Shelenn Ayres

Thanks for your thoughts and I do not disagree at all - this applies to all virtual world technology platforms - but many exist just fine without economies. I've been involved in virtual worlds since the inception of the Web3D Consortium long before SL was even a thought in Philip's mind. But the initial questions on this thread were intended to have limited scope associated with the real world costs of living in SL with a premium account hence the reason it was created on a Linden Dollar forum. If there is a way to lock the thread as the creator of the thread, I don't know how to do that or I would just to keep it from going off topic (for those who find it via Googling).

Yes I totally agree. I don't think anyone would venture into virtual worlds unless they enjoyed it. For the case of people who are homebound or disabled to have the opportunity to be in an environment that is empowering is a good thing. There are certainly issues that keep the disabled digitally marginalized within virtual worlds because of software limitations and approaches that builders are not aware they need to take. But that is a different topic I am working on with relevant organizations. But for SL in general, as well as other virtual world technology platforms, the possibility of earning some income to offset their real world costs doing something they enjoy is even better! There are far more things that can be done other than creating things to sell in a highly competitive marketplace.

As I said before. Semantics in this conversation are associated with Linden Labs terminology versus real world terminology. n the real world, if I allow someone to use my land without paying any fee for it, I am granting them that right to do so. So I totally get the other poster's reference to the home that comes with the premium account as a land grant home. I also totally get your preference to use Linden Labs terminology as Linden Home and understand the importance of it. What I eventually share with others elsewhere will have the relevant terminology explanation to avoid confusion. I am not including any information about land costs, tiers, rentals, etc - they are outside the scope of my personal research question. This thread is supposed to be about the cost of living in SL via a premium account and was such created on a Linden Dollar forum. But all the inputs are valued I simply dismiss the insults as unintended.

This thread is not about the quality of life in SL. It is about the cost where premium accounts are concerned. This is a Linden Dollars forum.

I have no interest in trading. Only one reference was made to get yesterday's average exchange rate for the basis of analysis and discussion.

I didn't say anything about a meaningful Second Life - that is outside the scope of the questions. Simply existing in SL surely has meaning. What you are calling a project is me personally - nothing dishonest about that. Wanting to share knowledge with others who might benefit is what you call a project that is fine - but it is a good thing to share with others so they can possibly benefit as well. Perhaps us being from different cultures plays a role in your interpretation of my intent. Have a good day.

The thread is getting out of hand with some hostility and misunderstandings so I am going to post an edited summary here: I am a long time user of SL but only as one who is just existing in SL not living (having a home and spending). I want to engage in the SL economy. I want to do this in a cost effective manner. Time has value so US$ investments compared to time to earn L$ is a factor in analysis as well as premium account features. Because I intend to cashout, I want to be sure I comply also with all tax and reporting laws and not hold USD in my account "bank" that is unreported. Finally, I want to share the end result of the analysis with others who are disabled or homebound that want to engage in the SL economy in the event they find it helpful. Crowdsourcing knowledge is how we all learn from and help each other. I believed using this forum would be a good way to do that. So, first I needed to answer three basic questions then a couple of followup questions. I realize now (after reading some of the responses) that some of you who don't know me personally can easily misinterpret my intentions. I could easily have made a couple of calls to LL and gotten answers to my questions. I chose instead to be public and transparent in a reach to the community of users. I don't regret it even if it has taken far more time to do so. Thanks to everyone who participated! Here is the summary edited to include feedback from you up to the time of this post. The personal research question: What is the minimum investment needed to exist in SL, not be homeless, and have the ability to create a real income stream of USD spent outside of SL. The original three questions I formed associated with my personal research question: 1) Will my existing Linden balance before premium account upgrade be included in Lindens that can be cashed out after upgrading to a premium account? Answer: Yes 2) Where is the break even in number of Lindens to build up in my account before upgrading to premium to cover costs? Answer (assume no stipend spending): roughly L$ 18000 to start equivalent to US$72 for best value annual premium fee. 3) What is the maximum Linden amount I can cash out weekly? Answer: Other than high end producers, most have a limit equivalent to US$1999 daily with the same rolling 30 day limit. (This is per avatar and is not addressing the strategies of some to have multiple avatars earning income.) Yes I know one must gradually increase to get that limit. I never intended for the discussion on this thread to include the use case of NOT having a premium account. I welcomed it because I believe everyone's voice has value. Further discussion has led to some further conclusions (thanks for the corrections) which can shape a final approach of choices for a new user that has the research question in mind. In a nutshell, we can collectively conclude the following is true to: exist in SL, not be homeless, and have the ability to create a real income stream of USD spent outside of SL. To exist in SL, one must: Create a free account. To exist and not be homeless in SL one must: Have a home provided with a premium account (this requires ongoing known fees be paid) Buy land and a home or build a home on that land (this requires ongoing unknown fees be paid) Rent a home (this requires ongoing unknown fees be paid) OR Be "gifted" a home (someone else is paying unknown fees) To exist, not be homeless, and live (have L$ to pay fees) in SL, one must: Be gifted L$ Earn or win L$ OR Buy L$ (The premium account stipend (bought by US$) covers most of the cost of a premium account but additional L$ are still needed else more USD must be spent for the premium account.) There is concurrence that a premium account is not needed to buy and sell L$ because USD can be banked to pay fees. A verified payment method is all that is required to cashout in USD. However, to exist, not be homeless, live, and create an income stream of USD spent outside of SL, one might want to (because of its value and instant engagement in the SL economy): Signup for a premium account (best value is annual payment at US$6/mth). Premium accounts come with L$1300/mth stipend plus a Linden Home where the land it sits on is a "grant" meaning no extra fee. So, for a premium account from the original thought, this either requires one to: Find a way to be gifted, earn, win, or buy around L$18000 as an investment to start then be on the hook to be gifted, earn, win, or buy another L$18000 to cover the upcoming annual fee OR Invest US$144 (starting year and upcoming year) then work to be gifted, earn, win, or buy at least L$300/mth to sustain existence with more to live and create an income spent outside of SL Which approach I take is not relevant to any approach another takes. But, since all of this information is not clearly presented on any SL webpage that I could find, I believe the discussion was beneficial because it provides more information for new users to consider and not be dependent on "guessing their way around". All of the comments, feedback, and advice here are valued tyvm! We all have different goals for existence and living in virtual worlds. This was a fun way (for me) to analyze and get advice for helping new disabled or homebound users get started down a path to create a real income stream to pay real world bills. Some of the comments here appear quite hostile but I believe those to be associated with misunderstandings - no ill will from me. Have a great weekend!

You still need L$. When I say gifted I mean someone else is paying the fees. Someone else referred to the home that comes with the premium account as a land grant. Technically, the premium page calls them Linden Homes. I believe the other person used the term land grant correctly because Linden is granting the land these homes sit on and not requiring fees for the land as required elsewhere. Let's not get caught up in semantics I don't understand the hostility.

Not true. I personally wanted to know the answers to the three questions for myself as a longtime user of SL planning to participate in the economy. I was looking for 3 answers: yes or no to question 1 and numerical L$ values for questions 2 and 3. But I also do a lot of work in virtual worlds associated with empowering disabled and homebound users in other technologies so it is a natural extension to posit a research question and provide the same analysis for others to benefit from. As an engineer and researcher, analysis is just part of my approach to life If others can benefit that is a great result IMO.

Part of research analysis is what some call overthinking. I like to consider all the pros and cons of every aspect. The question was not just associated with the things you mentioned but good to know a premium account is not required to cashout. However, there is far more involved in the use case where the benefits of a premium account can be advantageous. No matter what, to do anything in SL other than go to events, explore, build in the SB, or make friends, one needs L$ unless someone else is paying for everything for them. Spending L$ is what I call participating in the economy aka living in SL.

Because this is a discussion and I want to be sure anyone who responds is acknowledged, I quote each separately. Yes I realize some of the answers given have redundancy (this is a good thing to have concurrence). My comment about being able to pay using Lindens specifically refers to the situation posed by another where a premium account is not used and therefore not related to 1099 reporting requirements. In that comment, we were discussing being able to sell Lindens without having a premium account while my comments back and forth with you are with regard to using a premium account. I found the default sort filter for the forum makes it more difficult to follow the convo so I changed mine to sort by date. Thanks to everyone who participates! I really appreciate the sharing of information and wisdom. I truly did not expect this thread to evolve beyond the three answers I was looking for (yes or no), (numerical L$), (numerical L$) and related followup regarding limits. But it's been a great share of knowledge! The original three questions have been explained to be part of an analysis to answer the basic question of "What is the minimum investment needed to exist in SL, not be homeless, and have the ability to create a real income stream." The goal in answering these questions is to present the analysis to new users who do not have the option to leave home to work - specifically, but not limited to, people with disabilities. While it is true that it is possible to earn without buying L$ and eventually have a home, this analysis was based on initial USD investment to bypass the time it takes to earn L$ and have an established revenue stream to pay ongoing fees. I did not go into the details of why I was asking the questions in hopes of avoiding long conversations but c'est la vie I will engage in the economy but I wanted to do more than that. My plan is to share information with others who are disabled like myself. The research question: What is the minimum investment needed to exist in SL, not be homeless, and have the ability to create a real income stream of USD spent outside of SL. The original three questions associated with the research question: 1) Will my existing Linden balance before premium account upgrade be included in Lindens that can be cashed out after upgrading to a premium account? Answer: Yes 2) Where is the break even in number of Lindens to build up in my account before upgrading to premium to cover costs? Answer (assume no stipend spending): roughly L$ 18000 to start equivalent to US$72 for best value annual premium fee. 3) What is the maximum Linden amount I can cash out weekly? Answer: Other than high end producers, most have a limit equivalent to US$1999 daily with the same rolling 30 day limit. (This is per avatar and is not addressing the strategies of some to have multiple avatars earning income.) Further discussion has led to some further conclusions which can shape a final approach of choices for a new user that has the research question in mind. In a nutshell, we can collectively conclude the following is true to: exist in SL, not be homeless, and have the ability to create a real income stream of USD spent outside of SL. To exist in SL, one must: Create a free account. To exist and not be homeless in SL one must: Have a land grant home (this requires ongoing known fees be paid) Buy land and a home or build a home on that land (this requires ongoing unknown fees be paid) Be "gifted" a home (someone else is paying unknown fees) To exist, not be homeless, and live (have L$ to pay fees) in SL, one must: Be gifted L$ Earn or win L$ or Buy L$ There is concurrence that a premium account is not needed to buy and sell L$ because USD can be banked to pay fees. A verified payment method is required to cashout in USD. However, to exist, not be homeless, live, and create an income stream of USD spent outside of SL, one might want to: Signup for a premium account (best value is annual payment at US$6/mth). Premium accounts come with L$1300/mth stipend plus a Linden Home where the land it sits on is a "grant" meaning no extra fee. So, for a premium account, this either requires one to: Find a way to be gifted, earn, win, or buy around L$18000 as an investment to start then be on the hook to be gifted, earn, win, or buy another L$18000 to cover the upcoming annual fee or Invest US$144 then work to be gifted, earn, win, or buy at least L$300/mth to sustain existence with more to live and create an income spent outside of SL All of the comments, feedback, and advice here are valued tyvm! We all have different goals for existence and living in virtual worlds. This was a fun way (for me) to analyze and get advice for helping new disabled or homebound users get started down a path to create a real income stream to pay real world bills. Some of the comments here appear hostile but I believe those to be associated with misunderstandings - no ill will from me.

Given what was posted about selling L$ to put USD in the account "bank" without a premium account one has to wonder why LL does not let people use L$ to pay instead of USD. Then you realize they charge the flat rate US$1.49 transaction fee.

Interesting as I was told by several people you cannot sell lindens for dollars without a premium account... i will look into it. But the use case analysis requires the avatar not be homeless. So, if the avatar without a premium account has no home they are homeless until they earn enough to buy land pay tier and build or buy a house and all its furnishings yes?

good point

Based on what you show, you can trade up to 1999 per 24 hours but there is a rolling limit of 30 days that is the same. So I presume that means if you cashout the entire 1999 in one day you cannot cashout again for 30 days. If you cashout 1/10 of 1999 on 10 days each within the 30 days period when you reach the 1999 total you are then restricted until the next 30 day period. That's what I mean if that helps? I am not sure of these things - just trying to understand them so I can present a full analysis for new users.