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I would partly like to know what people think, and like to pass on a little information to those who often ask and others who may find it interesting.

Some out there that use the Vortex Adult Sandbox, will know I am one of the volunteers there that help the newbies find their feet, others with general problems, and try to control the griefing to at least some small degree.

Now the group of us the volunteer there, do exactly that, we volunteer, no payment, no big rewards, we do it because we want to help people and make their experiences in sl better.  Officially we were meant to be a group there to help which is why you will see the group listed on the land, and why there was a Linden in ownership of the group (sadly one that left quite some time ago now).  There were always plans that the Vortex would be a sandbox, a help and information point, and an outreach centre, so the volunteers always worked towards those goals and ideas.

Unfortunately plans have apparently changed and what many saw as an innovative idea is now just half remembered dreams.  It seems we can't go setting a precedent in a Linden owned sandbox, because then everyone would want the same and it is two hard for the powers that be to say no to others and not have all treated as equals in the sl world.  Well I hate to say this but...THAT DOESN"T HAPPEN NOW, sorry for shouting, just some in the back don't seem to get that message.  Many community groups and individuals in sl get support in various ways, and that is wonderful.  Because of that others (like those at Vortex) go "why not us?"  Well LL has every right to just say 'sorry, not happening', which I for one would not complain about if so many had been given a false hope so to speak for so long.  It is one think to go up so someone and go "can I do this?" and then be told no. It is another thing to go "this is a great idea, can we work on it together?", and then get a yes no yes no all the way along, every now and then having a tidbit dropped so you keep the light burning.  Vortex is not like the other non premium LL sandboxes, for a start it is Adult, and that means it works a little differently anyway, so there is no reason it could not be set up differently in the eyes of others.

Some people have tried to get the volunteer group out of Vortex for various reasons, many simply petty.  Some seem to think the group just wants the prestige of  keeping a sandbox in some sort of order, Ohhh the power bow down before....ummm excuse me a moment pretend you didn't see that. It is felt that if we had the ability to ban people, we would be kicking there rear ends before their feet even hit the dust (yes to those that still didn't know even though I certainly always say, the Vortex staff have no powers to ban, eject, or return).  Some think that we are the reason that griefing is really bad at times in the sandbox, because the griefers hate us, we are like a magnet for them.
Well for one thing whether we were there or not, there would be griefers.  Go to any LL sandbox, and there is griefers, because there is noone to stop them.  Private sandboxes, well they are another matter, they are often very pleasant places (cue grassy plains and tweeting birds).   Now there are some pleasant LL sandboxes too, the are for premium members and people on a paid account would be pretty dumb to go griefing.  The are also boring for many.  This is one of the many areas that LL tends to fail as they don't seem to have enough staff go out there and be part of the real sl world, see how it actually works, she what people want and how they behave.  At the moment there is an obvious drive towards people becoming paid members, and I understand that, this is ultimately a business, but this is not an ordinary business, it very much has to make it's customers happy. Premium sandboxes, premium places to relax and explore in etc, sure they are nice, but there is something missing, a big something, most of our friends.

The Vortex sandbox is not just a sandbox, it never has been.  It is a sandbox, it is a help centre, and it is very much a social space.  Go there at any given time, and you will see a few people keeping to themselves building, and then you will see pairs and little groups chatting and playing around.  Premium boxes kill that, it separates us into classes, the haves and the have nots.  The regulars in the sandbox love it and treat it as their home, so they dislike intensely someone coming in and messing up the joint, so they turn to us for help, offer help, and give what support they can.  Some of the members of the sandbox are reformed griefers (I know, I helped reform them), so they know a few tricks to help with things.  Some people are good at talking to various griefers and getting them to move on, I have done that on a couple of occasions, usually by tapping into some others interest that they have and helping them realise it.  Failing that, I keep the griefers busy, I chat with them, I follow them, so that they feel they have to try and deal with me to stop the annoyance.  By making myself a target, it gives others a chance to get out of the line of fire and to sometimes even build or whatever that they normally do.  I make myself a target, simply to help others, I don't want to be a target, but with no other tools, that is about all I can do to help.

I am told we can't have any powers now as the sandbox should be free for all to use.  Well #1 it isn't free now, the griefers drive many off and make it impossible. Secondly, I certainly don't want it to be anything other than open and free to all, I personally don't need ban as an ability, griefer dumps objects, just return objects, eject would be nice simply so they might wake up, stop, and communicate.  I would happily file a report to someone anytime I used an ability and under what circumstances if that would help.  But as it is, to be in a sandbox, encased in all the junk you have been griefed with and obvious to see from anywhere in the sandbox, and have a Linden turn up for a look around, and who has the ability to free you from the caging and spaming stuff, and ignore you when you talk to them, it just says stuff you, LL does not care at all.  It would be nice if they showed that wasn't true

In the end though, it is the people that need to make their voices heard about stuff, including what things should or should not be happening at Vortex.

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I've always thought that the Vortex team needed the ability to control griefers through any of the common scripted security systems, perhaps augmented with a facility to annotate any bans with an explanation and AR reference that would be included in a report to whatever group does "governance" for the Lab.

The problem might be that there's nobody tasked to read any such reports, nor any policy about how to react to them. So, the questions would arise, "What would be the criteria for determining an inappropriate ban?  And then what? How bad does it have to be to remove access to the ban hammer?"  It's certainly possible to work out these things, but the benefit would have to far outweigh the cost of devising and enforcing such a policy -- just at a time when LL has been explicitly pulling back from any hands-on role in SL community affairs.

And that pulling back is pretty widespread.  I'm really not sure what community groups are contemplated here:

Many community groups and individuals in sl get support in various ways, and that is wonderful.

I honestly don't know of any group that previously enjoyed some Linden involvement that hasn't seen it diminish. The Vortex group is certainly not the only one to need to shift their mission and strategy as a result, and Adult sandbox users are not the only residents who cannot be served by such groups in the same way as before.

So that's a challenge: How to shift the group's mission and/or strategy to deal with the current Linden approach to community.

One possibility that might be worth exploring would be to switch Vortex to a privately owned sandbox. It really doesn't have to be any particular place on the grid, so maybe it could become part of the Adult Hub, or some other commercial Adult enterprise, if it can generate enough business to make that viable.  (Maybe contests and other events could draw traffic to a host location... although being physically separated by void--nice for a sandbox--would make that difficult.)

Another option might be to dissociate the several separate parts of the Vortex mission.  It's nice that there's a non-Premium Adult sandbox where one can go for help and events, as a kind of "one stop shop"... but the separate bits of that are readily available elsewhere, so maybe the group members end up choosing other, less comprehensive initiatives with which to become involved.

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So the Lindens can't even manage a Sandbox issue now? I use the Vortex Sandbox and also participated in the speed building event twice. I suck however it is a Social Event and I get to see what other people can do with their skills. It's the best Sandbox I have used. It's FAST and BIG. I'm surprised how busy it is actually. I have also been there when it was being grieved. I contacted Ginette and within 5 minutes the object was removed. Can LL do that? I'm waiting for them to find my lost inventory from 2 years ago. I am one of those evil "free members". You know the kind that have spent hundreds of real $$$ purchasing projects in a virtual world for virtual objects that can disappear in an instant. And that money eventually ends up in LL pockets anyway flowing thru the economy to eventually Land Sales. If you remove the free user SL will rapidly grind to a halt and fail. Guaranteed. I also have produce Machinima celebrating what can be done in SL with ZERO help from LL yet I'm promoting their product for free. So if they want to charge then maybe they should also been paying me? How much money would be in the economy so that vendors could pay their real estate fees if you had no free members? With no free memebers Entertainment Venues would probably all go bust not to mention the Fashion Industry as well. they all need consumers the vast majority (I assume) who are free members. the word "free" being code that LL doesn't get $$$ from them directly which is the only way LL seems to be able to think. I get them impression a lot of the people there making decisions do not know or even want to use SL?

Great blog

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My heart goes out to Huntress and all of the Vortex staff who have worked hard for so long to do so much, and had such amazing impact. The past weeks have been very depressing to me regarding this topic, I dont mind saying......and so much of it has been totally avoidable if leadership from LL had been professional.

There are some basic, well documented facts that should shine some light on the siuation.

1. Vortex was proposed by residents in a very open process, with LL, actually, to fill a need to have a Help Center on adult mainland and help Adult SL in general. (the sandbox aspect was actually added later...Vortex was initially a mentor and outreach center. Sandbox was added to make the idea more appealing. Note that it is/was called Zindra Help Vortex (emphasis on the 'help' word and not mentioning 'sandbox') This matters.

2. From the absolute very beginning, the plan was to make something different, soemthing new....a new precedent. Residents responded to the new, sophisticated approach very well. People loved the Vortex. They were tired of the griefer-ridden LL sandboxes elsewhere, and loved the attention and caring at Vortex. The place was busy from day one. Negative situations were usually handled with conversation....ARs very rare. As Huntress explained, sometimes griefers have been converted into productive builders. It can happen with a safe, caring environment. The Vortex has benefiited adults. Encouraged new skills, new business, an attractive adult aspect of SL.

3. The Vortex staff has grown during the beginning days, and classes/workshops have become more frequent. People WANT the various aspects of Vortex.  Voertx has worked as an attraction element: I have proof. Testimonials, etc. I know people that started their SL lives in Vortex and stayed because of it. The only people Ive noticed having issues with the Vortex staff (aside from griefers) are the very slim minority of people who never were involved in Vortex in the first place (and never showed any interest in it anyway). The usual way it seems to work. They sit in the corner and complain. That's expected, but if the Lab prioritizes those complaints over the work the actual staff is doing....well, thats a leadership issue.

4. Changing the name of the Vortex's actual region was the first clear sign of trouble:

- removing 'Zindra' from the name was a pointless endeavor that only lessened the place's unqiue identity

- adding 'adult sandbox' to the name only opened the door in Search for more griefers, including underage residents who like to find 'adult' things. (talk to some of the Vortex griefers and you may notice some talk like 7-year olds). This is not progress and in fact, is a setup for a major disaster. I don't think I need to elaborate there. The name change coincided with an immediate uprise in griefers,

- the name change also was an indicator that the Lab considered the Vortex simply a sandbox, and not a help center at all. This is important to note, because anyone who knows how social engineering works, knows that you can start to control or destroy soemthing by changing definitions. Redefining Vortex as a 'sandbox' now meant that certain individuals can talk abt the Vortex in those terms, comparing to other sandboxes, etc.....eliminating the unique qualities of the project.

5. There are other examples out there of LL land which is managed by residents successfuly. I won't list them here. The truth is, if the administration wanted this to work as a safe and productive project, its an easy fix. As it happens, steps have been taken to water down this project, redefine it, and refuse to keep an open mind about options. If you connect the dots, its easy to see this is a path to termination. I am NOT sayi9ng this is intentionally malicious. Regardless of intent, the results are the same, though.

6. The staff is given no recourse for problem resolution, and only told to file ARs (which doesnt actually address the issue at all). Or they are told to file Support Tickets....but Support redirects the inquiry back to the group owner (LL).....who then redirects the inquiries back to Support. This circle equates to no resolution, ever.

7. Anyone who equates managing the Vortex with 'getting free land' from LL obviously has no concept of work and dedication....no capacity for respecting their neighbours....and no understanding of the value of time. The staff has provided countless hours of (unpaid) mentoring, teaching, marketing, promotion, networking, policing, diplomacy....all to benefit others. And all in an open process anyone could join.

8. How bad is it now? Its risky to even teleport there now. Its almost impossible to hold classes. Most of the staff are so dissilusioned they are not active at moment. Visitors are routinley attacked.sexually harassed/hacked and the dim itself is often covered from one end to otehr by griefing objects.

The policies of the current adniminstartion have resulted directly in the destruction of a once-fruitful project...


Its NEVER too late to turn it around.

All of this can be fixed in a number of ways. Just takes willpower, great communication, TRUST and the right personalities in the right positions.

- Here's to the future - Gina



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5. There are other examples out there of LL land which is managed by residents successfuly. I won't list them here. 

Are there?

The only one I can think of that may still operate that way is Blake Sea.  I'm not sure about that one, either, but if it does have direct resident control of those sims, it might have been something worked out with those very large estate owners when the partnership was new.  It's a rather different situation than any others I know, because of the quite substantial revenue those private estate sims generate for the Lab. If that is enough to get them more control, it would be another reason to try to piggyback Vortex with some large Adult commercial concern.

But if there are other examples, it would be good to know more about them, to see if there's some way to leverage whatever they're doing -- and not only for Vortex.  For example, Bay City could greatly benefit from some degree of resident community control over Linden-owned land in its midst. It has been plagued by griefers off-and-on as long as it has existed, and in recent days I daresay it would give Vortex some competition for most-griefed land on the grid.  We try to downplay it, but the truth is, if something doesn't change there soon, it will be a ghost town.

That reminds me of a question: Do Vortex members have authority to return objects on the sim? If they don't, that would be as important as scripted banning rights, for operating a sandbox.  (And if they do, it would be a precedent for taking that further step.)

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The griefing subject is coming up more often in Linden User Group/Office Hour meetings. In Friday's meeting with Andrew and Simon one of the region owners was asking about his region that had already crashed 6 times on Friday.

Because of the slow down in server maintenance package roll outs the grid has been unusually stable. We should see a blog post with some graphs the week of 3/26. 

When Andrew looked at the server the LL dnoc was already looking at the problem. Also, some projects running on ADITI are running heavy debug code that cuts performance to 1/10th normal. These regions are subject to slow down attacks and some have been hit by griefers.

It seems the Lindens are well aware of the problem. For the Adult Community the problem seems to be the lack of a good connection between the Lindens actually handling the problem and members of the community. The Lindens have the basic policy to NOT discuss security problems. The lack of good liason skills in those Linden managing community relations is probably the core issue here.

I suggest talking to those Lindens we each know and have good relationships with. Keep up the chatter and requestss for help. May be the company will start to realize there is a problem.

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I would settle for Vortex Staff ARs(ARs from Staff at the Vortex) being give some sort of priority status.

I do not mean auto approved just looked at a lot faster then the flood of petty ARs that LL must get. We are staff members in an LL group on LL land that should get some priority,

I do not see how anyone can see this as not sensible or unreasonable.

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No, we can't return objects on the sim.. that's why its so difficult keep it under control sometimes. If we are not able to talk and negotiate with griefers to get em cooperating.. we fail, vortex win one more faithful griefer because LL wont ban him eigther. The good part on my case (i like to search the good side of everything) is that I've learn to be more patient.. and why not, I feel I little retrieved when I change griefers's ideas and they start cooperating and involving we our little community. Sadly in a lot of cases this is just an impossible mission.

My opinion is that that the ban skill is not necessary for our work.. it implies a different responsibility. But return objects is necessary sometimes.

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Yeah, I definitely see the value of being able to return griefer objects; the unfortunate thing is that this part can't be mediated by script, whereas the banning thing could be.

I also understand that in theory all this could be handled by Linden governance if they were able to respond very promptly. In practice, however... well, it just doesn't happen (anywhere) and I'm really not sure it's practically scalable for all the places it is needed.

That, however, would lead us down an unfortunate line of thinking: Governance of Linden land cannot be delegated to non-Linden residents; Linden's own governance cannot practically scale to handle griefers on Linden land; without management of griefing on Linden land, the Second Life experience has no appeal for residents and especially landowners.... There's a pretty ugly conclusion to be drawn about the viability of this whole Second Life thing, at least to the extent it exposes anybody to Linden land.

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  • 4 weeks later...

It was nice to see the issues of griefing raised at the ACUG meeting, what was not nice was to see the Lindens apparently still don't have a clue how to deal with it, or are not willing to deal with it.

Things have actually been better at the adult sandbox recently (although I have been told that the last day or two things are slipping again), and it has been nice to see the residents relaxing again finally.  Wow, people actually building, little groups chatting here and there, and every time I looked from far away via the map (so nice not getting calls of HELP WE'RE BEING GRIEFED), I would see at least 20 little green dots, and usually closer to or over 40.  Look at the map during the days when the Vortex was constantly under fire, and you were lucky if even in the quiet times between attacks you made it to 20, mostly it would be half that.

So what made the difference?  The AR's started to work a bit more quickly.  The average resident was not convinced of this, but as someone who had spent many hours in the sandbox playing target, I had the opportunity to see the current offender suddenly 'leave' the area, and all their little toys go too.  Sometimes the toys would disappear after the one that had left had long gone, but they didn't seem to have been around long enough for the auto clean, and they disappeared as in "POOF" all at once, not 'pop' 'pop' 'POP'.  I am not that stronger believer in coincidence.  This was only a small difference, and still took quite some time to happen, but it was better than the nothing we seemed to be getting before.

A bomb was finally dropped, pointing out some pretty major reasons a SERIOUS effort had to be made deal with the ongoing issue, and a light shone down upon the Vortex.  It was nice to see that the regular idiots were being told your actions WILL get some response, and you won't like it.  The alts kept coming of course, and they did not seem to care too much if a Linden happened to be standing right there in the sandbox, but they were slowing down, and I don't think they were finding the games quite as fun, because they kept ending quicker.  Sadly, Lindens can't stand in one little sandbox all day and all night guarding in, and the nasty ones know this.  So just wait until the lab closes for the night and again run unimpeded.

So next a little research, I won't actually say what I found and why, as I am not certain what little pests might read this and actually learn from it.  It did not involve the Lindens directly, but it did involve me mentioning that they were more involved with Vortex and I doubt they would be happy if I had to get them to make the request I was making.  I also pointed out that they had to deal with me being a pain, but that was not my fault, it was the fault of particular idiot griefers, so all the better to take care of them.  Well the light shone done before, and now the clouds were gone.  We all waited, but it stayed quiet.  I had no calls yelling for help (mmm the peace, just dealing with the darling newbies for a change), I would pop over and the sandbox floor was clear of junk, wonderful.

Of course we all know that the ideal situation was not going to be permanent.

So the little fiends, with their little toys are sneaking back in again, and it will not take long to become a major problem once more.  So then we get back to the "What do we do?"  Idea so far have been failing so far, because they ask too much.  Doesn't pay to ask for the keys to the car, when you have not shown you can drive responsibly, in some cases you have shown the complete opposite.  So expecting powers to ban whether by land/group granted, or script, is not likely to EVER be on the table, forget that one and move on.  Just eject?  Possible, but still unlikely.  Return objects, more than possible, because it has been done in the past, unfortunately for some reason even if granted, does not always work.

AR AR AR do so love those two letters (like hell), we are constantly told to do it and for the most part we think why bother?  The reporting system needs to really be looked at, for a start there isn't any decent choice for 'griefing' anyway.  I have coached a few people on what choice to pick with the various attacks, so that it will be picked high for response.  I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure some selections rate higher than others for being responded to, and I can imagine what some of those are.

'Safe landing zones'  Why just have them in weapon sandboxes?  All sandboxes should have them around there entry points.  I admit I am not sure what they can and can't stop (feel free to enlighten me), but I know they help in some ways, and I can't imagine that is a really big ask to get done.

Ban the really bad repeat offenders, not just from Vortex.  The Labs would have to have more than enough evidence, how many AR's, from how many different people, on how many occasions does it take?  The Vortex users are very protective of what they see as their sandbox, so they are very quick to fire off AR's, it is not just the volunteers there, so why does it take so long for more decent action to take place?  and why does it take just as long to react when an alt pops up and it is obvious it is an alt doing the same thing? 

There are other things that can be done. But I will leave it there.  I would like to hear of more possible solutions and ideas from people, things that a quite possible to have happen, not things that will just serve to cut communication lines.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I visited vortex a few weeks ago after reading this post, and only stayed long enough to get grief which took about 30 seconds.  I came back a few other time and got the same thing.  Looking at how LL has dealt with griefing in the past  filling an AR doesn't do much at all, I can't imagine it's gotten better.  Looking at the chart it makes me wonder just how hard is it to get banned for griefing.


The adult premium sand boxes are great I've never had a problem there.  I don't think LL will ever do any thing serious to stop griefing in public sand boxes, it's their single best advertisement for owning land if you need a quite place to build.  I'm tired of how LL treats people so didn't renew my yearly premium account his year, I was hopping to use vortex as a place to build, I all so don't mind helping new residents out too, so thought it would be a good place for me, but the griefing is just to much there.

I would suggest having all the ACUG meeting in vortex, so LL can enjoy the hostile environment too.


After posting I read the  ACUG noted for the last meeting and decided to go back and see if it was better, and it was (keeps her fingers crossed.)  This time a actually was able to look around, one thing I noticed that I really liked was the teleports to a building platform up in the sky, great way to give people more room to build!  

Any one have an idea of what changed that the griefing got better.


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Would be nice to see a current grid survey, you used to be able to see the current suff just into your login page, but like the total of who is online, that is hidden away now.  Seems to be very much a policy of hide it all away in the basement so we can pretend all is fine.  Well it isn't working, we still know there are problems, so how about really dealing with them rather than sweeping them under the carpet.

I haven't just helped out in Vortex recently with griefing, I have also helped friends with shops on the normal mainland.  When I ask for griefing to be dealt with, I mean everywhere, for everyone, not just premium people.  Subject in general in another place I think.  As far as Vortex goes, things were cleaned up and eased, there was a very good chance to build on that, but the window is rapidly closing.

Griefing is once again building of course, there is again no big deterant, the griefers know this as they have been progressively testing the water.  These patterns are obvious to those that spend enough time there, and LL has the capability to see plenty on their various sytems I am sure that would be far superior to what we could put together.

One of the more capable griefers has returned to Vortex now, he sees himself as a champion of the sandbox, and has openly declared war on all that volunteer there, and any that he sees as abusers (sadly all too often innnocent users that just don't fit the mould of the 'enforcer').  The challenge was anounced to all that would listen both publicly in the Vortex sandbox, and in the Zexpo group.  With a declaration that says, my friends and I with grief and harrass until this place is as we want it to be, will LL act?  Very few think so, after all it is just one sandbox, and it is a public one to boot, hadly worth any time or effort.  Let one be seen to fall, watch all of them fall.

Their are many that support the volunteers, you won't here from them all of course as they were helped and moved on.  There are 'regulars' in the sandbox who see how much some of the volunteers put into the sandbox, and appreciate and even help them.  there are those like the enforcer, that would prefer all volunteer staff gone, and then there is everyone else that has no care or clue either way.

There is supporters on both sides and what each side has to say has some merit and some detriment.  so what is in fact being argued over and therefore causing some of the griefing?

Should there be official volunteers

Should volunteers have any powers

What powers might/should volunteers have


Many do not know or understand what the current state of affairs is, to know what people do or don't want.  So lets see..

There is official volunteers

Volunteers try to help folk with any sensible query, not just ones related to the/a sandbox. :- This includes the most common questions around sex in sl since it is one of the first adult places they land in, also how to get started with money and items, how to 'play the game',and just generally, what can you do in sl?

The Vortex has many repeat visitors, who once they return, will then ask about things like building, however they don't return if their first visit was at the same time as a griefing attack.those that were helped once, will return again and again, and bring new people.

The volunteers are able to place items down for people that have information, instructions, rules, or can help things run more smoothly and cleaner like teleport pads up to a sky platfom which is to keep big builds up off the floor, or pose stands and so on.  These itens stay put as they have been put down by 'staff'

Volunteers can do nothing else, they have no other powers at all.  When trouble strikes, they try to be diplomatic, use tatics they have found worked in the past (not always diplomatic), and help those around them that are suffring and have no idea about ways to help themsleves (sit on a block, drop down graphics settings etc).  As a volunteer, knowing that I am a prime target, I will position myselt into a corner or all the way to a side and let a griefer amuse themselves so that for the most part the rest of the sand box is left alone.

Vortex was never intended to be 'just' a sandbox, so for some claim they are fighting for it to be a public sandbox with no one 'in change' like it is meant to be is actually wrong.  Some people realise this as they do things like take the tome to read the group charter and in fact take into account that there is even a group.  Volunteers are human, they make mistakes, things like guidelines to follow are still being worked out, but between the griefers and LL, things get constantly delayed, and no one even knows if they should bother since always in limbo.  The group has done a lot of work, they have not just been standing hands out begging.

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