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Lynna Yorcliffe

Privacy

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What people who want to track you do without a online tracker or True status indicator.

They send you a notecard, or 1 linden, or a IM to see if the server responds that you are not online. Unless they make changes - it has been in the past that if the users was faking the offline status you would NOT get a response from the server. Persons truly offline would cause the server to respond that the inventory had been saved, or the user was not online and that the message had been saved.

GROUPS - have online status or LAST SEEN dates. Finding if someone is online or when they were last online has in the past been one way people have been able to find out if someone was really online or not - and faking offline status. So unless all these things are done away with - The regulations against Third party viewers showing true online status of friends is pointless.

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Lynna Yorcliffe wrote:

What people who want to track you do without a online tracker or True status indicator.

They send you a notecard, or 1 linden, or a IM to see if the server responds that you are not online. Unless they make changes - it has been in the past that if the users was faking the offline status you would NOT get a response from the server. Persons truly offline would cause the server to respond that the inventory had been saved, or the user was not online and that the message had been saved.

GROUPS - have online status or LAST SEEN dates. Finding if someone is online or when they were last online has in the past been one way people have been able to find out if someone was really online or not - and faking offline status. So unless all these things are done away with - The regulations against Third party viewers showing true online status of friends is pointless.

So if there are all these other options people can use to see if you are online, there is really no need for a True Status indicator, is there :matte-motes-wink:

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I suspect these "other" means are going away soon(ish) as well. On the other hand, at least the "give them something" method makes it kinda obvious who's looking. Same with sending an IM btw.

The only way to see people without letting them know you're looking is in groups I believe. Which, IMO, only group admins should see anyway.

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The true online status should not be in a viewer, but to remove it from scripting is irresponsible. Due to the fact that inventory and message delivery to offline residents is totally unreliable with inventory and messages being lost regularly, taking this feature away harms the residents. Fully half the people I've polled after sending IM's and inventory automatically claim they have never received it. How the hell can I reliably deliver notifications and updates now? Answer - I won't be able to. Thanks LL, Thanks a lot. I just can't wait for more of LL's brilliant ideas.

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Sure you can. Do it like everyone else does it. Either provide a rezzable "update checker" or add a script to your objects that checks for updates every so often.

And FYI, they had to remove it from scripting, because that's how viewers implemented that "true online status". I'd expect that the other means of telling whether someone is online or not without their knowledge is going away soon too.

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This shows that you don't understand the use case. And you haven't solved the problem of unreliable message delivery. So, BZZZZZT - try again.

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what about a check for update button where the user can just update themselves..a lot of products still use this..

i always find myself checking for updates if there is an update button on the menu..

i'm no major scriptor or anything..but it's been pretty reliable with a lot of the stuff i own so far that have needed updating..

if something doesn't work right i check my updates..the button in the menu kind of works as a reminder for me..some even have reminders to check for updates..

a lot of merchants  seem to still use groups for their notices and updates as well..it used to be  that if you loved your hud or whatever it was and the group did updates through there..you joined the group..otherwise you really didn't worry about the updates..now with 42 groups there is more freedom in doing that rather than having to take the time to decide if the product was group worthy hehehe

i don't think it should fall on the merchants to keep users updated..i think the users should keep themselves updated with the merchants..

i've never really ran into any of my products  not sending my updates when i requested them..

 

 

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Linden Labs has NOT considered teh most obvious & simplest solution to this....

 

Why not simply correct the ONLINE response so that it honours the users choice of "show online status (true/false)" setting.   So if a user has elected not to show their online status, OFFLINE is returned, if they elect to show their online status then return the Actual Status.  Often the KISS principle being applied is the wisest, simplest & most efficient solution.

BENEFITS:

  • It would not break existing content. 
  • Does not require the Script Owner / Script Creator validation check. 
  • It would not be in violation of Privacy, as a user independently selects whether or not they wish their online status available.   (almost all forums software, social sites systems, group-ware system use exactly this process and is a globally accepted practise) 
  • Would reduce the Tylenol Consumption required by LL Staff to deal with the fallout & resulting breakages/issues/complaints.

CAVEAT

! - The only caveat would be vendors / updater's which check a users status prior to delivering an item.  These system owners would need to inform the end user that "if" they have their Online Status Display set not show, they would have to manually get updates or whatever arrangement is devised.  This is "inconvenient" but not an outright breakage.

Seriously, KISS the issue and get back to Keeping It Simple S*.

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Actually LL has contemplated that if I recall correctly. The response was that any such solution would put too much strain on the backend server(s) or somesuch. I fail to see how that could be any more strain, but I don't know how their backend is set up either.

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LL (Oz I believe) proffered the idea that doing a Script Creator/Owner check prior to getting agent data and so on.... so it would allow only scripts created/owned by an avatar to get the avatars online status, that would definitely add more checks on the server than to simply honour the user setting which is a single check against the field in the database.

Anyways, it's been filed into JIRA SVC-4823 and hopefully LL will take the facepalm well and just fix it with the KISS principle.

 

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There is no privacy online.  It's like standing naked in a busy shopping mall and being angry because people are looking at you.

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braylasana wrote:

There is no privacy online.  It's like standing naked in a busy shopping mall and being angry because people are looking at you.

sure there is..it's just not total privacy and it's certainly not free hehehehe

plus you kind of have to be smart about things while online as well..

a lot of things that people think are private are not private on the net anyways..and if they applied those things to rl they would see they are the same things that are out in the open there as well..

they are out there for all to see..and really  those are no big deal..

the important ones are when people should be worried..and those  if we are smart can keep out of sight..

 

 

 

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Both on and offline you should have privacy.

Both on and offline you have very limited privacy.

Both on and offline you can be aware of this and act accordingly.

Both on and offline you're leaving a trail when you do just about anything.

Both on and offline you are open to invasion of this privacy.

Both on and offline you probably don't notice the mentioned invasion.

Both on and offline that's VERY annoying! (or worse)

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My point was and is simply that the are outlawing something with the changes to the viewers that they allow through other means themselves. In addition, the viewers friend list only reports status normally of those who have opted to have you as a friend and whom you accepted. - Seems like if you're worried about a friend knowing if you are online or not, just unfriend them. Not much of a 'friend', if you don't want them knowing you are online. - Those who want to know if someone is online use other methods, the avatar tracking huds (which may no longer work if they change the code as they have indicated) but even without that - if the users groups are visible, OR if you are in the same group as someone - you could still see if they were online currently OR when they had been online last. The other way as I mentioned is send them a notecard, or a linden or a IM. If you dont get a automated server response (as it currently does when one is offline) then they are hiding.

]:<)

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yes true, but we are talking predominantly about hiding from someone you already have on your friends list which is kind of........  illogical. True online friend indicator in a viewer... is just showing you which of your friends are really online. ????

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I agree but who said people are logical or rational. If they want to really enabled privacy they need to stop showing online status in groups / last login. They also need to stop giving a server response if the person is offline or make the same response when they are online. 'Your inventory offer has been saved, the user will be notified', would be generic enough

 even if they were setting there at their viewer. Problem is that would increase server load requiring a notice for every inventory exchange, IM etc for every user every time. I cant see them doing that. The other option of removing all server responses that would indicate if someone is online or not - is going to get a lot of people upset. But then again, we have already seen that isn't necessarily a concern of management. :P

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3 weeks now since this post and when I look in my groups I can still see the login status of all group members I belong to, those online, and the last login dates. Makes one wonder if the concerns for users privacy is a valid reason for the recent changes for the TPV requirements. After all, wouldnt privacy be a concern here at 'home' first, before enforcing outside viewers to change their functions?  Just saying developers if you really care about users privacy. If that is the valid reason behind the TPV changes - then fix the problem 'in house' first and stop the ability of non friends and  group members to see your logon status. That would be a START.

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Why can this NOT be an "OPT in" thing? check here to show your TRUE online status to everyone. And have the default be to not show.  

That sounds more inline with other messaging and social network services. Yahoo IM, Google IM (for example) - you can very easily set yourself to "invisibble to all" and then selectivly choose those you wish to see you or not see you as the case may be. 

Some of us do not have stalkers and live a happy SL existence and have no need to lie to our "friends", know how to set a "busy" message to everyone or just to ppl not on our "freinds" list. 

I find this terribly inconvenient that I need to have the entire world on my friends list in order to know if I can send them an IM or if I should put what i need to say in  a Notecard. For example, we all know that IMs get capped and not everyeon wants to send therr IMs to email. So, I have a non-emergency customer service "issue" or I want to compliment someone for makign the BEST shoes EVAH!. This is not life or death, if I can see they are online.. I can send a simple TY so Much IM- if they answer- cool if not., I am not offended. If I knwo they are not online, I can choose to compose a notecard extolling the awesomeness of the shoes to them that they can save for all eternity. Or, I can decide that is simply too much work and carry on with my day- look for them later. 

I say, give the people the CHOICE to be private or not. But LL assuming that I don't want anyone to know how much time I spend in-world or perhaps make a new friend simply because they saw I was online and wanted to get to know me from my profile is assinine.  

To all of the peopel that said. remove people fro your "friends" list if you want to "hide" form them BRAVO! Mute them if you don't want to hear them knocking. Set your buisy note if you dont wish to be "bothered"... and log OFF if you do not feel like being social today.

OPT in FTW.

~Cheers

 

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In one other thread I have suggested this:

Two alternative ways to login:

1. • Login normally (and appear online)
2. • Login and appear offline

It would be great also when we have logged in if there was a toggle:

• Appear online
• Appear offline

The default message one gets, if one IMs somebody who is offline, should be changed:

- from:
" Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later."

- to:
 "Second Life: User not available at this time - your message has been stored for the user for their later handling."

This message would be sent when the user is offline, and also when the user is online but has chosen to appear offline. Thus this message would not reveal the online status of the user. The user is just "Unavailable". So the message sender has no knowledge is the user really offline or is the user online and has chosen to appear offline. This way we would have a choice not to broadcast our login status to the world if we so choose to.

I really don't get it why when logging in into virtual world we are at once forced to appear online. :smileyindifferent:

PS.
I wonder why the online status and last login is shown in groups for group members? It should be removed. So also all other true online status indicators (scripts).

The question is: Is Linden Lab really interested to give us free choise about our online status..?
question.gif

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