Kaiser Bogomil
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Posts posted by Kaiser Bogomil
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a new addition to the TPV policy reads: I.e
2.k : You must not provide any feature that alters the shared experience of the virtual world in any way not provided by or accessible to users of the latest released Linden Lab viewer.
I.e., don't do anything that would actually improve the users shared experience beyond what LL does.
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I was recently booted from a sim because of my viewer ( yeah I'm a technologist. ). Yes I have done quite a bit to go beyond the normal SL viewer & now & I am getting "no thanks" for my efforts. Both by the Lindens and "Phoenix" zealots.
Ya know ... really this is such a sad state of technology where ppl use position rather than argument or a contest only to suppress a challenge, innovation and productivity. As long as this happens we shall just burn rubber.
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The Lindens are now doing rollbacks without warning ( your changes are getting deleted. A roll back is .... You fix something one day & the fix is gone the next.)
... makes my fixes look pretty bad... visitors don't know that the Lindens are doing it and it just makes my biz appear sloppy and unprofessional.
And while this might be JIRA material ... I think the community should know about this.
someone did this - not me ... (I suspect a Linden - I doubt a hacker .. my password is longer than 8 characters mixed case alpha-numeric characters)... I fixed it by placing it on the ground. The next day it was up in the air again. And it had been on the ground for months.
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If each new feature requires a new viewer - a full release of the entire viewer - It says to me that the Lindens didn't learn the idea of modularity. Its a concept taught usually in a freshman's first course in computer programming. I don't get it ... Why continue with mudularity - it pisses guys like me off. I'd love to add new modules (loadable libraries) - the kind that fit my vision - not Linden Lab's.
And besides when you practice mudularity it infects the entire development process. A complete global knowledge of the viewer is required to build and test .. build & test on several hardware & software platforms. A process that is often slow - and costly! and risky. I'm still seeing bugs pop up that are years old. Can you imagine if Microsoft had to test and debug their entire OS every time someone released a new application? Or Google Apps or iPhone Apps???
Did you know that when google.com arrived on the internet that nobody had to write a new browser for it??? Or yahoo.com or dogpile.com or lycos.com or mamma.com ... etc. etc.
If I were you - Linden Labs - I'd create a team dedicated to creating a complete Document Object Module for the viewer. If you don't Google will. .. OTOH ... looks like they've taken a huge step in that direction already.
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if you project it on a flat surface (there is math involved) .. you can can kind of with a bit of scripting.
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ok then -
I did the Moreland Grove viewer and I hate V2.x. But it wouldn't be fair just to say I hate it just because.
OTOH most (not all) of the critisms of the V2.x UI have been posted & talked about ad nausem here .. in groups and other forums. What's not to get?
What I would have done is not change the user interface or have kept the changes minimal & tried to evolve it in smaller steps. MS made this same mistake with Vista & pissed of a lot of users. SL is a community and like a living organism itself... and like a living thing it needs to adapt along with changes made by LL. AND its a two way street. If LL makes changes that show disrespect for the community .. the community will respond in kind. I don't think that's too much of a surprise.
On the other hand, as a software engineer, I do like the modular plugins - but I've read the docs for them & they still fall way short of my needs.
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I would like a check box in mine & everyone else's profile that gives us permission by the profile owner to export our own paid for prims to the other grids. Or on each prim an addional permission check box that allows the export of that prim if and only if the avi is the owner of the prim and the prim has copy permissions.
The market outside of SL has potential - I'd like to take advantage of that.
(and besides ... if SL gets sold I'd like a safe place for everything I've paid for.)
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Well Void - if the thread has been deleted I guess its your word against mine. I guess its up to the readers to judge the truth for themselves.
While I was doing development, alpha and beta tests... I was only interested in getting things written, tested, and fixed and yes I said very little about my viewer period. I did announce it & asked for testing help. And since I didn't/don't work for either you or Linden Labs and was not seeking LL listing approval.... I have the freedom to set my own job requirments and schedule even if you don't personally approve. Believe it or not... I can't do everything at once. I'm not rich .. no staff etc. And this feature took a lot of work - work that I can't afford to pay for (guys who can do this kind of work make $80K USD plus a year. ) So I finished the viewer first and then finished off the listing requirments ... that way the Lindens can evaluate the finished product. I dono just made sense to me.
Yep I redirect hackers intentionally.
the content that visitors see first is a list of features are all presented as information.... kind of hard to hide something away in a 3 page web site. And what you might want to see first ... well you can do your viewer and present things in the order you like best.
Yep .. Slim Prims are enhancements to my bussiness .. hmmm golly what was I thinking???
And btw ... making them available to everyone outside of my business is actually easy to do - if I could afford a Slim Prim server for every Linden region and if the cost were justified I might
And yes if you want features similar to those I offer you will need to buy 4 adjacent island sims (you can get a sim for quite a bit less now than the Linden price now too) . But then even with that and with double prim sims you'll still only get 120,000 prims. On my sim I can rez 3,170,000 slim prims. And because of how I've isolated my microsims visitors can rez all of their 10k prims out to the full 512m x 512m with very little impact on neighbors. And rather than pay for a 4 full sims where your tier is $1180 USD a month for the 4 sims a tenant only has to pay about $1.50 USD (yes one dollar and fify cents USD.) a month (L$100 a week)... As I have said before .. its like shared hosting.... it has many of the features of dedicated hosting and at a much cheaper price but like shared hosting you don't get all of the features. But I do plan on adding more features. Like generalizing the idea so that other ppl will be able to host their own Slim Prims - have the huge build spaces - and all of the other features I've listed as well the new features I have planed.
And yes there are nasty things any software vendor can do once you have installed the product. But as I have said before ... I have nothing to hide - my source is all there. If you can't read it .. get someone you trust to read it. They'll know how to read it so that they don't have to read the whole thing.
Void - go read my 3 web pages & digest... then my source... build it .. verify the matching binaries then go visit and see for yourself.
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An excerpt to the revisions follows ..
'Welcome t'Second Life! This hyar agreement (this "Agreement" o' th' "Terms of Service") dexcribes th' terms on which Linden Research, Inc. an' Linden Research United Kin'dom, Ltd, cuss it all t' tarnation. (colleckively "Linden Lab") offer yo' access t'Second Life. "Second Life" o' th' "Service" means th' multi-user online service offered by Linden Lab, includin' its Websites, Servahs, Linden Sof'ware, Linden In-Wo'ld Content, an' User Content (as them terms is defined in this hyar Agreement). This hyar offer is corndishuned on yer agreement t'all of th' terms an' corndishuns corntained in th' Terms of Service, includin' th' policies an' terms linked t'o' otherwise referenced in this hyar Agreement.'
I can't post a link to the full text ... if I did the moderator bot would delete the thread but .. if you look in my profile you can get the link to the full TOS.
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all in the TOS
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this is in reply to Void Singer
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks. )
I do try not to reply to posts like Void's but because this is a public thread I'm afraid I have to defend myself here.
Here is my privacy policy and for ease of reading it is on my download page right along with my disclosures, checksums etc. and the full source code. Which is all free to download for everyone. You can read it to verify it is 100% in complience with the TPV listing requirements. And furthermore if anyone wishes to verify that the executables match the source they are free to build it and compare executables both for Mac (gcc4) & Windows (VC9). All of this has been there since Nov 15, 2010. I just added the Mac though - Jan 17.
BTW Void you really should stick to points that you can verify otherwise well .. you know.
Void said:
"what has been failed to be mentioned is that all this extra is hosted on the OP's servers,"
You didn't read my privacy policy did you?
Void said:
"...had complied with the rest like available source (it aint) and privacy policies (non existent), etc ad nauseam."
Again .. read the above link.
And again: see Item 3 on : http://www.primphilia.com/store/MorelandGrove.html
it says:
Up to 10,000 Slim Prims! Because Slim Prims are stored on the Moreland Grove Server rather than the SL asset servers they are not counted against your prim count.You also imply that I store passwords on my server. I do NOT and would never never do that!!! AND this is such an outrageous accusation... and yes I did want to be able to identify a user at log on so that I could give him access to their slim prims via their User Name and only their user name - NOT both .... AND because the Lindens didn't budge on this I found a way around this - & this is all in my source code if you want to verify what I say. You will also notice that ALL permisions are respected period. With an addional restriction imposed by the TPV requirements - only the creators of prims may export to my server - even if the prim has full perms and they're not the creator - you can verify this fact if you wish. ( you don't want ppl to question your integrity do you? )
And yes currenlty the only place you may store Slim Prims is in a Slim Prim scene. I'm sure I'll put in a slim prim inventory soon ... because it is awkward to buy a slim prim right now ( but you can do it - that was added in the last release. )
Anything else you'd like to accuse me of Void? & yeah boy did I do a bad job of hiding my identity eh??? lol!!! ...hint: I wasn't trying to.
Oh yeah I'm a software engineer - I have level 1 security clearance granted to me by the federal govt. of the USA, have writen security protocols for well known banks and several other kinds of well known businesses - I've also designed software for companies known world wide. If you think I need to deceive ppl to give me their assets - you clearly are out of your depth.
And as I have said earlier, Void, this is all open source you can even host your own slim prims if you like.
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Dale - you've got it ... except that a scene (or store) having only 4096 sq m of Linden space can have up to 256,000 square m (that's not a typo) of space with my viewer and because I do host the Slim Prims on my server I can offer up to 10,000 per scene as opposed to the typical 50-100 Linden prims you'd typically get at a mall. Here's a pic of a sample scene I built on a 64m x 64m parcel. This picture was taken at an altitude of 1200m - note the water.
Note that the actual view space extends beyond the Linden boundaries. I.e., from the center of the unit out to 256m in every direction. The house is a 3 stories. I'm in the picture too but because of the size of the scene I'm just a few pixels. And to stick to the subject of this post - I get a 50% or better frame rate than the SL or other incarnations of the SL viewer.
BTW because I do host the prims on my server I can add as many different kinds of prims/ tools/ features as I like. ( I would love to tell you what I have planned but then my competitors might "scoop" me.)
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The Lindens are redirecting their marketing focus: see
http://www.ispionage.com/research/default.aspx?q=secondlife.com&refid=3f2b044b
Note in particular the keywords they are using to advertise with. You may also want to check out the search terms and see what turns up. Should raise your eyebrows.
and an excerpt from the tao of Linden:
Work Together.
We are engaged in a wildly ambitious and complex endeavor. We need to take on risk and accept the occasional failure. But we dream, stumble and win only together. This requires a level of creative collaboration you won't find in many companies. You must not only respect but actively seek out differing views, and then find closure after dissent to move forward together. When you look back, do so to find ways to improve rather than to blame.
Walk in our Residents' shoes.
We are blessed by some of the most informed, passionate, committed customers imaginable. They are our reason for being, they are our world, and we call them Residents. They are an insuperable source of advantage and an awesome responsibility. In every choice you make, consider how your choice will impact their experience.
(Note that this post will be deleted... keep an eye on it and see if the Lindens are practicing their Tao)
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I love Second LIfe ... but ...
What has happen to the economic data - graphs and spreadsheets?
Why is the number of ppl online not shown on the viewer's login screen?
And what ever happened to that web only client?
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According to NPR... the help the Japanese really need is search and rescue. And they are actively asking for professional search & rescue PEOPLE - NOT MONEY!. Japan is one of the richest nations on the planet. Nevertheless .. there are cons who are exploiting this situation telling ppl Japan needs your money and collecting $$ on behalf of themselves.
Sadly because there is zero acountability for this kind of con in SL the cons come here. I have actually had one guy ask me to hack passwords for him. Obviously if you can get into someone's account you can give his Lindens to yourself & cash in and its not a crime - especially not for the Linden "family". Read the TOS.
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yep .. The Linden's don't really support their browser. They do sometimes but its spoty.
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It is possible but the Lindens won't approve you taking your prims out of SL. Even though they belong to you. Read the TPV listing requirements.
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The Problem
The veritical space of any sim extends to a height of 4096 meters. Getting the most out of that space can be done by using rezzers. The rezzers, however, are a pain to use. None of them record all prim changes ( e.g., linking, unlinking, resizing, texture changes etc. ) and because they run server side they consume both sim CPU and bandwidth which leads to lag. Additionally if the rezzers rez content within your drawing distance you will again be forced to download & render content that you may not want to see. This is particularly annoying in skybox communities.
I'm sure it goes without saying that if the visitor is wearing lots of hires textures, glow, face lights, and scripted attachments - the load is much worse. And A successful SL business needs lots of visitors.
A business setting up a shop in a busy mall might seems like a good idea. The problem though is that the performance of your business will suffer because rather than dedicating bandwidth to your customers and rendering only your prims your visitors will be forced to download the prims at neighboring stores. Furthermore, if you spend money on classified ads - you are not only paying for your traffic you are also paying to advertise for your neighbors. Some ppl actively exploit this by setting up shop next to parcels who have paid to get that top spot in the classifieds. The parasite has his signs up to draw traffic to his business and will even IM your visitors to try to sell them on his stuff. Some ppl will send ad bots (automated avatars) to places that rank high in the classifieds hoping that the picks in the ad bots will bring them traffic.
Solutions?
A partial solution is to use that vertical space to separate the visible prims and require that visitors set their draw distance to say 64m. That would reduce the load on the sim and help speed up prim rendering. If you live in a skybox that might be adequate. Its worth mentioning that viewers like phoenix and imprudence and kokua have an adaptive step size that scales the draw distance incrementally so that, initially, you only download and render prims near you. Not the best solution since after the draw distance has been scaled to the full distance set in your preferences, say 512m, you still end up with the same problem - it just happens slower.
Another solution is to divide your sim or parcel into two "use types". The upper area say from 300m up for your sub spaces where people download and rez only the content that you define for you and your visitors - pretty much like having your own personal island sim. And leave the ground for your communal area.
This seemed like a reasonable solution to me so I implemented it ... I created a "microsim" to manage the private content and the "Slim Prim" as the private content. And to make this idea work I used the Imprudence viewer as the context controller. When a visitor enters a private volume only the content defined for the volume is rezed. And because the real rendering power is in the viewer I extended the build area to 4 times the Linden's 64K. I could have gone even further since today's technology is up to the task. Furthermore I have divided my own sim up into 317 of these volumes where each one can render up to 10,000 Slim Prims. And because each volume behaves like an island sim you don't see the content rezed around you. Well almost - there is a small bug :( ... its technical so I won't elaborate. But if you walk to the edge of the volume you can see sky junk if its less than 64m from you. Its fixable :)
I have done a simple benchmark to compare frame rates for 3 viewers: the Linden's 2.x, the latest Phoenix and my own "Moreland Grove".
Moreland Grove: 50 FPS Phoenix: 35 FPS Second Life: 30 FPS Note that I started each client individually all on ultra. Set the FOV to the middle position (slightly wider than the default). Before recording the numbers I let each viewer settle for 10 mins. To get them I watched the stats bar for about min and estimated where the average was. Note that the numbers are kind of rough and will vary depending on your hardware.
You can verify these results yourself if you like - the source code and executable are100% free and open source and if you like you can host your own slim prims on your own servers. The server I'm using costs me about $15 a month and I'm currently hosting about 50k slim prims... though I have only had it up to serving 100 ppl .. still it did fine. (well there were a few bugs ... still are :( ... something about an RC3032 @%$) but not performance related.
That said you should know that there is a decent solution to some of the lag problems - I do have a complete solution though I haven't implemented it yet - kind of seems pointless given that my implementation is 100% in compliance with the supposedly self certifying TPV listing requirements. And has been rejected anyway on the subjective grounds "That it breaks the shared experience" ... well... of course it does... who really wants to share lag & a sky full of junk?.
There are others who have objected to my idea as well, obviously some are going to be competitors and VR real estate speculators and oddly enough even though they can host their own slim prims they still object. The most common complaint is that my viewer is not Linden approved. As if that really means that much. I can see the need for a white list for viewers but I can also see a need a list for "not approved but in compliance" - which of course would mean "The really good stuff is on this list".
And whats seems devious is that the Lindens invited us here to build our creations and offer their services & then publicly condemn perfectly good ideas that uses their platform. Really - why bother offering a VR service... why would anyone use it if the Lindens are just going to condemn your application?
I could go on about "its not what you say its what you do" that matters. But life is too short.
BTW... my idea isn't new really .. this same kind of evolution has happened already with dedicated servers. Today ...web hosters offer both shared servers ( analogous to my microsim ) and dedicated servers ( ala the Lindens Sim ). Its a fairly obvious idea ... it will probably happen eventually.
BTW: I like the spell checker :) and works in the HTML view too! nice! (too bad about the rest of the forum eh?)
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We're talking Moreland Grove
With up to 10,000 slim prims - you can build a forest, a grassy meadow,
a big green house filled with ferns & flowers, a mansion, an elegant formal garden,
and even a huge castle with out feeling like you have to torture your prims to
get that desired look.What's a slim prim? Its the kind of prim that does't cause lag all over a sim!
Don't take my word for it! try it out. Right now!
Get 9 friends and prove it for yourself!There is even a premade scene of 10,000 slim prims just so you can see for yourself.
Try walking around or flying around inside of it ... have your friends do the
same. To do this with 100,000 Linden prims would simply be imposible. Right now
we have 317 units each capable of displaying 10,000 slim prims on one sim. That's
3,170,000 slim prims on ONE SIM.How does it work? You'll see the 10,000 slim prims only for your unit. And
not see the other 90,000 that your friends rez. Your 9 friends will see only
the scenes they chose and not see yours. Not even if they could cam over to it.Also, because a slim prim can't contain anything - like scripts they simply don't
have the potential to cause scripting lag.Prove it for yourself .. compare frame rates with a draw distance of 512m using
the Linden viewer or .. any other viewer. On the Moreland Grove property,
The Moreland Grove viewer is 30% faster. (depending on your hardware) Even
when there are hundreds of thousands of other prims being viewed on that sim.Oh yeah - you can build up to 10 of your own scenes (10k slim prims in each one).
There's more of course - to use that many slim prims you needs space!
Our plots reach outward from the center of your skybox to 256m in every direction
Yes - you can place your slim prims on a plot that is a full 512m of width depth and height.And If you don't want to build from scratch use one of our templates or
just move into one of our premade scenes. They're all gorgeous and come with
some sweet surprises ... pose balls :)And there's more! at altitudes of over 300m you can enjoy property with
full waterfront - the kind that reaches out to the horizon in every direction!Oh yeah - and a complete security system and A free radio offering over 40,000 stations.
Yes! All in a skybox!
So what's the catch? Its a holo deck inside of a Linden cube that's 64m on a side.
If you leave the cube - the scene vanishes and you're back in regular Linden
space. That might almost sound like a bad thing.. but it has a plus. People
on the outside of your cube only see a building floating in the sky -
they don't see you or your spectacular scene :). You get the advantage of
the huge space & privacy! And they get the advantage of not downloading
the content for your scene.want to know more ... check out http://www.primphilia.com/store/MorelandGrove.html
Want more land? Think Moreland Grove!
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If you're an experienced and creative builder and would like to make a few L$ Then come build some cool scenes for me!
I'm paying from 5-10K per scene - if its good... I'm picking the best at the end of April.
you get up to 10,000 slim prims
a build area of 512m x 512m ( that's 256,000 square meters ... a normal sim is 64,000 )
and more!
and its Free now for artists ( ok L$1 ) until the end of April.
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This is not a joke - but it should be
in General Discussion Forum
Posted
Yes I agree. And I'd add that it says something about LL. If you compete with LL, and you're winning they can & will hurt you.
And the features TPV developers implement now are limited to LL's approval - which would be fine if LL had some vision and played fair. Its their actions that define them, not the words. And now it is very clear "who they are".
TPV developers don't work for Linden Labs and have visions that go beyond LL's ability and/or imagination. And now LL is explicitly supressing the ambitions and creativity of TPV developers.