Viewers Lagging Badly

[River Abonwood]

Perhaps someone here can answer this question for me.  I'm honestly not sure where else to post it at.

With any of the V3 coded viewers, my fps drops to under 5 and my bandwidth goes to hell in a handbasket.  I do not have this issue with Phoenix.  I have tried all sorts of tweeks, and the only relief that I can find from it, is to take my settings all the way down to low.   I should not be having this issue, as my computer is less than 3 months old, running Win 7,a quad core processor, and 512 video card.  

I really love the features that LL V3 and Firestorm have to offer, and would love to use them ... however, I simply can't.  I know that I am not the only one with this issue - both my partner and the owner of our sim, both running Macs, are having the same issue.

Could this be a problem in the V3 coding, or perhaps the way that the render engine is working now, due to having to deal with mesh?   It seems to me that those are the main differences between Phoenix 1185 and LL V3 and Firestorm Beta.

Answers would be appreciated.

[Theresa Tennyson]

If the Macs have AMD/ATI graphics processors go into "Preferences" - "Graphics" - "Hardware" and de-select the box saying "Use OpenGL Vertex Buffer Objects."

If they're laptops and have automatic power-saving switching between built-in Intel graphics and a separate graphics processor, make sure they're always running using the separate processor.

Copy and paste the information from "Help" - "About Second LIfe" from both Phoenix and the newer viewers into a reply and someone may be able to spot something else.

[Luc Starsider]

@Theresa. I don't think it is automatically necessary to disable VBO on an AMD equipped mac. I'm using a MBP with an AMD card in it (AMD Radeon HD 6750M) and get better fps with VBO enabled. Although I have seen people whom I trust say that VBO is not working correctly (on windows?) in the later versions of the viewer.

@River. There is no reason coding-wise why you have bad frame rates in v3 viewers and not in v1 based viewers. In face, the latest LL viewer give me better fps than ever.

Theresa might be on to something if you're on a laptop. Check which graphics processor is used while in SL, by looking at the about Second Life info. And come back and paste it in here as Theresa asks.

Another thing I'm wondering, which may sound silly, is whether you have anabled shadow and lighting? (or deferred rendering - I think that's what it is called - with or without shadows)

- Luc -

[River Abonwood]

@ Luc - No, I don't have deferred rendering on.  I can barely manage sun and moon!  

@ Teresa - I already have turned off OpenGL - I actually get better performance when it is turned off.  Its another setting that drops my fps for some reason, even though it is supposed to improve them.  

 

Here is the info from Help > About SL that you both asked for, for Phoenix and then for v3 (LL 3.3 viewer)  Both are the current versions of the viewers.

 

From Phoenix:

Phoenix Viewer 1.6.1 (1691) Mar 19 2012 11:12:11 (Phoenix Viewer Release Mesh)
Release Notes

Built with MSVC version 1400 (SSE2, LAA)

You are at 275015.4, 234467.3, 21.8 in Isolabella located at sim9759.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.45.93:13010)
Second Life Server 12.02.24.249991
Release Notes

CPU: AMD Phenom II N970 Quad-Core Processor (2194.53 MHz)
Memory: 3839 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit Service Pack 1 (Build 7601)
Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
Graphics Card: ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4200 Series
Windows Graphics Driver Version: 8.17.0010.1119
OpenGL Version: 3.3.11554 Compatibility Profile Context

libcurl Version: libcurl/7.20.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8j zlib/1.2.3
J2C Decoder Version: OpenJPEG: 1.4.0.697, Runtime: 1.4.0
Audio Driver Version: FMOD version 3.750000
Qt Webkit Version: 4.7.1
Vivox Version: Unknown
Packets Lost: 97/104051 (0.1%)

LL V3

Second Life 3.3.0 (251182) Mar 15 2012 11:29:12 (Second Life Release)
Release Notes

You are at 275,015.0, 234,467.0, 21.8 in Isolabella located at sim9759.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.45.93:13010)
Second Life Server 12.02.24.249991
Release Notes

CPU: AMD Phenom II N970 Quad-Core Processor (2194.52 MHz)
Memory: 3839 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit Service Pack 1 (Build 7601)
Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
Graphics Card: ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4200 Series

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 8.17.0010.1119
OpenGL Version: 3.3.11554 Compatibility Profile Context

libcurl Version: libcurl/7.21.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8q zlib/1.2.5 c-ares/1.7.1
J2C Decoder Version: KDU v6.4.1
Audio Driver Version: FMOD version 3.750000
Qt Webkit Version: 4.7.1 (version number hard-coded)
Voice Server Version: Vivox 3.2.0002.10426

Built with MSVC version 1600
Packets Lost: 50/4,536 (1.1%)

[Luc Starsider]

Not sure you said, but have you always had these performance problems using V3 based viewers? Or did you ever have 'normal' performance (around the same you get in Phoenix) on any of them, but it suddenly changed?

ETA: From what I can find, the HD 4200 is not the fastest or greatest card in the world. The card may very well be the problem, but I can't quite understand that it should perform *that* much worse in V3 than V1 based viewers. 

- Luc -

[River Abonwood]

Luc, no, I didn't always have problems with the other viewers.  Quite honestly, it started around the time that mesh came into being - which is why I wondered why perhaps it was something in the coding or the graphics rendering engine.  Another thing that I have noticed is that, my graphics keep rendering over and over again, even if I am looking directly at them - it cycles, in rendering.

With Phoenix 1185, which isn't mesh enabled, I run fine.  But, in 1185, I don't get the updated features that Firestorm and LL 3.3 have.  

[Linda Brynner]

Oh you're not alone in this.

The only solution is to hold on to a V1 based viewer which delivers all new thingies.

I haven't seen any advice yet really working well. Many have experience a serious drop FPS since viewer 2.8 and derivatives based on it like Firestorm. I had so many tickets raised which all have been replied to by LL in a decent manner... try this, try that... etc.

Since then there is nothing i haven't tried, even experimenting with 3D settings of my Nvidia card.

All V1 based equivelant viewers provide a massive higher FPS. This is a know issue. At the moment i am using the stable Phoenix 1.6.1, build 1691 (1600 build was experimental, buggy and to be skipped) and i still have the official 1.23.5. Both give me 50-70 FPS with a draw distance set at 200m. I have mesh now, and all other newer gizmo's. And i can use the shadows at 10 FPS.

I have experienced with different skins in FS, and they seem to make a difference of ~5 FPS. So it seems due to the UI.

When i use exactly the same graphical settings with a V2/3/4 equivelant viewer, i can hardly get over 20 FPS at draw distance 128 which is really madness. When i visit a sim with many alpha textures (nature/plants), i can hardly move around because FPS drops to ~4 (no shadows enabled).

I have heard many complaints about it even for users with the latest computers.

LL has changed the rendering engine i did understand however LL refuses to admit it. And the 2/3/4 UI is a major culprit.

It really is the coding, i can't detect another plausible reason. It must be the UI swallowing FPS badly.

Bad, bad, bad. 

Luckely Phoenix is up-to-date and fast.

[Linda Brynner]

That the rendering enfine is changed i know as the official V1 viewers came with two rendeing libraries in the Progam folder: llkdu.dll and llkdu.dll.2.config.

At a certain point LL had forbidden 3rd V1 party developers to use these; missing these files the V1 viewer automatically renders via the openJG library which is slower. The work around was to copy those files from the official V1 program folder over to the 3rd party one, and voila the speed was back.

But SL wanted to end that workaround too so they hard coded using a different engine...

And there we have it... sofar the open source policy of LL... Nowadays all 3rd party developers have to copy the code into their development... ending up with the same sh*t... pardon my word.

 

[Luc Starsider]

Hmmm... Odd, indeed.

I don't think I can give any useful advice on this. I don't know enough about this. Hopefully, someone comes along who can give the information needed to get the viewer working as it should.

- Luc -

[Coby Foden]

---

River Abonwood wrote:

 

CPU: AMD Phenom II N970 Quad-Core Processor (2194.52 MHz)

Memory: 3839 MB

OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit Service Pack 1 (Build 7601)

Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.

Graphics Card: ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4200 Series

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 8.17.0010.1119

OpenGL Version: 3.3.11554 Compatibility Profile Context

---

For comparison, here are my specs:

CPU: Intel® Core i7-2600K CPU @ 3.40GHz (3411.15 MHz)

Memory: 8169 MB

OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit Service Pack 1 (Build 7601)

Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation

Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 560 Ti/PCI/SSE2

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 8.17.0012.8562

OpenGL Version: 4.2.0

All V3 based viewers run excellently (naturally so do V1 based viewers). High frame rates with high graphics settings. Crashes are almost non existent.

Interesting thing is that for me the frame rates in V1 (even in non mesh enabled V1 viewers) and V3 viewers are very similar, no big difference between them.

Only thing what I can think of is that mesh enabled viewers indeed do have higher demands for the GPU than non-mesh enabled ones. When the demands are met, then the mesh viewers run well. I have no idea could the mesh code be tweaked so that it would be fast also in lower spec computers. Maybe not?

Oh, by the way, have you tried different driver versions for your graphics card?  Sometimes it can be so that the latest driver is not the fastest one.

 

[Linda Brynner]

The 560 is a top graphics card so no wonder no difference is seen... lol. SL is to be for average cards not just top notch.

Many log in with a notebook with an average or a tad older card but perfectly within recommendations. Many do suffer all of the sudden since V2.8. But no not you the 560 is a top of the range card LOL.

[Kukla Lavender]

i'm so lost by all these...    (i'm not good with tech stuff!!!!)

 

here is the info for my comp... the virewer is so laggy that it missese letters when i type as well as major time between clicking an item and having it pop up or load... i'm so frusterated! 

 

Firestorm 4.0.1 (27000) Mar 19 2012 16:21:21 (Firestorm-Release)
Release Notes

CPU: AMD Turion II Dual-Core Mobile M500 (2194.46 MHz)
Memory: 5885 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit Service Pack 1 (Build 7601)
Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
Graphics Card: ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4200 Series

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 8.17.0010.1119
OpenGL Version: 3.3.11566 Compatibility Profile Context

RestrainedLove API: (disabled)
libcurl Version: libcurl/7.21.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8q zlib/1.2.5 c-ares/1.7.1
J2C Decoder Version: KDU
Audio Driver Version: FMOD version 3.750000
Qt Webkit Version: 4.7.1 (version number hard-coded)
Voice Server Version: Not Connected
Settings mode: Hybrid
Viewer Skin: metaharper (cool_ocean)
Font Used: Liberation (96)
Draw distance : 168
Bandwidth : 1500
LOD factor : 6
Built with MSVC version 1600

[River Abonwood]

You might try lowering your bandwidth to 500 or 1000 - it sounds crazy, but it actually does help because if your bandwidth is set too high, you will lag.  Also, try setting to gaming mode instead of hybrid mode in your graphics card settings, that helped a little bit for me.   I am currently back to running Phoenix 1185 again, and I am able to run on mid, but with a lot of things tweeked to give me better fps.  I completely turned off antialiasing, Anisotropic Filtering, turned off enable VBOs, and Open GL Vertex Buffer Objects, and took texture memory down to 256.   All of this can be found in edit>preferences>Phoenix>Graphics>Hardware Settings. I also unchecked, under Avatar Rendering, in Graphics, Hardware Skinning and Avatar Imposters.  That seemed to help some also.  Also, set your lighting detail to sun and moon only, instead of nearby local lights.   

Again, these are just some things that worked out for me, with my graphics card - maybe they will work for you as well, as you also have an ATI.

And yes, for the record .... SL was not designed for just those with top of the line specs/machines.   I could not have said it better myself.  I really wish that LL would just stop messing about with things that no one has asked for, that no one wants, and just FIX the issues that have been around since 2006!!!  

[Coby Foden]

---

River Abonwood wrote:

 

And yes, for the record .... SL was not designed for just those with top of the line specs/machines.   I could not have said it better myself.  I really wish that LL would just stop messing about with things that no one has asked for, that no one wants, and just

FIX

the issues that have been around since 2006!!!  

---

But what if it actually was designed for higher spec machines than just so that the "average" ones could run it well too?  How do you know that it wasn't?  I'm sure that the developers of viewers do use higher than "average" computers to develop viewers.  They might once in a while check how they run in "average" computers.  They might see that it is not satisfactory.  They try to fix things.  But there is only so much what can be done.  There is no magic formula to make "shiny" things to run smoothly in all computers.  Requirements are requirements.

What should be understood that SL is graphics intensive environment.  It needs certain "above the average" horsepower from the hardware to work smoothly.  It just cannot run well in "average" computers.

To FIX it so that it would run well also in lower spec computers would mean making SL less beautiful, abandon mesh for example.  Stopping developing even more "shinier" things, like bump mapping for example.  How many really would want that - stopping totally the development of things which will make the virtual world to look really amazing?

Didn't we want mesh?  As I remember it, lots of people were eagerly and enthusiastically waiting, when will we have mesh. Oh when, when?  Don't we like that SL looks beautiful?  I guess many do.  So, Linden Lab is not always "messing about with things that no one has asked for".  Sometimes, occasionally they even do what we the users ask for.

 

PS.

As the majority of complaints "SL runs so slow for me, what can I do" come from people with "average" or even lower than "average" spec computer users, isn't it a clear message that SL really does need more horsepower to run well?  Of course it is a pity for those who cannot afford to get faster computer.  But no magician will suddenly appear out of the blue to make the impossible possible.

 

[Luc Starsider]

I mainly agree with you.

I'm not sure a fix would be to abandon mesh. I'm pretty sure a better fix would be to do whatever necessary to get rid of all sculpties, and replacing them with properly done mesh objects. I believe that would benefit everybody including those who are using lower, or average, spec computers.

I also have a feeling that content creators using unnecessarily large textures in their builds are contributing greatly to the lag lots of people get.

Otherwise I agree. Things shouldn't stop being developed and improved because some - or lots - of people do not have above average spec computers. You can always lower the graphics settings, and slowly these computers will be replaced by better ones (which may very well be average by the time they are used in SL).

ETA: My computer is probably average. I don't want things to stop up because of it, though.

- Luc -

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Kukla Lavender wrote:

i'm so lost by all these...    (i'm not good with tech stuff!!!!)

 

here is the info for my comp... the virewer is so laggy that it missese letters when i type as well as major time between clicking an item and having it pop up or load... i'm so frusterated! 

 

Firestorm 4.0.1 (27000) Mar 19 2012 16:21:21 (Firestorm-Release)

Release Notes

CPU: AMD Turion II Dual-Core Mobile M500 (2194.46 MHz)

Memory: 5885 MB

OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit Service Pack 1 (Build 7601)

Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.

Graphics Card: ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4200 Series

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 8.17.0010.1119

OpenGL Version: 3.3.11566 Compatibility Profile Context

RestrainedLove API: (disabled)

libcurl Version: libcurl/7.21.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8q zlib/1.2.5 c-ares/1.7.1

J2C Decoder Version: KDU

Audio Driver Version: FMOD version 3.750000

Qt Webkit Version: 4.7.1 (version number hard-coded)

Voice Server Version: Not Connected

Settings mode: Hybrid

Viewer Skin: metaharper (cool_ocean)

Font Used: Liberation (96)

Draw distance : 168

Bandwidth : 1500

LOD factor : 6

Built with MSVC version 1600

---

Kukla - try lowering your draw distance (Firestorm has a slider for it, if I remember it) and your LOD factor is very high - I've never raised mine above 4 and my computer is more powerful than yours. If you haven't already, go into "Preferences" - "Graphics" - "Hardware" and uncheck the box next to "Use OpenGL Vertex Buffer Objects." Also, never try to run SL on a laptop on the battery alone. Power saving is the last thing SL needs.

[Coby Foden]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Kukla Lavender wrote:

. . .

LOD factor : 6

. . .

---

Kukla - try lowering your draw distance (Firestorm has a slider for it, if I remember it) and your LOD factor is very high - I've never raised mine above 4 and my computer is more powerful than yours.

---

I have heard it said in Phoenix/Firestorm Support group that LOD factor = 4 is the highest what is sensible to use. Raising it above four does not bring any benefit or enhancement in rendering.