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Toysoldier Thor

IF LL cant compete on Innovation - Stifle Competiton

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Baloo Uriza wrote:


Anaiya Arnold wrote:

What value should I place on my customer's opinion, however ill-informed?  Well to get that answer you merely have to ask, "how much do I value having a solvent company or job?"  However much you value a solvent business and job, that's how much value you ought to put on your customers' opinions and level of satisfaction.


That wrongly assumes that the customer is never wrong, and that the customer knows what's better for everyone else who also works with that company.

How does referring to an opinion as "ill informed" assume that it is right.

The customer is always the source of income.  No source of income = no solvent business.  The customer, right or wrong, is the source of a business's solvency.  Whatever they know, their satisfaction and opinions are a core concern of anyone who wants to get their money.

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

This is a company with a culture that is clearly in the early immature stages of corporate culture and still believes that their customers should bow to them for their amazing products and services they brought to the market.  A culture that still sees the customer as a burden to them - not the ones that ultimately puts a paycheck in their employee's hands.

This seems a tad over the top.  The company has been around since the late 1990s.  Just because they don't serve the world on a silver platter doesn't mean that they're not listening.  It means more that it's either impractical to try, impossible to do so or not in the company's or userbase's best interest to do so.  Obviously they're doing more right than wrong for you or you wouldn't still be here.

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Anaiya Arnold wrote:


Baloo Uriza wrote:



The only people saying the Lindens hate innovation is the Emerald crew. 

 

Gee, I had no idea approximately half the grid were part of the "Emerald crew". 

You grossly overestimate the size of a small, vocal minority.

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Anaiya Arnold wrote:

The customer is always the source of income.  No source of income = no solvent business.  The customer, right or wrong, is the source of a business's solvency.  Whatever they know, their satisfaction and opinions are a core concern of anyone who wants to get their money.

If you're not paying, you're not a customer.  You're not paying for the viewer, ergo viewer matters aren't customer issues.

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Baloo Uriza wrote:


Anaiya Arnold wrote:


Baloo Uriza wrote:



The only people saying the Lindens hate innovation is the Emerald crew. 

 

Gee, I had no idea approximately half the grid were part of the "Emerald crew". 

You grossly overestimate the size of a small, vocal minority.

  My point is my point.  If you have a pre-determined conclusion that this point leads away from in application, that is a matter of your inconvenience.

 

I have not over estimated anything because such an estimate is utterly irrelevant to what I have argued.  Put the strawman down Baloo; he probably did not put that bee in your bonnet.

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Baloo Uriza wrote:


Anaiya Arnold wrote:

The customer is always the source of income.  No source of income = no solvent business.  The customer, right or wrong, is the source of a business's solvency.  Whatever they know, their satisfaction and opinions are a core concern of anyone who wants to get their money.

If you're not paying, you're not a customer.  You're not paying for the viewer, ergo viewer matters aren't customer issues.

 

What percentage of Ll's customers do not use one or another viewer to access SL Baloo? 

 

 

 

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Baloo Uriza wrote:

The only people saying the Lindens hate innovation is the Emerald crew. 

 

Why do you continue to live in the past?  There is no more Emerald Crew?

And as we used to say in Church, "Chapter and Verse." 

I have both listened to the Phoenix Hour as well as read their official posts and no where have I heard them say or write, "The Linden's Hate Innovation."

Maybe there are individuals who think this way but that makes them no more right than when you paint all of them with your personal prejudices.

What I do hear is the same concern expressed not just by TPV developers but many others that this policy can and will discourage innovation.  Go read Tateru's blog.  Go read Prokfy's blog.  They are not developers but they are concerned.  I can add to the list. I chose those two because they are usually at odds with each other.

What about Avatar 2.0?    http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Avatar_2.0

"Linden Lab has no actual agenda nor plans to introduce Avatar 2.0 feature. This is a residents collaborating suggestion effort."

Does that encourage innovation?  Are you going to tell me that the Avatar Mesh couldn't stand some improvements?  Try telling that to all the ladies out there who are spending a fortune on Prim feet.  We will watch to see what part of your anatomy their foot connects with.

 

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

LOL I wish I were smart enough in technology to even be considered to be on the Emerald crew or any TPV crew for that matter.

But yess... how did Emerald go under with 1000's of staff on board? lol

There was 1000s of us working on Emerald? Haha.

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Baloo Uriza wrote:


Anaiya Arnold wrote:

The customer is always the source of income.  No source of income = no solvent business.  The customer, right or wrong, is the source of a business's solvency.  Whatever they know, their satisfaction and opinions are a core concern of anyone who wants to get their money.

If you're not paying, you're not a customer.  You're not paying for the viewer, ergo viewer matters aren't customer issues.

Wrong. While Linden Labs offers the viewer for free, and a partial expereince in SL for free, it becomes a customer matter when a viewer is NEEDED to access paid products, I.E land owned, items purchased using any kind of real money funding.  Any time REAL money is exchanged for land, products or services, (includung peer services as first real money has to be exchanged for ingame lindens through LL, and nearly never comes back out of game, and when it does, it is at a fee, thus peer sales are a profit for LL) then ANY REQUIRED tool for obtaining/using these products and services, even if free, becomes a customer issue... PERIOD.
As for everyone using Emerald as an example, it is a mute point.  it has been a mute point, and has ZERO berring on the current TPV situation.  When that situation arose, it was dealt with, and Phoenix was born, fully compliant to its rules and regulations. 
As far as a degraded experience by those who do not use a viewer with enhancements... that is your PERSONAL choice to feel like some kind of martyr.  If you enjoy using LL viewer, then do so.  How does it degrade your expereince knowing others may have more features viewable on their viewer.  it does NOT impact your personal expereince.  It does not change your expereince.  All it does is make you kick the dirt and say "well, well, THEY can do this.. it isnt FAIR.. mommy make them STOP!!!!".    And again, pulling the broken down, mute "well, emerald did this way back when under different sets of rules governing TPV's, before they complied fully to newer ones and became phoenix" is just sad.  That is all you people have.  LET IT GO!  its OVER. 

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Baloo Uriza wrote:


Toysoldier Thor wrote:

why has all copybotting incidents [...] version of the opensource code when they could have been much more stealthy and just taking the data from the VRAM using LL Viewer and not be banned because of the viewer they were using?

[...] most copybotters aren't using the open source codebase, but code that was developed
prior to the release of the viewer code
 [...] 

Most people may not have realized that one of the factors in open-sourcing the Viewer was that it had already been reverse-engineered.  There was already a TPV, before there was any open source Viewer.  It was a force that could not be stopped, so part of the decision was to play along to the mutual benefit of the TPV developer crowd and LL's internal development.

As explained, the entire 3D information is sent to your Viewer.  If you can reprogram the Viewer or substitute your own ("third-party") Viewer, you can intercept everything and copy it.  And even if you can't do that, there are programs that can use to reach "lower down" into your computer to intercept it on it's way to your screen (either before or after the 3D is turned into 2D).

There are two other points above that I think are worth addressing here.

1. There is actually no way that LL can prevent a third-party Viewer (including a copybot) from connecting to Second Life.  There are a few things they could do to make it trickier, but when all is said and done, no way to prevent it.

2. The reason you haven't heard of non-Viewer copying is that you haven't heard very much.

 

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Baloo Uriza wrote:

Irrelevant, given that the Lab's in the business of a specialized kind of hosting, not the viewer market.

If LL was only in the specials hosting market they would concentrate on making their hosting platform both stellar and proliferate it.  

LL is in the business of marketing an integrated product comprising of both hosting and viewer. You could liken it to Apple's iOS business model where the iDevices are the hosting and iOS is the viewer. 

What lacks for LL to have a fully integerated product is own content. So what we see is in essence a struggle between LL and the content providers who wants to move the experience forward much faster than LL is ready to (or in a different direction.)

The failure on LL's part is the total lack of a developer program that clearly communicates to, and with the content developers to build a shared strategy for how to take both parties business forward, and make the overall experience much more compelling. 

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I don't understand why LL keep persisting in developing a viewer which hardly anybody uses. Wouldn't they be better just offering the basic viewer to get people started and put the money saved on viewer development into improving the infrastructure and rest of the user experience?

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Anne Willful wrote:

I don't understand why LL keep persisting in developing a viewer which hardly anybody uses. Wouldn't they be better just offering the basic viewer to get people started and put the money saved on viewer development into improving the infrastructure and rest of the user experience?

The want to do both: improve their Viewer and improve the system.

There are lots of reasons for doing the Viewer development in-house.   First and foremost is control over the product. Second is that LL needs to control the timing of features; it is a strategic corporate secret when major new features will be released.  For example, LL has decided to change the direction of Second Life and turn it into a gaming platform. Features for gaming need to go in the Viewer.  Linden Lab needs to control when that knowlege becomes known to the public.  Those are just a couple of reasons.

I understand that Viewer 2 was not done in-house - it was outsourced.  Certainly LL had control over that product, through proprietary contractual agreements with the development company.   And that turned out to be a total disaster.

Linden Lab is now trying to work more closely with third party developers such as the Firestorm team. However, their strategy for this is to forbid third parties from introducing any significant features; LL must originate and release any new features in the Official Viewer before any TPV may have have the feature.  This is a new atmosphere and a new tension, fraught with uncertainty for the TPV community, who largely sees this as hostile until proven otherwise.  (Who would want to spend thousands of hours of effort on a feature, when you will not be allowed to release it when you're done, and it is completely unknown whether it will ever be released at all?)  It wlll be interesting to see how this plays out over the next year.

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Anne Willful wrote:

I don't understand why LL keep persisting in developing a viewer which hardly anybody uses. Wouldn't they be better just offering the basic viewer to get people started and put the money saved on viewer development into improving the infrastructure and rest of the user experience?

You mean, like they're already doing?

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:


Zanara Zenovka wrote:


Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

I know some SL Residents dont care if Viewer Tagging and Color Tagging were to go but that does not dismiss that others find it valuable.  Zanara stated earlier that she is happy to see it go.  

I said no such thing. Learn to read or stop making things up, whichever deficiency accounts for your constant fabrications.

And right from the horse's mouth in this thread of you being happy to see a menace go away (menace to you but likely not to others)....

 

Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Actually it that they are braking Viewer Tags this week. online status is in the next couple weeks but he wasnt sure.

Just as well - those high-speed viewer tags racing all over the grid are a serious menace!

 

 

 

WOW. Just...Wow...

OK, lets spell it out for the back of the bus...

Your typo: "braking" (ie, to slow down vs "breaking")

Derived puns: "high-speed", "racing all over"

+ Hyperbole: "serious menace"

 = Absurdity: "...high-speed viewer tags racing all over the grid are a serious menace!"

ie, It's a joke, Joyce.

 

Sometimes the fail is so epic, it's an achievement in itself.

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Zanara Zenovka wrote:


Toysoldier Thor wrote:


Zanara Zenovka wrote:


Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

I know some SL Residents dont care if Viewer Tagging and Color Tagging were to go but that does not dismiss that others find it valuable.  Zanara stated earlier that she is happy to see it go.  

I said no such thing. Learn to read or stop making things up, whichever deficiency accounts for your constant fabrications.

And right from the horse's mouth in this thread of you being happy to see a menace go away (menace to you but likely not to others)....

 

Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Actually it that they are braking Viewer Tags this week. online status is in the next couple weeks but he wasnt sure.

Just as well - those high-speed viewer tags racing all over the grid are a serious menace!

 

 

 

WOW. Just...Wow...

OK, lets spell it out for the back of the bus...

Your typo: "braking" (ie, to slow down vs "breaking")

Derived puns: "high-speed", "racing all over"

+ Hyperbole: "serious menace"

 = Absurdity: "...high-speed viewer tags racing all over the grid are a serious menace!"

ie, It's a joke, Joyce.

 

Sometimes the fail is so epic, it's an achievement in itself.

 

LOL ahhh that is the Zanara we all know and love..... Petty shots to cover up her own OOPSIESSS....

To all the others on theis thread..... remember my definition of a LL Cheerleader that I have had to deal with in the past and present.....   Welcome to Zanara... the current leader of the cheerleaders.

Keep on taking stabs Z.... it just means you still love me  ROFL!  Your posting already proved I was right.   Not go back to your other threads and leave us to get back on topic.

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Baloo Uriza wrote:

Irrelevant, given that the Lab's in the business of a specialized kind of hosting, not the viewer market.

It's not irrelevant at all if the Lab's customer satisfaction directly correlates to their satisfaction with the predominate means of accessing the product.

 

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Baloo Uriza wrote:


Anne Willful wrote:

I don't understand why LL keep persisting in developing a viewer which hardly anybody uses. Wouldn't they be better just offering the basic viewer to get people started and put the money saved on viewer development into improving the infrastructure and rest of the user experience?

You mean, like they're already doing?

I understand there is a viewer 3 to follow the little  used viewer 2 but I've never seen any one using it. (or ever will do now the ability to see what viewer someone is using has been taken away)  so it seems they are still developing viewers


 

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To be fair, those tags weren't terribly reliable anyway; seems the vanity colors also screwed with the ability to correctly detect viewers.  V2 was never detectable as such.

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"To be fair, those tags weren't terribly reliable anyway; seems the vanity colors also screwed with the ability to correctly detect viewers.  V2 was never detectable as such."

You right !

For instance on opensim , with one last version updated of TPV , only 2/14 viewers are correctly named ... so less than 15% 

 

iewers_firestorm_002.jpg

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