Jennifur Vultee

I've tried SketchUp before and it seems pretty basic...I want to, in the end, make things similar to the avatars and clothes and such that are currently on Renderosity. But, I don't have any idea how long it might take to get to that level of skill (anyone know?) I meant people who will be in SL to help people learn and continue learning mesh creation on an ongoing basis but thank you for your post and for your IM offer. Avatars and clothing are really advanced skills, vertex weighting or rigging a mesh as its also known (so that the mesh moves properly with the skeleton) is probably more art than science...small adjustments can greatly affect how things move. I've worked in Max for almost four years and I still struggle with rigging a mesh, but some people do pick it up easier than others. Blender has a download for Mac OS X http://www.blender.org/download/get-blender/

As a content creator for IMVU you won't get very far unless you have a license for 3ds Max. That's the only building tool they officially support. While its true Max is the only fully officially supported 3D app for IMVU, Google Sketchup has semi official support in an IMVU supplied Cal3D converter, a user developed Sketchup converter has pretty much replaced the official one though. Blender 2.45 though not officially supported is widely used and is now capable to do most thing 3DS Max can for IMVU since it can export in the proper IMVU Cal3D formats. IMVU uses its own version of the Cal3D exporter which differs slightly from the standard Cal3D plugin.

There are groups that cover just about any 3D program you can use, for example if you plan to use Blender search groups for Blender and you should find plenty. Mesh Dev is a group for mesh creators. I find video tutorials are really good for how I learn...its almost like having a tutor who can walk you through the steps and repeat the parts you need to go over again. As far as mesh making being mathematical I find it very visual actually..its almost like drawing to me.

What sort of 'content creators ' were invited to test the beta anyway ? Inexperienced users who've never made a sculptie ? Actually yes...some of the beta testers have no prior use of 3D software. The beta testers range from those new to 3D mesh creation to those with years of experience. The idea was to include a range of people so it could be tested with a users of various skill levels.

Rubbish. I can make sculpts,prims, mesh. It´s not about learning. I dislike the way LL handles Mesh, and i HATE this damned arrogance they obviously like, but no one else but them likes. How can you dislike the way LL handles mesh when you havn't even seen yet? Its like a two year old complaining they hate some food they've never tried.

Jennifer I must admit Im curious about that train youre building ...I didnt read the full post because theres just so much now...but how much did that complex looking bit of software with the various diagrams of the train cost... Have I interpreted proprely you imported a picture of a locomotive and then just copied the info into the software ? Or did you have to draw the picture of the train first ? Dont you need to know all the dimensions of your train or do you import the info you create on that software and then 'texture' prims with the details which you then stretch to size ?? The software is 3DS Max 8 which was $3500, its an older version but it still does what I need it to and I don't neccesarily feel the need to upgrade to the latest version for the latest fancy tools. The reference image is applied to a plane I created in the viewport and resized to match the dimentions of the original image...in this case a single reference image of the train I downloaded from a train modeling site (plastic scratch built trains). And yes because I was working from a single reference image I had to interperate things like width...its generally better to work from a 3 or 4 reference plane setup like the image below of a car I'll be working on. The primitive objects can be rescaled, rotated, moved on the object or vertice level to modify their shape. Modifiers can also be applied such as twist, bend, melt, relax, smooth, optimize (I don't reccomend it because it gives unpredictable results), vertex paint, skew and many more for various operations. There are many more modifiers I just listed a few of the more common ones. Modeling can be done as Editable Mesh, Editable Polygon (which I tend to mostly use), Splines, NURBS or Editable Patch. Objects can be cloned as clones or instances (these reflect changes to the original object that has been cloned). Vertices or polys may be extruded, extruded from a hinge (polygons), vertices can be deletes as can polys, by selecting the border of a deleted poly a hole can be capped. I have the option to work with Vertices, Edges, Borders, Polygons or the entire Element (good for selecting and modifying attached sub meshes). Vertices and edges can be split or welded among various other operations. For texturing I typically apply a grid texture to ensure I minimize texture stretching then add a UVW Unwrap modifier to the stack and begin unwrapping the model to create a UVW texture template. While working in the UVW editor I can precisely control texture stretch by moving and rescaling individual polygons if I need to. I can break up parts or weld them together, I can overlap similar parts so they only need to be textured once and save space on the UVW map. Below you see the resulting UVW map for the steam engine, it took eight hours to lay out the UVW map. The original size of the UVW map was 1024x1024. Texture created from the UVW map: The finished steam engine in SL:

Oh Jennifur I suddenly realised do you have to be one of this select group to try ou making these meshes ?? Currently mesh is still in closed beta but I suspect that it will be going to open beta soon. Honestly my best guess is sometime in October the open beta will begin but don't quote that as accurate...I have no firm dates from any representative of LL.

Thanks for the concise reply I expected from someone who started arguing instead, I imagine he simply couldnt comprehend my point of view like a few others... at least you understand where Im coming from... So if I wanted ago myself without paying cash what would you recommend do you have a link to the software...? Im beginning to think if the likes of some of the people here can manage to make these meshes it might not be so complex after all.... I've personally tried the apps listed below so I know a little about them. If you want to try free software the top of my list for an application that can do it all has to be Blender. Its user interface is arguably one of the harder ones to learn. Its every bit as good as Max, Maya or Lightwave for SL. http://www.blender.org/ Wings 3D is a good little 3D app with basic modeling capabilities compared to some of the more powerful apps. The Wings 3D site indicates it can export as Collada. http://www.wings3d.com/ Google Sketchup is deceptively simple looking and relatively easy to learn...I've seen some very detailed meshes exported from Sketchup. http://sketchup.google.com/ I'm sure someone can reccomend other free programs.

Choice of software to be used was left to the beta testers. To my knowledge none was recomended...it was basically BYOS - bring your own software. They needed to see what worked and what didn't...at least one beta tester I've talked to is using the workaround I mentioned in my previous post. His software doesn't support .dae export so he runs it through Blender before importing it to SL. Its those sorts of creative workarounds that allow the widest possible range of 3D apps to be used.

whats going to happen whenLindens start a recommended list of third party mesh software are they going to reccomend expensive software free software arent they going to give any guidance I thought that allusion was simple... And if I want to build with more shapes which I do is the only alternative to learn how to use meshes... my argument is simple Lindens should be providing better in world building tools that everyone is going to have the ability t use.. assuming they were building inworld in the firsst place... Any 3D app capable of exporting a .dae file is fair game to use...that's about the extent of the recomendations you'll hear from LL. And honestly even if the chosen 3D app doesn't export .dae but can export.obj it can still be used...the .obj being imported into a program such as Blender then exported as .dae. I my long reply earlier today I was attempting to show you some of the complexities of working in 3D...the tools and building methods I touched on were truly but a fraction of what you'll find in even the most basic 3D app. To expect that LL could or would add that sort of inworld building tool is asking a bit much in my opinion. Yes, the mesh viewer can preview a mesh...but that's a far cry from manipulating it in a fashion that even resembles editing it. I do agree that the inworld building system need a bit of an overhaul...for example being able to do multiple cuts into a prim on all three axis or hollow a prim from all three axis would be nice. There's not really a lot of new shapes that could be added...the ones you get now are pretty standard 3D primitives.

Mael... Its clear from the cost and power of 3D software that Jennifur uses, and clearly her professional/technical depth of experience in mesh model development that she is in a completely different league of creator than 99% of the rest of SL creators an builders within SL. I bow my head to her for the skills she possesses and it not hard to see with her "commercial" classed talents, that she has done $ well for herself AND this emerging MESH within SL is like a golden goose for her in new opportunities. BUT, like I said, for like 99% of the rest of us builders within SL, we are no where near as close to her talents, experience, and level of commitment to Mesh development and resale. I would like to see 5 other creators of SL here put up their hands that have purchase ANY out-of-world tool for $3000+ (i dont care if you paid for it new or used). I personally thought that I spent the wad when I bought Zbrush for $600 because I thought it would speed up and simplify sculpty creations for me in SL (which it surely did). Also, just listening to how Jennifur explained to you how she made the locomotive honestly made my head spin. And I have been using blender and zbrush now for over a year. She lost me on a lot of her terms. When she talks about how she creates Meshes.. she says it to us like this is all just simply childs play and we will grasp it in a short time as soon as we are allowed access to this mesh beta. WRONG! Sorry Jennifur, with the exception of a very small percentage of talented - commercial - artists and 3D modeling experts... this is not simple SL building techniques. Jennifur and Qui and a few others will be HUGE WINNERS in SL in selling some amazing meshes. But they are not the norm. It would be nice to know that the closed beta has members that were AVERAGE JOE scuplty makers like me or the vast majority of other sculpty makers. It likely would have exposed a lot more SL logistical issues for SL to deal with when releasing meshes into SL. So... I am hoping that tools like Blender and even my Zbrush (which now looks peanuts compared to the massive commercial power tools Jennifur has been using) will be good enough to create some average meshes that we can create and sell without making our heads explode with over complexity. PS.... Jennifur, this is not insult to you... its clear now that you are an amazingly talented professional mesh creator and artist. and sorry for my first slam at you this week with your suggetion on mesh size limits of 10x10x10 being an opportunity. Although it was clearly not a feasible solution you offered, I should not have slammed you. You do have to remember and think twice though when you are talking to the rest of us Sculpty Creators - most of us are not in your league and what you think is childs play - is rocket science to 90%+ of the rest of us. I'm far from being a professional with my software but I do love working in 3D. I do make money off the things I've made on IMVU but I also run a fairly busy clothing shop in SL that takes up a lot of my time. I can make sculpted prims, but generally only to so when I need something...I'll probably do the same with mesh. At this point I have no plans to start pumping out meshes like candy for sale...I'm just too busy. But I do love creating meshes as a hobby. Will I sell the odd mesh now and then...I'm sure I will just like I sell one set of sculpted prims. If you tried to explain the terms and methods of working in ZBrush I doubt I'd understand much of what you said either...I get some of what Blenders users say and a lot of what a Maya users say. Different programs, different tools different terminology. Zbrush is a powerful tool...it can do things Max can't but you have to know your software to create anything and in a lot of cases its not the tool but the skill of the operator that determines results. I tried a Zbrush demo...I made what looked like bubbled silver paint and understood little of the terms or how it functions. I can't do squat in Blender either, it truley confuses me to no end so I have a lot of respect for anyone who does use it. And its not just people with expensive programs that will be making great meshes...Timmi Allen uses Blender and he blows me away with his work...its beautiful. In case you missed the link above here it is again...check out his race cars, museum and merry-go-round. And I'll say it again...most of the beta testers are using Blender and doing fabulous meshes. If I had to pick one 3D app to bet on as the dominate force in the SL mesh...I'd put my money on the Blender users dominating. People like me and you with programs costing hundreds or thousands of dollars are the minority. http://www.flickr.com/groups/secondlife3dmesh/pool/ I never said it was a simple way to build...it took me the better part of a year to get to a level in Max where I could do most of the things I wanted to...and not always well. I'll be the first to admit it can be damned hard to learn but once you learn it opens up a world of creative options. But I still say anyone with the determination and patients canlearn if they choose to. But then I still struggle with the limitations of sculpted prims...to me its like working with one hand tied behind your back. Prim building takes skilland time to master...I'd consider myself an intermediate prim builder...I can do what I want generally. Think of all the badly built buildings you've seen in SL with overlapping texture flickering prims. And thank you for the appology...it was a solution that works for me...I thought it might work for you as well, if not it wasn't meant to be the only possible solution available. The time I spend here is my volunteer time...its me trying to answer questions and help as best I can. I don't always have the right answers but I try.

None of the meshes on the Blender page are likely to ever come to SL even if the original creators were SL residents...the meshes are just too high poly for real time rendering. You want photorealistic meshes that's going to be way more polygons than a real time rendering engine like SL's can handle. Mesh size limits are currently going to be set at 64x64x64m...there's no promises from the Lindens but the 64m limit may also be applied to standard prims as well. If you're hoping for inworld mesh creations tools I wouldn't count on it if I were you.

Give me a sec Im still gasping at the thought of paying 3500 to build............ is somebody going to show me something good done with cheap software...very cheap... no wonder theres no talk of Lindens providing in world mesh building tools !!!!! Practically everything on the link below was made in Blender, except for my meshes. Prolly 80-90% of the beta testers I've talked to use Blender...one I've talked to uses Wings 3D and another I've talked to uses Maya. Timmi Allen's Blender mesh/texture work are particularly good. http://www.flickr.com/groups/secondlife3dmesh/pool/

Your reference looks more like a car lol (I know, its just a confusion, but its funny ). Im waiting for the open beta D: icant wait anymore!! how long they take to put it available for alls? Nice demostration Jennifur ^^ The reference is a car. lol I was using that an an example of hoe the reference planes should be set up. The public beta should be very soon...we haven't been given a date but its looking like its close.

Scoll up three posts.

My tier is $195 a month for a mainland sim plus my annual membership of $72...my inworld shop pays for it.

Yes $3500, 3DS Max isn't cheap, I bought almost four years ago that's why its not up to date. If you aren't familiar with 3D apps 3D Studio Max, Maya and Lightwave are the of the industry sandards for movie/television CGI as well as games and 3D movies. They're profesional software that comes with a hefty price tag. Both 3DS Max and Maya currently cost $3500 and are available from Autodesk. Lightwave is currenly selling for $1000. From what I understand Blender is gaining some ground in the gamming industry and for some indipendent films. The plans for the car came from a web site that has free plans for both 3D and plastic model builders. Oh and before I forget and Viv snickers and tries to make fun of me for spending $3500 on software that I'll never earn back....3DS Max has paid for itself a few times over now with my IMVU products.

Hey Maggie ^^. Here's a lil light reading for you. The Feted Inner Core (also known as the Fetid Inner Core) is a conspiracy theory that exists among certain players of the computer game Second Life. It argues that certain groups of players use their relationship with the staff of Linden Lab, the game providers, to obtain favours that advantage their in-game businesses at the disadvantage of others. Since businesses within Second Life can be run for real-world money - the game's currency, Linden dollars, has a maintained exchange rate with the US dollar - this is considered a significant danger. The majority of players of Second Life are unaware of the existence of the theory; many others believe that it is simply incorrect. Some believe that some players are favoured by Linden Lab but have earned this through hard work and providing good services; others acknowledge this but still considered it to be a bad thing on the grounds that favouring those who have worked hard in the past may discourage others from working hard in the future (since the favours are already gone). Others believe it to be literally correct. Some players are offended by it, and some satiricially embrace it; a "FIC" website has been created bearing a logo, and badges showing the logo have been worn by some players in-game and displayed at some invents. The term Feted Inner Core was coined by Prokofy Neva, who later denied that it was a conspiracy theory, claiming instead that it referred to a collection of phenomena that arose naturally from human group behaviour rather than a deliberate decision to conspire. Example allegations The most common allegation of FIC is to do with placement in Second Life's external publicity; this was the original meaning of the Feted part of Feted Inner Core. Detractors argue that this grants a publicity advantage to the placed person's business that is unbeatable by any in-game means. Linden Lab have begun to operate an application system allowing any player to apply to be included in external publicity, but controversy still exists over images shown on the game's website, for which no clear selection process has been given. Defenders argue that images on the website are not significant publicity since the website is rarely visited by actual participants of the game. The second most common allegation is to do with provision of services requested by external agents. The most infamous case was one in which a contract for a large US dollar fee for the construction of an in-world area for the Wells Fargo bank was awarded directly to an existing building group rather than being available for anyone else. Defenders argue that this was necessary since going through a tender process would have slowed down Linden Lab's ability to fulfill Wells Fargo's request. Further allegations are raised with respect to grid-wide services, such as the InfoNet information distribution system, which was bought by Linden Lab from a private business within the game. Original article here: http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2006/03/ficopedia.html

I'm not at all assuming everyone would want a mesh avatar (which is funny to say because the SL avatar is mesh), I was just using it as an example. Rigged or simply attached avatar attachments should actually reduce ARC and lag because compared to a sculpted or prim avatar they are a lot lower polygon. The frames rates are very good Mondays mesh meeting had six mesh avatars at it and frame rates never took a hit and they were all moving around at the same time a few times. I didn't see one I'd refer to as a WoW avatar...they're all very creative and unique that I've seen. I understand your concerns Ann, I really do, but in my practical exsperience on the beta grid its been that things typically run smoother with mesh attachments/avatars than with prim/sculpted prim attatchments/avatars. I hope you understand that I'm not trying to dismiss your concerns or minimize them in any way.

I've seen them on the beta grid, on the mesh sims. I've seen some pretty cool ones and they always have an avatar rendering cost far below the standard SL avatars.

I have news for you lol. Mesh is going to increase complexity of worn attachments unless LL nerfs attachments resulting in lawsuits and worse. Ann mesh attachments should actually reduce overall rendering costs. I've seen entire mesh avatars reporting rendering costs under 50.

"IMVU is part of the reason I bought 3DS Max" Oh really????? Didn´t Anshe want you? WOW. I'm still a content creator on IMVU for your information...I guess when all else fails slam the succesful people. Like it or not Anshe is a succesful business woman who has made her living from virtual worlds.

Masami has no clue, anyway. if her attitude would be somehow serious, she´d be at IMVU for uploading meshes and sell them. But no, she will not, cause Anshe won´t let her upload whatever she wants to upload. Which might be a wise decision. Linden Lab never was known for wisdom. Really? Seriously Really? Anshe never once stopped me or anyone else from uploading a mesh to IMVU. IMVU is part of the reason I bought 3DS Max...I saw the things people were creating and wanted to make my own content. You're arguments really are grasping at straws. The rest of your post just amounts to a steaming pile of BS...I've seem some beautiful mesh work done by amateur 3D artists on IMVU, the beta grid and on 3D forums.

Another downside is that one of the most wonderful things about SL is that anyone that wants to can learn to build because it's so easy with prims. I gradual conversion to mesh will separate content creators into two categories, those that can create with mesh and those that don't have the skills to. I don't know, to me this just seems unfair to those that have been creating with prims for years, they either have to redo everything they've ever built, trash it and start over or go to the back of the line to make way for a whole lot of new creators that will come in that have years of experience with mesh and can now capitalize on it in SL for the first time. Granted, there are some creators that are already here, that know how to do it and won't be harmed by this at all, but we can bet when the word gets out that SL now has mesh that there will be a huge influx of new high end creators joining. New creators is a good thing, but not so sure it's in the best interest of those who have been building in SL for many years, who have a lot of blood, sweat and money wrapped up in their inventory products. I guess we'll have to see what happens and I think I'd better start watching Blender Tutorials... You're completely ignoring the fact that most sculpted prims are created by the same people that will be creating mesh. The exact same argument could have ben used when sculpted prims were introduced...and probably was. Lets change mesh to sculpted prims: "Another downside is that one of the most wonderful things about SL is that anyone that wants to can learn to build because it's so easy with prims. I gradual conversion to mesh will separate content creators into two categories, those that can create with sculpted prims and those that don't have the skills to. I don't know, to me this just seems unfair to those that have been creating with prims for years, they either have to redo everything they've ever built, trash it and start over or go to the back of the line to make way for a whole lot of new creators that will come in that have years of experience with sculpted prims and can now capitalize on it in SL for the first time. Granted, there are some creators that are already here, that know how to do it and won't be harmed by this at all, but we can bet when the word gets out that SL now has mesh that there will be a huge influx of new high end creators joining. New creators is a good thing, but not so sure it's in the best interest of those who have been building in SL for many years, who have a lot of blood, sweat and money wrapped up in their inventory products. I guess we'll have to see what happens and I think I'd better start watching Blender Tutorials..." Just like sculpted prims before them meshes are in no way going to totally replace standard prim building. Will they most likely have a bigger impact on SL ...probably but anyone who solely relies on mesh for everything won't be building to their full potential in SL. SL was and still is built on the prim.

Aren't Mesh testers also using a special viewer? Yes.