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REALLY Sick of discrimination against child avatars


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Efurou wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:

You are a lame troll. Get some better topic. Ranting about child avatars is so 2009. Can't you come up with something entertaining? Your false arguments are boring. Come on, you can do better.

Why would anyone be bothered about someone discussing something on a discussion forum? What does it matter who old the thread is? If the people complaining about the age of the thread have nothing to add to the topic - they can just not answer, no?

I find child avatars annoying also. And no - it does not violate anyone's human rights to ban child avatar's on a sim. Sim owners have the right to invite or ban whoever they want for any reason they want. They pay, they make their own rules. Not everyone is allowed in my rl house - it is my decision who visits me and who not - does not mean I violate anyone's rights.

Yay...digging up an old thread and then start to spread false arguments and hate, absolutly great start for a discussion!

Thats troll behavior, searching for a "hot" topic that attracts haters and pushes up the emotions and then replying to that topic with as much provocation as possible. Searching for the ToS...sure...tell that my gandma...That was clearly not the intention. Searching for drama, thats it.

And that you jump in to aid a troll doesn't supprise me. Your previous posts in this forum told me enough. But hey, you could help her...you have enough topics to offer she can continue to write about. Incest for example! Great topic to practice calling names. Or maybe a step further....something creative...yes...people exposing their breasts online, people being fat....endless options to chose from. A basic topic to start with would be BDSM, naturally. Or a thread about how weird Gor roleplay is, thats close to be classic.

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I don't see how your payment arrangement has anything to do with any perceived rights you feel you have in SL. The people you mentioned are paying for the land you want to use. How does your membershi

Efurou sure has its own reasons to dislike child avatars, many people dont like them either and that is not a cirme, and yes, its very assumed that sexuality is the main reason they are disliked when there can be a gamma of reasons why people dont like them.

one thing we must avoid tho, is to attack someone because we dont like how that person decide that their second life would be, you have the power to control the environment of what you would like your second life experience to be in your land, outside of it, we all deserve to be safe, and our beliefs respected, as long as we are not hurting anyone else.

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Syo Emerald wrote:
And that you jump in to aid a troll doesn't supprise me. Your previous posts in this forum told me enough. But hey, you could help her...you have enough topics to offer she can continue to write about. Incest for example! Great topic to practice calling names. Or maybe a step further....something creative...yes...people exposing their breasts online, people being fat....endless options to chose from. A basic topic to start with would be BDSM, naturally. Or a thread about how weird Gor roleplay is, thats close to be classic.


 

I have no clue if that person is a troll or wants to cause drama. I know for sure that none of it has to do with how old a topic is. If people do not want to feed the troll/drama - they can simply not answer and just ignore the re-opened thread.

All the other stuff you are going on about here - I have no clue what that is all about..... You have issues with people who like a bit bdsm here and there in sl?

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

one thing we must avoid tho, is to attack someone because we dont like how that person decide that their second life would be, you have the power to control the environment of what you would like your second life experience to be in your land, outside of it, we all deserve to be safe, and our beliefs respected, as long as we are not hurting anyone else.

I agree with that.  No one should be attacked because they want to play a certain character. What I do not understand is players who demand they can play on privately owned sims when the characters they play are not wanted there - and they feel like their rights are violated somehow. If they are on sims where their avatar is allowed - they should be left alone!

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Efurou wrote:


Syo Emerald wrote:
And that you jump in to aid a troll doesn't supprise me. Your previous posts in this forum told me enough. But hey, you could help her...you have enough topics to offer she can continue to write about. Incest for example! Great topic to practice calling names. Or maybe a step further....something creative...yes...people exposing their breasts online, people being fat....endless options to chose from. A basic topic to start with would be BDSM, naturally. Or a thread about how weird Gor roleplay is, thats close to be classic.


 

I have no clue if that person is a troll or wants to cause drama. I know for sure that none of it has to do with how old a topic is. If people do not want to feed the troll/drama - they can simply not answer and just ignore the re-opened thread.

All the other stuff you are going on about here - I have no clue what that is all about..... You have issues with people who like a bit bdsm here and there in sl?

I don't have an issue with that. I simply showed you that you could also be an easy target for hate. Not liking child avatars is one thing, but spreading false informations and hate isn't the way to deal with them. I'm just trying to make you think about who it could feel to be on the other side of the fence.

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Vere Messerchmitt wrote:


Abigail Merlin wrote:

holly necropost batman..

 

Did you dig this up just to troll?

No.  You?

And does doing a google search for SL policy on this sort of thing and turning this up at the top of the search incidentally constitute some form of "digging" I was previously unaware of?

what information are you looking for?

are you looking for the TOS sections or the knowledgebase sections?

 

what was your google search for and maybe we can get past all this other stuff going on and get you actually what you were looking for in the first place? =)

i know of a couple of things in the knowledge base and can get you the tos sections if that is what you were looking for?

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Syo Emerald wrote:


I don't have an issue with that. I simply showed you that you could also be an easy target for hate. Not liking child avatars is one thing, but spreading false informations and hate isn't the way to deal with them. I'm just trying to make you think about who it could feel to be on the other side of the fence.

If people want to go on and on about the stuff you mentioned - if they like to show their ignorance like that - they can be my guest  :-)

Not sure where someone spread hatred about child avatars.

 

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Vere Messerchmitt wrote:

 

Name me the top five insults you might potentially level against a fully-grown adult when they are not acting particularly... normal.  I'm betting one of the top five is "you're acting like a child".

 

 

 

 

I guess He had it all wrong:

"He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

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  • 4 months later...

The problem with child avatars, from a psychological perspective, is that the majority of people who have survived abusive or "lost" childhoods have no desire to ever somehow "recreate" or "recapture" a childhood. In Real Life (RL) I work every day with survivors of sexual, psychological, verbal and physical abuse in childhood and I have yet to meet a single one who feels the need to play a child in RL--or for those that use virtual worlds, adopt a child persona. I _have_ however, met people who engage in RL and VRE child roleplay who are fixated on infantile activities, these are usually people who have been sexually abused as children, and they "relive the trauma" by spending hours as a child online or in certain adult RL venues.

Because my sims support trauma survivors of all kinds (combat, abuse, rape, hostage, natural/manmade disasters, and so on), from a wide range of cultures, nationalities and ethnic identities (these are real people using SL as a social support tool in recovery--they do not "roleplay" or "game"), I have had to ban child avatars from the membership areas, because RL victims of childhood abuse get so upset when they see a child avatar that they cannot focus on the meetings or work we do inworld.

I really am puzzled, as a PTSD and psychological trauma expert with thirty years in the field, why any adult would play a child -- especially when they have been traumatized as children. As I said, after working with hundreds of trauma survivors, I have yet to meet a single one who wants to "relive" or "recreate" a lost or traumatized childhood. In fact, their avoidance even repulsion of a child role (dependent, powerless, underdeveloped, engaged in immature play and action) extends to many not ever having children, and avoiding interaction with children in RL--because the hurt is so deep that it is unbearable. Most PTSD survivors work to empower themselves, to never be powerless or dependent like the role of a child is.

I have some ideas as to why people want to play children, but they are not included in Linden Labs policy/thoughts about child avatars ( http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Child_Avatar ).

One should note the degree of righteous indignation and rage that is encountered when one bans a child avatar or refuses to work with adults driving child avatars...rather than simply say to themselves, "well okay, I understand and have empathy for the members here that are triggered or made anxious by child avatars played by adults, so I'll go somewhere else on the grid, thank you any way," the common response from adults driving child avatars is extreme: Cursing, outrage, attempts to make the refusing resident feel guilty or unjust....based on my long experiences in psychology, the reaction is a bit more extreme than the situation warrants. I have been asked to leave sims that require roleplay costumes (medieval, Fae, historical) and I was cool with it--returning later in the right outfit. I also do not appear at educational events in clubwear. I don't get extremely enraged, each resident is entitled to set the standards for their sim, parcel, event, or RP game.

So...Like I said, my experience in RL of working with law enforcement in forensic psychology capacity, years spent working with crime victims sex crime victims, and their perpetrators, pedophiles, perverts, sexual sadists...well...I would assert that there is a bit more to the child avatar being played by an adult behind the PC than mere "recapturing the carefree days of youth."

I wil say firmly, that an adult spending hours and hours identifying as a child in a child avatar is psychologically unhealthy.

Now that I have made that statement, I look forward to avalanche of abuse, drama, and shrill denials and attacks by those adults playing children online.

:-(

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  • 4 months later...

First: sorry for my bad English, I'm not an English language native, second: I'm not an anthropologist, but I will try to explain to you why people act like this...

The human society is a very complex system that contains a lot of bizarre nuances depending on many factors like age, ethnicity, country of born, etc., but, between all of these nuances, some of them are highlighted, that are power, fame/popularity, money and sex/pleasure:

Power is the skill or ability you have (or acquire) to control (or enslave) other people and it's the main reason for the absolute majority of the human beings to live, when you have money, popularity or pleasure (beauty, etc.) you can reach this goal, at least partially.

In the old days, people used to acquire power through force (strength, wars, assaults etc.), today they still use force, but new tactics were developed, and the discrimination is one of them, people feel very powerful when can control you for some particular reason they can choose or find on you, like skin color or ethnicity, age, appearance, etc., so, that is my point: If a person or people in general can find anything about you that they can use against you to control or humiliate you, they will do it! As simple as that!

Why people have children? Because it's good to make them? Because they are cute? Instinct of reproduction? These answers are partial, at same time the act to make them is pleasant and continues the species, also the people reach one of the main reasons/goals for a human being to live, they acquire power (control) over someone, they can control a fully manageable being for at least 18 years (depending on the arbitrary laws of the country)! This is awesome, amazing, people can't wait for this! Children are seen by people as amazing speaking cute pets, people can do almost everything to the children in terms of control and the children are forced to obey, including sometimes a lot of unnecessary excesses, children are including forced by arbitrary state laws that support this amazing behavior, then people can forbid them to do what they want, send them wherever they want, study what they want, forcing them to eat and drink whatever they want, control who they have friendship and in some places control when and with whom they relate and marry, isn't this just wonderful? For many it is the goal of life!

The humanity is slavocrat/enslaver from the earliest times, and do everything for the controlled people feel "free" and do not realize that they are actually slaves, this include from time to time, change the words by others, eg., slave > vassal > servant > employee, and they change rewards too, like changing food reward for money to buy food, maybe in the future they create another word, like "affiliate", "conjoint", etc., but ordinary people will never pass this: SLAVES! That's the reason why ordinary people feel thirsty for control someone like black people, Indians, children, 3rd world, etc... Even the most poor and homeless person in the world can feel powerful by making a child for its own!

So, among of this whole (non)sense, the SL, an entire virtual world is created, a world where people can at lest play they are powerful, rich, own land, own people, have "employees", then we (yes, I'm an child av too, or sometimes furry) chose to turn into TOTALLY FREE children! At least in theory, they can not treat us like their own speaking pets, but we are messing with one of the main icons of human power control, FOR SURE they will try to discriminate/control you (us)! If we choose to be free children, this terrifies people, even as we remember them the rot of human nature, the most of people simply can not deal with this, in the same way that they can not deal with the death, they need a religion or belief telling them that there are "something" beyond death, and they need to believe that they have power over and control at least their children, then we are taking away from them their feeling of ownership, that is the point, the true reason for child av discrimination! Any other reason a person can tell you about this discrimination, is an excuse, an evasive or fallacy to the true nature behind it... People simply need to control, or at least think they control their lives, their children, their land, their "employees", etc.

If you want to better understand this discrimination, watch an episode of Star Trek called "Rascals", It is the 133rd episode of "Star Trek: The Next Generation", and it is the seventh episode of its sixth season. This episode, for itself, explains a lot this kind of discrimination, in fact, Captain Picard is simply taken away from their duties (and totally agree and contributes to this) for no other reason that his body was temporarily turned into a child avatar, so, have fun :)

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  • 1 month later...

So... I've been reading all these comments and such... And I'm not really going to get into the debate. It's honestly just a bias argument of personal preferences and opinions. Along with your own standards to what you see as "morally right". So there is no right answer really. But, I will say MY opinion on a few things...

 

As far as I'm concerned, personally, I assume everyone is a 50yo man that weighs 400 pounds and can only reach his laptop and tv remote. So that keeps me mentally safe. Child avies are fine in my book. But I AGREE with a few comments that were made. Such as, if you're playing a 6-9yo little girl, why are you (in general) dressing like a 19yo skank looking for a sugar daddy? That is, if you're claiming the "I'm just a child" aspect. Secondly, not ALL child avies talk like babies. It annoys the heck out of me too. I usually respond with, "I'm sorry, I don't speak monkey". Then walk away. But the majority of the kid avies I know and hang around, mind you this is in public places, do not speak like that. They are just adults with child avies, in the most literal sense. They talk like they're RL age and they do regular SL things, like sit around and talk, they just appear as a kid. Those same people change their size at least a few times a day, knowing the grief they receive as a child form. So I see both sides. Why stay a child if you know you're going somewhere new to you or you're unsure of? It's easy to switch to an adult outfit, check it out, see if it's ok, then switch back if you want. But I'm not hearing that from the OP. I'm honestly hearing just someone whining.

 

It's true, sim owners make their own rules. You don't like it? Get over it or leave. Simple as that. I've know sim owners to ban people for wearing the color purple. So... Get over it. You don't need a reason and they don't have to give one.

 

Last... I must say I'm rather new. So the "history of SL" isn't part of my knowledge base. Not do I really care about it. I know I'm not doing anything against TOS, so I have nothing to fear. I can see why some may tho. But ok... I read that "Wonderland" scandal that was mentioned. And... Well... How do I put this... I know about 3-7 beaches/clubs/hangouts that are exactly the same as such described "Wonderland". So... How is this even relevant. Sure, 2006... 8 years ago. I have no idea why this was even mentioned. You can literally find the same thing... Anywhere. Go to search, places, look for "kids", "playground", or any other kid-related word. And you'll pull up a nice long list of wonderlands. How do you know? Simple. Their greeter will say something along the lines of, "this is not a pick up spot, just a beach hangout", and the managers (and or greeter also) will remind folks to "keep conversations in IM, or it's considered 'griefing'". Basically, forcing you to sit in silence, IMing people if you want to talk, receiving IM's, etc. And of course management will tell you to "let them know if you get any unwanted messages of the adult kind". Keyword? "Unwanted". So if it's wanted, go for it? Lol. And the sad part is, they welcome the people that grief their sims. With open arms even. And anyone (guests) who stands up for the "not a pick up spot" rule, and also no age play rule, get banned. Why? Simple really. People spreading "rumors" and talking about "what the sim really is" in local chat, just gives them free promotion lol. No lie, I was a kid avi, and I switched really quick. It just wasn't for me. I don't like getting IM'd by people called "Grandpa", and being asked if I'd like to see their house. No, sir, I don't. But I can assure you, "Wonderland" (as the story described it) is an utter JOKE compared to "beaches" and "clubs" I've came across as a child avi. Some are nude even, WITH the allowance of scripted genitals, which I totally thought was a big TOS no no. But every time I spoke up, I was told is completely fine. So, I just never go back. It's not something I want to see.

 

All in all, I truly don't see how any child avi can be naive to the fact of what 90% of all child-related activities in SL are. It's a fact. Not a myth. Not a discrimination of your look. It is a safety precaution for the sim owner. Sad to say, but 90% of the child avies I've met, are only child avies for that sexual age-play. Which again, is why I grew fast. Yes, I know some in legitimate family RP and some that are just playing an annoying kid. But I can't ignore what I know and have came across. Did you know that 70% of ALL "family" related RP DO involve incest of some sort? True also. The day I stopped using my kid form was the day I was propositioned by an innocent looking, and "acting", little "9yo" girl, who began to explain how her family is all about "free love and sharing each other". Then she began to ask if I would like to join her, her mom, her dad, her uncle, her older and younger brother, and a "neighbor boy", at their family house for a "love party, where everyone loves everyone". Now, if that wouldn't make YOU think twice about being a kid avi, just knowing the baggage and stereotypes and thoughts from others that come with it... Then I have to think about why you're choosing to be a kid avi. I agree with a previous poster that said, "they need to explain to me why they're a kid avi, then I may trust them". And I know one particular beach that is well aware of what takes place and it's reputation... And they rent out skyboxes to people looking for a "quick relax time". They think people can't cam around and look? I don't know. But I've spoken up before about it and NOTHING HAPPENS. Nothing at all. These places are being protected, it seems like. So, get over it, don't go there, hope no one gets hurt. That's all you can do. But like many have said before, if you want to play "god", then rent a homestead or sim. I do. And it's great. Even if it's just for your own private group for friends. Still nice to make the rules. Then... You can crack that whip too :)

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emmaleeheart wrote:

Child avies are fine in my book. But I AGREE with a few comments that were made. Such as, if you're playing a 6-9yo little girl, why are you (in general) dressing like a 19yo skank looking for a sugar daddy?

 

All in all, I truly don't see how any child avi can be naive to the fact of what 90% of all child-related activities in SL are.

This baffles me because parts of your post talk about no problems with Child AVs and most are fine, then you say 90% are freaks... Most can't be the remaining 10% - so which side of that are you on?

 

I made one of my alts into a child AV over the weekend.

It was hard to find outfits at first, but after a moment I found some kid friendly stuff with ease - though it all makes me feel like I'm trying to be a cross between the Little Rascals and Opie of the Andy Griffith show.

I suppose if you didn't want to look like a 'rascal' or a girl from the 50s, your choices rapidly end up in 'skank' territory...

That said, its still easy to avoid. Though the only black-skin I could find was 2000L so I'm still using her adult skin with strategic alpha maps - and that means the face has a bit of makeup to it...

- And that said, the 2kL one I found wasn't the ONLY black skin, it was the only one without more makeup than a trailer park hooker / televangelist's wife...

(what gives with child AVs that have so much blush and eyeliner? I pitty the 'white girls' here, ALL of their choices looked that way and I suspect some just use male skins to avoid this).

 

ps: AKEYO has a new kid AO, if you're willing to fork out 1900L for an AO, its awesome with some animations that have me wondering if I should get some of their adult AOs for my own avatar. 1 minute long stand animations that do a whole mini-story. This is why I couldn't afford the expensive skin... :)

 

Oh and 90%... Yeah right. But I've had this argument in another thread. I just suggest you friend some people and wisen up. If not friend, you can even just follow their mysecondlife feeds for a bit. Loki who makes a LOT of the mesh in SL, and a line of boy's mesh stuff (much of which will work for girl AVs too, and his free 'start kid avatar' is a good place to begin in looking at how to do the shape dials. I more or less blending his shape with my alt's adult face, and then puffed her cheeks up a bit, softened her expression, and make the mouth more youthful with a mild smile).

Several key people in Bay City are on Child AVs, and are both the most 'PG' people I've met in SL, and the least drama-prone / easy to get along with.

- These folks are all active on the SL feeds and its easy to see what they actually do in SL. It seems to range from building stuff to organizing social events to fixing bugs.

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  • 1 month later...

Ignore ignorance, arrogance, and ego.

Some adults what to RP their childhood, perhaps having a restricted one they never got to fully explore.

Others want to RP having children, have Prim babies develop into children stages and automate them with scripting to control the avatar to behave like a child, follow, and animate independently by bot scripts. Which are impressive, and perhaps really bad scripts don't want their glory stolen by far superior systems to their scripts out of a box half baked systems.

Their are plenty of kid friendly and those who are obvious loud shouters against children avatars that are handled in responsible manners, often find themselves banned across large linked sims and wonder how they got on the lists. Karma plays out.

Those who use the "I don't want to be around kids, I deal with it in RL, yadda yadda.... shouldn't be aroudn children period. They clearly have insecurity issues. Also SL is not a Adult only world, so get over it. Work on your social issues and insecurities, then speak and try a wider social area.

There were issues on SL with child avatars being used for abuse. This is not acceptable and it is good SL has been so strict on it, and got rid of it for the most part. However because of the weakness of certain people's minds, others should not be punished.

I have seen anti children bullies names start popping up on large sim bans as well. You come off as arrogant with social issues. The often bullies simply red flag themselves and become watched.

Be responsible is the key. Children don't belong in Adult themed situations, bars, night clubs, which is prohibited (TOS doesn't cover prim children since they are inventory, but acts are prohibited). They however are not prohibted in G rated areas, or moderate areas of non adult content. Sim owners can set own rules, but negitive publicity spreads fast on SL. I have actually seen a land owner ban a land renter of a 1/2 sim for harassing people with children in her rented store. THat person was ejected from the sim, all stuff returned, and she was not entitled to a refund.

Many have created children on SL because they can not have children in RL, or have lost a rl child, such as myself who lost my daughter to Leukemia. If I choose to replicate or honor her with a fully lifelike avatar, I will do so. If people get loud, well the is a large network of consequence. When people are negative, educate the ignorance. Like in RL, they can't always have what they want and need a lesson on co-existing.

When others are negitive, spread the news. Let peopel know then put it in a list of places that are not friendly and do not visit there.

 

Some people clearly need to get out in RL situations more often rather then beign on SL that inhibits their weakness.

Some are here because they have RL social issues. Others expand on their amazing ability to socialize with others. Which are you?

 I really question's spirits credentials. SL has in fact been used by legitimate psychologists  in those terms of child loss. I can tell you of 6 personal cases where peopel do in fact want to relieve lost aspects of childhood when coping. I do however want to visit yoru sim, see what is done, and if it is done within legal terms. Diagnoses and treatment on SL wouldn't be ethical with any licensed therapist or degreed indvidual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Since the OP hasn't posted again in the thread, I suspect you wasted a lot of time writing that long response because s/he won't even see it, let alone read it.

I'm sure their heart is in the right place.  Oh wait, it's in Houston... never mind.

...Dres

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  • 1 month later...

i see it all the time,and even myself (i play a preteen-teen avi) get it at times,some people dont agree with it,just like they dont agree with same sex parents,i love my moms (yes..2) and i am invited everywhere with my family,but thats cause they know people,but i know that a lot of people get banned for having their avi's where i go,im not saying you have to know people to be in the safe zone,but you have to know people to be in the safe zone,so they can back you up and say "hey,this child will be here for the time being" And the other person has to agree on it weather they like it or not (for me atleast) because a lot of people i know have really really good connections and the friends they have are slobs and rude. so just hang in there (:

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AStormieDay wrote:

i see it all the time,and even myself (i play a preteen-teen avi) get it at times,some people dont agree with it,just like they dont agree with same sex parents,i love my moms (yes..2) and i am invited everywhere with my family,but thats cause they know people,but i know that a lot of people get banned for having their avi's where i go,im not saying you have to know people to be in the safe zone,but you have to know people to be in the safe zone,so they can back you up and say "hey,this child will be here for the time being" And the other person has to agree on it weather they like it or not (for me atleast) because a lot of people i know have really really good connections and the friends they have are slobs and rude. so just hang in there (:

The attitude of "I can be here if I want to, regardless of your feelings or the rules" are exactly why some people feel the way they do about certain avs being in certain areas. I don't give a crap what connections someone has. If a child av, furry av or any other av shouldn't be somewhere then they just shouldn't.

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  • 1 year later...

"That said, there's no reason for 'adults' to congregate socially with 'kids' in RL on their level. That's the nature of being an 'adult'. So, again - why would you expect them to here? Do you like when kids barge in on your adult conversations? Do you drag kids with you in RL every where you go? Imma guess - no."

 

This is the absolute best response I've ever heard to this question.

While, yes, much of the discrimination I and others have experienced is absolutely hateful and unnecessary, this should explain to many of those with child avatars that it's not always so.  They just don't want a  bunch of kids hanging around...they don't always want to feel like they have to censor themselves...

Thank you, Senobia,  for putting it plainly for all to understand.


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I assumed that the thread was resurrected for my benefit - to give me a warm feeling that a thread I'd contributed to was actually on the first page. I haven't even looked in the forum for a year so it was a big surprise that this thread is on the first page :)

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