Marybeth Cooperstone

I understand the need for education programs about Second Life, and to educate people who are already active in SL. However, I do not understand why a university or educational organization would set up an education program in SL. Linden has been advertising to educational institutions and organizations about the advantages of an on-line presence for education. On-line education, particularly short courses and seminars, has been around for many years. There are a number of tools for on-line education such as Blackboard, Sakia, etc. that are used by colleges and universities for online courses. Courses, particularly for short continuing education and professional development, are even taught using Go To Meeting and similar tools. These do not require as much computing power for students. Any laptop and, for some courses, mobile devices such as iPads and tablets can be used. I have taught a few on-line CLE courses (continuing education for attorneys) and taken many. Some involve lecture and discussion, and use cameras and mikes for those that have them. So you see the actual instructor and some of the other students - the real people, not avatars. Some of the tools such as Sakia have built in chat, forum, testing, and other features. On line education, both for college credit and for continuing professional education, are here and will be growing in use. I just don't see why Second Life, or any other virtual world or grid, would have any advantage.

"Oh, if it requires a bra and/or pants; it is not happening today" Yes, I have had days like that!

Perrie Juran: "There are cleavage enhancers (just search the phase) on the Market Place that are essentially tattoo layers that will give the lift and seperate or lift and squeezed together visual affect as may be desired by changing the skin tones/shadows." Yes, I have seen them. They are effective, but only if the skin in that area is exposed. For example, if a female is wearing a low cut top and wants to appear with more cleavage than she would otherwise have. Another way of doing that is to (if you can modify your shape) to have a shape, identicle to the one you usually use but with the slider set for more cleavage and perhaps less gravity, and to put that shape into the outfit you wear when you want more cleavage. Changing from one outfit to another will change your cleavage.

Bob, Unless somehow you find a willing woman, you had better go to a store to feel the wire :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2: As for the difference in RL between underwire and wirefree, look at the Macy's' wirefree bras: http://www1.macys.com/shop/womens-clothing/bras?id=55799&edge=hybrid#!fn=BRA_FEATURES%3DWireless%26sortBy%3DNAME%26productsPerPage%3D100&!qvp=iqvp and Macy's' underwire bras: http://www1.macys.com/shop/womens-clothing/bras?id=55799&edge=hybrid#!fn=BRA_FEATURES%3DUnderwire%26sortBy%3DORIGINAL%26productsPerPage%3D100&!qvp=iqvp You will see that the wirefree bras all have an elastic band on the bottom. That provides the support that the wire would have provided. The underwire bras do not have this elastic band, so many of them have different shape center "gores" (between the cups). In some, the gores are very small. In many, the bottom of the front of the bra is the bottom of the cups. Macy's website shows about four times as many underwire as wirefree bras. That is not untypical. Second life marketplace has many bras that look like wirefree, some that look like underwire. I have no idea why more of them do not look like the typical RL underwire bras, with smaller gores and more elaborate designs on the front. One good thing in Second Life. We don't have to worry about the discomfort of jiggling boobs when we run or dance (walk for some people). But it would be neat to have a "push up" bra that increased cleavage when we wanted it to increase (automatically move the slider) and returned them to normal when the bra was taken off. I realize that the question was asked jokingly, and thanks to Perrie and my friend Bob, and for others, for properly responding.

1) Jill, as Ren said, it is a bug in the latest Firestorm viewer. I did see it on another computer; it was just as you described. Hopefully, since there is a JIRA, it will be fixed soon. It would be a good idea to download whenever a new Firestorm release comes out. 2) This thread seems to have degenerated into an ad hominem (or should it be ad femina?) conversation. Just a few comments: The photograph of me is old. (yes, I have aged). It was used, but is no longer used, by my firm. My colleague Bob (who got me into Second Life) was correct. The hair, skin, and shape were made by another colleague when I first got into SL and is a very accurate duplication of what I looked like at the time. That person is no longer around (changed jobs and moved) and no longer on SL. Certainly better hair, skin, etc. can be made now but I will stick with what looks like me even if it is old. The clothes (not in the photographs but in the SL screenshots) are old, mostly made when I was new to SL and SL was new. I do not offer any clothes (or anything else) for sale. They are only made for my own enjoyment. They are system clothes made using GIMP. If I were making clothes for others, I would use much better tools, but that would take the fun out of it. I don’t have either the time or desire to use blender or other tools or to work with mesh, although you can, I am told, do some great stuff with it.

"I just looked at your Flickr. Are you serious?" Serious about what?

I just tried it, using Firestorm 4.4.2.34167 (latest) and didn't have that problem. Marybeth FLICKR

When will the roll out of SSB be complete? Is there any way of knowing if you are in an area using SSB?

Ann Adams: "..... someone cams me, they will get an immediate not very nice IM." You don't even have to be "not very nice" in your IM. The times I have been cammed when in a private place undressed I have just IMed "enjoying the view?" and the cammer immediately stops and either logs off or TPs away!

"Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your POV), to remove the ability to Cam someone would also require removing the ability to Cam around in general in SL" The only thing I object to is the "Zoom In" feature on the right button using the "People" window (in Firestorm, maybe other names in other viewers). AFAIK, that is the only way to cam into someone in a closed room, such as a dressing room.

I have been in dressing rooms and other closed private places and had people cam me while I was wearing partially made lingerie (for example, a bra with only the outline, boobs exposed. I didn't like it, but in SL I have come to expect it. I know that in RL sometimes perverts have holes in dressing room or bathroom walls for peeping. I like that even less. Fortunately it is rare. I have no problem with people camming me when I am within sight, but at a distance. It is just that the "zoom in" feature (on Firestorm, I assume it is similar on other viewers) allows one to cam in to people who are not in view, such as in a closed room. That is a feature that I could do without.

I am a female in RL and I like being a female, so I am a female in SL. I have no interest in being anything else.

Ann, I do not know if a nighty like that is available in SL. However, in RL I was wearing that exact nighty last nigt, from Cosabella purchased at a RL department store. I uploaded a picture of me in it to Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/marybethcooperstone/8658318818/in/photostream I make clothes in GIMP; I have made several nighties that are very much like that. Madeline, I saw a nighty very much like that pink dotted one at an RL store recently - pink sheer with dots and black trim. Rolig, I have an RL nighty like the one you sell in SL. I like it; my husband really likes it Marybeth FLICKR

Christin, As others have pointed out, the default skins have underwear as part of the skin to make them "G" rated. You need to get a skin from a third party. There are some that are free or very cheap and have all of the correct parts for a female. But let me start my rant: I can accept that the Lindens are prudes. They are very prudish. But having default female skins with a painted on corset is going too far, in my opinion. That will show if you are wearing even a modest bathing suit, particularly a two piece suit. I do not think that it would be too immodest for them to have a starter skin that looks like a store mannequin or a little girls doll (no nipples or pubic hair). Or, if that was too much for them, they could use tiny bikinis that covered the essentials but still allowed two piece bathing suits or underwear. I am rather modest and prudish myself, but I think that LL goes to far sometimes. Marybeth FLICKR

"I wish the women who are around me in RL would wear RL mesh so their boobs would stick out." Bob, your eyeballs would pop out so far they would leave marks inside your glasses:matte-motes-big-grin:

It could be a flasher!:matte-motes-agape: But it is probably a mesn/alpha problem. One reason I don't wear mesh. Marybeth FLICKR

I think that I have seen it happen. I have seen a friend's name come up when I knew he was traveling - on a plane. Then I would try and contact him with no response. I have seen on forums and bulletin boards that had a "who is online" feature that someone would sign in but mistype their user name and their correct password. The two didn't match, so they were not able to get in. But between that attempt and when they retype their name the incorrect name, if it does match someone else user name, would be shown as on-line for a short time. So if I typed username "Marybeth Cooperston", leaving off the "e", and then my pass word, I would not actually log on. But if there was a "Marybeth Cooperston" it would show her as logged on for a few seconds. That is my theory. I will try it with the help of a friend on SL. But, whether it is that or something else, it is most likely just a glitch in SL's software. Marybeth FLICKR

I have been using GIMP for a few years. I think that you can do anything in GIMP that you can do in Photoshop, but without the cost. There is some time for learning, you might as well do that before you spend any big money on software. Marybeth FLICKR

I agree that the Lindens will not accept nipples in G areas. I don't think there is any need to not allow them, but I suspect that most people would agree with keeping them out of G areas. But either way, the TOS should specifically define whether or not exposed nipples are allowed in G areas. The TOS should also make it clear that nudity is allowed in dressing rooms and private homes. I use dressing rooms to check half made undies that I am making. That is exposing private parts, except that I am in a room where no one can see me. While, technically it will work, I don't think that people should have to wear underwear under bathing suits so theycan change in a private dressing room. Although the TOS and incorporated part of the KB are ambiguous, they really cannot be interpreted other than to except such private places as dressing rooms and homes. While most people would not feel comfortable undressing in front of their grandmother or a grade school class, they would feel comfortable undressing in a closed room at their grandmother's house or using a teacher's restroom at a grade school. But that is apparently not obvious to all. So it should be made explicit. Marybeth FLICKR

I think that the TOS and incorporated part of the KB are too ambiguous. They should define "private parts" and should expressly say that exposure of private parts in G areas is not allowed and then have an express exception for dressing rooms and other private areas. Bob is correct in that I do write laws. But they are tax laws, typically for businesses, for states and municipalities that are too small to have their own bill writing staff. The elected legislators decide what they want and I put it into clear and unambiguous language. I have nothing to do with criminal laws but I have heard of criminals getting off because the judge, and sometimes the jury, thought that the law was too vague. I recently talked with a woman state legislator who, with assistance from another lawyer, had to write specific definitions of "private parts" into the law. She was somewhat embarrassed using those terms in public (in a committee) but realized that the law had to be unambiguous. She told me that she knew that her pre-teen son would giggle if he read that law, but she didn't think that pre-teen boys read law books. Same goes with term of service. In spite of the ambiguity, I do not think that the TOS and incorporated part of the KB are meant to prohibit the exposure of "private parts" in a dressing room or in your own home, even if they are in a G area. I think that even the most prudish of the Lindens would agree with me. Marybeth FLICKR

" I used to run a big parcel of G land and would eject people who were running around naked because it was a sim a lot of families i.e. avatar kids came to." I agree that anyone in a G area that is naked or exposing their private parts in a way that can be seen by others should be ejected. But I could not find anything in the TOS that said that you could not be naked in a dressing room or private home. If you know of anything, please give me the cite. I may have missed it. Of course, if you have land in a G area you are free to have a dressing room and post a rule that avatars cannot undress in that dressing room. That would be your prerogative. But why would you have a dressing room and not allow undressing in it? Even knowing that LL is rather prudish (since, as I mentioned, pictures on this forum of me and of my avi showing a bra were removed), I would still have no problem being undressed in a dressing room or private home in a G area. I don't think the Lindens would have any problem either.

Very true Bob. I about chocked on the words "feel comfortable". Taken literally (we lawyers sometimes take things too literally), some perverts could claim that they feel comfortable exposing themselves or worse in front of kids and grandmothers. Yes, Melita, we don't have to use the toilets or shower in SL. But we do change cloths. I would not feel comfortable pulling off my bathing suit in front of grade school kids or other males, but I think that it would be OK to pull off my bathing suit in a dressing room or other private, closed off area. There is a difference in RL, and should be in SL, between being in public and being in private. I think that if you treat G areas of SL like a normal, non-perverted, person would treat RL, you are OK. In a G area of SL your own house, someone else's house to which you are invited, or a dressing room should be OK for undressing. While I can, in SL, change underwear by clicking on "wear" and not exposing myself, sometimes when I am making panties I will upload (as temporary so its free) a tga file with just the waist and leg edges to check that they lineup between front and back. Of course, then I use a dressing room or other private area. I see no problem with that.

"I notice a lot of the fresher noobs actually filling out their RL part of the profile. As an SL'er, I don't really CARE about some stranger's real life. It is of no concern to me, as my RL is of no concern to SL strangers." I am one of those with RL information on my SL profile. I know that many people keep there virtual life separate and quite different from their RL life. I am not that way. There is true information about me -- not my name or the name of the firm where I work but other information about my RL. To me, SL is an extension of RL, I go to a church in SL that is the same denomination as the one in RL I am a member of, and I enjoy chatting about my RL profession with others in the same profession or related professions. However, I know and have no problem with people whose SL lives are quite different from their RL lives. One great thing about SL is people can have avatars that look much different from their real looks and do things in SL that they would not ever even think about doing in RL. I hope it stays that was. This is quite different from Facebook and many other on-line sites and forums. In general, l like to participate in them too. However, I detest Facebook. I do not care what your new kitty looks like or which resturant or bar you just went to. While there are some substantive political, professional, or other discussions on Facebook, it is mostly taken up with useless drivel. When my first kid was young, I did have some on-line discussions with other Moms about toilet training. but that is not something to broadcast to the world on Facebook. There are some people who use SL for both types of activities. For example, I know a state appeals judge, female well over 60, who roleplays as a young male 18th century soldier. She and I have had substative discussions about court procedures (relating to electronic filings) on SL, even though at the time she was dressed as the male soldier. She enjoys both uses of SL. There is a place for forums where people discuss real things, use there real names, etc. but there is also a place for roleplaying, make believe, etc. I hope Second Life stays the same.

"You're not supposed to ever be nude on G land, so I guess people who live on G land have to wear painted on undies or never remove their undies once they have changed clothes elsewhere on M or A land? Not sure how that works." Reading over the Terms of Service (TOS) the only thing I see is information about maturity ratings in the knowledge base, which information is incorporated by reference into the TOS. "General regions are areas where you should feel free to say and do things that you would be comfortable saying and doing in front of your grandmother or a grade school class." (Knowledge Base, http://community.secondlife.com/t5/forums/replypage/board-id/GeneralDiscussionForum/message-id/97035, last accessed 3/1/05) You certainly would not "feel comfortable" appearing nude in front of a grade school class. However, grade schools have restrooms, some designated for men teachers or for women teachers. In a stall in the ladies room, or in the bathroom at your grandmother's house, is certainly an area where you would feel comfortable taking off your clothes. So I don't think that it is a violation of the TOS to be naked in your own home in a G area (provided that you were not in front of an open window or door or in a specifically designated dressing room or changing room (provided that it is not designated as being for the other gender). That said, on two occasions pictures of me wearing a bra (one, my avi and one the real me) were removed even though those pictures were less revealing than those commonly found in ads in newspaper and pictures in the lingerie sections of department stores. So one never knows how prudish the Lindens are. But I don't think that there is any problem being naked in a dressing room or your house,

"Is there any way (such as a "perv alert") to know if someone is watching you when you are in a closed room?" In Firestorm there is some option that places a cross hair on your face with the name of the avatar that is caming you. I have it on, but I don't remember where to turn it on or off. And I do not have SL on the computer I am using right now so I can't check. I have had a number of people cam me, but most of the time when I was in a group discussion, fully clothed. The people were in sight of me, just getting a better look while I was talking, so no complaints. I once had someone with a male name cam me when I was in a dressing room wearing underwear. So I IMed him with something like "enjoy the view". The camming immediately stopped. "[undressing in closed dressing rooms] would be considered OK" ... "that acting like RL is OK" I would consider both to be true. I don't have any problem with people caming others that are not in private and that they can see, even if a long distance away. What I do have a problem with is using the "zoom in" feature in Firestorm (I have heard that it is not in the standard LL viewer) that lets you cam someone who is not otherwise visible to you but near enough to be on you radar. Such as when a person standing near a dressing room cams someone in the dressing room. Marybeth FLICKR