a standard...there's just way too much content that would be broken. For example lets say someone wanted an avatar based on the SL avatar but with separate textures for the arms. Sure its doable but the consumer would have to be willing to first buy that avatar then skins and clothing that go with it (and are likely only sold in that shop) and be willing to let, in some cases years, of clothing sit untouched in their inventory.
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Prokofy and Vivienne you might like this video.
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I guess posts are like potato chips...the forum just can't eat one. I had a fairly long post but I don't feel like retyping it. The gist of it was this...overall the beta tester will be helpful getting people up to speed. There will be a public beta that will likely last a several months during which people already familiar with their programs can get comfortable with the process of importing for SL and finding out what works and what doesn't. People have time now to start learning free/low cost or expensive programs if they want to create meshes and the inworld 3d app groups will be helpful to them started. Overall the beta tester will be helping smooth the transition for anyone with import problems during the open beta.
My other post was a lot better but I've been sick for the past week and just don't have the energy or brain cells to redo it.
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I'll tell you who the fearful and snivelling ones are, those who can't conceive of a world of freedom where everyone is free to create at different levels with accessible tools, and instead, has to preserve a medieval bastion of guild craftsmen who hoard the remaining, dwindling supply of specialized knowledge to themselves on the cusp of the next tool revolution when the knowledge will become obsolete. THAT's what fear looks like.
The real challenge is designing a world that doesn't merely replicate the past stages of the real world but creates something different.
Evolution? Hardly. Refusal to adapt? I'll tell you where the "refusal to adapt" is -- in the creator-class that zealously clings to its privileges and crumbling exotic knowledge that is soon to be no more...
Nobody has to stand outside cranking a shaft on their car engine anymore; they just turn the ignition key : )
The stubbornness and laziness is all in the precious simulated divas, clinging to their lost world...
People in SL this very moment are already have the freedom to create and at different levels...texture artist create textures and clothing, prim builders build magnificent builds, scripters script, sculpty creators create sculpted prims (mainly in OMG external programs! Cut to next scene). Its not magic or alchemy we're talking about...its mesh. Right now in SL there are mesh groups for practically every 3D app available...and they help each other learn or solve problems. Anyone in SL can join these mystical scary groups...and..um...learn if they choose to. I've almost never met an amateur 3D creator who wasn't happy to share what they knew. Everyone is free to create with easily accessible tools if they choose to learn themand yes this includes prim building... but let me once again mention Blender...oh and Google Sketchup...golly they're free along with plenty more. Personally I'd say you're afraid of shadows and theres no real substance to your argument. You want to build with prims by all means continue to do so...no-one is taking them away or twisting your arm to learn mesh. Because something is made with prims doesn't mean its any less valid or spectacular than a sculpted prim or mesh. I've seem some awesome prim builds in SL.
You're right nobody has to crank their car anymore...I just fail to see how that's relevant.
And its your right to be a simulated diva or too stubborn or too lazy to learn something new but that is your choice and the choice of any person with free will...just ask any two year old who's learned to say, "NO!" and throw a temper tantrum.
Mesh isn't progress, as has been stated its old news by now and its like anything else...its a skill anyone can learn if they choose to do so. I'm self taught and frankly I don't know 1/4 of what 3DS Max can do because I only learned what I needed to learn to accomplish the things I wanted to do.
The simple fact is you and a few others have drawn your battle lines, entrenched deeply and no amount of discussion on this subject will change your mind. I'd love to have a real conversation but all you seem to be able to do is toss out the same old arguments.
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Those are some very real concerns about who can see meshes but I'm pretty sure mesh will be incorporated into third party viewers pretty quickly. I myself prefer the Phoneix viewer and only use the beta test version of viewer 2 on the testing grid and even then its a big frustration for me to work with it and I have no plans to use viewer 2 personally.
As far as anyone wearing a rigged mesh avatar, most will be using the alpha layers to hide the avatar so if someone is on a viewer that doesn't support mesh they will see the prim parts and the little pyramids of the unrezzed mesh.
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I really think its well worth the time to learn to build as much as you can with standard prims Sage. There will always be a place for prims in SL and in a lot of cases they'll still be the dominant building method with a sprinkling of sculpted prims or mesh mixed in for extra detailing. If you rely solely on mesh or sculpted prims you won't be as effective as a builder compared to someone who can work with all three.
With mesh as it currently is possible to texture a mesh in SL, and I see no reason LL would change this, you can apply textures to your mesh after you import it. You simply drag your texture onto the mesh just as you would a standard prim and it covers the area you assigned a texture to in the 3d app. For example if I create an eight sided cylinder in 3DS Max and assign a different texture to all ten faces (8 sides plus top and bottom) when I import the cylinder into SL it remembers the ten texture assignments. So dragging a texture onto one face only applies a the texture to that face.
As far as avatars I've already seen one full body avatar on the test grid...a purple and yellow alien and it looked really good. The furries are going to love mesh import when full body furry avatars start showing up. lol
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For your information Viv 3DS Max is one of those big programs that professional users often learn specialized portions of. One person might create and rig the mesh then hand it off to the texturer who unwraps and textures it who hands it off to an animator and so on. The problem is you like to present yourself as an authority on a subject you know little about. Remember Viv, watching Toy Story does not make you an expert on 3D. As I said...I learned what I needed to learn for the things I wanted to do. As I need to learn new things I pull out my books, research online and start doing practice lessons and tutorials. Of course its not impossible to learn everything about Max but I fail to see how it helps me to learn the parts I'll never use.
You seriously want a Sybian in 3D? Piece of cake...give me 45 minutes and you'll have one fully UVW mapped with custom hand made textures...maybe it would help you relax a bit.
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Next Steps for Mesh Import
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A group blog by Secondlife in General
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Wow, by the time the comment box loaded, Jennifur has already answered your question on scale. As for Zbrush, I've been converting the .obj files to .dae in Blender. However, there are other free programs that can convert, such as Mesh Lab, DazStudio and Wings 3D (not 100% positive on this one).
I will note that I tried just converting my sculpt objects straight into .dae just to experiment on the Mesh SIMs. As I suspected, in most cases the sculpt resolutions were larger than they needed to be. So, I'll really need to rebuild them specifically to be low polygon and re-map them. My objects are clothing items and props so this might not apply to landscapes.
I know Wings 3D doesn't export in .dae because Tiberious was showing me some of this meshes this morning and said he was running them through Blender to export as .dae.
Toysoldier I agree totally with Ashasekayi about the sculpties.