gregwen71

I wasn't speaking of you nor Innula, both of whom I've read the help you've provided here for years. I'm speaking of others who I've seen in groups touting their skills, responding to people that need help, and then basically tell the group, well I don't take on projects I'm not interested in. Which is fine, that's them.. but I'm someone who likes to help. So, if someone ask for help, my thought is.. if you're not here to take on little things that people need help with.. because 'they bore you'.. then probably shouldn't respond in a basic scripting help group. lol That being said.. Rolig and Innula don't spend their time touting how good they are, may be, they just show it by helping other people... Do you see the difference in which I would have more respect for?

As the OP, this post has finally turned into the kind of discussion I had hoped for, originally. I stopped responding because of the toxic nature, from my point of view, of the initial responses that disregarded the topic and chose to change the topic to something more inflammatory. Now, there are too many good statements being made, that have given me food for thought, to respond to. So, instead, I'll just make a blanket statement. I had said, after the first set of posts, that there had been no responses that would change my views on selling no-mod scripts. Then people that had something intelligent to stay started responding, and I paid attention. I think the one comment that started making me really rethink everything about being a scripter in SL was the one about "the creator is EITHER selling a product (as the OP) or doing WORK FOR HIRE as Rolig and Innula do." I do both, but where I see the problem is that I don't separate the two as being different in terms of function/rules/model... whatever you want to call it. I view the work as mine. And, others don't see it that way. Which is fine, but at the same time, I can't expect others to change their thinking, if I want to be successful and sought after for services, then I need to adapt to the clientele's thinking. Currently I have a small client list of 5 or 6 regular/repeat customers. The whole bit about work for hire to random people was simply to expand that client list. There are folks who make statements like, "I don't do projects if they don't interest me." That's fine, it's how they feel, but I am hearing that more and more from people that say this in an effort to portray that they are some kind of "master scripter" in SL.. whether they are or not.. Like some kind of level that they've achieved. Personally, I don't view programming this way. I'm a coding junkie. I'm a geek and a code nerd. Programming/Coding/Scripting... this is my happy place. I don't care what the job is, as long as it's not something "illegal", I will do it. Why? Because I love the focus, the way time falls away, and then when you "wake up", you've created something. I also do it to get things off my mind, or to think through things I cannot control while I'm creating something I can control. In the short time that I've been back in SL, I have done more "free" projects than paid. And yes, that "free" included full perm scripts. I don't take the stance of "if it doesn't interest me, then I won't do it. I take the stance that, if it's not worth anything to me, then I don't charge for it. You want to make wings that flap? Sure, I can do that in just a few minutes of time.. how much? pfft.. just remember me next time you need scripting done. And if they come back to me again with another small project that's worth nothing to me.. ^^ Rinse. Repeat. Programming is what I do. I get paid for it. And, in SL, why shouldn't I subsidize my SL through my scripting abilities? People always seem to go for the toxic responses... "Oh, you're trying to get rich. You're just jealous that someone else might make more money than you do. You probably didn't charge enough." The stupidity of making erroneous assumptions about someone you know nothing about will always get to me. Not because someone "hurt my feelings", since most times that's not even happening, but because I just literally have no tolerance for toxic stupidity. I simply don't want some lazy jerk, like the original responder, to be able to throw money at me to write code that they don't want to do themselves, yet want to be able to edit, as much as they would like, even using that source code to completely alter it into something else using code blocks they couldn't think of themselves, resell it, claim it as their own code, or have it available to transfer to others down the line like it's a simple tip jar rotation script or some other script you can find in the "library" of your inventory. Others would say, you got paid for it.. why should you care? Ask any creator.. painter, sculpter writer, mesh creator, etc... Why should they care? And the answer will always be the same. I spent my time on that, I focused on that, getting it right mattered, and when something matters.. for whatever reason.. then you care about it. Period. That being said, I've never been close-minded to giving full perm scripts and have done so on many occasions. The exchange between myself and my client was given for context, because it's what caused me to start thinking about the topic and wanting to understand more about how people think, in SL, about the topic. For those that wanted to respond to that context(rather than respond to the actual topic), I say this: I didn't explain every single detail of our exchange. So, most of those that are saying "You should have done this or that".. for most of you the simple answer is.. I did, and you've made the assumption that I didn't rather than asking me. For those that mentioned an issue with my profile. I've never had anyone tell me of problems with my profile and not being able to read it, certainly not in-world. In fact, I know that the client was able to read my profile because he commented on my profile. Another item not mentioned in the OP because it wasn't worth mentioning as it wasn't the topic to be discussed. But, because more than one person has commented about the profile issue.. (I still don't understand what the issue actually is)... I've gone and made privacy changes and made parts of my profile visible to anyone that is logged in. And again.. you're making the assumption that looking at "gregwen71" profile is going to get you the answers you're looking for. It's not, since gregwen71 is not my scripter avatar. Incidentally, if anyone knows how to change the forum username, send me a message letting me know, because the option to edit my name is not available to me. (It's there, it's just not editable) I've learned a bit about how people think and also for what reasons they think that way and I feel there's enough food for thought that I can make some changes to my own thinking. Ultimately, I will probably do less scripter for hire and more focusing on my own projects for sale and generate new clientele from simply helping people that have scripting issues (like in groups). Have a good one.

^^ This. This is what I stand by and the reason that almost all my clients come back to me (without being forced). As for the rest of your post, I do pretty much everything you've stated, and when a client wants work tailored to their needs, I"m find with doing that. I can also agree with not harassing a client on what they do with their scripts. But, one cannot trust a simple promise that a customer won't resell your scripts or claim them as their own when you give them full perms. It's the same as releasing all rights to the work you've created. This is SL, and everyone knows it's not worth it to pursue legal action in most cases.. a broken promise or a broken "alleged" contract it simply means you, the scripter, got screwed in some way. Now, there seems to be a lot of "I don't care what happens afterwards" going on. But, let's say you did gain a promise that there would be no reselling, claim of creation, or transfer to other people (through sales or otherwise).. and that promise was broken. Would you care then? I don't know man, honestly, I think people, especially the long-timers in SL, pretty much threw out the rules of whats right and wrong and started making their own rules, and it's gone on for so long that now people accept it as "the way", while still trying to quote as if it's conceptually based in RL. I do proprietary work, and will give that work full perms knowing that my client has no intentions of anyone else getting their hands on the work.. but if that's not discussed, then any custom script I write is proprietary to me, not my client. Have a good day, folks.

I agree with this and I can own up to my error in expecting this person to read my picks tabs after I told him to do so. As well, him dumping 2 "almost signed deals" for me makes no sense to me when I told him to find another scripter and only return to me when he couldn't. I appreciate your comment. And regarding the dispute, it's a lesson learned and I'm surprised I've gotten this far in SL with that never being a problem. I respect your opinion on why you sell your scripts full perm. I don't completely agree with it, although I would sell full perm scripts based on those reasons in certain circumstance. What pissed me off about this topic is that I only gave the background story regarding my client to provide context to the discussion. Then the question was posed others would handle selling, or rather the expectation of receiving, full perm scripts. Instead of that question being focused on, my already-over-with dispute with my client became the topic instead of just being context to the question. I don't mind having debates and discussions with anyone about anything... what I do mind is being attacked in a veiled manner through false assumptions and accusations for absolutely no reason. I have read a lot of discussions where people talk about copyright, intellectual property, etc.. and it still amazes me how much people don't know and keep making false statements as truth. One of my biggest pet peeves is someone who believes that because Intellectual Property contains the word Intellectual, that it means every idea you have is automatically copyrighted. It's not. Ideas are not protected. So saying to someone "It was my idea, I own it, I can do anything I want with those scripts" is a falsehood. It does not matter if it was your idea. Copyright law does not protect ideas (although patent law may protect a novel idea). Instead, copyright protects the perceptible capture of original ideas. The idea–expression divide differentiates between ideas and expression, and states that copyright protects only the original expression of ideas, and not the ideas themselves. This principle was codified by the Copyright Act of 1976, which governs current copyright laws. And while one may claim that different countries have different laws, International copyright law has become more standardized. Copyright law protects the expression of said ideas and is protector for the creator of that expression. I.E. the programmer, not the idea-man. Here's a quick question: Person A has an idea, but doesn't have the skills to put that idea into expression/creation, so they go looking for someone who does. Person B who does not know Person A and has never met nor spoke with them, comes up with the same, or only slightly dissimilar, idea. They have the skills to do this themselves and they do so... who has the rights of ownership? This is a rhetorical question to illustrate my point. Here's one more point.. people seem to think that programmers shouldn't take a stance on their works because in SL, anyone can learn how to script and there are plenty of free scripts. But, try asking a mesh creator for their DAE file.. because you know.. full perms should always include source files, and that's exactly what a .dae file is, or .obj... To end this discussion that basically went nowhere, I'm just going to say that nothing that has been said changes my mind about selling scripts as no-modify. In fact, the initial contributor to the discussion only reinforced why I feel people should protect themselves when dealing with creative works, as constantly bring up trust issues is usually a sign of not being worthy of trust.

Actually, I did tell him to read my picks tab where it does clearly state that I don't do full perm scripts. I also told him to find another scripter and come back to me only if he wasn't able to find one. In our full perms discussion he stated, "I found about 6 scripters, but they couldn't work in the necessary time frame. I actually dumped 2 almost-signed-deals for you." What he wanted, I had half the project done in 20 minutes. The second half would have taken 20 more.. and he apparently couldn't find scripters that could do it within 48 hours? As I said in the original post, he mentioned nothing about his needs for full perms, and claims that he can't do anything with the script I gave him.. and yet, he was able to use the script and claimed it worked great. Then asked for a full perms script. He stated that he could only use a full perms script. Despite not saying a word about full perms, he states, "so I decided to delete the script that I have no use for in no mod". And sorry to hear that people that have scripted for you haven't worked out in terms of maintenance. None of my customers have ever had a problem with that. -shrugs-

Your entire response is full of erroneous assumptions. Firstly, I took nothing personal, but your constant posting of assumptions that you have no evidence backing is quite irritating. I'm all for healthy discussion, but time and again you've made assumptions with no evidence and then basically accused me of "wanting a piece of a pie that I don't deserve". I have already stated earlier that I do my maintenance/editing for free... There is no "hoping what they do is successful so I get a piece of that pie". So, no.. you are not talking about the topic You also make the mistake of thinking that I have no clue what I'm talking about or doing. I am, actually, a freelance programmer in RL. I have been for over 10 years. Your assumptions couldn't be further from the truth. It's fine that you keep making the same comment of me wanting to "force my customers to be dependent on me", I have a current client list of people that know that there is no truth to the idea that I want to force anyone to do anything. I posted a topic, wanted other people's thoughts on the subject matter. You've chosen to make this personal with your wrong assumptions about me, someone you know nothing about. I've really got nothing left to say to you.

Firstly, the point of creating business is to create repeat customers. So, in short.. yes.. why would I ever want my client going to some other scripter to make edits to my scripts? You buy a car.. but you're dependent on gas stations to be able to drive that car. You could learn how to fix that car, but instead you are dependent on mechanics to do so. And many folks tend to have the mechanics at the car dealership (the people that sold them the car) be the ones to fix it, due to warranties. So, it's not inconceivable for someone to be dependent on a certain scripter for their needs.. it's called being a client or customer. Despite your exaggeration regarding a million L$, to take someone else's idea, decline the commission, and then to make it myself and sell it would be plainly unethical. I don't care how much money I could make from it, I'd rather have my integrity and clients that were happy to hire me. First you speak of paranoia about what a scripter could do, as your reason for wanting source code, but then you suggest I screw a client by taking their idea and doing it for my own self. Ethics :-) It is my business on whether someone sells my code as their own, it's called copyright infringement. It's not a matter of how much they made with my code versus how much I made writing it for them. It's my job to protect my work, no one else's. If I have not made an effort, through agreements, disclaimers, and notices to protect my rights, such as making it no-modify, then I have no case for infringement. If I give away source code, then I am stating that I have no rights to that code and have sold them to the client. Someone who tells me they will not resell my work or claim it as their own and does so anyway, because I gave it to them as full perms and "they could get away with it".... well that's more likely to happen than me sticking some code in there that screws my client in some way. Doing anything of the sort would ruin my reputation and certainly ruin any business I want to achieve. Chat History and Notecards are not legally binding contracts, so anyone can say anything, and completely negate the terms of agreement afterwards if they so chose. So.. me agreeing to give full perm scripts.. I'd do it.. but it would cost double the agreed commission of the script to give all my rights away, since there is very little beyond no-modify to protect my source code. An example to end this post: I am currently working on a major project, building something that everybody knows about, but no one is actually selling. The folks that have a similar product all have "inhouse" scripters that have built the product for them. I have no idea how they've built the system or what features I'm building that may or may not be in their products. but what I do know is that there is not anything like it on Marketplace right now. At least not until next month when I release mine. This pretty much makes my product the only publicly available one of it's kind. Now, why would I leave my scripts full perm? And if someone buys the product and then messages me wanting the source code.. I'd be super confused at their intelligence. I currently have 2 clients waiting for this system and neither of them have a problem with my scripts being proprietary. Clearly you and I would never be able to do business together, and that's ok. Our views contradict each other. What I'm getting is that you don't see any reason for copyright protection and feel that full ownership and rights to commissioned work should always pass to the buyer. I can give you many examples of how that is not true, but this post is too long already.

So, I'm interested in other's thoughts on this subject. My situation was this: A person posted in a scripts group tonight about needing a scripter for paid work. He wanted PMs if anyone was interested. So, i responded to him in a private message to see what he needed and if I had the time to do it. He briefly explained the project and, for me, it wasn't a matter of time so much as it was a matter of very basic scripting that anyone else responding to him could/should have been able to do. At that point, I told him to come back around to me if he couldn't find anyone else, since I was headlong into a much larger project. I said that if he couldn't find anyone else, I'd take a break from the current project to knock out his project. He needed his within 48 hours, so I figured I could get it done and back to my larger project. As it happens, he did come back around to me and stated that he talked to a few other scripters and they couldn't do it for various reasons. A couple stated that they couldn't finish the script in 48 hours, which was crazy to me.. so I told the guy I'd get it done. We discussed the project, agreed on a payment. I take 1/2 upon commission and 1/2 upon completion. He took it upon himself to pay me the full agreed amount rather than half. As well, instead of having me do the full requested script, he chopped it up into 3 steps and wanted work product at each step that he could begin using. I didn't understand that, for such a quick turn around time, but.. he was the client, and it wasn't a terribly stupid request, so the client gets what he asks for. I finished "Step 1" and sent it to him. My script was no-modify, of course. It's in my picks tabs that I don't sell full perm scripts unless specifically agreed to and compensated extra for the fact that I'm basically giving away any rights I have to the script. So, this client sends me a message that the script was "looking good" and then asks, "Can you toss the script full perm on me so that I can implement it already?". I told him that I don't sell full perm scripts, and that if any editing needed to be done to the scripts, I would do them at no extra charge. (this is my standard procedure.. I do lifetime customer service, which includes minor editing. A requested major upgrade would not be free, however). He then expressed that he thought the deal was that I would give him scripts full perm. It was not, and not ever discussed. He stated that he felt it was implied in the Non-Commercial, Private script request. He did state that the script would be non-commercial and private in usage. But nothing about full perm scripts was discussed. He then stated he was too tired to remember which scripter said what to him. (He apparently talked to quite a few). After a bit of discussion where this guy went on a typing tangent and completely missed my willingness to work something out, he told me to keep the full amount and cancel the job and he would find someone else to do the work. I gave him half the money back for half the project being completed. So, after all that background, here is what I'm wondering from other programmers in SL. How do you handle Full Permission requests? I, personally, wouldn't do full permissions except for a trusted friend. Especially if it's a custom job... with one caveat... if I'm being asked to write a script that can easily be found in the LSL Script Library (i.e. not my work), I usually won't charge at all and I would give it full perm. Anyway, your thoughts?

It's not really a surprise that "customer support" isn't the first thing we think of... I mean, it is an oxymoron, isn't it? lol

A few years ago, when I first started looking into HTTP-In, The scripts did not work with my host (I have used Hostgator loyally for many years). But, as the wiki says, most hosts don't have these ports open. I called my host, explained what I needed, and they were opened immediately. I don't know if you've tried calling GoDaddy, but it's worth a try.. and if they won't, I can tell you that Hostgator will. ;-) It's probably worth mentioning that I didn't have to do anything myself (php.ini editing or whatnot). I simply made a call, made my request, was told I was all set, and the script started working as intended.

Thank you for your reply. The item being sold by my client to their customer is actually a HUD. The script sets up the hud automatically (name/desc/scale). The only thing they would need to do is add their own texture to it. As for the "clickable options" on the HUD, that is handled via script and setup elsewhere in the system (by using one of the objects that client keeps for themselves). It's in the client's best interest to make sure that permissions are set correctly, or they could lose out on money. For that item, I was thinking how I can't set a no transfer setting on the script, initially, because then they wouldn't be able to sell the HUD.. if my thinking is correct. Like I said, my mind gets twisted up when thinking about it. I guess it's more apt to say that I'm confused about how to handle "3rd Owner Permissions", or if I even should rather than let the client handle it themselves. Edited the Original Post: To provide more info about the pieces of the system Edit Again: Actually, as often happens, my mind falls into a problem and I either solve it, or overthink it into confusion. Since the system involves a few pieces, and the pieces kept by the client are what drives the entire system, I don't necessarily need to worry about permissions and script protection (beyond no-mod) of the passed on items. They can't be used without the 3 client objects, which will have no mod/trans. Thanks for your attempts to help, Ruthven.

I really can't tell you why, after almost 6 years, I cannot wrap my head around this, but... it's true. I'm forever having to ask about how permissions work. Here is my issue: I am working on a script project that I will be selling. Once sold, one item in that project will be sold by my client to their customers. Another item, possibly 2, will be transferred to people involved in my clients event. I am trying to vision the permissions necessary to make sure everything will work as intended. The customers, client, nor clients "people" will need to modify the scripts in any way, So, I'll be setting the scripts to no-modify. I do not want the scripts given away, however. No-Modify takes care of being able to read the scripts, but what about say.. a friend wants a copy of the system to use. 3 objects w/ scripts will be kept by the client. 2 objects w/ scripts will be passed on by the client to their "people" (basically people involved in the event the client is running) 1 object w/scripts is sold to the customer Could someone help my addled brain? Let me know if you need more information.

Thank you for the reply. And yes, I've joined a few groups since posting this. I don't disagree with your sentiment about groups of "Advanced Level" scripters. I even find it hard to participate in forums where Advanced Scripters seem to stroke each other, or show disdain towards new scripters/programmers, rather than offer something meaningful. I don't explain myself well, so I'm sure some might have misunderstood what I was looking for. I'm not interested in a closed "Advanced Level" group. I wouldn't fit in, anyway. I just was looking to be more involved in something that I enjoy. Something to give me a reason to stay, so to speak. -walks off humming Million Reasons by Lady Gaga-

Hello. I'm a returning resident. I've been gone for quite a while, and to be honest, my only reason for returning was an old friend offering a script commission. Over the past week, since this offer arose, I've been thinking, "What would it take for me to actually return to SL, rather than a short stint to complete a script project?" The answer I came up with is that I would like to be more "involved". But, with what? Programming is sort of my "Happy Place". I can do it for hours and not notice the world pass me by. So, I was hoping that I might have an opportunity to become more involved through discussion groups containing experienced scripters. I don't know, though, if anything like what I"m thinking exists in SL. Obviously, I realize this forum is here to help others that ask questions, and there are several groups inworld that I can join (also meant to help others with script issues), but I'm looking for something of a higher level, so to speak. In my thoughts, I would imagine a discussion group of adept scripters that engage with Linden Labs regarding LSL and it's issues and upcoming changes. But, it doesn't have to be something so formal... a group that meets regularly to discuss scripting, LSL, projects, etc where there is opportunity to create collaboration is what I'm looking for. I hope I've explained myself well. If anyone has suggestions for me, it would be much appreciated. Thank you, Logan Reigns