[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

1 hour ago, Kristin Linden said:

Unfortunately that's not in my wheelhouse as I'm not involved in the dev side of things, but you're more than welcome to file a feature request through JIRA.

If you have never filed a feature request, we have a handy dandy Knowledgebase page that will walk you through the process:

 

Alright thanks, I went ahead and made a JIRA new feature request.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

19 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The Linden response is not from the Lindens that specialize in land and land development.  Not all Lindens are experts in everything.   Testing shows your assumptions are wrong.  Zoha will explain how they can assign estate manager options on ONLY the region a renter "owns". Since they are in the land business, I will take their explanation as facts.

.....so we're moving the goalposts and now apparently the lindens themselves must be mistaken because they're not the *right kind* of lindens, rather than considering *maybe* you're mistaken.
Ok.

 

This discussion serves no purpose if this is the circle it's going to go on.
Good luck to you all. Thankfully there are some reasonable and rational people here actually talking about things and I have faith the conversation will ultimately be benefitted by those people.
I'd hoped we could discuss it first to find something we all feel would be great to see, but this doesn't feel like this kind of discussion is going to happen, so I'll go ahead and make the JIRA request myself.

Take care all.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

Just now, belindacarson said:

You're still posting incorrect information, including claiming you can scan for a user's HUD attachments which simply isn't possible.

So other users, like me, are having to post conflicting posts by yourself where we have tested our information and found it to be correct so that we are giving users the correct information so that they can make a fully informed decision, without referring to your post that leads them to incorrect information that can wrongly lead them to the wrong conclusions, whereas giving them the correct information (such as i posted) can lead them to make the correct, informed decisions as they have the actual, correct facts in front of them.

Beli, for god's sake. I have corrected that misremembering of mine from 10 years ago *THREE* times now.
But even then, just because I misremembered a detail from 10 years ago, does not mean you should be outright ignoring even what the lindens say.

Things are not that black and white.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

Quote

It is frankly ridiculous to think a land baron owning 1000 full private regions, can can only flip the bot flag on all 1000 regions.

Yes it is rediculous, but that's what has just been confirmed and I think we all agree we'd like this to be applyable for regions too. If you're not even going to listen to actual lindens on this now, there is no point in this discussion because you aren't listening to actual things that actual staff are bringing to the thread and this is going to go nowhere. Lets try have an actual discussion.

 

Also

Estate Manager is not the same thing as Region Owner.

Region Owner gives *ontop of EM access* abilities to control other things, such as the RAW that is used for the terrain map.
While EMs have terraforming permissions, they do *not* have the ability to bake, download or upload RAWS. This is limited to RO.

Zoha is offering you *EM* rights there, not *RO* rights.

This appears to be the source of the confusion so let me repeat this in clear not uncertain terms.

Estate Manager is NOT the same as Region Owner.
Region Owner is inbetween the permissions of Estate Manager and Estate Owner.

You can be assigned to an EM position of a region by the Region Owner.

Some barons give RO permissions *and* EM permissions, some ONLY give EM permissions.

Region Owner has access to some permissions that EM does not. (RAWs for example)

You can be an EM of one, multiple or all regions within an Estate.

Please consider, if your own understanding is conflicting with information given by the lindens themselves, it is possible that your own understanding may be mistaken or the method by which you tested may be mistaken, or you may be misunderstanding what is being said.

But all that aside, that's not what we're talking about (or trying to, but this is getting very noisy static on the line)
What is being said, is that because there is no region level setting for this in the backend, this ends up solely an estate wide permission (as the lindens themselves have confirmed). The result of this is that in the case of mega-estates like those of land barons that rent out full regions (and give EITHER EM OR RO OR BOTH), that these regions are unable to apply deny_bots without it affecting the entire region.

I understand some people here are very attached to their positions, but we've had linden confirmation of this, can we please move forwards on this and discuss ideas for a feature we can suggest on the JIRA that will allow the vast amount of private islands that are baron owned, to also be able to choose to deny_bots without having to convince an estate owner to apply this to the hundreds of regions they own, as in most cases an EO would generally refuse to do this due to the different needs of their customers, leaving these regions as a result unable to ban bots.

 

 

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

6 minutes ago, Kristin Linden said:

Hey folks!

I see there's a bit of confusion about the deny_bots flag and how it's available. This is an Estate Level access flag. You can find more information about this in our blog where it was announced:

Please keep in mind that if you only own 1 Private Region, that is considered an Estate on it's own - and you will be able to set any estate level flags as appropriate.

You can also check out our Scripted Agent Estate Access FAQ for more detailed information on how it works:

https://lindenlab.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/31000169561-scripted-agent-estate-access-faq

I hope this clears things up for y'all!

Thank you!
Yeah that clears it up, we appreciate it!

Ok so we do then have an implementation gap for private island regions where the estate owner is a land baron where the renting resident (Be they EM or Region Owner) is unable to implement the flag individually on the region.

Kristin, how viable would it be to add an additional region level deny_bots flag (of course an Estate level enabled flag would override the region level disabled flag)?

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

Just now, belindacarson said:

oh, there's no hostility, or your questions ignored/distorted.

 

If you feel that you've misunderstood (or triggered by being corrected) your posting of incorrect information, including claiming to be able to scan for HUD attachments, which simply isn't possible, as opposed to my preferring to post correct information, then that's your choice of course.

 

I just prefer to see users provided with correct information.

Last post out of me in this sub-thread Beli.
Please actually read responses from Quartz?
This is getting silly. Ok thats all you get out of me now.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

5 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

You could go to the SL website, change one of your alts to "scripted agent", then see if they can get to your region. Caveat: There may be a delay in setting the alt's scripted agent status and when it actually takes effect in world.

As I understand based on my reading of the setting and Quartz's posts estate-wide setting would be reflected, but we were seeing about cases where an estate *does not* have the setting, but a *region owner* who is *not* the estate owner, would be able to set deny_bots on the region they have RO rights too.

Which unless I'm mistaken, I think Ayashe is talking about the typical usecase, where all renters are EMs of their own region, instead of being ROs.

What we were asking/talking about was if deny_bots can be enabled on an individual region inside an estate, without it being on the entire estate. That's what we reached out to ask/confirm.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

5 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

There's no confusion.

 

My answers are prompted by things I have tested, and please feel free to test these things yourself.

Just for the sake of clarity: I rent a homestead, I have Estate manager rights, I was able to toggle no-bots on/off via the LL viewer despite the Estate owner setting it globally, it applied to my homestead only, I had a friend with a registered bot (a store bot) test this out for me, so that I could provide correct information to users.

It saves on posting incorrect information, including claiming you can scan for HUD attachments which simply isn't possible.

 

Please, feel free to test this yourself, and correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm just going to start ignoring you at this point, I'm sorry but I've tried in good faith to talk with you about this multiple times and it's just being met with hostility and my actual question ignored/distorted each time.
 

I don't feel there is a good faith exchange going on so it's better we leave it there.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

4 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

I'm trying to get a definitive answer, but I'm an estate manager for several Linden estates and, in the latest Official Viewer, I can see a setting on the Estate tab of World>Region/Estate that would let me ban or allow bots over the whole estate 

However, I can't see anything similar on any of the region settings that would allow me to override the Estate setting other than by allowing/banning named bots on particular regions.

This leads me to think it really is an estate-wide setting.

Thank you for the confirmation Quartz, we appreciate it and we appreciate you going the extra mile to reach out and double check with other staff.

(ok now I need to dip out before the store closes)

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

1 minute ago, M Peccable said:

The wording of the official release says you can add whitelisted bots to the estate's allowed list, not the region's whitelist.

 

Oops, good catch, edited what I wrote to make sure I'm confirming it correctly.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

Just now, belindacarson said:

The setting is estate wide, but as stated, can be over ridden by a person who has EM rights on a sim that they rent.  Equally that person with EM rights can whitelist a "bot" at the estate level regardless of setting (and yes, I've tested this xD).  I love correct information, as it gives users an honest and correct set of info to make their own choices with.

Can you please just let quartz reply instead of answering for him about his own post, so we don't create further confusion in either direction be it my own or yours?

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

6 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

As far as I know, it's an estate setting, though you can, of course, allow individual scripted agents access to particular regions by adding them to the allowed list.   

I've messaged someone who will know for sure, though, and will update this post if it turns out I'm mistaken.

Thank you quartz!
Ok so if we're understanding your reply *to your current understanding pending a response from another at person LL*,

The setting is estate wide, but individual bots can be added to an estate's allow list?
But the deny_bots flag itself is estate wide?

Just to make sure we're understanding right (pending the confirmation of course)

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

1 minute ago, belindacarson said:

That's of no worry to me since I've posted correct information to hopefully try and reassure anybody who saw your incorrect information including your claim to be able to scan for HUD attachments.

I thought I already said it was 10 years ago and cut me some slack on misremembering a detail, like I told you we scanned for something so it was probably teeth instead. Is that really why you're jumping on this so hard?

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

5 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

But I *am* correct.

if you feel you need somebody to confirm this, then that's up to you.

 

Ok that's great, hopefully you are right, I would like that to be the case.
There is no sarcasm here whatsoever, I genuinely do hope that is the case and we can be happy together if we get clarification!

I do appreciate your input, but I would like to hear confirmation of that from LL themselves considering the potential scale of the affected scope of regions.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I do think we need a clarification from above on whether this can be applied on a region-by-region basis; we're spinning our wheels at the moment.

Not sure which Linden fronted this part of the equation, but I'm sure @Quartz Molecan find out for us. And of course earn our eternal gratitude  . . .

We specifically need to know if the deny_bots flag can exist on a region independently of the setting on the estate as a whole. (Obviously though deny_bots on an estate, would apply to all regions.)
As in if an estate can *not* have deny_bots enabled, and a region *can* have it enabled at a backend level rather than just asuming it is, because unlike other things, we don't see this mirrored at a region setting and Estate setting like we usually do in the floater.

(Which I think is where Beli's position is coming from)

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

Either way I got to go to the store, hopefully we get a response.
Good luck Scylla

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

1 minute ago, belindacarson said:

But you are still posting incorrect information, whereas I chose to post correct information.

 

That is what causes people to react.  The whole bot situation is giving some people (not me personally) issues, so by giving correct information, it helps to ease these concerns.

For petes sake Beli, so why are you against us getting clarification from LL themselves, don't be so attached to "being right" and lets just ask so we can clear this up? Surely it's better rather than "no I'm right vs no I'm right!"

Ideally I hope you are right, I'll be happy if you are! So lets just get that clarified, as we've already pinged to ask and lets not get caught up in some unnessecary argument about this.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

3 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

We don't need clarification.

 

I rent a homestead from an estate company, and I have EM rights on it.  The Estate Owner said they'd enabled nobots everywhere, but i chose to test it via the LL viewer, and i was able to turn it on/off on my HS, but not on any other.

 

This is how I, factually, know this.   I also saw you'd been posting incorrect information (including claiming to be able to scan for HUD attachments, which is simply not possible).  I chose to answer so that other users are getting correct information.

Yes, and I have rented and had region owner, which in the system is a permission level above EM, which gives access to covenant control, RAW control and what not.
Your experience is not universal beli. Not every baron does it the same way.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

4 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

No private land baron will give Estate Manager to regular renters. Estate Manager controls all the regions they own. I used to be an estate manager for Regent. I could go into any region they rented out, regardless of who was renting it, and change any settings I wanted.

Renters only get region level controls.

She is actually right here, you can give Estate Manager rights to a user and have it be restricted to a single region.
But this is more a name of the role than anything else. Basically no such thing as a RM exists, only EM. EM can be per region, this is an aspect of it being poorly named.

Where the disageeement is happening is Beli is asuming that means that you can only apply deny_bots to regions you are an EM for, while I'm trying to say that asumes the existence of deny_bots as not just an Estate flag but *also* a region flag *that can also be toggled independently*

If the bot access flag worked the same way as the others, she'd logicially correct because loads of other functions work like this, but said functions also typically have mirrored region level functions, while the bot control does not hence the point of potential issue because this may also be reflected in the existence of a controllable flag, rather than an inherited flag from estate level.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

4 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

Actually you don't get what I'm talking about.  If you rent a full sim/homestead, you'd get Estate Manager access (some term that region owner) so you'd be able to set no bots on/off yourself, via the region control settings yourself - regardless of how the Estate Owner sets it you could even whitelist your own bots - for that sim only.

Beli, please listen.

There are barons, big ones at that, who also give RO.
I am speaking from personal experience.

As for the other thing you are talking about, yes I know logically it would stand to reason that would be the case, but as far as we are aware, there is no deny_bots flag that exists at an individual region level, so it cant be set if it doesn't exist, even if you could for other things that exist at both levels.

That's why we're asking quartz for clarfication.
If I'm wrong on this that's fantastic, I'd be glad to hear that, but communications implies it might be the case, so we're asking quartz.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

4 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I just got worked up because I thought for a minute there, that it was just for the big owners of more than one region and not owners of one region..  That lit a wick I tell ya.. hehehe

I think you would rightfully furious if that was the case, and I would be right there with you lmao, but not what I was talking about but I can understand how that may have came across that way if you're not familiar with this.

But yes, to clarify if it helps for where I think you misunderstood that, people who purchase a region from LL, are both RO and EO of their estate and its regions, even if that is a single region and have access to deny_bots.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

6 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

An estate owner, when granting EM rights to a renter, get a prompt saying "this region or all" (or something like it), so no, they don't.  The renter get EM rights only to the sim they rent.

That doesn't actually say anything about the deny_bots flag itself.

That's just the wording on how the manager role is presented.

If no region level flag exists, then it's a mute point on if they can apply it to anything or not and that is what needs to be clarified, hence why I've gone and pinged quartz so we can hopefully get that cleared up.

Also just to clarify, there are barons who give RO rights, not just EM rights to their renters. That is the specific thing we are talking about.
 

Quote

It's been that way for years.  Try it yourself and see.

I get what you're talking about, I'm saying thats just the name they give to "EMs" who sometimes are simply "RMs". That doesn't actually say anything about the flag itself.
hence why we're getting clarification.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

4 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

it's not.

 

A user who rents a full sim/homestead from an estate company has Estate Manager rights, and can set nobots on/off regardless - on that sim they have EM rights on.

Then we need clarification on if this is a Region level function, or an Estate level function, but all the correspondance we've had from Linden Labs says it is an estate function, not region.

 

@Quartz Mole sorry to bother you, but can we have clarification on this bit in the thread to clear this up?

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I guess we need some clarification here, because I'm hearing different stories on whether an estate owner can pick and choose which regions this applies to.

It strikes me as bizarre that a really large land baron, with (for argument's sake) 100 or more regions has to choose just ONE option for all those, most of which will probably not be contiguous.

And yes, as to Ceka's point, it really does mean that much of the decision-making about this across the board is going to be in the hands of pretty darned small number of people. Democratic and empowering for most of us, it ain't.

WRE is one of the largest providrers of land in SL. They allow people who *logistically* rent Full regions and homestead from them, to have Region owner *permissions* in the system. They keep all their regions in a single mega-estate, despite all these regions being rented (owned permission wise) by different people.

WRE is not the only baron does this and this is just an example.

I personally have rented (SL permission wise owned) regions that are private islands that I have complete control over (as far as RO rights go), but do not have EO access.

The lack of an Region function, means these kinds of sims, which make up ALOT of private islands (and even resident continents) in SL, are unable to apply bot restrictions even if they want to.

Coffee is just getting get upset because she thinks I'm trying to muddy the water to serve my evil bot agenda or something and she wants to see bots entirely removed from SL and for some reason thinks that land barons will just ban bots entirely if this function doesn't exist rather than just leave it and tell ROs to figure it out themselves.

Which means less regions would ban bots, not more, so it's a little frustrating trying to clear this up while that's all going on in the replies.

[New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion]

11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ok, that's . . . dumb.

I mean when we're talking the EO level function I think it's fine.
EOs should be able to quickly apply it to all of their regions, I don't see a problem there.

It's just without an additional RO level function, it leaves a sizeable amount of private island owners unable to do the same.

 

Quote

Not really.

Regions on the same estate tend to share a border. If you allow bots on one region, then you are allowing bots on all the regions it touches regardless of that regions setting.

A bot doesn't need to be on a region to get region information or identify who is where.

This is incorrect. An estate does not have to solely contain regions that share a border, and can contain (and does often time in the case of land barons, who a lot of people get their regions from), regions that are single private islands, or their own resident continents. These people should also be able to ban bots.

It's fairly safe to asume a RO who shares several connected sims that are within an estate of a land baron, would enable this option on all their linked regions, so your concern comes across a bit disingenious and stemming from your previously mentioned hatred of bots entirely, or a good faith but misinformed assumption about region ownership that I'm trying to clear up.

But coffee, this is a bit of an own goal on your part here, because *more* people would ban bots in this case, not less. So believe it or not, we're actually both aligned here, even if you may not be realising it.