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Charlotte Bartlett

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Everything posted by Charlotte Bartlett

  1. Good Summary - a few tweaks in addition Root Cause: - The change wasn't caused by LL / Tilia / Paypal or Skrill (Money Service Businesses "MSBs" )- but driven at industry level so all MSBs had to comply with how they "code" peer to peer MSBs transactions as a cash advance versus purchase. Fees and Day 0 Interest may be charged: If you use a Credit Card as your funding source in PayPal or Skrill when purchasing Linden Dollars, paying tier etc. The credit card companies globally, whom are taking advantage of this is, growing by the day. Fees and Day 0 Interest currently will not be charged if: Your funding source is your PayPal or Skrill Balance (when funded by debit card or bank account). If you use a debit card directly with LL (personally I do not recommend this due to lack of two factor authentication). Unsure on yet (untested): If you link your credit card directly to Tilia bypassing PayPal and Skrill. If you use a Charge Card (e.g. AMEX) as your funding source in Paypal, Skrill etc.
  2. I promise you it's not a convertible currency if you mean Linden Dollars under that definition because you are not converting ANY currency at any point in the transaction. (I know that sounds like an oxymoron, but it's based on the whole element of token definition). As I have said previously on these forums, does that definition stand up - right now it does based on FinCEN publications, will it stand up in the future.... I suspect not. I'll bet you at least 50 Linden (wait what, now that is gambling so very much joking) but in all seriousness, Linden Dollars is not a virtual currency and you can read (if you really want your eyeballs to hurt) the significant and lengthy legal opinions on specific criteria. From opinions covering 31 CFR § 1010.100(m) and looking at from 2013 onwards when FinCEN first released detailed interpretative guidance on their definitions. If you carrying a USD profit balance due to SL activity that warrants tax being paid, a CPA is something that is well worth the investment as things like the interpretations of the hugely complex regulatory market in the US are becoming incredibly difficult and that extra layer will give you some confidence you have filed correctly. Now my own eyeballs hurts hah!
  3. Did both attract the cash advance treatment/fees? - I feel like we are on team Sherlock Payment Team here....
  4. My CPA would have answered no to that. Simply put Linden Dollar Tokens are not a virtual currency using the specific definitions under FinCEN and IRS (remember how IRS then went all crazy over Fortnite then deleted it from their page in a fit of oh wait a sec). (I trade other currencies, so actually I answered yes to that question, but not related to SL). I wish they didn't call them Linden Dollars - dollars scream currency so I can see why people confuse them. Your CPA should refer to 3.1.1. Acquiring Virtual Tokens under the Tilia TOS etc but mainly how they word how you cash out in USD (it's a refund for your unused tokens regardless of whether you brought those said tokens from another player via the LINDEX). That being said as posted in other long tax worthy threads on here with creators, CPAs from different creators treat things in different ways. Do I think the TOS of Tilia is tested to IRS and other regulatory levels (no but the tax laws in the US are not yet caught up with virtual "things"). And as we all know if the IRS can get their hands on more revenue by saying game tokens are now a form of currency it may happen in our future. Most creators that I know with their CPA have their tax computed on the USD amounts transacted from the LINDEX (never the token side of things so gross amounts match the 1099 form as relevant. One day we will get a definite statement on this - perhaps for our taxes next season!
  5. That's so helpful thanks Rebecca! I also like using Paypal for that same reason. I also am leery of using a debit card directly with LL until they have two factor authentication in place. Due to potential of accounts being hacked and then large sums charged that don't have credit card protection. It sounds like we have managed to properly define it so far. Now let's hope somebody can test when their premium payment or sim tier payment goes out to see what occurs.
  6. Would make sense. as all MSBs had to make the changes across the industry, Venmo, Tilia, PayPal, Skrill etc etc all had to comply. I did a small test today I did a small transaction on Venmo and funded with a UK credit card to a US person. The UK Credit Card is pending and I spoke to the bank - sure enough... peer to peer. "cash advance". So this is going global. I really want to know too I hope it's just the Lindex part (that makes sense and seems to comply with the recoding requirement). Just interesting though as if defined as a "peer" transfer why just Lindex - and the whole definition of cash (and back to that FinCEN aspect rears it head). I find this very interesting and the complexity is going to just keep growing. It's like peeling an onion though to nail down workarounds for this - basically don't fund with a credit card on a MSB if you can avoid it is the best advice right now. We just need Tilia to now allow the purchase of Linden Dollar Tokens with BitCoin, that I purchased via a contracts for differences over the counter option, funded by my UK Venmo account which debited my US PayPal who used my French credit card to really make this fun 😅. I can't wait for this to happen (I am only half joking)...
  7. You are sadly may be getting impacted by the "money transfer" reclassification that credit card companies forced PayPal etc to do - we thought just American Banks but sounds like the Aussies could now be in the mix too (or this is a total red herring!). (a) you may wish to add a card directly to Second Life and bypass PayPal to see if that (i) reduces your fees and (ii) works around the money transfer classification issue. Will you let us know how you get on as a lot of us are interested in this particular topic atm! (b) as mentioned above place cash into your PayPal before using the Lindex and switch your funding method on the agreement (pre-approved/reoccuring payments in PayPal) to fund from your balance first. I would recommend removing your credit card if you can and use your bank account directly. IF you are getting errors (having multiple alts using the same PayPal account may cause some challenges) delete ALL your approved PayPal funding agreements with Tilia/LL (in PayPal directly) and start afresh with one account using one PayPal account so it sets up a new funding agreement linked to your balance and bank and not a credit card. Let us know what you manage to do and if you see more fees?
  8. This is a really good point - I hope more people post once they check charges to narrow it. As if both are "powered" by Tilia and treated different it tells us Tilia is coding them that way (which they aren't being transparent on, nor is it included in their TOS how they treat each transaction - a compliance gap they need to close)....
  9. I think you may be confusing apple and oranges. The FIN-2013-G001 (if that is what you are referring to) rule has nothing to do with the fact banks have changed how they view MSB transactions and who forced MSBs to recode certain types of transactions to allow them to ID them as cash advances to they could charge more interest and fees. This is all about credit cards/bank fighting back against MSB Apps people are using to move money to take their slice of the pie. Same with the IRS aspects that doesn't impact this particular problem. As a side note FinCEN has not recognized Linden Dollars (a game token) as a convertible centralized virtual currency (at this point in time). There was a poorly written "opinion" blog piece in 2013, that was then repeated (ouch) in Investopedia by James Chen who copy and pasted parts of a blog post from 2013 without doing [any] research in 2018 - lazy stuff that he should have long since corrected but hasn't. I posted about that piece previously and the issues with it. The OP issue is nothing to do with the FinCEN, IRS etc, albeit those are all interesting subjects and are kind of connected when you think Tilia now acts as a MSB to ensure they meet US regulatory requirements. (as a piece of history LL was the registered MSB before they split out Tilia - so the classification hasn't changed just the company name/structure). The issue remains here that Tilia (MSB) - > PayPal (MSB) is now classified as a transfer (or peer to peer payment) in some of the examples above due to market changes I have mentioned above. So once it reaches - > Credit Card company they apply the new methodology to maximize their fees and charges accordingly as a cash advance. It's not going to change and will only expand further, so the workaround is hopefully for users to go Tilia - > Credit Card company to cut out the MSB -> MSB part and remain classified as a purchase versus transfer (hopefully albeit I suspect that's on the radar too for the future if banks have their way).
  10. That's not how Credit Card Company Cash Advances categorize purchases on a service. It's not about reason, but categorization. What is more interesting here is how PayPal are treating Tilia now it's becoming fully fledged and how more importunely once a standard is set how regulators may view it (Finra etc).... Including you are right, but Credit Card companies do not recognize (yet) Linden Dollars as a cash instrument. But they are surely recognizing Tilia as a MSB....
  11. Not sure how that would help at all....somebody somewhere in that supply chain is classifying transactions from Tilia - > PayPal - > Credit Card as a Cash Advance. Resetting PayPal does nothing at all. I suspect it's PayPal based on the information Tilia is providing and perhaps how PayPal is classifying Tilia as a MSB (like those Venmo examples in the New York Time's piece). Here is an example of a bank credit card agreement... I checked mine "A cash advance is a charge to get cash or cash equivalents, including travelers cheques, gift cheques, foreign currency, money orders, casino gaming chips, race track wagers or similar offline and online betting transactions. " Linden Dollars are not any of those, unless banks are now actually saying Casino Gaming Chips are Linden Dollars (if so, that's a whole different ballgame - no pun intended). Linden Dollars have never been a cash equivalent...
  12. Now I am all nostalgic.... some old prim things I made!
  13. Oh that sucks, sorry to hear that. At least we know now that MSB to MSB will be a cash advance for credit cards.
  14. Apologies - my error, I thought they were having the issue with Mesh where it doesn't count properly - just realized it's a different one. Please ignore my post!
  15. Agree as the banks will decide. And most will move to charging...
  16. Only if via PayPal - (as far as we know per posts here) . Also it's only some banks "taking advantage" of the new classifications for payments so far, so it may be less widespread (to start with). Personally if I am paying anything via Tilia using Credit Cards (even if PP not is in the middle) I would be checking the transactions very carefully. Banks I know who are charging - Bank of America Banks so far that may not be charging (yet) - Citibank and Chase The real question will be is how Tilia code those direct transactions as if transfer, the banks can charge.....
  17. I suspect that Tilia powers that transaction (credit card versus PayPal too). So the Credit Card company will levy the fees regardless (I wouldn't risk it but somebody could test it I guess!). Would be good to know if the bank /credit card company directly recognizes Tilia as a MSB and can categorize the payment correctly as a purchase. The 10 USD fee has been a common complaint @DellaLaBella - there is actually a New York Times piece on how Venmo users got hit with the same fees after things changed in April of this year. Tilia has a responsibility to warn you of fees (imho) - not sure if their screen does. You may be able to get your credit card company to refund you - furnish them a copy of the Tilia TOS (available on their website) and state you were making a purchase for game tokens to use (so not a cash instrument nor a transfer - it was a purchase). The card company may relent and refund you on the first occasion. Also pay that card off as the interest is always terrible on cash advances and credit card companies place any payment below the full statement amount to that "last". They are very crafty.... This is also timed where Tilia started to power things... so your credit card company/PayPal see it as money from one MSB (them) to another MSB (Tilia) - I suspect that is why purchases are now looking more like "transfers" which attract the credit card cash advance red carpet treatment from banks.
  18. Coming back to the OP: 1. Back in approx April 2020 the banking industry did a few "changes" with how they treat Money Service Businesses (MSBs) like PayPal. Basically it opened the door to allowing them to treat charges to your credit card from those MSB as a cash advance, basically so they can start charging you interest right off the bat on a credit card. 2. PayPal was forced to comply with the industry change and they re-coded transaction types. Some banks can even tag on a fee as well as calculation of earlier interest. 3. That being said, this only applies if the transaction shows as a transfer versus a purchase. 4. The bad news is if you have a recurring payments approved within PayPal for Tilia/LL - it may treat it as a transfer not a purchase. I think you will have to do two things: A - Contact PayPal to clarify if point 4 was how this specific transaction was coded for you so you know if you are dealing with a transfer versus purchase. Then you probably need to contact Tilia to see how they are coding the debit they are making so see which one is thinking it's a transfer versus purchase. B - Once you have that clarified if they treated as a purchase and NOT a transfer you can then contact your bank to dispute the fees. I think sadly it's going to be a transfer based on the PayPal TOS (last change was June 2020) and with the industry change above., Your bank is one of the ones now charging the fees/interest. I would remove that Credit Card from PayPal and link to a debit card or bank account to avoid more fees. Bank of America are one of the banks charging as a fyi. Note I would still dispute the fees/interest regardless as unless you re-read the PayPal TOS in great detail it would have been impossible for you to know this if a previously set up reoccurring payment. I think Tilia personally should be doing a warning (like Venmo and PayPal do when using their apps) around the potential for fees and charges (if they don't already - I don't buy LDollars). Tilia's TOS doesn't clarify how they are coding transactions, they need to expand on their TOS in fairness to make this clear to consumers. As a follow up if you have the ability and don't carry a balance on that card I would immediately make a payment to clear it to zero to cut off further interest charges.
  19. True, but that doesn’t meet the definition of a convertible currency (Tilia make sure they stay on the right side of that particular regulation as a MSB). You are simply trading your tokens with other players for USD.
  20. Linden Dollars are not a convertible currency - you are buying game tokens. So this is not covered by the same exclusions as Bitcoin etc.
  21. Who remembers this thread - it was from 2018 asking for a survey from LL for merchants to be able to articulate at a wide community level on what better e-commerce solutions we needed. It went off the rails a bit - but the genuine ask was for LL to conduct a survey online so merchants could provide their needs so LL could use the intel to shape benefits for us. I am bumping this, because LL had said during a meeting we attended earlier this year, that once the "cloud" work was completed for sims - things would open back up on development for things like e-commerce (Marketplace). Well, as that was (still is?) slated by end of this year - surely now would be a good time (with the potential sale etc) to have a good handle on what merchants need. We did get store managers (and I think if we ban somebody in-world they can't purchase - not sure I don't have anybody banned!) and I think some Gacha stuff - but never got our survey. I still want a survey please (2 years later)..... is this just me ha! (it's ok if it is).... @Grumpity Linden 😂 please don't hate me for necro-posting and I hope this doesn't cause the OT stuff to come back apologies! ❤️
  22. Are you using AV Sitter or similar? If so you may want to to put the below into a script and then add it to the item so it sets the Sit Target (not sure how you are setting them per your comment). default { state_entry() { integer i; integer s; for (i = 1; i <= llGetNumberOfPrims(); ++i) if (llList2Integer(llGetLinkPrimitiveParams(i, (list)PRIM_SIT_TARGET),0)) ++s; llOwnerSay("Sit targets assigned: " + (string)s); llRemoveInventory(llGetScriptName()); } }
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