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How did the universe come into existence?


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Lucinda Bulloch wrote:

Think I am wasting my time, so to be in a band is cool so all he thinks must be right to, LOL.

He was in D:ream they must have been one of the most uncoolest bands ever. Take That wannabes are how the press dubbed them at the time. Plus he looks like a woman in that video. So no, not cool.

However his ability to present complex science to the general public is cool. He gets good ratings and gets people watching programs about science rather than all that dreadful reality show rubbish. Anyone that can successfully present science on mainstream TV is cool in my book.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Porky Gorky wrote:

I am currently digging the multi-verse theory, in fact I am becoming more convinced that we are living inside a black hole. I think there were multiple universes in existence before ours. In one of those universes a black hole formed and the energy released during the formation of that black hole resulted in our big bang and the subsequent inflation and expansion of our universe. In turn I think every black hole that appears in our universe creates a new universe on the other side.

That is the theory that most intrigues me at the moment.

Multi-universes is fine with me - as long as you don't mean the "many worlds" theory, which is plain stupid, even though some scientists give it some credence. However, that doesn't even begin to answer your own original question, which is "
How did the universe come into existence?
"

 

I don’t believe in god in any of the conventional forms found in our religions. But I do believe in a form of intelligent design.

That's fair enough. Something or someone with the intelligence to design the universe is the being/god that/who created it.

 

But your question is, how did the universe come into existance, and I've asked myself the same thing quite recently - how did the existance of everything come actually to exist? was my question. There are two main theories - 1) the 'Big Bang', and 2) it was always there. But neither of those addresses the question. The Big Bang may well answer what happened at the time it all came to exist (space, matter and time), but it doesn't answer the question 'how come it happened?'. The 'always there' idea doesn't answer it either. How come it was always there? Where did it come from?

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that something created existance (space, matter and time) - your intelligent designer. So, to answer your question, an intelligent designer created the universe.

Couldn't space, matter, and time have been created by the random acts of forces of which we are not even aware of?  

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Couldn't space, matter, and time have been created by the random acts of forces of which we are not even aware of?  

Yes, but how come those forces existed?

There could have been many previous stages/phases of existance, but it still comes down to the question, how come anything (the universe - space, time and matter) exists? How come? The conclusion must be that something created it, and before that happened, no space, time and matter existed. Then, of course, we ask, how come that creator existed? but that's not the question of the thread - thank goodness :)

Just in passing... I like to think of a singularity as outside the universe. The (our) universe is expanding, so it has an outer edge(?). I like to think of the singularity as being the other side of that outer edge, and it being just one and the same point in what we think of as space and time.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Couldn't space, matter, and time have been created by the random acts of forces of which we are not even aware of?  

Yes, but how come those forces existed?

There could have been many previous stages/phases of existance, but it still comes down to the question, how come anything (the universe - space, time and matter) exists? How come? The conclusion must be that something created it, and before that happened, no space, time and matter existed. Then, of course, we ask, how come that creator existed? but that's not the question of the thread - thank goodness
:)

Just in passing... I like to think of a singularity as outside the universe. The (our) universe is expanding, so it has an outer edge(?). I like to think of the singularity as being the other side of that outer edge, and it being just one and the same point in what we think of as space and time.

I don't see how the only conclusion can be that something must have created it. It can be one conclusion, but not the only one.

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wiked Anton wrote:

i believe in God, and you call it intelligent design.....so what? you may not think you pray, but you talk to it anyway. so there ya go.....you think you all by yourself, but you not am i?............there is just way too much going on here for it to be an accident, coincedence, or anyting ese. you can believe aliens came and spat on our dirt and up we sprang, and it that is the caes, where are they now?...the only "ufo's" are man made experiemntal craft.anyway, you can belive what you wish (goes for everybody) and if its wrong you have to go to hell without a fuss....coz you were warned....

There is no clear consensus on the nature of god in our civilisation. Literally thousands of gods and deity's have been documented. The concept of gods have essentially been created throughout our history to compensate for our lack of understanding, it has also been used to impose order and force doctrine onto people.  People have swapped religion for science as a way to answer their questions but science has revealed such a complex universe that some are still forced to compensates for their ignorance by believing in an intelligent design as I do. If you want to call the intelligent design God, then that is fine with me. 

As for the existence of Heaven and Hell and the Christian God, or any other god for that matter, well I can't disprove them. In a multi-verse containing an infinite number of universes I guess it would be a certainty that your vision of heaven and hell does exists, especially if you factor in theories on parallel universes and parallel multi-verses. Everything you can imagine has, does and will exist. 

You bring up UFO's which is an interesting discussion in it's own right. LIke you, I don't believe UFO's have visited earth. I do believe that life exists and evolves outside of this planet, how could I not when I consider the vastness of the universe? I think the components for our universe were created through intelligent design and the big bang was the delivery system, from there I believe everything is down to natural selection from the ability of stars to host habitable plants to those habitable planets having the necessary components and conditions to create life, to that life evolving an intelligence. I think the odds of any given Star hosting a planet of space-faring aliens is extremely tiny. But the number of stars in our galaxy alone is astronomical so that will still result in many hundreds of thousands of civilisations having existed in just our galaxy. However due to the vastness of time only a few thousand exists today. 

I guess we also need to consider parallel universes and other dimensions as a source for alien visitors but I've spouted enough nonsense for now so I sill stop. :matte-motes-asleep-2:

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Oh I forgot to ridicule that TV show Ancient Aliens, has anyone seen that? Those guys are desperately clutching at straws more and more in every episode. In their eyes Humans have achieved nothing and Aliens are pretty much responsible for every achievement Mankind has made in history, And it has become more ludicrous the longer the show stays on the air as they have to invent more content. Good entertainment but utter nonsense IMO.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that something created existance (space, matter and time) - your intelligent designer. So, to answer your question, an intelligent designer created the universe.

ALthough that is my current belief, I don't believe it 100%. Not completely convinced. We are trapped in a  bubble and until we can escape that bubble and look at it from the outside, put it into context, I don't think we'll ever be sure.

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Porky Gorky wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that something created existance (space, matter and time) - your intelligent designer. So, to answer your question, an intelligent designer created the universe.

ALthough that is my current belief, I don't believe it 100%. Not completely convinced. We are trapped in a  bubble and until we can escape that bubble and look at it from the outside, put it into context, I don't think we'll ever be sure.

Phil, the idea that one MUST conclude an intelligent designer is simply dogma, isn't it? I understand the allure of that conclusion, but like Porky, I'm willing to express uncertainty over it, and accept the possibility we may never know. What I do believe is that our ability and desire to believe in creators, particularly benevolent ones with lovely hereafters, is most likely the result of natural selection. It's easier to slog through a difficult life if there's a virgin, comfy furniture and fresh fruit waiting for you in the afterlife. Singing about that while you wait helps too.

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Porky Gorky wrote:

Oh I forgot to ridicule that TV show Ancient Aliens, has anyone seen that? Those guys are desperately clutching at straws more and more in every episode. In their eyes Humans have achieved nothing and Aliens are pretty much responsible for every achievement Mankind has made in history, And it has become more ludicrous the longer the show stays on the air as they have to invent more content. Good entertainment but utter nonsense IMO.

I've never owned a TV, so haven't been accosted by such silliness there. I posted this elsewhere recently, but it's applicable here too..

ETA: I like Lisa Randall's take on "absolute truth" near the end of this...

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And what if there is no universe, no space, matter or time and I am just a concious entity alone, but capable of imagining all those things and all that exists around me and able to imagine the physical and emotional sensations they might possess and/or express and all of you are just constructs of my conscience?

I look forward to hearing back from myself shortly.

Je pense, donc je suis

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:


Charolotte Caxton wrote:


Porky Gorky wrote:

LOL thanks Tatiana :matte-motes-wink:

I think nearly every universe origin theory falls apart if you look at it too hard. If you believe in intelligent design or a God or deity then you need to answer the question how did they come into existence in order to create the universe in the first place as Charlotte said. If you believe that the universe was not designed on purpose but merely happened then that needs to be explained too as things don't just appear from nowhere without a source according to what we know about the laws of physics. And the likelihood is we will never know as a species.

I think logic, reason, and history will show us that just because we cannot explain it as of yet, only means that is because of us not having discovered a way to explain it yet. If the universe and reality were designed with purpose, there has to be a designer of that designer ad nauseum. It makes much more sense to accept that there was no design and that the reason we see such patterns and amazing things that work so well is because all the crap that didn't work didn't survive for us to examine it. Well, actually, several things have survived but are being phased out.  

you should watch that show that i posted the link to..

it will show that in chaos or what we think is chaos is just a finer more detailed pattern of the same thing  that we are looking at..and that if we even pan out..the pattern will stay consistent..

right now they are using fractal geometry to measure how much carbon dioxide a forest can take in and oxygen can come out..

how they did this was they had cut down a tree..it was already dying..

Aaanyways

they took measurements all over the tree..

from the trunk to the very first branching point..they found a pattern that was consistent throughout the whole tree..then they took a sample of carbon dioxide from a leaf..to see how much carbon dioxide was in the leaf..

they found it was consistent in all the leaves..

now the really cool part is this..they went to different areas of the forest measuring bigger tree's still in the ground and smaller trees and even sprouts..and when they put those patterns from all over the forest into a graph and then took the pattern and measurements from the tree they cut down..the pattern of the forest and the tree were the same..

so now they know that all they have to do is take a sample of one tree from any forest  and then know the size of the forest and take a carbon dioxide sample from a leaf from the tree..and they can figure out how much carbon dioxide a forest will take in and how much oxygen can come out..and also how much of an impact it will have in helping global climates..

basically it shows that there really is no chaos in nature..only finer detailed patterns in nature that we were looking right at but never really did see until fractal geometry showed us..

if we ever find a way to get to the edge of the universe..it will probably be found using fractal geometry..

it's awesomeness in a bottle that is in a bottle inside a bottle and so on hehehehe

 

 

 

All I got out of that was that a pattern that works well is what was being used because all the other random patterns didn't work.

out of the show or what i mentioned? i wasn't sayng to watch it to prove anything one way or the other..i was basically saying it because i thought people would like it..

i think it's amazing stuff and ground breaking..to me anyways..

Aaannyways

it was about a better math that revealed there is a pattern where other math may not show it..the only random thing going on is who is using what math..

i would love to test it out with some things that people say are random just because i think it would be cool to see if we could find a consistent pattern anywhere..

i think it would be fun to try =)

myself i am not into religion or thinking someone pushed a button and the universe was born..

i do believe that nature is bigger than we think it is is all..and i enjoy that there may be ways that we can get a better idea about it..

i'm native american and i do not pray to all the spirits.. i like to think i am pretty grounded and  i enjoy  learning new things..

fractal geometry is sort of young discovery wise.. but throwing out amazing discoveries..

there being a meaning to everything doesn't have to be from a god..it could be that nature is alive we haven't even started to see how alive it actually is on our own planet..

fractal geometry lets us see just how much more things are related on a much bigger and smaller scale..not just  bits and pieces at a time..but show those bits and pieces are consistant even through out..pan back and you see a bigger version of the smaller piece you were looking at..look closer and you see smaller versions looking the same as the one in the middle..and it just keeps on going in either direction..

i just think it's cool stuff.. i love science and i believe in nature..because i think nature is freaking awesome hehehehehe

if something made the universe..in my eyes it would be nature itself..because i think it's bigger than we could every imagine..not some god throwing down lightning bolts or whatever they do these days hehehehe

i didn't come to this thread to take serious the religion and science debate..i just came to talk about cool stuffs to give some intermission to those that may want to go at each other..

i'm here for the cool LOL

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

I don't see how the only conclusion can be that something must have created it. It can be one conclusion, but not the only one.

Consider nothing at all - no 'anywhere' and no 'when' - no space, no matter, and no time for anything to exist in - absolute nothingness. Then something exists. How come? How did something come into existance? I can see no other conclusion but that existance itself, as we understand it (space, time, matter), was created by something/one.

I can see that there might be, or have been, some other form of existance that we don't know about, that brought about the universe we do know about, but, to us, existance itself (the universe) is matter, space for the matter to be in, and time for the matter and space to exist in. That's the universe, which is all we know about, and that *had* to come about by something happening; i.e. something or some entity doing something that brought it about when there was absolutely no existance/universe at all. Something had to have happened, and something (or someone), in some form of existance, had to have caused it.

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Porky Gorky wrote:

Oh I forgot to ridicule that TV show Ancient Aliens, has anyone seen that? Those guys are desperately clutching at straws more and more in every episode. In their eyes Humans have achieved nothing and Aliens are pretty much responsible for every achievement Mankind has made in history, And it has become more ludicrous the longer the show stays on the air as they have to invent more content. Good entertainment but utter nonsense IMO.

My PVR (TiVo) records that series for me as Suggestions. But I totally agree that it's a totally naff series of programmes, and I delete them all without watching even a minute of them.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Porky Gorky wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that something created existance (space, matter and time) - your intelligent designer. So, to answer your question, an intelligent designer created the universe.

ALthough that is my current belief, I don't believe it 100%. Not completely convinced. We are trapped in a  bubble and until we can escape that bubble and look at it from the outside, put it into context, I don't think we'll ever be sure.

Phil, the idea that one
MUST
conclude an intelligent designer is simply dogma, isn't it? I understand the allure of that conclusion, but like Porky, I'm willing to express uncertainty over it, and accept the possibility we may never know. What I do believe is that our ability and desire to believe in creators, particularly benevolent ones with lovely hereafters, is most likely the result of natural selection. It's easier to slog through a difficult life if there's a virgin, comfy furniture and fresh fruit waiting for you in the afterlife. Singing about that while you wait helps too.

I referred to Porky's "intelligent designer" when I concluded that "something created existance". Something must have happened for the existance that we know about (space, time and matter) to have come into existance, when there was no such existance at all. I didn't offer a conclusion as to whether or not what happened was brought about by an intellient entity. But I do think that something or someone MUST have brought about the extistance of our space, time and matter.

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Sy Beck wrote:

And what if there is no universe, no space, matter or time and I am just a concious entity alone, but capable of imagining all those things and all that exists around me and able to imagine the physical and emotional sensations they might possess and/or express and all of you are just constructs of my conscience?

I look forward to hearing back from myself shortly.

Je pense, donc je suis

I think I heard this theory on the afore mentioned Morgan Freeman show. It is an interesting theory and a really neat and tidy one with no room for any unanswerable questions apart from one.

If you are just a conscious entity and all existence is a manifestation of your consciousness, then all we need to know is how you  came into existence sy?

 

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Porky Gorky wrote:


Sy Beck wrote:

And what if there is no universe, no space, matter or time and I am just a conscious entity alone, but capable of imagining all those things and all that exists around me and able to imagine the physical and emotional sensations they might possess and/or express and all of you are just constructs of my conscience?

I look forward to hearing back from myself shortly.

Je pense, donc je suis

I think I heard this theory on the afore mentioned Morgan Freeman show. It is an interesting theory and a really neat and tidy one with no room for any unanswerable questions apart from one.

If you are just a conscious entity and all existence is a manifestation of your consciousness, then all we need to know is how
you
 came into existence sy?

 

Good reply myself and one I have been ruminating upon to be smartass back at myself again.  Before I'm able to answer myself I guess I'd have to answer what is conscious thought.  It's not matter, it exerts no force by itself, it occupies no particular space, but in its operation it can be anywhere at anytime and these are just a few of its peculiarities.  Once I've nailed that bit of fog to the wall I might have a better answer for myself me.

Of course in this scenario I am God, so a touch more respect next time when you're addressing your deity otherwise I'll forget you, by which I mean me.  Things get confusing and paradoxical in this concept.

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Sy Beck wrote:

Good reply myself and one I have been ruminating upon to be smartass back at myself again.  Before I'm able to answer myself I guess I'd have to answer what is conscious thought.  It's not matter, it exerts no force by itself, it occupies no particular space, but in its operation it can be anywhere at anytime and these are just a few of its
peculiarities
.  Once I've nailed that bit of fog to the wall I might have a better answer for myself me.

Of course in this scenario I am God, so a touch more respect next time when you're addressing your deity otherwise I'll forget you, by which I mean me.  Things get confusing and paradoxical in this concept.

I LOL'ed.

But then obviously you already knew that. :matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

 

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Not the show, or rather, not specifically the show, but what you mentioned about the show, specifically, that there is no chaos in nature.

"basically it shows that there really is no chaos in nature..only finer detailed patterns in nature that we were looking right at but never really did see until fractal geometry showed us.."

My take is that while there may be a pattern in what we are able to observe now, it may very well be the result of chaos and the reason the ordered amazing patterns exist as opposed to random useless non patterns is because the patterns work and therefore are why we even exist to be able to view them.

I agree though that it is cool. There are patterns in everything, from flocks of birds, to schools of fish, our basic dna and all that other jazz. 

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Charolotte Caxton wrote:

I don't see how the only conclusion can be that something must have created it. It can be one conclusion, but not the only one.

Consider nothing at all - no 'anywhere' and no 'when' - no space, no matter, and no time for anything to exist in - absolute nothingness. Then something exists. How come? How did something come into existance? I can see no other conclusion but that existance itself, as we understand it (space, time, matter), was created by something/one.

I can see that there might be, or have been, some other form of existance that we don't know about, that brought about the universe we do know about, but, to us, existance itself (the universe) is matter, space for the matter to be in, and time for the matter and space to exist in. That's the universe, which is all we know about, and that *had* to come about by something happening; i.e. something or some entity doing something that brought it about when there was absolutely no existance/universe at all. Something had to have happened, and something (or someone), in some form of existance, had to have caused it.

In your scenario, absolute nothingness then something exists, how can the only conclusion be that someone created existence?

I agree something had to have happened by something happening, I just don't see how it had to have been brought about by a someone.

Besides, it is much more humane to not believe that a someone created what we perceive as reality, because if that were true, the creator is sadistically insane. 

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:


Charolotte Caxton wrote:

I don't see how the only conclusion can be that something must have created it. It can be one conclusion, but not the only one.

Consider nothing at all - no 'anywhere' and no 'when' - no space, no matter, and no time for anything to exist in - absolute nothingness. Then something exists. How come? How did something come into existance? I can see no other conclusion but that existance itself, as we understand it (space, time, matter), was created by something/one.

I can see that there might be, or have been, some other form of existance that we don't know about, that brought about the universe we do know about, but, to us, existance itself (the universe) is matter, space for the matter to be in, and time for the matter and space to exist in. That's the universe, which is all we know about, and that *had* to come about by something happening; i.e. something or some entity doing something that brought it about when there was absolutely no existance/universe at all. Something had to have happened, and something (or someone), in some form of existance, had to have caused it.

In your scenario, absolute nothingness then something exists, how can the only conclusion be that someone created existence?

I agree something had to have happened by something happening, I just don't see how it had to have been brought about by a someone.

Besides, it is much more humane to not believe that a someone created what we perceive as reality, because if that were true, the creator is sadistically insane. 

Wouldn't it also be possible that this creator was, in a sense, incompetent? By that I mean able to concoct a set of rules by which everything could could evolve, but unable to comprehend the complexity of the result? If we're gonna make up theories, I like that one as I could at least identify with the poor thing.

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