Drayke Newall
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Posts posted by Drayke Newall
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7 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:
No, you didn't, you posted links to two threads both several years later.
I went through my 46 pages of posts last night when I wrote that and those are all the latest points I have ever made relating to what you said and that I have repeated since being on the forums. Apparently according to you my post activity is incorrect 'cause I somehow have a miraculous set of other posts hidden somewhere from my view but only visible to you.
7 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:3rd link. I said nothing about Black Desert Online. But since you brought it up, you whined earlier about "people stuck in the past", and yet in that BDO post from 3 years ago, you whine about noobs finding "pie menus" confusing, despite the fact that LL STOPPED using pie menus what, 14 years ago? Remind us again about who is "stuck in the past" here.
Even funnier, is having whined that "pie menus" are too weird, you then praise BDO for having a "person interaction menu, when they come close to you and you hover your cursor on them a circle with option icons appears". FYI, that's a "pie menu" variant.
Well then please find the post where I have mentioned another game to compare things to simplify the viewer UI if you dont mean BDO as that's the only thing I have referenced game wise for that. But once again those must be hidden in some mystical post storage that doesn't appear in my post activity and even if you did you probably read them wrong.
Additionally and again reading comprehension would show that I used the pie menu as an example of it being different to the norm hence why it was changed. Didn't make any hint of suggestion it is still in the viewer.
I also did not praise the interaction menu style being a circle I used it as an example of how you could have something appear when you hover your cursor over someone for a period of time that has options LIKE BDO does. You seem to be under the impression that showing something as an example means a person agrees with everything about such a system.
So lets see... let me hover my cursor over someone in the default viewer... oh look fancy that, a hover on avatar mechanic is there like BDO but more basic with a users name and needs to be clicked. Now instead of having to left click the user name that appears, the same box that appears when clicking should appear when I hover on that name and have some options to select like add friend pictorially displayed LIKE BDO does. No radial menu to use suggested at all nor in my previous post simply a slight change to a mechanic already there.
Like usual you imagine other things are said.
7 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:Those are NOT complicated at all, "Wear" replaces whatever is already worn on that layer or point, "Add" does not. It's not rocket science.
It takes about 5 seconds, and TWO mouse clicks to attach an item to the correct attachment point, I do it all the time. "Wear is not irrelevant to me, if it is to you, that is a YOU problem, not an US problem.
It is a complicated process and you have just explained why. A new user should not have to know that if something in their inventory is worn and removes some other body part that they then need to find the object, right click, find which body part is correct for that option and then select that attachment point and then repeat the process when the item gets updated.
Even if wear is kept it needs to be renamed to replace as wear and add imply the same and need to have people to correctly select the attachment point. Its not even hard to do, just add an option in the mesh upload window that is mandatory to select a attachment point for an avatar mesh upload. Just by providing that little option would make people mostly do the right thing.
7 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:Since boolean geometry operations could and almost certainly would involve "cutting" a prim at points other than the ones it already has, then YES, that is "full 3D modeling" as you are crating new vertices, and new faces, and UV mapping them on the fly.
Comments like that clearly show your talking nonsense. If you change the vvrt count and tri count, that is 3D modelling.
Absolute rubbish. Such a thing is not a full 3D modelling app as you suggest at all. The ability to mesh within second life in a basic form is completely doable with relative ease. I have never indicated that the modelling should be complex like a external program, just simple build with prims and convert to mesh and the ability to use a 'void' prim to specify to cut with that shape (though I am sure you will bring up some point about imaginary posts again).
Having the ability to build in prims, specify texture faces, what faces to remove and keep, what to cut and then merge to a single mesh is simply a matter of programming and not even that complicated programming either. Give LL devs some coding credit at least, unless you are implying that they cant do (and slightly modify) what users have created since 2013 and have been used by many people since then.
Like those other user made systems, you can even export prims to a .dae file in Firestorm, with texture mapping as well as transparency face ignoring and then reupload as a full mesh object - the only thing missing is the cut shape option. Why cant LL make it all automated within the viewer without the need to save it and reupload. Its all there for them to utilize all done by others.
7 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:The systems you described were created from scratch like that, and basically have always been there from day 1, and they STILL suck. However SL didn't HAVE this from day 1, so trying to implement it now means somebody or a team of somebodies spending months going through millions of items, officially sorting them into your oh so neat and oh so inadequate categories.
You mean for Linden Lab to update/maintain systems so that they keep with current systems even if they take time *the horror*. By your logic, we shouldn't have the following as it wasn't in Second Life from day 1: mesh, bento, fitted mesh, animesh, pathfinding, windlight, eep, MARKETPLACE, outfits... the list goes on all taking lots of manpower and a couple of years each to do.
7 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:Somebodies who will need to be paid, with money, ripped from the inhabitants via raised fees, and for no good purpose, as it will still suck.
And that is probably your biggest piece of fail-thinking so far. Temps, paid peanuts, who know nothing about SL, or the content, and care even less, on minimum wage, spending months ploughing through millions of items, and probably MIS categorising at lest 20% of them, makes your proposed waste of time effort and money even more laughable.
Fine I will do it for free and I am sure many others would moderate it for free as well under the approval of a linden employee like the moles build. But then I'm sure you will come back and say 'but those people dont know how I organise my inventory so why should they do it when they will miscategorise most things according to how I manage things'.
7 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:Remember those "people stuck in the past" that you despise so much?
The feature you describe is already an option in at least 1 TPV. You're stuck in the past.
Great a TPV and one at that. Only another 5 or so to go including the DEFAULT viewer and the most used tpv viewer. So all those other TPV's and LL must be stuck in the past as well according to you because one TPV has it.... absurd.
But I am sure you will just come back saying "oh but those magical posts that say x,y,z" (and probably you misreading them anyway if they do exist) and otherwise refusing to acknowledge and accept that systems that are already/now created by LL or users exist that can be adapted/improved/managed/organised EASILY to improve the whole experience including to the inventory and its management.
So unless you post something in reply to do with the topic and what I have said regarding the topic, I will not post further to you as your usual antics are derailing the thread like usual.
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2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:
I recall another previous incarnation of this thread.
Somebody posted their "possible" suggestion for improving things.
They demanded that LL should.
1. Massively simplify the viewer
AND at the SAME TIME
2. Incorporate a massively complicated full featured 3D modelling app into the viewer
AND at the SAME TIME
3. Add new UI element styles shamelessly copied from a game famous for having one of the wor5st UI's in the industry
AND at the SAME TIME
4. Keep the new Simplified Viewer with 3D Mesh creation tools, and new UI elements looking EXACTLY :LIKE Viewer 1.23.
FOUR mutually incompatible demands for what LL should do to "fix SL".
Can you remember who that poster was? You should be able to.
Oh here we go again. I see you are still spouting the same old nonsense without any evidence to back it up. You keep saying the same stuff over and over to discredit me but fail to realise you keep saying things I have never said. So let me show you how wrong you are... WITH evidence of the very posts you are talking about linked.
1. All I have ever said is for them to remove from the right click context menu options that are greyed out due to not being available for that specific action like every other program does (for example my post here). Along with upgrading systems to make the viewer more user friendly (i.e. on hover help menus - found here , as well as removing the 15 thousand ways a person can open specific windows like the people menu.
And no sorry, making the avatar customisation system/outfit system better does not equal simplifying the viewer. When I talked about simplifying it was in relation to decluttering the UI not removing features like you seem to think.
SL is a very complicated program and it is necessary for it to be complicated in certain areas i.e. the build menu. However there are a lot of features that SL has that are complicated for no reason i.e wear and add functions. Inventory wise wear is irrelevant since rigged mesh came about and creators do not attach body parts to their right attachment points. This means if someone selects wear for legs, their head may disappear. Therefore the wear/add mechanic needs to be SIMPLIFIED by removing wear as it no longer and cant function in its intended purpose.
2. Never said such a thing to introduce a full featured modelling app into the viewer. That would be absurd and impossible. All I have ever said is to introduce the ability to cut a prim intersecting another prim shape wise (complete Boolean Operations and expansion to the already existing cut and slice operations) and to allow the ability to merge linked prims into one object instead of having them separate prims linked. If you seriously think that is a full 3D modelling app then you clearly have not used a 3D modelling app.
3. No I never said to copy the UI from BDO. I used it as an example of how specific games can use systems like hover on a character to reveal interactions instead of right clicking and having those interactions clearly visible. I also used it as an example of how context menus can be used to slide over the view without reducing the screen size instead of having a gazillion windows popping up and having the need of only one menu option instead of 5 drop down menus at the top (Black Dragon has this now). That post is here. And to simplify the login screen and used the BDO one as an example (of which LL did simplify the login screen somewhat). I.e. decluttering.
But of course in your imagination that equals replicate and copy....
4. Looking like viewer 1.23... Sorry what? That was the most horrible garbage viewer they created. I know some people like its look, but no I DO NOT LIKE IT. Why would I ever say I want the viewer looking like 1.23 with pie menus and a theme that looks like it was made by a kindergarten student when I dont like it at all?
So I have posted all the links to my points you argued all of which say nothing to what you claim. Now please let me know who you are talking about that wants a full 3D modelling app and a simplified viewer that looks like viewer 1.23 that copies a games UI because it isn't me.
2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:So, let's pretend that LL magically fix the categories, but a problem remains, there are millions of items on the MP, and most of them won't be in the right categories, so SOMEBODY has to go through them and manually sort them, probably a LOT of somebodies, at great expense, and over a long period of time.
And yet just like MAGIC; VRChat, Roblox, Sinewave, Opensim, Unreal, IMVU, Avakin, etc, etc all manage to do it just fine where people put the items in the right place because those right categories exist. So once again it is an SL problem because those categories are wrong in sl.
And YES, somebody in LL should go though and manually sort them when they introduce new categories. Every other company does that and if they need lots of sorting or data entry they simply hire (cheap to pay) temps to fix such things just like every other company.
2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:And your whole sad plan for failure depends on the assumption that EVERYTHING that EVERYONE buys is bought via the MP.
Ah.. no it doesn't, I stated in my post (you clearly didn't read properly) that for items not sold via MP (i.e. in world) the user should, when purchased, have a 'save to' window popup where they can select where it should go, just like Landmarks do now. So it would work.
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8 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:
Congratulations, you, your self, have provided the reasons why your suggestion should NEVER be implemented.
Did no such thing. Just need Linden Lab to organise MP categories/filters better than it is and it could be implemented.
No other Digital marketplace of user created content or delivery system from said MP's have any issues with creators adding content into the wrong categories as, those marketplaces have their categories simple, clear, relevant and organised not to mentioned managed by the dev team. It is only Second Life that suffers from this and it does so because LL have refused to fix and clearly define the categories themselves and also refuse to take a hands on approach to item management, moderation and approval.
Hopefully with the new UI upgrade LL are working on for MP these issues will be addressed.
I do find it amusing though that despite those same user created content marketplaces showing it is possible, people such as yourself and those other regular stuck in the past forum users continue to say it isn't possible when the evidence says otherwise just need LL to actively manage MP more.
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On 3/28/2024 at 12:57 AM, Persephone Emerald said:
The problem with asigning metadata to user-created objects is that most creators can't be counted on to take an extra step properly. Most clothing creators don't even bother to set an appropriate attachment point for mesh clothes.
There is no need to assign metadata. All LL need to do is make it so that MP delivers stuff from MP directly to the inventory into MP categories (when they are actually sorted correctly which will never happen) that objects sold are already assigned to on MP. They also need to get rid of the whole, rez a box, attach a hud, add an object, etc delivery methods and have the items delivered directly into a folder system without the need for the end user to open a box.
Second Life is one of, if not the only, game/software platform that delivers items in 6 or so different ways instead of just delivering what you bought separately in a folder (which is possible on MP).
We already have the received Items folder where MP delivers to. There is no reason why this folder/section cant be made with folders based on MP category sorting and everything delivered by that method goes into those folders in received items. Make that section the default with the option to switch to the old inventory for older users or those that want to use it. At the very least it will allow people to categorise their inventory based on a decent (when correct) MP structure and easily allow them to create folders in the inventory to match.
Lastly, they then just need to introduce a 'save to' function for inworld purchases so that if a purchase is made not using MP then a 'save to' window appears where a person can save to the folder they want. We already have the system made like that with Landmarks, so wouldn't be a stretch to create a similar system.
On 3/28/2024 at 1:43 AM, Orwar said:People have always complained about the categories on the MP and how a lot of creators don't know where to put their things.
(Kind of off topic however also relevant if the MP categories are to be used as a filtering system for the inventory per my reply to Persephone above).
That isn't a case of the creators fault (though they get the blame most times) but Linden Lab's fault for not offering more or clearer categories (and not managing them) and plain and simply LL's own stupidity.
For example, having Avatar Accessories, Avatar Components and Avatar Appearance categories instead of just the category AVATAR and then sub folders. Of which the Appearance category was left after adding the other categories later because (not my words but a Lindens) they couldn't be bothered transferring the items from the old category to the new ones. So now we have a main category with a mere 2118 items which, apparently is still to many for them to simply recategorise those items manually and delete the unnecessary main category.
Then there is the fact that the categories just aren't labelled right from the get go. For example, a person in the inventory has the system folder BODY PARTS and CLOTHING yet for some brain dead reason Linden Lab call the category on MP Avatar Components and Apparel respectively. Then for 'reasons', LL, even after 15 years of having mesh heads and bodies (and other body parts), still don't have a subcategory for those items so it is left for the creator to try and work out what is the best category to assign them.
But then why stop with the ridiculousness there. Even though they have Avatar Components as a category they have the categories of Hair, Adult parts and Wings under Avatar Accessories instead of Components. Then they have the body part categories of Feet and Hooves, Ears and Tails and Horns and Antlers in avatar components under "Cosmetic Enhancements' next to makeup when the afore mentioned have nothing to do with Cosmetics.
Then of course to add insult to injury LL decide to put the sub category Furry Accessories (which includes heads, legs, etc) under Avatar Accessories, however, then have the main category Furry whereby they have a Furry Component and Apparel subcategory, but leave the accessory category in the wrong area. But never fear, in their infinite wisdom they then put the sub category Anthropomorphic (i.e. Furry) Accessories in the Furry main category whilst still leaving the Furry Accessories (exactly the same thing) sub category in the Avatar accessories category.
Then on top of that they have the Furry Apparel category under Furry main category instead of the main Apparel category. Now whilst you would think that was the end of it, they then decide to create a subcategory of Hands and Feet in the Furry main category (despite furries generally not having as such) but then have hooves as well as horns and tails under Avatar Components instead of under the Furry main category.
Now granted some items are used by both furry and human such as tails, hooves, horns, etc, however, by creating the unnecessary Furry category (and other categories) they have separated items to much. This has two negative impacts, firstly a person searching, for example, clothing or body parts for a furry will generally search in the main Apparel or Avatar Components category not furry meaning people miss items being sold (impacts user and creator) and if they search in the latter they will miss out on the furry category stuff in the former. Secondly, it means the creator needs to know where those categories are which they dont because they are not in the right spot or are in multiple locations and need to pick (often wrong) a category that they know will get the most hits. The same applies for Human related items as well.
TL;DR: Marketplace is a mess due to mislabelled and badly located categories which LL created which forces creators to put things in the wrong place or not know where to put them. LL need to seriously look at what they have done in MP and fix it.
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3 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. DId you actually click on Destinations in World/Destinations, OR the Toolbar button called Destinations? Because you get about 500 places to TP to directly from your viewer (not the web). What button are you talking about? When I am inworld in SL I use the viewer to navigate and find locations. The entire Community Center seems unnecessary to me.
Yes I did and do click both the World menu and the toolbar button and I will say it again. That destination pop-up is NOT the full destination guide. It is a selection of randomly picked destinations that are updated every now based on sometimes viewer count other times traffic count or sometimes just because.
3 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:Click on Destinations and you get all these Categories of places to direct TP to, 14 broad categories:
Wow 14 categories... now go to the real actual destination guide and look at the 48 categories (not including the sub categories). Only 34 categories short for the in viewer destination popup. Its easier for someone to find something when it is under the correct category and not the catch all categories of the in viewer destination pop-up.
3 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:Click on the Music and Clubs Category and you get the REAL-TIME avatar count on each club, and a direct TP. There are 30 destinations just for Music and Clubs;
30 clubs and music places you say? Only 170 destinations short from the actual destination guide. And whilst yes some might not be populated at that time it still provides people to explore to perhaps find a club they might like to go back to when populated if they are on. Especially since the in viewer destinations pop-up gets capped.
Or look at Nature and Beaches category. Inworld it has 30 Destinations, full guide has over 120 in the Beaches and Nature/Park categories alone, but, also that over 120 doesn't include underwater, winter attractions, photogenic spots, vacation spots or real life categories which all add even more places to look at that would be under Nature and Beach's.
Additionally, the full destination guide also has avatar count on each destination though because it has hosting server restrictions it updates at a slower pace (like any website) than the in viewer destination guide which btw also isn't Real-Time.
Also the inviewer destination popup can be buggy. For example when new user may log in the avatar count may not appear as sometimes it takes a while to populate.
For example, I downloaded the default viewer for these which you could take as a new person downloading and then going to WelcomHUB doing their walkabout and then opening the destinations in viewer:
Notice how when I look at it, a fresh install, I dont have either the 'whats hot now' category or the avatar count on the default viewer? Because to get it showing properly you usually have to let it sit a long time and populate or in most cases shut the viewer down and relog to show the avatar count and different locations. Also notice that the destinations are completely different to what you show.
So any new person with a fresh viewer download and start will not see not only the FULL destination guide but also a borked destinations popup in the viewer.
Now lets look at Firestorm:
All of a sudden avatar count shows and what's hot now shows. But whilst 'What's hot Now' shows in the above image for Firestorm, it wasn't showing for me but avatar counts were when I was logged into firestorm before closing it to take the default viewer pics.
Also take notice of the 'Whats hot now' destinations and you will see 'Exhale Dance Club' whereas in the club and music section you wont see it, despite is being one of the highest avatar counts for a club/music venue. Yet Warehouse 21 shows in both.
Second Life is a huge virtual world with lots to explore. Whilst yes I grant you that the destinations popup in viewer at least provides some form of help and guiding for a new user in what to do next they dont see how big and expansive creation wise SL actually is unless they have access to more destinations that wont involve them trying to search match or map dot hunt.
As to your the Community Centre comment about being unnecessary, I fully agree. If however LL are going to do it the least they could do is make it right.
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7 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:
It would be harder for LL to showcase communities within SL because communities are not single, consistent entities, but rather conglomerates of many diverse sims, groups and views.
The problem as I mentioned is that whilst yes they showcase a region to a person, it is hardly representative of the whole community unless LL are defining 'community' in a manner of a single entity community rather than a collection of places as per their previous community advertisement attempts. That is fine, however, it needs to be clearer to the new user.
I must admit I did laugh when I saw that Linden Realms also has a 'community exhibit' there despite already having a portal and advertisement in the games area.
As for it being hard to showcase non-single communities, it is not hard at all. Simply make a entrance that teleports a user to another place whereby there are showcases of multiple region exhibits of that said community all in the same place grouped together. Also not a portal effect it is overdone. There are plenty of immersive ways that a person can be teleported to a place without the need of a portal effect or a cannon.
6 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:There is a "show the Dump-stination guide" button in every viewer already.
I am no fan of the destination guide especially given that a lot of the time it contains regions that no longer exist and also the fact that it is a system that you have to apply to and get approved by Linden Lab rather than taking data directly from the about land and applying the description and images from there doesn't help either.
It is better though than nothing for new users to find some place to go to that they would be interested in especially since the search UI often doesn't really help in finding somewhere and is slow (probably because it looks to link to the website search).
As to that button you mention, sorry that is not the destination guide at all. It is a Linden Picked selection of regions that are empty, boring or laggy. They also seem to never change much.
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1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:
In the Netherlands one can here the Motown huds playing music. But the huds are one big design catastrophe IMHO.
The UK is ruled out as it seems. Must have something to do with royalties.Ah ok, Aus is out as well likewise a lot of Asia. Think Moles did say it was due to royalties.
As to the Hud, I gave up on it even if it didn't play anything. Had to restart my viewer just to detach the supposedly auto removing temp attach hud.
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2 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:
Motown wants to promote Motown music only. Who would have thought?
They are not paying to promote competition.And is the reason why it will stay empty and unused IMO especially when most other countries except US cant hear said music.
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2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:
I was thinking earlier about how the WelcomeHub basically has something similar to a "theme park layout": a set of "trails" intended to help guide the user so they don't miss anything. If that type of layout wasn't intentional, they came "close" and it's a good idea to have a layout where following a single trail, you could "see most everything".
Putting the Community Exhibition "off to the side" makes it more likely people will miss it.
Maybe after more Exhibitions are added to the Community Exhibition, LL will "re-arrange" the paths so that the CE is "part of the paths" and not "off to the side".
Who knows. Based on past Welcome areas though it is more likely for them to create an entire new Welcome Hub before modifying the already established path.
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4 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:
A few years ago, LL cut the Quest payout to 25 $L per week. They also cut the number of identical 12 regions Realms from six to one, and cut the number of crystals that rezzed per hour, meaning more players chasing fewer crystals. This was done to make the Realms less attractive to "cheaters", they said. But just adding the Payment Info Used requirement to cash in actually removed most of the multiple alt "cheaters" with no PIOF. Now there are no cheaters, and barely a reason to play because of the pitiful low returns for your time.
oof... Well worse than I expected it would be. Last I played it was 50L a week. To reduce that again wow.
4 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:SL needs to find a realistic way for new residents to earn lindens. Right now their answer is Just Buy Lindens with your dollars - SL has no use for residents that cannot add US dollars to the LL balance sheet.
There would be plenty of ways for Linden Lab to have residents earn Lindens and many being suggested in the past here and on jira, however they just refuse to do such things 'for reasons'
This then means that, as usual and like Linden Trees in the past etc, to help new players it falls on region owners and other users creating games and donating money to allow for new users to get free lindens. I and many new users past and present thank them for that as well.
2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:Actually, I was being "ironic" as they are talking more about the WelcomeHub and very little about the Community Exhibition. There's not really much to talk about with the CE.
It's not that the CE hasn't got much to talk about, it's more that fact that it is a disjointed addition to the Welcome Area that feels out of place and just.. well odd. But ok lets talk about CE.
Now last time I gave
constructivecriticism about the welcome hub, I was... well lets just say not like by Moles and others, but CE is just that, an out of place addon that doesn't even flow correctly.Now, whilst the builds may be niceish (albeit high poly in some cases) what is their actual purpose?
- Do they express the whole of the community they are representing? No.
- Do they provide any clarity at all to a new user to what Second Life is or offers in said community? No.
- Do they offer any form of information to the new user on how to find info or places of the community they represent and not just a specific place? No.
- Do they offer any form of meaning to the path of the tutorial? No
It's all well and good to showcase a 'community' through an exhibition, however, why showcase one region? Would it not be better to showcase the community itself and all that it entails rather than a small slice of it? This is also why the 'community pages' Linden Lab made and just stopped and failed as, it offered nothing to a new user except a 'yes we have this community' find it yourself. The only real CE booth that offers a multiple region community experience is the BBB passport of which, well done to the creator of that as it is something many of us have been wanting LL to introduce.
Think like a new user. What would you prefer to see in SL at the end of your guide at the Welcome area after learning how to do things etc and wanting to know what to do next?
- A very specific, and lets face it, advertisement of a region exhibiting themselves and really not a 'community', or
- for the first time in Second Life's 20 year history LL spend the effort that went into the community pages, CE, etc and put it into actually making SL feel less clunky where a new user (and regular) can access the full destination guide directly in the viewer as part of the ui to find hundreds of their 'community' related destinations they are looking for, rather than having to physically pull up chrome, edge, firefox, etc to actually look at the destination guide and no the in built webviewer is not what I am talking about. Think the already inbuilt destination button and UI element but the full guide not a random selection.
I mean good grief, I dont mean to sound horrible but 20 years and a new user and even regular users still have to go to a web browser to look at it (not to mention MP)?
I also mean this in the nicest way Moles... the 'What's Next' board on the Welcome Area. Why is everything on there a link to a place on the SL website? Now I haven't used the default viewer for a long time but surely, like tpv viewers, there is still a Group Search and Events Listing section already built into the viewer? Why is a new user pushed out of the SL viewer/immersion to the website rather than opening these UI elements directly?
1 hour ago, Extrude Ragu said:The last I checked there are a lot of DJ's on SL that like to play live music. letting resident DJ's and entertainers book the venue would give it some life.
I would dare say that would go against the conditions LL have with the Motown sponsor due to copyright of songs DJ's play without getting the license to play them.
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On 2/24/2024 at 1:35 AM, Persephone Emerald said:
The Motown region is there because it's sponsored. I'm sure LL has a legal agreement to keep it there for a specified period of time. They probably would like other companies to pay for such regions too, so it's advertising for those that might be interested. There are 3 big problems with the Motown region however. 1st, that they're trying to sell something to residents (music) that they can already get for free in SL or through their computer. 2nd, that their service only works for people in the US (and maybe Canada?), and even when their demo version works for the rest of us, it's slow to load up. (It does help show how experiences can work though.) 3rd, that there have been no events there since the region first opened, so it's dead. "Oh look, and empty city region" is not a great marketing tool.
I am sure the Motown region can be used by Linden Lab for other things other than just adding a temp attach hud for US residents only to play music.
I said it before when it first opened in these forums that the easiest way for it to be populated at least some of the time and to help user retention etc. is for each new resident from that week be sent an invite to attend a 'welcome concert party' event at the end of the week offering music, fun, freebies, etc.
This would make the region and stage at least used once a week and provide a meaning for it to be there whilst also showing new users how Second Life can be used and how it can be fun.
But yeah...
On 2/24/2024 at 9:31 AM, Persephone Emerald said:Oooo, maybe it can look like a paper clip?
I know you said this maybe in jest but, why hasn't a helper been added to the viewer UI? There is no need for some laggy NPC companion. Someone mentioned earlier that no new person sees the new IM from a mentor or doesn't know how to use it. This is where such a system would shine.
For example:
- Firstly, the UI helper is togglable off and on and if left on is only there for 30days and auto turns off unless turned on.
- Secondly, it helps the user dynamically based on what happens in the viewer UI itself. I.e, taking the IM issue mentioned above; as soon as the new user receives their first IM the UI helper pops up saying "I see you have received your first IM (Instant Message) in world! This is a private chat between you and someone else only. To answer do blah, blah, blah...
- It would easily guide people into how to use the most complicated thing of SL - the viewer of which is also the hardest thing for mentors to explain.
You said a paper clip, I have always proposed the system should be Megellan Linden and that the Welcome Hub should be themed on the famous Second Life explorer (the new user exploring how to use SL through the actual story of an Explorer Linden and his adventures in discovering the Second Life Continent - main land).
Having both the Welcome Hub themed on him and having a UI helper being him is a no brainer. Newbs are exploring SL for the first time and learning... Megellan is an explorer. Paleio Quest and Linden Realms are based on Megellen and can be part of the entire Welcome Hub story. There are places in old SL that can be updated that can be explored that are based on Megellan. He has an an entire history and story to go by and his own blog (though not updated anymore).
As MS eventually admitted to, Clippy was optimised for people using Word for the first time. And for a first time user of Word it was good. The problem it saw was that he never went away... ever and it was this continuous pestering that people hated and saw him removed. So long as the above UI companion/assistant expires after a period of 'newb' or can turn off I believe it would be a great addition.
Not to mention a dedicated new user chat only visible and useable to new users, mentors, moles and Lindens.
But yeah...
ETA:
I also remember a very long time (going back to Win95 now lol) where Compton's Encyclopaedia had an interactive UI helper whereby certain features and help was voiced with video of Patrick Stewart the actor. Helpful UI assistants are not new and when done right can be fun and very helpful.
On 2/26/2024 at 3:18 AM, Persephone Emerald said:I wish the Linden Realms gem collecting game were an easier way to earn lindens. I know regular players gamed it so much that LL had to make it harder, but it used to be a great way for newbies to earn a little money. Paleoquest is for the more serious gamers, but I agree that it's too strict about jumping too high or sitting too long. It even scares me, though I think it looks great.
Can Linden Lab please figure out some way for newbies to earn a few lindens? I think the rest of us pay enough now in transaction fees that they should be able to afford to give the newbies an incentive to stay and spend money too.
As much as I detest the idea of the Social Casino, it's fun to play the games there, even if the payout is not spendable on anything. The Skills Games region is not for me, but it usually has a few avatars in it, so that's a win for LL.
There are plenty of ways to earn good money in SL for free (some allow you to earn 100's of lindens a day not the measly 50 a week Linden Realm offers) but, because Linden Lab dont own them or aren't getting paid by some sponsor for it, they dont mention or use them.
I remember Linden Money Trees being everywhere back in the early hype years of SL and of course we also all remember L$ camping stuff. Both which many new users were able to earn decent Lindens to subsidise the items they couldn't get at the gazillion freebie places around.
Now those ways to earn lindens are gone (or banned), the new ways are not advertised by LL like the old ones were and the gazillion freebie places (also once advertised at old welcome hubs and was a key reason why people stayed - they didn't need to spend money) have reduced to one or two of which haven't seen quality or comparable modern items for free added in near 15 years.
This means that it is left to new users either blindly searching or by chance discovering them or by pure luck meeting someone that knows those ways to earn cash or how to get good freebie things that cant be found in one place.
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On 10/25/2023 at 6:26 AM, animats said:
Hm. I wonder if particles could be made to stop at reflection probe objects. Those sort of indicate "outside world ends here". Something to think about after full PBR deployment.
I'm no scripting expert, however, couldn't a person just use a particle mask rule to make it so that the particle dies on impact with the specified object? So, if the object is called roof the particle dies or alternatively using raycast to find objects and kill the particle on impact (this is how many games do it).
If there isn't a LSL command to do this I am surprised. I can remember somewhere seeing a particle dead_mask when I was playing around with particles and scripting many years ago but dont know if that would be the same.
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20 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:
What did the Lab fail to provide in the current inventory system?
Off the top of my head...
- Split screen inventory (not new window, think windows explorer with folder structure on one side like we have now and separate split for inside the folder) for ease of drag and drop of items into a different folder without needing to open a new inventory window for something that should be done in one window.
- Allow us to change file icons to something other than a box or group of boxes for an object to allow for quick identification of what an object is.
- Allow to show creation date/obtain date in different column without the need to open a new properties window
- Allow for properties page of item to have link to MP and/or Landmark instead of creator needing to include info as separate file/notecard in folder. This gets rid of the additional landmark files in every folder. Can also link the file to MP in a manner to allow for reviewing an item directly from SL. I.e. more interaction between MP and the files/inventory.
- Allow properties page of an item to include item details such as text fields (as a selectable tab on the properties page) that provide all info a creator usually provides in a notecard and have it linked to the MP website where the creator can add that detail in a custom field when setting up for sale and it shows on the properties page and is updated as the creator updates the file (i.e. how to, copyright, changelog, etc). Removing the issue the OP, and all of us have entirely in needing to find and delete the thousands of notecards in an inventory taking up resources.
- Allow to show images in a folder as thumbnails (size adjustable) and not list view with the need to open the image or hover on it like has been introduced (need item 1 split screen above for this)
- Allow for right click>move to folder>select folder which would be far quicker than opening the file tree and finding the right place especially useful for moving received folder. Either have it as favourite folders are selectable or allow for typing in the folder name to quick select.
- Allow renaming of no-mod files/objects
- Provide additional tabs at the top of inventory for things like last modified, recently worn (which technically should be in the outfit window), etc.
Could go on, but wont. All in all, I am in favour of a more fully automated inventory (and outfit management system) where it is directly linked to MP and the inventory folders rather than a received items folder, i.e. inventory folders and MP categories match so if a person buys a shirt it places it in the shirt folder, etc (posted about it before with images for outfit management so wont bore people with it again). I know that many dont like that idea for some reason, so if LL are going to keep the inventory system as a tree system then at least modernise it and add the above and more to allow for less inventory clutter and ease of use UI and inventory.
What we have now is a Windows 3.1 system where everything selected in the inventory has a new window pop-up when it should be a Windows 11 system where as much as possible should be included in the same window or attached to the files.
ETA
As for unpacker scripts they should not be necessary at all. MP allows for direct delivery as a folder structure without the need to even rez a box or attach a hud to 'get your items'. Both are completely unnecessary and now that caspervend is owned by LL any inworld delivery of an object can be tied to MP as well. Backups would also be unnecessary as you can simply go to MP and select redeliver unless they are no-copy which wouldn't have a back-up item anyway.
So using the above changes to the inventory and MP/caspervend (linked) there should be no need for notecards, landmarks, backup boxes, huds, unpacker scripts/images/animations/sounds, etc to be included in the packaged item folder. All that should be in the folder provided when purchased is the item itself and perhaps an image of what it looks like though that could also be added as an image to the properties window as well (like the profile image that you click on to expand).
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4 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:
The main asset database is in the USA, but content is delivered by the CDN "Content Delivery Network", which is a series of REGIONAL web caches around the world.
So when you tp into aome place, and your viewer needs to stream the data for "the really unpopular body almost nobody wears" so it can render that, it streams it from a CDN cache located near YOU, not one in Oregon, UNLESS, nobody near you has requested that recently enough for it to be in the very large cache, when it grabs it from the main data base.
In fact, content was on the CDN long BEFORE Project Downlift, the move to Cloudcrap Oregon.
It's how SL does it, and has done it for quite a few years now. Also, if memory serves, the CDN is run by Akami, not AWS.
Don't take my word for it, why not ask @Beq Janus to explain it to you, or even @animats.
Hey, dont shoot the messenger. Oz and Ebbe mentioned the hosting asset servers on AWS in specific regions. If Oz was wrong so be it however he most definitely mentioned it with Ebbe confirming it in an interview for press when Oz was right next to him.
Maybe it was a case of transferring from Akami to AWS, but as far as I am aware Oz and Ebbe both saw such a move as necessary for SL to improve. So much so they announced it in marketing interviews and what not. Perhaps he was lying or wrong, who knows.
I do know Ebbe and Oz also did mentioned that they MAY be able to also have the regions hosted somehow in different zones (like @Arielle Popstar mentioned) however not as a complicated method but based on simply who uses that region more. For example if the majority of users using a region are located in England then the region is hosted in England. Just like how discord allows you to choose which voice server you are located on, the same is applied to SL regions. This doesn't stop people from US going to the region, however gives priority latency to the users that use the region more. Such a thing is simple to implement and would be a case of having the user select the world zone upon requesting a new region.
Here is the quote from ebbe/oz mentioning such a system:
"Today we are located in the US, which means that people from Australia or Asia or Europe have to travel quite a ways, which is hundreds of extra milliseconds of latency. So if you want to have a very dedicated community in Australia or somewhere, we could maybe start to distribute our server infrastructure to be closer to where the actual customers of those regions are, which would make things more performant."
ETA:
To add to the thread rather than derail it further, one thing LL will never change is the way in which textures are created i.e. create textures in world using shapes like most modern user generated systems use.
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2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:
That's because it's a damn stupid idea.
Those "darn it all to heck, you appear to have been logged out" TP failure messages, result from unacceptable delays in communications between servers IN THE SAME BUILDING, on Oregon.
Placing those servers around the world, hundreds of milliseconds apart, only adds to the failure.
From the UK to Cloudcrap Oregon, round trip, 200 ms, from Cloudcrap Oregon to Cloudcrap Montreal, add 80 ms, from Cloudcrap Montreal to Cloudcrap Melbourne, add 400 ms, from Cloudcrap Melbourne to Cloudcrap Delhi, add 300 ms, from Cloudcrap Delhi to Cloudcrap Berlin add 400 ms, how long does iit take to walk across a region crossing... Too Damn Long.
The suggestion that they MIIGHT look at "distributed servers" was basically one of those "feelgood do nothiing " statements made to keep technically clueless people quiet.
NEVER going to happen, for very good reasons.
Erm... that is not what LL were proposing to do. It has nothing to do with where the sim hosting servers are located as they were always intended to be located in the USA. LL were talking about the assets. SL assets have been on AWS for longer than regions, however, they are still located in the USA. This means that when a person logs in or tps into a region, the viewer has to still grab the assets from the servers in the USA.
This means that there is greater chance of congestion, higher latency and increased packet loss all affecting how quickly mesh, textures, inventory, etc are downloaded and displayed.
By having the asset servers located in different (multiple) region zones (europe, asia, pacific, england, etc) it would allow for better loading speed of the assets and allow for less congestion as people located in pacific region would get their assets from say Sydney, people in asia from japan etc. This is how all streaming services are run when downloading is required assets are required due to the same issues.
This is what Oz intended when he and LL promised doing as such and as Oz also mentioned, would improve and speed up the SL experience.
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1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:
Didn't they lose some developers to the Sansar project as well? Did those developers return to LL when Sansar was sold off?
Yes they did loose 30-40 devs when Sansar failed. Majority of the Devs that moved from SL to Sansar were also laid off and never returned to their previous roles on SL.
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2 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:
Is the main website really so bad? It think it's pretty functional, a diiference in taste doesn't mean it's bad. Comparing it to inworld brands isn't right. Their targets aren't the same. In general Linden Lab is a provider, they make the room Second Life to play in, brands are the toys to play with.
It is actually pretty bad. It is a jumble of different page themes from different decades that makes the website, support, account and marketplace very disconnected. Most companies, if not all, have a single theme across all of their web content. This way a new person looking at it is presented with a good example of how 'interested' the company is in updating their content etc. This then reflects on providing the impression of "if their web content is this good' then they care about their product.
Whilst I agree that comparing second life's website with in world brands isn't right, how about comparing it to a similar platform. Second Life is a content generation platform and whilst also a virtual world it operates similar to unreal engine in that people create content using second life as a content creation platform.
If you then compare Second Life's website to Unreal Engine's website: Unreal Engine, there is a vast difference in both the modern look and professionalism of the website as well as the coherence of the theme. This includes the homepage, forums, and their marketplace. All operating in the same theme. Compare that to something like SL's website and they have a different theme for almost every single page.
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6 hours ago, Sammy Huntsman said:
Just because they released Jamie and Blake, doesn't mean that is they are completely done.
Actually it does. Linden Lab are known for releasing products and never updating them, even if they promised to do so. Experiences, EEP, BoM, etc were all released with promises that they would be improved and features added gradually but never were.
3 hours ago, Sammy Huntsman said:That is such a terrible comparison, MW2 is totally different from SL. I meaning you are comparing a triple A game designer company, with a few hundred people on their team, to a smaller company with not as many people on their team and are also working on a crap tonne of other stuff as well.
I think you are misunderstanding what PekeNL meant. Whilst yes there were more people working on MW2, even if there were the same amount of people working on the entire game as Second Life, it would not have taken them 2 years to create two mesh bodies with a selection of badly fitting clothes that used a character creation system that was already made.
What's more, according to Patch, very well-known content creators (avatar body, head, hair, clothing) came on board with them, as Moles, to work on this project. They would have had the experience to be able to mesh, rig and UV map the entire body within a matter of months if that. There is nothing demanding in these NUX bodies that would justify 2 years worth of creation time as it is a simple 1 layer mesh body with no complex body hud, etc.
If such an avatar did take 2 years worth of planning, creation, updating website sign-up, etc, then for the quality given with these avatars and the process I have to wonder what they did with all that time. Badly fitting mesh clothes, hair mesh instead of hair bases, generic shapes with no slider customisation on the website update meaning a genetic twin standing next to you when you rez in, etc.
Staff wise at most 5 people would have worked on these bodies in any gaming company be it indie or AAA and even that is a stretch. One for concept, one for meshing/rigging, one for skinning, one for website integration and the other for oversight.
Then you also have the issue's of complicating things for the new user. Now Patch earlier said:
"Allowing for total and free control on content in a dismally confusing system of choices and options that can either hurt or destroy the user experience is not one we will promote."
They have created exactly what they set out not to do. With these avatars new users still have to work out how to use sliders to make themselves look different of which as shown in this and other threads is quite hard (to near impossible) as a lot of customisation sliders dont work, are limited or just dont allow for it based on how the skin and mesh are made.
You also have in the library no indication to a new user what the need of an Alpha mask is, confusing names of content and and options, issues where new people will wear items directly from the library (if they can find the free clothes in there in the first place) and wonder where they are located once worn due to it just putting the item in the object folder instead of showing 'worn' in the library itself'.
So much for not promoting a "dismally confusing system of choices and options".
The vid posted by Naria Panthera and others says it all. So many missed opportunities and in no way has improved the retention of new users.
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7 minutes ago, ChinRey said:
One way to find out...
/me logs on to the beta grid, rummages through her inventory and finds the 2048x1024 she had kept just because she's an incurable packrat.
Apparently not. I tried to download it and it's still at that resolution. I don't have a 2048x2048 or anything bigger but I would assume it's the same with them.
Thanks for confirming. I was sceptical of it as the wiki has always maintained that 2048 textures do exist, but it wouldn't be the first time the wiki was wrong either. Good to know they still exist. Shame LL dont use the 2048 terrain textures they had in the library on the only thing they should be allowed on. Terrain.
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2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:
I'd heard about the 2048x2048 textures but they were always described as ancient—and I arrived in 2006 so they must have been really early-on.
2048 textures were removed completely in 2006 (around mid-late 2006 from memory). The lag was bad from them as, like people still do with 1024's, they used different 2048 textures for each face and they were causing crashes for many video cards.
I also did hear back then when they removed them that any existing 2048 texture had been resized to 1024 automatically, however, the labels were not changed and so they still read 2048. Could be wrong about this though as I dont have any full perm 2048 textures anymore to export them out to verify. There were a few 2048 textures in the Linden Library but they seem gone now as well.
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16 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:
The page is only 2 years out of date. 🤔
According to the edit history Oz Linden edited the page to add "Current information on creating community gateways can be found on the Linden Lab Official:Community Gateway page."
So wasn't an update to the actual list but to tell everyone that its out of date and to go to the new page on how to create them.
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28 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:
Without an application process, how would they know who ticked the box?
Fine, if you want to play your usual games and think it shouldn't be on the wiki then all LL need to do is have it so that you log into your account and then you get to download the dev kit from your second life account page. This also doesn't need an application process as by creating a second life account you already have signed a ToS stating that you will not distribute Linden Content to a third party or sell in Second Life.
As I have said there is no situation where an application process is needed for Linden Lab content. Now I am sure you will keep going on saying otherwise and that's your right so going to agree to disagree.
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8 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but with the dev kit you would be able to upload the body by yourself and re-distribute it (maybe you modify it a little.) Maybe that's what needs to be prevented in order to not have 100 different variations of the same body around that are incompatible between another.
If that was the case then why should Linden Lab even bother getting all users to sign a ToS when starting the viewer for the first time or upon sign-up. The ToS has clauses in there to prevent just that as does their content policy and marketplace listing policy.
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27 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:
Try selling the default Second Life avatar mesh on Turbosquid and see how many buyers you get.
That wouldn't need an 'application process' to alleviate. It would simply require ticking a box saying you agree to not sell it elsewhere. You know, just like every other 3D platform has as well such as Daz3D and indeed turbosquid itself.
Also, why would LL worry about that when they open source everything? It is that very same open sourcing that created viewers that would make any 'application process' to protect their new Avatar IP worthless.
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Why do so many new players not get the inventory system?
in General Discussion Forum
Posted · Edited by Drayke Newall
I did mention that the received Items folder should be made to have the category folders of the MP (if LL made the categories better and more organised) so not only items are delivered to those folders but also means a new users could copy that layout to use. But that hasn't been implemented.
For now, if you are wanting a ready-made folder structure that someone has done and uploaded to the MP, you can find those here for free:
Second Life Marketplace - INVENTORY ORGANIZER HELPER (Animations)
Second Life Marketplace - INVENTORY ORGANIZER HELPER (BodyParts)
Second Life Marketplace - INVENTORY ORGANIZER HELPER (Objects)
Second Life Marketplace - INVENTORY ORGANIZER HELPER (Clothing)
Second Life Marketplace - INVENTORY ORGANIZER HELPER (Wearables)
You will have to go through and delete the objects within the provided folders labelled "Delete Me" as you cannot sell just folders on the MP. Subfolders shown in the demo vid wont be delivered either due to a limit on the amount of subfolders that can be given.