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How did the universe come into existence?


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Porky Gorky wrote:

Anywho....Ignoring Morgan, here is what I think.

I am currently digging the multi-verse theory, in fact I am becoming more convinced that we are living inside a black hole. I think there were multiple universes in existence before ours. In one of those universes a black hole formed and the energy released during the formation of that black hole resulted in our big bang and the subsequent inflation and expansion of our universe. In turn I think every black hole that appears in our universe creates a new universe on the other side.

That is the theory that most intrigues me at the moment.

I don’t believe in god in any of the conventional forms found in our religions. But I do believe in a form of intelligent design. I look at the complexity of things like life, DNA and the awesome abilities of atoms and can’t for a second believe that these things have just randomly happened. There is purpose in their existence and that purpose is being realised as the universes age. Whatever is behind this grand design I can only imagine, but I don’t feel any need to pray to it or worship it and hold no illusions about my position within the grand scheme of things. I believe when I die, I die. Whatever energy that is left in my brain, my soul, my intelligence, whatever you want to call it will die along with my physical body and the only way to avoid this is through the intervention of technology.

Intelligent design? Then what could have possibly created that intelligence?

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you know what else is neat and a constant?

fractals

i saw a show on those and it was really interesting..

how quasars.. i believe that's what they were listening to anyways..how they make these sounds and that if you follow the patterns in just one byte of sound..the pattern remains consistent forever just like in a fractal..

also they exist in a tree..if you look at where a tree first branches in it's trunk..that pattern will stay consistent where ever the tree branches in the trunk all the way into the branching branches all the way where the branches on the branch branch then into the leaves and into the veins of the leaves and so on..

i was like..that's wild!! lol

fractal math had a big part in why computers and a lot of the things we have are more powerful and smaller now..

 

the show i had seen was on nova..i think it was on hulu that i saw it but the nova channle on hulu...

NOVA - Fractals Hunting the Hidden Dimension

found it =)

http://www.hulu.com/watch/181084/nova-hunting-the-hidden-dimension

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LOL thanks Tatiana :matte-motes-wink:

I think nearly every universe origin theory falls apart if you look at it too hard. If you believe in intelligent design or a God or deity then you need to answer the question how did they come into existence in order to create the universe in the first place as Charlotte said. If you believe that the universe was not designed on purpose but merely happened then that needs to be explained too as things don't just appear from nowhere without a source according to what we know about the laws of physics. And the likelihood is we will never know as a species.

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Porky Gorky wrote:

LOL thanks Tatiana :matte-motes-wink:

I think nearly every universe origin theory falls apart if you look at it too hard. If you believe in intelligent design or a God or deity then you need to answer the question how did they come into existence in order to create the universe in the first place as Charlotte said. If you believe that the universe was not designed on purpose but merely happened then that needs to be explained too as things don't just appear from nowhere without a source according to what we know about the laws of physics. And the likelihood is we will never know as a species.

I think logic, reason, and history will show us that just because we cannot explain it as of yet, only means that is because of us not having discovered a way to explain it yet. If the universe and reality were designed with purpose, there has to be a designer of that designer ad nauseum. It makes much more sense to accept that there was no design and that the reason we see such patterns and amazing things that work so well is because all the crap that didn't work didn't survive for us to examine it. Well, actually, several things have survived but are being phased out.  

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Porky Gorky wrote:

Whatever energy that is left in my brain, my soul, my intelligence, whatever you want to call it will die along with my physical body and the only way to avoid this is through the intervention of technology.

 

Energy does not "die," it merely changes form.  To quote, "The total energy contained in an object is identified with its mass, and energy (like mass), cannot be created or destroyed."  Your energy in some form will continue to be part of our universe. 

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:


Porky Gorky wrote:

LOL thanks Tatiana :matte-motes-wink:

I think nearly every universe origin theory falls apart if you look at it too hard. If you believe in intelligent design or a God or deity then you need to answer the question how did they come into existence in order to create the universe in the first place as Charlotte said. If you believe that the universe was not designed on purpose but merely happened then that needs to be explained too as things don't just appear from nowhere without a source according to what we know about the laws of physics. And the likelihood is we will never know as a species.

I think logic, reason, and history will show us that just because we cannot explain it as of yet, only means that is because of us not having discovered a way to explain it yet. If the universe and reality were designed with purpose, there has to be a designer of that designer ad nauseum. It makes much more sense to accept that there was no design and that the reason we see such patterns and amazing things that work so well is because all the crap that didn't work didn't survive for us to examine it. Well, actually, several things have survived but are being phased out.  

Agreed, given an infinite number of possibilities (which the multiverse theory posits) it's not hard to imagine that complete randomness could create what appears to be exquisite planning. I think it is, and may always be, premature to say that, if we can't explain it, it must be a grander plan. For me, it's sufficient to say "we can't explain it" and get back to work.

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Just had to chime in here on a couple of things.....

 

Someone mentioned 'infinity'.....but failed to specifiy which kind of infinity, ordinal or cardinal.....

 

A few mentioned singularities.  However, singularities are simply a mathematical expression of Einstein's equations (which are the only reason black holes are theorized to exist.  While we have astronomical evidence of super-dense gravitational objects, that does not confirm the existence of black holes.  But, even assuming that black holes DO exist, the mathematics, as in so many cases, are descriptions of projected observations.....the reality is that there are always other factors, complexities, and rules in play that turn our simple equations into much MUCH more complex ones.

In other words, a 'singularity' is an impossible object.  By definition, it would possess zero volume, yet a positive mass, and infinite density.  If you even work out the issues mathematically (as best as our real ordered field of numbers allows) you quickly find that such an object is paradoxical at the very least.  Which, scientifically speaking, means it almost certainly has other undetermined factors or complexities in play, which prevent such paradoxical states.  Mass may be being shunted into a subspace, a quantum disjunction, or any number of other possibilities (all completely theoretical, due to our inability to test, and thus, not truly scientific.)  If any of these are the case, then the object does NOT have a zero volume, but it's presentation in 3 dimensional space might be (which is why Einstein's theories may not be showing it, as they are strictly based in 2 dimensional analysis (specifically, field theory.)

 

Now, as for the metaphysical questions.....intelligent design?  A god/gods?  Untestable.  And the argument about 'then what created them?' falls apart due to insufficient understanding of n-dimensional time, and the possibility of loops that could circumnavigate the entirey of n-dimensional time (thus being constant throughout time, and having no end or beginning.)  N-Dimensional time conveniently avoids the problems of paradox as well as quickly providing useful concepts such as conservation of time and dimensions (i.e., any timestreams/dimensions which are/become identical at any given point will collapse back into a single timestream/dimension).  Assuming time is linear, unidirectional and finite is a simplification, which has been shown to have considerable numbers of exceptions.

 

(ETA)  Also, someone mentioned that energy is neither created nor destroyed.  Not entirely true.  It depends on the closed/open nature of whatever 'system' you are observing (these are the tenents of Thermodynamics), and based on quantum dynamics, energy is not only created AND destroyed, but it frequently happens and unhappens constantly at a very high rate of speed......

 

Now that that's out of my system.....I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe with his noodly appendages.    Just as valid and as testable/unprovable as ANY other creation belief......

 

 

 

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:


Porky Gorky wrote:

LOL thanks Tatiana :matte-motes-wink:

I think nearly every universe origin theory falls apart if you look at it too hard. If you believe in intelligent design or a God or deity then you need to answer the question how did they come into existence in order to create the universe in the first place as Charlotte said. If you believe that the universe was not designed on purpose but merely happened then that needs to be explained too as things don't just appear from nowhere without a source according to what we know about the laws of physics. And the likelihood is we will never know as a species.

I think logic, reason, and history will show us that just because we cannot explain it as of yet, only means that is because of us not having discovered a way to explain it yet. If the universe and reality were designed with purpose, there has to be a designer of that designer ad nauseum. It makes much more sense to accept that there was no design and that the reason we see such patterns and amazing things that work so well is because all the crap that didn't work didn't survive for us to examine it. Well, actually, several things have survived but are being phased out.  

you should watch that show that i posted the link to..

it will show that in chaos or what we think is chaos is just a finer more detailed pattern of the same thing  that we are looking at..and that if we even pan out..the pattern will stay consistent..

right now they are using fractal geometry to measure how much carbon dioxide a forest can take in and oxygen can come out..

how they did this was they had cut down a tree..it was already dying..

Aaanyways

they took measurements all over the tree..

from the trunk to the very first branching point..they found a pattern that was consistent throughout the whole tree..then they took a sample of carbon dioxide from a leaf..to see how much carbon dioxide was in the leaf..

they found it was consistent in all the leaves..

now the really cool part is this..they went to different areas of the forest measuring bigger tree's still in the ground and smaller trees and even sprouts..and when they put those patterns from all over the forest into a graph and then took the pattern and measurements from the tree they cut down..the pattern of the forest and the tree were the same..

so now they know that all they have to do is take a sample of one tree from any forest  and then know the size of the forest and take a carbon dioxide sample from a leaf from the tree..and they can figure out how much carbon dioxide a forest will take in and how much oxygen can come out..and also how much of an impact it will have in helping global climates..

basically it shows that there really is no chaos in nature..only finer detailed patterns in nature that we were looking right at but never really did see until fractal geometry showed us..

if we ever find a way to get to the edge of the universe..it will probably be found using fractal geometry..

it's awesomeness in a bottle that is in a bottle inside a bottle and so on hehehehe

 

 

 

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Infinite possibilities would encompass a great deal more than people seem to be able to comprehend.  It would indicate there could be multiple realities (and by definition, an infinite amount.)

 

This gets into the whole question of ordinal and cardinal infinities....but I won't get into that here.  Check out the book "Infinity and the Mind" by Rudy Rucker, if you get the chance.  It'll explain it better and more completely.....

 

But, differing realities (of infinite variation) would have different physical laws, rules, and the very nature of them could be wildly contrrary to our own accepted reality.  And, since math is based on logic and observation (much like science), the very numbers which would work in one universe would not work in another.  And thus all our fancy fractals, and or 'order or chaos' concepts break apart.

 

As an example, imagine a universe almost exactly like ours, but with only one difference.  Entropy is reversed.  Things tend to become more ordered naturally in this universe.  Can you see just how significant a small change in one rule can violently destroy all the others?  Could life (as we understand it) even exist in such a universe?  If the variation is truly infinite, there would exist such a universe.  There would also exist all possible timelines (n-dimensional time, once again) for every single one of these universes.  So all possible outcomes for all possible 'decisions/choices' do, will, and have occured.

 

So when we talk about multiverse theory, realize that many such universes might exist.....some would be completely static, bereft of anything other than existence......some would be teeming with things and events we cannot even imagine or predict.  A infintesimal number of them might be comprehensible to us as 'universes' to us.

 

Now, as for the fractal mathematics.....remember, all mathematical equations are based off of observations in the real world.  Of course, we see fractal patterns throughout nature, that's where we derived the equations from!  But, as with most of our equations, they only show the part of the picture we can detect SO FAR.  So chaos theory equations, non-repeating decimals, irrational numbers, and much more begin to come into play too.  Take a circle, measure the circumfrance and divide that by the diameter......such a simple ratio, but we all know it has a non-repeating decimal value.....so what's the last digit?  Maybe one day we WILL find the pattern, but until then, we don't know.  Same with the concept of using fractals as a model for too many things.....yes, if you look long enough, you'll find any pattern you are looking for SOMEWHERE in where you are looking.  But that's correlation, not causation.....

 

 

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Ceka Cianci wrote:


Charolotte Caxton wrote:


Porky Gorky wrote:

LOL thanks Tatiana :matte-motes-wink:

I think nearly every universe origin theory falls apart if you look at it too hard. If you believe in intelligent design or a God or deity then you need to answer the question how did they come into existence in order to create the universe in the first place as Charlotte said. If you believe that the universe was not designed on purpose but merely happened then that needs to be explained too as things don't just appear from nowhere without a source according to what we know about the laws of physics. And the likelihood is we will never know as a species.

I think logic, reason, and history will show us that just because we cannot explain it as of yet, only means that is because of us not having discovered a way to explain it yet. If the universe and reality were designed with purpose, there has to be a designer of that designer ad nauseum. It makes much more sense to accept that there was no design and that the reason we see such patterns and amazing things that work so well is because all the crap that didn't work didn't survive for us to examine it. Well, actually, several things have survived but are being phased out.  

you should watch that show that i posted the link to..

it will show that in chaos or what we think is chaos is just a finer more detailed pattern of the same thing  that we are looking at..and that if we even pan out..the pattern will stay consistent..

right now they are using fractal geometry to measure how much carbon dioxide a forest can take in and oxygen can come out..

how they did this was they had cut down a tree..it was already dying..

Aaanyways

they took measurements all over the tree..

from the trunk to the very first branching point..they found a pattern that was consistent throughout the whole tree..then they took a sample of carbon dioxide from a leaf..to see how much carbon dioxide was in the leaf..

they found it was consistent in all the leaves..

now the really cool part is this..they went to different areas of the forest measuring bigger tree's still in the ground and smaller trees and even sprouts..and when they put those patterns from all over the forest into a graph and then took the pattern and measurements from the tree they cut down..the pattern of the forest and the tree were the same..

so now they know that all they have to do is take a sample of one tree from any forest  and then know the size of the forest and take a carbon dioxide sample from a leaf from the tree..and they can figure out how much carbon dioxide a forest will take in and how much oxygen can come out..and also how much of an impact it will have in helping global climates..

basically it shows that there really is no chaos in nature..only finer detailed patterns in nature that we were looking right at but never really did see until fractal geometry showed us..

if we ever find a way to get to the edge of the universe..it will probably be found using fractal geometry..

it's awesomeness in a bottle that is in a bottle inside a bottle and so on hehehehe

 

 

 

All I got out of that was that a pattern that works well is what was being used because all the other random patterns didn't work.

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Seems people really need a god, they want to feel that someone is watching and caring for them, that gives them some freedom, I don't think humans as they are should know the truth of the universe, be like telling them a parent has died, most of you swing that way, big bang is another road to god, as black holes are, so it seems even when given the ability to work it out you will MAKE it go back to what you want to believe to make you feel comfortable.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

... given an infinite number of possibilities (which the multiverse theory posits) it's not hard to imagine that complete randomness could create what appears to be exquisite planning. ...

this is actual a good thought. from it we can postulate that only things that are in themselves self-ordering survive andt things that are not, do not. survive in the sense that they can be measured by other self-ordering things

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16 wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

... given an infinite number of possibilities (which the multiverse theory posits) it's not hard to imagine that complete randomness could create what appears to be exquisite planning. ...

this is actual a good thought. from it we can postulate that only things that are in themselves self-ordering survive andt things that are not, do not. survive in the sense that they can be measured by other self-ordering things

Exactly.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Helium Loon wrote:

A lot of stuff!! 

I agree!

I like to wonder whether there might be a universe in which the physical laws provide for the provabiility, within that universe, of a creator of that universe.

;-)

Haha, you and your shenanigans...

deep

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i believe in God, and you call it intelligent design.....so what? you may not think you pray, but you talk to it anyway. so there ya go.....you think you all by yourself, but you not am i?............there is just way too much going on here for it to be an accident, coincedence, or anyting ese. you can believe aliens came and spat on our dirt and up we sprang, and it that is the caes, where are they now?...the only "ufo's" are man made experiemntal craft.anyway, you can belive what you wish (goes for everybody) and if its wrong you have to go to hell without a fuss....coz you were warned....

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Haha, which god are we supposed to believe in to not go to hell? The christian one, or the muslim one, or the catholic, or protestant, or the jewish god, or the native american spirits or the etc etc? Which one is the right one?

Let me guess, the one you believe in.

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Porky Gorky wrote:

I am currently digging the multi-verse theory, in fact I am becoming more convinced that we are living inside a black hole. I think there were multiple universes in existence before ours. In one of those universes a black hole formed and the energy released during the formation of that black hole resulted in our big bang and the subsequent inflation and expansion of our universe. In turn I think every black hole that appears in our universe creates a new universe on the other side.

That is the theory that most intrigues me at the moment.

Multi-universes is fine with me - as long as you don't mean the "many worlds" theory, which is plain stupid, even though some scientists give it some credence. However, that doesn't even begin to answer your own original question, which is "How did the universe come into existence?"

 


I don’t believe in god in any of the conventional forms found in our religions. But I do believe in a form of intelligent design.

That's fair enough. Something or someone with the intelligence to design the universe is the being/god that/who created it.

 

But your question is, how did the universe come into existance, and I've asked myself the same thing quite recently - how did the existance of everything actually come to exist? - or 'how come? - was my question. There are two main theories - 1) the 'Big Bang', and 2) it was always there. But neither of those addresses the question. The Big Bang may well answer what happened at the time it all came to exist (space, matter and time), but it doesn't answer the question 'how come it happened?'. The 'always there' idea doesn't answer it either. How come it was always there? Where did it come from?

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that something created existance (space, matter and time) - your intelligent designer. So, to answer your question, an intelligent designer created the universe.

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