Rommanno

Amethyst Jetaime wrote: This should lay to rest the theory that LL closed the TPE's only because they wanted to monopolize the sale of L's LOL from reseller TOS: 7.Reseller may not purchase or receive Linden Dollars from any source other than through the LindeX. Reseller may not, for instance, purchase or receive Linden Dollars from users on the Second Life platform, except in those exceptional circumstances set forth in Section 10 below. It doesn't lay rest, it enforces it if anything else.

kevin350 wrote: I know everyone loves to hate the Lindens but I think the TOS change that effects Third Party Exchanges has more to do with illegal currency activity than anyone here comprehends. This is espceially true for Exchanges that offer options to move LInden Dollars to BitCoin currency. As in most of the world, regulations are not created for those that use a system fairly but for those willing to exploit it. While most SL participants simply want an easy way to participate in the SL economy, an element of evil is out there looking at new was to cheat one person or another out of something. Google "Linden BitCoin Trading" and take a look at the not so obvious problems and why LL has to be proactive. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1.... http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2013/05/new-registration-requirements.. I never understood the fraud argument. The most I've been defrauded on the Internet is 30 bucks on Ebay. I say let that crook keep those 30 dollars and let us keep the free market. You should never keep more money on PayPal, Second Life, Bitcoin or whatever more than you would be prepared to lose. Internet fraud isn't that big of a deal, it's mostly scaremongering to enact more of such regulations. And I do not understand why we should all be wasting our time and going through paperwork because some dude somewhere got swindled out of 50 bucks. As for Bitcoin. Yes, it's the fastest and most anonymous way of transfering money right now which probably makes it very attractive to frauds. However, it's not where the most of the fraud happens. PayPal remains the most frequent target for frauds and hackers, and despite it's size, it's the payment processor that is significantly easier to hack into than most virtual currency processors. And if Lindex wouldn't be using PayPal and CCs and accepting bank deposits and virtual currency only, there would be no credit card fraud on Second Life at all, which seems to be the issue Linden Lab is mostly concerned about. So in my eyes it's really PayPal's fault, not Bitcoin's.

Dillon Levenque wrote: Kamimatsu wrote: 1. Bitcoin is not even close to what you think it is. It's basically the same as cash or gold. It has a bad reputation because people always pay attention only to what's wrong. The news isn't always right. If it was, Second Life would be a sex sim and only a sex sim, Mass Effect would also be that, people would be proven guilty because of hearsay, and all computer experts would be criminals. 2. They get paid when you use LindeX. That's all. They only make it against the ToS because they knew they were missing out when people liked the lower fees on some other service. 3. What if you have no card or Paypal? I know someone (who will remain anonymous for obvious reasons) who plays this who legally cannot own a bank account of any kind. Cash only. Otherwise they revoke his rights under the government program he's in. 4. This won't stop laundering. People will just funnel it through LindeX instead, and LL will be paid for your loss. 5. Don't live in America? Then you can't withdraw L$ anymore. Have fun. I've seen this question asked a few times in all the flap about TPEs. The answer is quite simple. Your friend should not expect to be able to use Second Life. For the life of me I cannot understand how people who don't even have bank accounts, much less credit cards, seem to expect that the rest of the world should stop doing business the normal way and set up some sort of special program JUST FOR THEM. Bank accounts are necessary, but Lindex requires either CC or a Paypal verified with CC. So it's credit cards and Paypal that are the problem. America isn't the world. Actually, in the rest of the world, neither CCs, nor Paypal are a "normal way of doing bussiness" and a large portion of people don't have them. And that world is changing fast. With the advent of virtual currencies and Bitcoin, PayPal is becoming obsolete, especially for young people in Europe.

If they have to remove their ATMs how are they supposed to continue their service?

Amethyst Jetaime wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: So, everyone wants to use SL but no one wants to support the company running it... If you read all of the other threads like this you would realize this was done in accordance to new US laws about money laundering.. This is soundong more and more like the rants that came out when Age play was banned.. Suck it up. ^^This. I guess it is easier for them to rant in ignorance than it is to try to understand what is behind it and that LL really has no choice unless they want to leave themselves open to a huge risk for being held financially liable and possibly face criminal prosecution. In the end, to quote the bard, most of them are "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" .and will still be here six months from now. It is very mature to call arguments of others "ranting in ignorance"? Because everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant apparently. Ironically, this makes you look like an ignorant child yourself. People have lost or will lose their hard earned money. Ranting is what you would expect. And Linden Lab didn't handle this well at all. Lack of payment methods on Lindex is a very good reason for some users to be concerned about the future of SL, as well.

Dillon Levenque wrote: The bolded part is the driving force behind your 'theory'. How on earth could there be more people selling Lindens than buying them? Unless I'm completely missing the boat (always a possibility with me), the only reason someone has for selling Lindens is that someone has a surplus. The only way to acquire a surplus is to have a Linden income that exceeds Linden expenses, and the people who are in that position are a tiny minority of the general populace. I think that theory fails to leave the gate. ETA: I've seen what purports to be the text of letters sent by LL to a couple of exchanges in other threads where this is being discussed. None of them demanded the exchanges 'cease all Linden trading' (although they did in fact require the removal of ATMs) Facepalm. So you spend lindens inworld and where do they go? To space? They go to other users. Whether you send them to a friend, tipjar or spend on the marketplace they go to other users. And when there are more users leaving SL, than new users, the logical thing to assume would be that there are more Lindens leaving the SL economy than entering (but doesn't neccesarilly mean it's true). And creators despite being a minority, control a much larger portion of Lindens. And you don't have to be a wealthy creator to want to cashout. Simply not wanting to be in Second Life would be enough. And if removing ATMs doesn't mean that Linden Lab are forcing exchanges to cease trading then what does it mean? Are you seriously gonna claim that lindens are allowing for exchanges to continue to operate?

Madeliefste Oh wrote: Rommanno wrote: You live in America? PayPal is popular in USA, it's unpopular in Europe, because it's inconvenient and expensive. PayPal charges me 2 euros flat plus 3.9%. So, if I withdraw 200 euros I get charged 5%, even more if I withdraw less. This is the case for most Europeans as far as I know, PayPal is an American company geared towards Americans. And there's currency conversion fees.. My bank is absolutely fine with accepting dollars or any other currency, but PayPal insists on exchanging it to my home currency before withdrawing and charges me additional 2.9%. And it's incredibly slow.. Arghh, this just reminded me why I no longer use PayPal. No, I live in Europe. It is not unpopular in my country at all, and it is considered a safe paying method. Not only more and more webshops but also large compagnies accept Paypal here. I paid for example my computer with Paypal. My bank is also fine with receiving dollars, however they charge 6 euro for the service, when it is foreign concurrency they charge a exchange fee as well, which is 5%. So for me Paypal is the cheapest solution. I would ask which country but I guess that would be rude. Because you seem to be the only here. 6 euros for currency conversion? Jesus, what bank is that? :smileysurprised:

Amethyst Jetaime wrote: Rommanno wrote: Amethyst Jetaime wrote: Rommanno wrote: ... but I don't know much about laws in the US. Maybe you should find out what the new regulations are before ranting about something you haven't a clue about. Like it or not LL is a US company and must comply with US law. And do you yourself know much about Banking Secrecy Act or just trolling? That clarification didn't tell Linden Lab to ban those exchanges, it's just a course of action that Linden Lab took and it's probably the absolute worst one they could have taken. Until recently I have worked in the financial industry for most of my career in jobs where I was required to know and keep up with US federal and state laws and be sure the financial services department I managed complied with them. I was even the manager of methods and procedures for one company and wrote official procedures to make sure this happened throughout the entire company. So I took the time to actually read the Treasury's guide on it instead of just ranting and trolling about a conspiracy. LL was not forced to shut down the exchanges per say by the regulations, however they are required to have and maintain absolute transparency in all transactions involving transmitting RL money or L's through SL no matter what the source of that is, or face being held liable for any funny business that goes on with those exchanges. They can't do this when the money and L's are being transmitted to and from companies they have no control over. You can't say that all TPE's never have their customers involved in money laundering and fraud, which these regulations address. They are the favorite method hackers use to quickly cash out stolen L's and laundering money through them is easy. There have also been a number of cases where people paid RL money for L's and never got them, which is fraud. So while I grant that LL could have handled this better, I don't see where they had much choice as a business. They can't ignore the practical impact of the law, to do so would have been irresponsible to not only their investors but us users as well. If they did they'd risk having the government shut down any buying and selling of L's if they are not in compliance and consumers would not be able to buy anything and no SL business would have any way to sell their products. SL is not going to be the only service that has to comply. All companies that run exchanges of RL money for virtual currency that operate in the US must also comply. So you probably will to see changes made by other on line gaming companies and virtual worlds that have virtual currency that can be bought and sold for RL money and allow TPE's to exist as well as services such as Bit Coin. The fact is that laws and regulations regarding virtual currency are just now starting to catch up with the technology and we are apt to see even more regulation in the future not only in the US but by other governments as well. Correct. Although I don't believe that EU governments will follow suit with this. But Linden Lab could have considered adding alternative methods of payment besides PayPal, before cutting all these people off. Now they're just being reckless, and many people will leave because of this and sales inworlds and on the Marketplace will go down for everybody. :-( When it comes to fraud however, SL would just recoup the losses from the exchange regardless if they were using Risk API or not, this has been the case for years now. And apparently fraud isn't that high in SL as even exchanges that weren't using Risk API were doing pretty well, all these years. I guess the bigger issue is with the US government here.

Madeliefste Oh wrote: Rommanno wrote: Well, on Virwox for example the rate was a bit higher, but it was actually cheaper because with Virwox you can make a SEPA transfer to your bank account directly bypassing Paypal, and it would only take 1-2 bussiness days. If transfering through Lindex, Paypal used to charge additional 5% from me as a middleman, and it would a week longer. So without Virwox now, I would be forced to use more expensive and a lot slower Lindex. Paypal never charged me 5%. Paypal charges 1 dollar, at the moment I transfer my money from my SL account to Paypal. When you cash out 50 dollar then the charge is indeed 5%, but when you cash out 1000 dollar, the charge is only 0,1 % You live in America? PayPal is popular in USA, it's unpopular in Europe, because it's inconvenient and expensive. PayPal charges me 2 euros flat plus 3.9%. So, if I withdraw 200 euros I get charged 5%, even more if I withdraw less. This is the case for most Europeans as far as I know, PayPal is an American company geared towards Americans. And there's currency conversion fees.. My bank is absolutely fine with accepting dollars or any other currency, but PayPal insists on exchanging it to my home currency before withdrawing and charges me additional 2.9%. And it's incredibly slow.. Arghh, this just reminded me why I no longer use PayPal.

Ceka Cianci wrote: how long have these other exchanges been around? a couple of years? Well, Vriwox has been operating since 2007. I'm sure others are older than a couple of years as well.

Amethyst Jetaime wrote: Rommanno wrote: ... but I don't know much about laws in the US. Maybe you should find out what the new regulations are before ranting about something you haven't a clue about. Like it or not LL is a US company and must comply with US law. And do you yourself know much about Banking Secrecy Act or just trolling? That clarification didn't tell Linden Lab to ban those exchanges, it's just a course of action that Linden Lab took and it's probably the absolute worst one they could have taken.

LepreKhaun wrote: To try to start a "conspiracy theory" as the OP does is simply a forum troll. I was saying "conspiracy theory" more as a joke. Is it really unbelievable that Linden Lab might be planning to trap people's Lindens in the future?

Qie Niangao wrote: I don't have any special information here, but if I were in the business of trading L$s and got a 30 day notice, I'd d*mned sure stop trading as immediately as I possibly could. Wouldn't anybody? Maybe, they're doing that to give people who don't have paypal a chance to cash out, before leaving SL?

Drake1 Nightfire wrote: Rommanno wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: 1, they didn't ban anything. 2. you can stil do what ever you want in SL. 3. They are saying to use third party exchanges at your own risk. Lindens are sending out emails to 3rd party exchangers demanding them to remove their ATM's from Second Life and cease all Linden trading immediatelly "to keep their SL accounts in good standing", thus ignoring their own TOS rule of 30 days prior notice. This has been confirmed by Virwox and Rock Currency Exchange, just on the top of my head. Yes, they are banning all other exchanges besides Lindex and in a worse possible way. If this is true , then they are banning them from having an inworld presence. the ToS clearly states you are not prohibited from using them. My guess is the trader companies are saying LL is telling them to stop trading to cause and uproar in the community. Why would LL say one thing to us and another to them if it is easily confirmed? Are you serious? This is Linden Lab we're talking about. Heck, they might be creating confusion on purpose to decrease community uproar as they are taking services away from people which are simply superior to their Lindex. LL is not well know for good communication with their users.

LillyBeth Filth wrote: beanster Potato wrote: Yes, security is very important. But hm.. if you go to a RL bank with lets say a bag of coins worth 100$ that you would like the exchange for one 100$ note, you dont leave your bag of coins behind and come back a week or two later to pick up your 100$? Because that's how LindeX seems to be working if i understand correctly? I have never used LindeX before as i've only used Eldex to exchange L$ to Euro's for the past year or 5. They always transferred the money do my paypal instantly or at least within minutes so why cant LL, does it really take them a week or even longer, also for people outside the US? Or do we have to wait even longer? Really? And the rate is the same as LindeX? Interesting. Well, on Virwox for example the rate was a bit higher, but it was actually cheaper because with Virwox you can make a SEPA transfer to your bank account directly bypassing Paypal, and it would only take 1-2 bussiness days. If transfering through Lindex, Paypal used to charge additional 5% from me as a middleman, and it would a week longer. So without Virwox now, I would be forced to use more expensive and a lot slower Lindex.

Malanya wrote: I am sure it doesn't Drake, but the blog posted yet another update just after the first one to the TOS. I am assuming (could be way off here) but since there is a statement that this will take effect 30 days form the notice, LL can't update the actually TOS until the 30 days is up. Just a guess. It's as if the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing and of course nothing is clearly outlined. Can you point a link where Linden Lab is talking about 30 day notice? I can't find that on their blog.

Malanya wrote: Rommanno wrote: Most Europeans who have been using 3rd party exchanges don't use PayPal simply because it's inconvenient in Europe when compared to other payment methods those exchanges were offering by the way. And PayPal doesn't have a very good reputation here because of credit card fraud which happens a lot more often on Paypal. I doubt they will go through all the PayPal hassle just because of Second Life. I have never had a problem with my online business in 12 years of being a PayPal Business Member/Merchant I have accepted Payments from all over the world. I have never had an issue with an European transactions. People complain about everything even if it hasn't affected them directly. PayPal is safe to use and convenient. Well I'm glad for you then. But there a lot of merchants in Europe who don't even accept Paypal because of hackers, fraudsters and fraudulent chargeback risk, plus high fees and slow turnaround time.

Pamela Galli wrote: Rommanno wrote: Most Europeans who have been using 3rd party exchanges don't use PayPal simply because it's inconvenient in Europe when compared to other payment methods those exchanges were offering by the way. And PayPal doesn't have a very good reputation here because of credit card fraud which happens a lot more often on Paypal. I doubt they will go through all the PayPal hassle just because of Second Life. How can credit card fraud happen "a lot more often" when there is no credit card linked to it? "A lot more often" than what? All what "PayPal hassle"? In what way is Paypal inconvenient in Europe? We have Europeans in different threads saying they use Paypal with no problems. You know what I think? Baloney. Why are you getting so defensive? You have a stake in this? Most Europeans use Skrill instead of Paypal. Also, Liberty Reserve and Webmoney are not only a lot cheaper but also a lot faster and safer than PayPal. PayPal requires a credit card to be connected to PayPal account for it to be verified which means that if your PayPal account gets compromised, the hacker can clean out your bank account attached to that credit/debit card as well. And yes, most of online fraud happens on Paypal, it's a well know fact actually. Paypal is slow, charges high rates and on top of that is unsafe.

As you all know recently Second Life changed their TOS and sent letters out 3rd party exchangers demanding them to cease all Linden trading and remove ATM's immediatelly ignoring their own TOS rule of 30 day prior notice. Not only did they do a huge no-no in bussiness world screwed people over who they themselves led to believe that Second Life is a good place for their bussinesses, but they also did this overnight. This is the same, as if I would have a tenant and suddenly tell him/her to move out in thirty minutes. Not very nice Linden Lab. If they were an European company they would get sued over this, but I don't know much about laws in the US. Whatever it is, it's clear that Linden Lab has lost a big portion if not all trust it had left as a bussiness. I think all land barons, creators, etc. if not leaving SL, should at least have a some contingency plan in place in case linden Lab pulls a stunt like that on them in a future.

As you all know recently Second Life changed their TOS and sent letters out 3rd party exchangers demanding them to cease all Linden trading and remove ATM's immediatelly ignoring their own TOS rule of 30 day prior notice. I know there's a lot of theories (greed, banking laws), but I have one more theory why they might be doing this. Userbase is probably declining during past years and there's probably more people selling Lindens than buying them. And it seems that Linden Lab wants to completelly take control of all Linden trade. This might sound far fetched, but could it be that some months from now we'll see an announcement: "From now on all selling of Linden dollars on Lindex has been ceased. You will only be able to buy Linden dollars from now on." Maybe that would be a desperate way for Linden Lab to keep Second Life a bit longer - prevent people from cashing and force them to either forfeit their Lindens or spend them in SL. This would also mean that they wouldn't have to redeem any Lindens left when they will be closing Second Life down. Their TOS says that Lindens are not real money and are not redeemable from Linden Lab anyway. Hell, from their actions these past few days, it's clear that they no longer care about SL long-term or fear civil lawsuits, it's short terms gains now only from existing user base. This is why they added cheap ads on the Marketplace. Just food for thought.

Madeliefste Oh wrote: It is a tradition to sell your merchandise for L$, it is also the most easy way to do business in SL. But with the new TOS, it might become interesting for merchants to accept RL money in stead of L$. For customers who are no longer able to buy L$, it could be a solution to buy virtual goods or in their own currencies. As far is I can see there is nothing in the TOS that obligates a merchant to charge L$ for his merchandise. A micro payment system, like for example Google Wallet, could be used to pay and receive small amounts. Would it be realistic? What are the pros and the cons in your opinion? Not to sound too pesimistic, but most Europeans who were using other exchanges are probably leaving SL right now, for a while or for good. 7 or 8 friends of mine said that they're gonna be laying off SL for now and maybe explore other grids. To add one thing, if you're accepting RL money from EU citizens you might have to charge VAT tax additionally, which varies from country to country but can reach up to 21%. So an item that would cost 1$ to an American, would cost 1.21$ to an European, and there's all the bureacratic hassle with European tax authorities.. This is why it's more convenient to use play currency and that's also one reason why many Europeans are using Liberty Reserve or Webmoney, systems European authorities don't care about.

Pamela Galli wrote: The delay is a security measure. Hackers can't cash out immediately. Third party exchanges like Virwox also had the delay system until you gain more trust from them.

Most Europeans who have been using 3rd party exchanges don't use PayPal simply because it's inconvenient in Europe when compared to other payment methods those exchanges were offering by the way. And PayPal doesn't have a very good reputation here because of credit card fraud which happens a lot more often on Paypal. I doubt they will go through all the PayPal hassle just because of Second Life.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote: Sasha Blumenthal wrote: 1. LL makes another bad move, what's next ? 2. Resident will only be allowed to have a house and a dog ? 3. Doing this exchange service ban, LL is shooting on his own leg ! 4. So many people won't agree giving all their personnal informations to be able to convert L$ currency, no more choice, I call this a dictature ! 5. Remember the casino ban ? Well nothing new here, people will leave simply because LL makes his world less and less free, this was once the moto for SL, let people build something new and original. 6. Now the moto is buy and house a dog, and enjoy your stay ! Good luck to fight against your own the bankrupty LL 1, they didn't ban anything. 2. you can stil do what ever you want in SL. 3. They are saying to use third party exchanges at your own risk. Lindens are sending out emails to 3rd party exchangers demanding them to remove their ATM's from Second Life and cease all Linden trading immediatelly "to keep their SL accounts in good standing", thus ignoring their own TOS rule of 30 days prior notice. This has been confirmed by Virwox and Rock Currency Exchange, just on the top of my head. Yes, they are banning all other exchanges besides Lindex and in a worse possible way.