Andred Darwin

Maybe you are right, it is what it is though ...

It was not meant to be an insult... I apologize if it did! Peace!

feedback.secondlife.com, I don't disagree with you, you are probably right, my opinion actually would not even matter specially with avatars cause I dont really change my avatar at all... your opinion would matter a lot more I guess... maybe they could change the name from Midday to something else more related to building and use another as Midday... I don't make the rules... I dont know about the old JIRA, but there is not even one "bug report" at feedback.secondlife.com about how the Midday affects the avatar skin rendering yet... I dont they think they will read the forums... Its a lot of "work" to read forum threads sometimes. I'm not sure why I'm getting replied on those things... I'm not saying its perfect... that was just my opinion (be good, be trash, which most likely seems to be... ) I cannot do anything about it... but I can use the recommended channel to report bugs or feedback... everyone here can...

This is my personal experience, but, I've seen many bugs being fixed quite quickly now, some of those where I created the ticket.. and the ones not fixed yet, being actually investigated in-world... (I could not say the same thing a few years ago... also Im not anything special, just a regular SL player... I do try to use the recommended channels to report issues though..) As of feedback, I'm not sure if you use Discord... at the content-features channel as an example, quite frequently the Devs are sharing some new features, sometimes asking for feedback, sharing build areas to test some new features ( in the beta grid as an example, region Rumpus 2048, you can try the new "early builds" with mirrors along with other features... using the viewer from the branch "featurettes"... quite cool actually ) , providing "test viewers" in a quite healthy conversation (no "24 grit sandpaper attitude there")... and things do move forward once you see what they are working on... That was just not possible a few years ago... also I have not seen any company that would do that.. (Devs may not respond or see direct messages though, unless something they were expecting... neither should... or they would go nuts!) Mirrors is another example of something they changed based on feedback (mirrors are really "performance expensive" for any gaming engine and add that to SL, is not an easy task)... several LSL functions were added in past few months, maybe more than a few years in the past... the "performance improvement" since 2021... we dont even need to mention right... (a huge improvement... ) I think its better. back in 16/17... felt more like it was abandoned (probably not true... but that's what felt like).. I'm sure no one can say its perfect, maybe will never be (maybe will always be far from perfect)... but, its great to see its not stagnant... its moving forward... and they seem to be more accessible... I still don't understand why some things that could be called "critical" are not fixed before releasing features... but... its not really up to me to understand is it? All I can do is share feedback... As of forums... I don't believe its the best place to share bugs or offer feedback... specially SL forums, maybe its great to see other users opinions and best bets... even that... quite rare...

Its not a democracy... for good or bad, someone there has to decide what feedback/bug they would work on (its just the way it is) ... and they are the same ones that will "live" with the results, disappointments a part... 20 years is not too bad... remember when we could not even "teleport" back in the day? As users all we can do, is share what we see ( feedback.secondlife.com )... if we think it's important... As of "ignoring feedback", it got much better since the new ownership which is great!

I think you are raising some really good points ... some of those seemed to be worked on right now... I'm sure you would hate the early PBR viewer's from last year, hehehe ... at the same time, it's great to see how much it improved from what it was. Maybe try to use the feedback website ( feedback.secondlife.com ) to share your points, specially that scene where your saw that drop in FPS... I know they look at it (from personal experience), and they can profile the scene, to see if or what could be improved. That is the best tool I think to offer thoughts and in some cases even make a difference, any dev team needs feedback ("24 grit sandpaper attitude" doesn't help though, hehehe ). Just don't expect that whatever you will raise or bring to attention will be either fixed or considered right away (hopefully they will), that is just the way it is.. I'm sure they go through them, and in weekly meetings they decide what would go to the "board" of todo's... (look at github commit's... ), we could not say the same a few years ago.

I respect your opinion that PBR may drive users out of the grid... but I dont believe it will be the case... PBR will be the next step... same it was Mesh back in the day... some also believed it would be the end of SL... here we are... I also respect your opinion that PBR only benefits creators... and that you believe it doesn't look that good, who knows how many will think the same way... I think its awesome... and hopefully it will do the same that mesh did for the grid... I believe trying to balance how legacy items are rendered and PBR will probably be (or already is) the biggest challenge... legacy items will look at bit different (its a new rendering engine)... As of the need of a new PC... that is unfortunate, but depending on the current machine... may well be the case... (I really enjoyed using for quite a long time the machine I had before this one, for almost 7 years... things change... I dont make the rules... In my case, I thought it was worth to replace it, cause I like SL a lot, and took a while to save money for it, and until them, I just used what I had... )

I'm not a big fan of the fact that you would have to pay quite a few bucks for Substance... but.. its well worth depending on the amount of items you want to bring in-world either to sell or use yourself... (I regret to not have used before... Blender is great and is free... but Gee... I can do the same task with a lot more materials within much less time... in fact, now I have some extra time to maybe learn a bit more and improve on this hobby... time saved for me is more valuable... may not be the case for others ) And its not about side... and its not the first time seeing those exchanges... Did anybody said we should not use our preferred EEP settings?

No question (at least until PBR gets integrated somehow to the bake system)... But the new Midday (maybe we are not seeing the same one.. I'm not sure which viewer you are using), on a full PBR scene does a great job...

Your pull request was actually approved! Runitai's comments approving your pull request also makes a lot of sense too, your reply to his comments on the other hand... quite harsh... ("24 grit sandpaper on polished aluminum")... does it really need to be that way? I guess we all like SL and sometimes it goes over our head, I was "flabbergasted" by your reply... hehehe... my point is, you have great feedback, ideas and also a great contributor... maybe consider tone down a bit... the way you argument them. LL's approach seems to be a very good one for that case, making way easier for creators by providing a "default" EEP that can replicate almost exactly what they see while texturing in Substance Painter (recommended software with recommended HDRI settings) allowing others to see it that way too... even if just for bit until they change back to the EEP setting they like the most... aren't their creations one of the main reasons SL passed the 20 year mark? Its not like they are blocking moving clouds.. and most won't use the default Midday anyway... for me that Midday is a big plus, matches pretty close Substance Painter (recommended software with recommended HDRI Env) and with PBR, that Midday is an easy way to show others how a reflection probe or a custom EEP setting may affect the way a specific object/scene renders, it's a standard, its great to plus to have it for full PBR scenes (either called Midday... or Standard PBR or whatever it may end up being called).

Another snap that didnt fit on last post (image size)

In my experience so far... for buildings like houses, etc, if its a "legacy" building... it's better to use an old EEP, and not mix too many objects PBR materials... if its a building with PBR materials and PBR content... you may use a PBR converted EEP, along with reflection probes and lights, its almost a requirement, sounds like a lot... but you may enjoy the result... I think another thing to keep in mind... PBR/Legacy rendering is still being tweaked... and the current viewers (even some Beta ones), dont have the latest code... and in some cases the difference is really noticeable (of course each scene may be different... ) Seems to me, the GLTF-Maint2 branch viewer is the closest to the old 6.6.17 (seem to actually improve most legacy scenes)... but I dont know of any other beta viewer that has that code. The snapshots below show a quite noticeable difference on sky for that scene, same in interiors... taken using the Maint-W, GLTF-Maint2 and latest FS PBR Beta viewers along with the old 6.6.17... (the GLTF-Maint2 and Featurettes branches are said to have the latest dev viewer tweaking rendering)... may be worth a try... (All snapshots are showing the same legacy EEP... and its not a PBR Scene). Either way, seems to be a bit early to change content based on what we see with current PBR viewers...

No I don't know anyone... I didn't even think it was possible.

The "sort of stuttering" while rotating the avatar and transparency handling ( even after converting toggling from alpha blend to alpha mask where possible) are the most annoying thing for me about the new viewer ... not counting how harder it is to setup a full PBR scene with probes, and at lot more lights, and of course, see fps just go down compared to the old engine (we could go by before without lights using EEP only)... right now there is sort of a "honey moon" for most with SL PBR (its always great at the beginning... )... full PBR scenes will come to play... The main goal with that post was not to show a full apples to apples comparison (its just too different anyway, its a different beast), which you are right, even mentioning ways to do it..., thank you for the tips! I just wanted to share the results/readings and my 2 cents using the older card and the new one which I was about to receive, in a way that maybe most users that look at fps may perceive the new rendering engine (login and play). I guess it's cool to know the "technicals", apples to apples, etc, but at the end... it's really login and play.... I had high settings before, still use high settings now... what do I see, what performance, benefits and drawbacks do I get with the new engine, do I need to update my system to enjoy the same way I used to?... (even knowing the final result with PBR is a much improved scene when using PBR materials, use more resources, etc... ). I only increase LOD factor cause I hate to see things deforming a lot when I visit other places... and I never really a noticed much lower FPS running with a value of 4.0 vs the default setting but I do notice all objects rendering without deformation, which is great. I updated all my monitors to 27in @ 1440p @ 165hz from 23in @ 1080p @75hz about a month ago. Using the 75hz ones, I never not noticed any stutter before (of course)... but the RTX 3060 was probably not the best option to run @ 1440p. Does a great job @ 1080p though and for SL PBR @1440p if you limit the fps at the driver control panel, still works great (I dont notice any stutter with the old viewer @ 1440p with the 3060). I was really surprised on how the 4060 TI performed, I was not expecting it, specially after seeing the reviews just bashing it due to the price vs performance gain comparison against its predecessor, the 3060 TI... but @ $320 upgrading from a 3060... for 1440p, I think it was a good deal for me, the worst that would happen... would be to return it... The 11700k seems to do ok with the 4060 TI for SL, some scenes seems to show that a faster processor could push the 4060TI a bit more, but overall it does a pretty decent job I guess... I was not expecting over 30% better fps for SL @ 1440p with the 4060TI and 11700K (a lot more for some scenes, over 50%)..., even when most videos on the internet do show other games with similar performance increase, usually for SL, it used to be a much lower number compared to other games video benchmarks.. I may be able to keep this system for another 3 years until the 6000 series comes out... Anyway, that was the main goal... hopefully helps someone that is choosing an upgraded card to better enjoy PBR or update their system trying to keep budget in mind... I would not have bought the 3060 at the time, even for 1080p if I knew how much of a difference 3060 TI would make for a few bucks more playing SL, in fact, would not even consider buying another one for 1440p today, a forum post with some numbers and other users opinions specific for SL would have helped me make a better choice. Some websites say the 11700K is not fast enough to keep up with the 4060TI, which may be true, but for SL as the main game seems to do a great job .... I'm seeing a much better result with them, more than enough for what I need and saved a couple hundred dollars compared to a 4070 which was my first choice. Also... the 160W TDP for the 4060 TI is probably something to keep in mind...

Adding the same readings now with a RTX 4060 TI instead of RTX 3060. Much faster (of course) and the stutter perception is much lower, but still there (gone if using frame limit of 100 fps). The fps fluctuate a lot more with both viewers.

For these numbers, only the official viewer (or latest builds of it from Github...) SL PBR Viewer 7.1.3.7821226606 (Github gltf-maint-2 latest build) SL Viewer 6.6.17.6709258523

I saw that info too about Nvidia 551.23... then they launched a patch hot-fix driver (551.46 if I'm not mistaken)... but I never noticed any stutter with any other software or game , and with 6.6.17 viewer there was no stutter at all...even with the said driver that had that issue... either way, I reinstalled 546.65 just in case... and for my system the PBR viewer still stutters a lot until I limit fps... its like a huge difference.. maybe the stutter is due to the monitors running at a higher frequency, the 3060 cannot handle SL @ 1440p above 165 fps average for what I use... )... anyway, it doesn't stutter anywhere else... and after limiting fps, its just nice. Thank you btw!

Reference snaps of above, I'm not adding pictures of my stores... but they are available at my profile (Taber & Bay City)

I just thought to share what I'm seeing with the new PBR viewer along with some fps readings on scenes representing scenes that I use the most (Mainly my stores a few other areas, some just as a reference for my fps readings... Quantum City as an example). These are particular to my computer, which I'm also sharing the specs, maybe the numbers could be useful to someone considering updates or using a similar setup... anyway, it's just what I see with this computer based on my habits within the game. I'm looking for opinions on what others are seeing when using their own machine and scenes they frequent the most, comparing the old viewer with the new one and your experience between the two. (Ps.: Of course, a RTX 4090 with latest I7/I9 14th gen or latest AMD processors may make things a lot smoother... lol... no competitions or show off's if it all possible... viewer could be any that you use, as long is the same comparing PBR vs non PBR, example Firestorm PBR vs Firestorm non PBR, etc..... ) This computer is configured as follows: I7 11700KF (Stock speed settings) 64gb DDR4-3200 (XMP2 enabled) 1tb SSD (Main Drive) - PCIE 4.0 RTX 3060 Strix 12GB (Stock speed settings, rebar enabled) 1440p monitor @ 165hz (3x setup) SL PBR Viewer 7.1.3.7821226606 SL Viewer 6.6.17.6709258523 Both viewers with default settings except: - LOD factor set to 4.0. (RenderVolumeLODFactor) - Draw Distance set to 72 meters. (Just enough to cover the scene as seen on each snapshot) - On the scene with several avatars, I did change Max Impostors from the default 16 and No Limit then back to 16. I'm adding a sample screenshot for each scene rendered, and FPS results on a chart, comparing 1080p resolution and 1440p for both viewers, 6.6.17 (Legacy) and 7.1.3 (PBR). Numbers were taken using the same scene with same camera position for both viewers, after 1 minute or so, until the scene seemed to load completely. Only one scene could be considered a PBR scene, EEP, Reflection Probes and Lights (which is my store, under construction, but still one the scenes I use the most.) My 2 cents and perception: 1) PBR viewer is definitely slower in most cases, except on scenes with multiple avatars, which the PBR viewer seems to do a better job... not really noticeable, cause its too slow anyway. - I have 2 completely different experiences with the PBR viewer, if I leave everything somewhat stock... I can't stand how much it "stutters" (165hz monitor) when turning my avatar/camera (even though fps does not change much), it's pretty bad when comparing to the old viewer even at FPS over 100... however... if I go the Nvidia Control panel, and limit fps to 72 for the SL PBR Viewer, it's like from water to wine... everything is much smoother, no stuttering, a much better experience, the fact of being a slower viewer becomes not noticeable at all. I'm using 72 as a limit, cause it seems to be the "slowest" fps I see on average for the scenes I play with the most, I never had to do that with the old viewer using this machine, even at much lower fps. - PBR viewer texture handling seems to be much degraded (this is perception of course) compared to old viewer specially transparency, the incessant texture trashing (seems like textures switch between resolutions way too much even when not moving the camera), is not only distracting, but quite "ugly". - PBR viewer seems to have a "mind of its own"... Login to a scene/region... one performance reading... tp out, visit other places... come back... a different performance reading... sometimes its faster... sometimes way slower, even with same EEP settings, all after waiting a bit before seeing results. - Reflection probes in full PBR scenes, also seem to have a "mind of its own", along with auto exposure, it's like they are smoking weed! lol. - PBR viewer seems to lock up for a few seconds quite a lot, specially right after login (sometimes right before receiving messages, or avatar bake updates, etc)... reflection probes, when updating also change the scene for a few seconds, from super bright to normal, and happens quite often, specially after editing an object. - The final rendering of the PBR viewer though, is miles away from the old engine/viewer, of course there are exceptions, but from my point of view, far superior even with legacy scenes. I will post the same numbers with a 4060 TI, which I found a really good deal on Amazon for $320 bucks (Asus ProArt 16GB... after a gift card and discounts), I may return it if does not make much of difference for SL, I'm pretty pleased with the current setup keeping in mind I don't use this computer only for SL. Overall, for now at least for me, its a "Like/Hate" game with the new viewer, but, assuming it will continue get better, I really enjoy it specially after limiting fps at the Nvidia Control panel. I will add the fps chart to this post and the pictures to another post. Edit: Adding the same chart now with a 4060 TI, same system except video card, same as few posts below.

Its just the beginning... it will all be tweaked... some like you mentioned will sell great and nice PBR EEP settings... others will just go, see what values are and make their own with their own touch, its all personal opinion anyway (Most will love CalWL and Nam's whatever that is, some just won't care about it), what matters is that the current system does allow it to be tweaked and allows creativity, and does not destroy old content.... In the end will be great... (I was really critical of how the new viewer handled current content a few months ago, and in my opinion, I'm pretty pleased to see they did tweaked it, and did quite a great job). There is no way for them to see everything that is possible in SL, we need to let them know what we see ( feedback.secondlife.com )... they may take in consideration...

Not disagreeing with anything technical you are mentioning, but I dont believe is that bad, the new EEP settings are a bit more finnicky to deal with, but after spending some time with it, my 2 cents is that they do a really good job today with legacy content... The blueish hue becomes not as noticeable as you tweak EEP (Im not sure if they did something about it and its remediated now cause I'm using the latest GLTF viewer built from Github gtlf-maint-2 branch ). I can easily make a midday setting now with warm tones, which pretty much does not show much of the blue tint, and to my personal opinion, quite enhance the look of legacy content, all with a nice blue sky and nice blue water (considering a bug exists where some artifacts are shown in water when you enable Screen Space Reflections SSR).... also, maybe good to point out, I gave myself a chance to get used to the new viewer, I still can login with 6.6.17 SL Viewer, still like it very much... but I like a full PBR scene enough to just not use the old viewer. (The new Midday setting, hack or not, is a great starting point, for creators is amazing, finally what I see on a 3D creation software is really close to what I can see in SL ... just play softly with the "sliders") Anyway, my point is... maybe it can be better... for sure... but it's not that bad as it sounds. (If and when full PBR scenes are available... I believe quite a few users will really be tempted to switch and reduce or even forget legacy content... ). Snapshot below: All legacy content, new EEP setting... warm tones, no damage to the avatar skin..., nice sky, nice water... no blue tint at all... (no "damage" to avatar skin, nice sky and nice water are my personal opinion...)... also, I really like that is easier to control shadows using the HDR slider... (first picture @ 1080p, second at 720p... size limits in forum for one post)

In my view, there's a lot to like in PBR, but is true that things get's a bit "interesting" once you start tweaking current scenes. I've been trying for the last couple weeks to fully update my store and all items to PBR, as I intend to send free updates with materials built-in and all items with a fallback Blinn-Phong texture set ready for old viewers). I'm using (and updating to as they build) the latest dev viewer from Github (gltf-maint-2 branch, https://github.com/secondlife/viewer/releases/tag/Second_Life_Release%23ea4dc1f-gltf-maint-2). PBR in itself, is not that much slower than the old engine (got a lot better compared to a few months ago)... the problem is that for closed indoors, as an example, on a PBR scene, you need lights, there is no way around it using a new EEP setting, at least I cannot figure a way that would look acceptable without lights and once you add lights, performance starts taking a huge hit, very noticeable on large builds with more than 20 lights. (Of course varies depending on your machine.) Basically... Closed indoors, PBR only, new EEP settings and no lights... scene is pitch black. (We could go by before with old EEP settings without using lights and no performance penalty) Points lights do not cast shadows, and along with projectors (which do cast shadows) they bleed everywhere, through walls (thin walls mostly)... lights are and have always been quite a pain in SL... and now they are required for indoors using EEP settings converted to PBR. Ambiance setting in probes can help a bit, but after certain values, forget colors, or avatar skin color. Ambient Occlusion also becomes unnoticeable using point lights. Reflection probes are another headache as of now, and are needed, if not required, for indoors / buildings, so you don't see reflections from a "4th floor" as an example at the "1st floor" (same with large or open rooms in a house), probes dont blend really well, specially if using different parameters such as Ambiance, they must be positioned accordingly and some scenes may require quite a few of those. (I needed 4 Box Reflection Probes @ my store ). Reflections probes as of today, are quite slow, the scene will "lock up" for a bit while they update, from bright to "normal", and that happens quite a lot, sometimes without even moving the avatar/camera. EEP settings are a bit more restrictive than it used to be, specially for outdoors and "midday", changes to the sky (sky color, sun light, etc..), you will notice right away on your objects / shadows / avatar skin, night scenes are a lot easier, it's not impossible, but will take quite a lot of time. Water is not that bad after you tweak it for PBR (I had several friends complain about it using a PBR viewer, but all it takes is a bit of tweaking). There some wiki articles about EEP, they have a lot of good info, but way too technical for regular users like me, "I just want a blue sky, not a blue everything...", I sure hoped EEP would become easier with PBR. I did some experiment with EEP and I have some to show at one of my parcels at the Brown region (feel free to stop by if you want http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Brown/39/27/26 , disclaimer, I do sell stuff at that parcel. Ambient color is recommended to be black, and it does in fact produce best results for PBR scenes, the new Midday, in the latest viewer is a great starting point, and PBR materials looks almost identical to what we see at Substance Painter using the recommended HDRI. On the bright side... I believe the dev team did do a great job when it comes to rendering current scenes using old EEP settings, compared to what it was a few months ago, a lot got tweaked and changed. You may notice things may look a bit more "faded" when using just diffuse textures, or more saturated when using diffuse, normal and specular maps but after a couple days, your eyes "kinda" get used to it, some scenes do look better using the new viewer. My 2 cents to anyone ... try the new viewer (specially after FS picks up the latest changes, hopefully soon... ), give a chance for your eyes to get used to it, leave PBR and new EEP settings for a bit later... unless you are willing to do some digging to get information, and try out things ( also fail a lot )... each scene is different, and there are lots of snarky users "helping" assuming that one way will fit all or one way is the only correct way. In the end PBR is really impressive, a scene with PBR looks way more vibrant, realistic, and will open doors to many great scenes. (Once you or your eyes get used to PBR... the old becomes weird)... here is one example, even though not really what I like in SL... but quite impressive, the following link is to an adult region... so be advised... should open on Feb 2nd, but people can visit now... (They are tweaking EEP as we speak..) http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Quantum City/128/153/3501 I'm looking forward to see how PBR and the viewer turns out in a couple months, at the same time quite disappointed to see "SL" doing things the exact same way as before... releasing stuff that is not really ready, and for sure, leaving stuff behind that never gets fixed...

Right now is the best time to try out the new viewer while is still under development, not only to try to the new materials at ADITI, but see how your current objects display and work in-world... colors and scene rendering is really different when you choose ACES Hill, ACES Narkowicz and Linear, Linear is the closest to current viewer... the devs need as much feedback as we can give, cause is not lot like they are "wandering" around the grid to really see it ... make sure to share your findings at JIRA (there is also the official SL Discord channel #content-features, where you may also find links to the latest nightly builds in pinned messages, which includes the latest fixes... ).

My 2 cents, is that management is being proactive, and trying to prevent further "bleed", I guess it will work if it can reflect lower land prices, increased land usage benefits everyone. Personally, I'm not fond at all of higher lindex fees, but I'm not sure how much of it will be noticed compared to reduced region prices (another 1 cent, $199 would sound a lot better than $209), I guess the next thing we will see is in-world price inflation vs linden dollars/currency. I'm sure is really hard to manage the SL ecosystem specially when it cannot meaningfully grow, the pricing adjustment over the past few months for sure may or did help keep the boat going, but, like we have seen before, the boost doesn't seem to last very long. I'm wondering if management will do anything at all to try to grow user base (real users) in 2023, if it works now with the published average of 53000 users, would not be worth to try to increase it? Overall SL is better than before, no questions... Doesn't even need to be the 58 million average daily users compared to the other platform, but how many of those so called 67 million SL accounts so far could be invited to try it again? As users, we could really use an "upgrade" in management with actions to increase the number of users and engagement, the ones that are here will probably continue to be here for while (I will, lol). If not too much to ask, please don't screw up PBR launch, like it was done with the recent marketplace launch, the PBR project is awesome, please don't rush it, please don’t release it "half baked", keep in mind that the first impression is the one that matters, I know it’s still under development (really nice work so far btw), but in some (most) cases it will change a lot how “current” SL looks ”today”, a majority of users don't really care about the GLTF specification or “tech bla bla bla”, but they may not be pleased if, all the time they spent and money they spent, all of the sudden doesn't look at all as it used to ( it will be great to look better over time! ) ... the job done with server and viewer performance improvement over the last few months was great!

Hehehe, I love that! For that purpose, the new search release doesn't do too bad... https://marketplace.secondlife.com/products/search?utf8=✓&search[layout]=gallery&search[category_id]=&search[sort]=sales_rank_asc&search[per_page]=96&search[keywords]=women+dress&search[price_low]=&search[price_high]=&search[land_impact_low]=&search[land_impact_high]=&search[copy_permission]=0&search[modify_permission]=0&search[transfer_permission]=0&search[limited_quantities]=0&search[is_demo]=0 But like everyone else, you will need a handbook to learn to use SL search to filter older stuff and get better matches ...