MIstahMoose

maybe that comes with your narcissism, because I never stood up for my points other than to debate mi amigo. You're the one getting your panties in a twist and rather than opening up and having a conversation you decided you're better and should just preach at me. 1) LOD Butchery is widespread cuz hey this isnt a professional platform 2) See #1 And I never considered my opinion the best, I even agreed that LOD is the -best- way to do it, I just said that Hey LL Should provide tools otherwise this issue wont get fixed. But hurdur no I gotta be wrong to your glorious intelligence. Again telling me to get over it, Dude, I keep saying this is what I want/wish. And that this is what creators do to get around the specs. I don't get you man, I really don't. You get salty when I misinterpret your ***** but dang all you do is misinterpret and preach at someone just trying to give a different opinion. And I would be exhausted if I was you, I wasted enough time I could have been productive with; on you. So goodbye Mr Narcissistic tendencies, Maybe we can chat again when you figure out how to have a discussion thats not a one sided "Ha, Wrong!" speech. P.S. Your last line confirms a lot of things about you

Like I said, A million times, and first of all #rude I don't have to face or get over anything, I can hope and I can wish and want for LL To deliver something. Thats my right as a user Just like your right is to be condescending to me (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧ Im glad your enjoying my bruh meme and really showing me the respect you seek as a person! PBR TO bake down, oh no then we get the argument on the other side of "Why are creators baking lighting! I want to normals and specular!" DO you even create here bruh, with all your mighty superiority complex of what should be done right or wrong, whats the last thing you actually sold? Like not to be mean but **** son u got some right or wrong egos and all I present are my opinions "Hey this is what creators do and think, And heres why" and you're over here like bam bam whim wham i gotta show moose hes totally wrong in the rudest way possible! Oh dangit, he got me with a zinger! Better use french! But then.. The most recent thing you've made is a spaceship..So are you just one of those guys who preach it but don't practice it? I get it man, you gotta be condescending to someone giving their opinions on an online forum because no one takes you seriously in the world outside of SL. I get it, do you want me to pat your back and say you're teh best optibro! Like you're actually exhausting to deal with. Should I rewrite all your posts to show you how to talk to human beans? Enjoy your day dude, I'm actually done asf with you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Its normal for game engines to have normals and specular in only certain areas? Maybe it was constrained to system limits of the original launch of SL? IE A lot of older games only have normal and spec for very few scenarios? Not sure what the point you're making with it was, but yes its fun to see the hidden gems of prior to mesh normals

I have a lot, My entire mainstore I built around using advanced lighting. As a test, the build itself isnt that great but the textures and materials are there if you want to take a look. I use materials on my clothing as well. I've been using materials since it first came out, but I stand by my statements. Its laggy, and very annoying to get right because of how SL lighting works and espc because that lighting changes constantly user to user. ETA: Though my expectations and desires I think are different from most here. Theres no need to be condescending, either. If someone has a difference of opinion.

But thats where the first statement comes in, LL has to have the tools that automate and helps to fix some of these. IE I said in a post earlier in this thread, when mesh was first coming out I wanted LL to hire someone to manually approve everything that went onto the grid. I get that it may be unrealistic, but there are marketplaces for 3D that are doing it. I don't see why it should be any different. Make beta grid infinite unmonitored uploads, then upload your main model to the main grid. Unfortunately this would suck if you mess something up and have to resubmit

Yep, I agree, but in this sort of platform LL really has to create tools that automate a lot of that, or at least make it so super simple because.. 99% of people creating for this platform arent going to be professionals, and aren't going to want to spend their time doing anything but creating for fun and throwing it into SL immediately. But I don't disagree, It just -cant- be on the user IMO. I mean, keeping up with the standards of modern games is extremely hard, but we're starting to fall pretty far behind in SL. We dont -need- graphics to be top of the line, I mean.. This could be dwarf fortress.. But The better graphics we have the more enjoyable SL becomes for people. Users who spend their time making beautiful avatars can make them even better, sims can be more fantastical especially if we get things like god rays, that aren't just prims with textures and so forth.. Its just a better experience, and its why modern games are moving higher and higher in graphics as well. Thats how I feel towards that, and I do agree people are very counter productive. But the top stores right now, lets take vale koer for example. To achieve the high quality they have, they have to use a ton of polygons, and four 1k texture maps just for their tops. Thats crazy right? But its all they can do, because if you say "Oh use normal maps for your wrinkles" etc, well.. I don't know if youve played much with normal maps in SL (besides the lag they create) is that theyre.. jsut bad.. How light is rendered and works here doesnt seem to work well with the normals/Spec SL uses. And to make normals really pop, your object ends up being shiny.. So its a strange balance and it doesnt feel right creatively. I think a source of the Normal/spec issue is that most users create normals for DirectX and I think SL uses GLSL? Sorry I rambled a bit, Havent slept in a bit

We cant even begin to compare the difference in PBR vs Spec/Norm. Im not even sure if its "specgloss" for SL.. Its a whole other ballpark of optimization, because the maps actually -do- something. ETA: By maps doign something, I mean you can see them and turn them on. PBR Is a beast of details, and its much more than placing polygons. However thats all we -can- do in SL, is pixel density and polygons. We don't have 10 maps per object to render out a beautiful real time graphic with microsurface details https://www.marmoset.co/posts/basic-theory-of-physically-based-rendering/

Not sure if you've fixed it by now, but a work around is once you've got the rigging as close as possible; is to actually move the mesh in edit mode without adjusting the weighting. And uploading to check. Bit of a messy fix, but it works, and is easy to see the adjustments you need.

Appreciate that you didnt use a 1k imposter Great stuff, Great thread to read too.

So I was playing devils advocate on that one, but to be fair I see some creators with 5+ events. And I am -not- casting shade, but some things do take a lot longer than what you displayed here, So I feel my argument is still valid for those creators. I agree everyone should do their best, but its just not always possible. Especially when you have to rig something, and everyone demands at least 3 different bodies.. Its very time consuming. And if you have a more complex object, say a Sci-fi event.. Creating the object and then retopo and textures.. its time consuming. x5. I get htat its -do-able- but its also very few creators full time gigs, they just want to do it for fun.. No one wants to do boring retopo when theyre working in SL for fun.. So I do get it, but again its up to LL To provide better tools. Not to fuss at creators (IMO).

Okkkay, see you at gdc bruh My b, That was rude. However.. Try making a character that fits within this environments standards and get nominal sales with it. Cuz its probably not happening. Also, You may be behind on real time rendering standards... Again I've already stated my disappointment in LL in this category. Im prob gonna stop feeding you at this point, but what you want from creators is not going to make them sales and therefore no incentive to even create here. LL has to step up, and give us tools and an engine that can handle the tools they give us. IE They gave us Normal and spec but Advanced lighting lags machines if more than a few 512 textures are on screen. So I get it dude, I do. I work in the same field as you seem to, but again you gotta chill my man.

Bruh, try uploading a 38k poly avatar on firestorm and not get mav block error. You act like ever scenario is the same. Your models != my models, You assume im doing something wrong immediately. Didnt admit not understanding, prrtty sure i said something like high poly mesh has issues on FS. C'mon bruh. You never even inquired about anything i said just was like "ur wrong lel" Not trying to troll or make you hate me but def could benefit from asking questions to understand before assumptions and stating definitives. Maybe a bit on those condescending statements too And ill remember playing devils advocate on SL forums doesnt bring out actual discussions

"Sometimes you do just duplicate the model and reduce" Wasn't referring to automated decimation, because you're right that wouldn't give a workable model. Secondly, No he is not the exception. I think you refer to everything with too much definitive. There is a lot of ways to do things, especially when it comes to sculpture. Even if it is inside Zbrush. Is it recommended for new digital artist to start low and subdiv into high? Yes. But once you're not a complete beginner anymore, there is a lot of avenues open to you with how you approach your model. Do you just assume everyone doesn't know what they're talking about ? Cuz thats kind of how I feel about holding a discussion with you.. I mean you even explained retopo man.. come on This whole thread is about that, if I didn't know it by now.. Not flaming just.. Man give some people credit Anyway man, Take care, was fun

Sorry was a little confusing towards the end (Havent slept in a few days) Sometimes you do just duplicate the model and reduce ^.^ But yes more common to just use remodel or use topogun and go over the model And @ sculpting reference... depends how you sculpt ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ IE Scott Eaton i'll stop grinding everyones gears now, but its interesting to see how everyone thinks and approached this topic.

I like creating content in a lot of different games like VRchat etc, but I just am expecting more from LL because they've been around so long. They just have neglected it and milked their users rather than really working to improve the environment we work in. I get that writing an engine from scratch is hard, and implementing different demands into that engine is extremely hard.. but things like bones that are already implemented could vastly and rapidly be improved if they just hired a specialist. Maybe their code has no comments on it and is a crazy confusing mess, but I just expect more.

Yeah textures, I wrote this at 4am forgive me And I remember quite a freaking few uploads that don't work that weren't on me. Especially since this is a post on firestorm, half the time I upload on firestorm I get a mav_block error, but it works fine on the main viewer. Thank goodness I found that out so I could stop tearing my hair out >.> To point out on firestorm, Sometimes clearing the mavblock error is a simple as renaming the export, other times its impossible to fix for whatever reason. I feel like im not entirely convinced that starting low is always the right way to model things. I do agree clean mesh is very important, but sometimes its just easier to start high and retopo later. I think thats more of a "It depends" situation I would also like to repeat again, Maps are great and all if they were even close to viable in SL content creation. I do add maps to my creations just in the hopes that they get seen or are used in photography, but the average user isnt going to see them

Cant really argue with your points, they are fair ones to make However It -has- been 6 years.. And.. Little to no improvement from linden lab on mesh has been quite disheartening. (Don't say bento is an improvement please Its nothing like what they promised us YEARS before bento was even implemented...its also not entirely mesh related -even if animation is tied directly to mesh-) A lot of these methods are going to be set in stone until they adjust how things are calculated. Heck I remember arguing that I wanted LL to approved every model uploaded to SL when it was about to be released. Because what they were doing in the test server was setting up for disaster.. which is what we have now :\ Unfortunately no matter how much you argue with creators, the market is consumer driven. As long as there are people buying and demanding 1 LI items at high detail and high texture.. There will be a supply. It really depends on Linden Lab to make SL into a user friendly game. The Creators will always work to the limitations of what we're given, but right now we're not given much to work off of. Heck you can tell how much neglect the freaking uploader has just by something as simple as the "Name your mesh" Doesn't actually name your mesh! Anyway I just think im repeating myself at this point, I like seeing what everyone's opinions and thoughts are. I really wish creating game ready models was the trend in SL, but even when it does become the trend they need to make Advanced lighting usable, because the only way game ready beats high detail is when we can use normal and specular maps at -all- times. Which like I said in a previous post, Is unusable even if you make something with 100% efficiency. | ETA: Big step in teh right direction would be if linden lab just deleted everything from 2014 and earlier LOL That old stuff.. Lag central.

Well there comes the difference, I was thinking of high poly models If you try modeling something complex and using the uploader, it will be destroyed. The uploader is more than sub par in that category. With low poly and simple objects , yeah it works fine. Have a good night, Hope this didn't stress you out ^.^

Those parameters are terrible for most models? What you can optimize yourself gives you vastly better results than those will. It almost completely destroys most models past the highest LOD. If you are wanting this to be visible from any view, then I am guessing you'd want their textures to not get completely and utterly destroyed by the auto generated LOD too? Which is what happens if you use it most of the time. They may see the silhouette but is that all you're going for? Because like you said, somethings melt right away. But even if you give it a little more polycount at lower LODs, the textures still get absolutely destroyed by the uploader while theyre still in view, and you have no control over that really? I don't feel thats a bad argument, just a difference in opinion of what we want out of the uploader

Counter argument (Sorry I love playing devils advocate) for as far as creators ignoring the optimization side, a lot of those larger creators do this as their sole income and optimization is largely unnoticed by the mass population of SL users. Having to create so much in a month for an event is pretty hard, and if you miss and event or two people start to forget your name. Time or necessity for optimization just isnt there imo, for most things at least. (I will say those creators who just do recolors should have time to optimize there stuff smh *throws shade* ) I think this problem really is largely on Linden Labs shoulders, Take a look at engines like Unreal Engine 4. That shiet optimizes for you, and does it so dang well I can scale my 4k models to MOBILE instantly, with good quality! Yes creators can be blamed, but we are still not given the tools we need to create quality content. A lot of the work arounds are dirty and they really shouldn't have to be. Spending so much time just to get an upload to work is frustrating beyond belief, and having to optimize on top of that? bleh.

So on this topic is seems homes and trees seem to be very important for the LOD to be correct, but what other context is it important for LOD to be correct. Props etc? What are your opinions on clothing creators using those tricks? Since for lower end users, SL auto imposters avatars at a certain range. I do think this is a great thread for constructive criticism, and I personally think LODs on large structures are great, I..won't lie that I neglect them a bit on smaller objects I personally still believe the texture sizes are bigger issues than LOD.. Most modern GPUs can handle insane amount of polys on screen, but its the 20 textures on a small bottle that will lag you to hell.. Not to go off topic, just considering lag/efficiency.

Well its just what you see in groups 24/7 "X Is just a triangle?" "Oh set your LOD factor to 5 etc" I personally think the GPU market will stabilize again, crypto currency already had one crash. Its just a bubble imo. personally, and not being a professional market dude, I think the party will end soon and the cards that aren't burnt out will be a nice $50-100 dollars for 1080s ^.^ I don't think a lot of them are bad craftmen, they make good quality products. They meet the consumers demand, but the Land impact tricks and LOD is just.. Well.. Kind of on Linden Lab. I mean have you seen how LL handles draw calls? Especially being able to cam around, its pretty rough on systems. Or what about that promise of giving creators custom bones? Bento is still trash for anyone wanting to make creative moving things! And I am not entirely sure animesh will be the solution, either. Unfortunately, Linden Labs platform itself leads to creators having to use poor techniques so that modern quality can be reached. I've designed a lot of game-ready things, but even alone on a sim with them turning on advanced lighting lags the hell out of everything. I think people put too much blame on the creators, but they just try to meet the quality demand of the users. Advanced lighting is too terribly implemented to be useful, so having to meet Land impact constraints while meeting user demands of high detail without being able to implement normal maps and specular.. Well. Its quite a problem Now I get the 1024 textures on tiny objects, yeah thats awful. Though It all just..depends.. ya'know? IE Photo ready props should have high texture density, etc.. Modern Game characters use 4k textures, and I get nothing will ever be as optimized as modern games.. But thats the level the user wants to see now. Its a lot more complex and detailed than what you can get if you're optimizing for lag. In the end we work to the consumer, if the consumer wants to pay me to make a game ready lag free sim, sure. I'd do it, but if I make buildings that have 512 textures and no lighting baked in, the reaction you get are "ew wtf?" Bit of a ramble sorry ;P

People...actually..trade pot...in sl? Wut. Explain?

Curiously without these tools would most users notice this? I'm just wondering, since most set their LOD high and have left it. Is this a revolution of good content on SL :O? Unfortunately for clothing to compete its a little.. janky... >.>

3-5 store events a month and want someone to make the content too? I hope theyre not gacha.. Most outfits can take 10ish hours to make at a decent quality. My rate is usually about $20 an hour so you're looking at $200+ USD an item.. Unless you have a big following you won't make that back fast. I would just invest the time in learning how to make mesh and texture yourself. Unless thats reasonable of course, because if so then by all means hire me ^.^