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Third Party Viewer Policy Changes Comments

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Miranda Umino wrote:

You can t compare the backlog of issues because the both jiras have not created at the same time , because they have not the same number of reporters , and because it has no meaning for Quality Assureance . 

 

Okay, then by that same logic couldn't you say that Firestorm would have more reported issues because it's newer, and that they've fixed technically more bugs than LL has in the last 30 days?

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Selene Gregoire wrote:

*tries to stop giggling long enough to make a reply*

I'm not concerned about it. I countered the misinformation and provided the links so she could go look up the information for herself.

 

*still giggling*

I'm laughing because I don't use what is now called Avatar Physics. Never have and seriously doubt I ever will. And just fyi, it does seem to be working quite well for the majority of those who use it.
:)

And yes it does make one wonder (every great once in a blue moon) out of the hundreds of JIRAs posted on LL's JIRA in a month's time just how many have actually been resolved/fixed and how many were closed because LL has no intention of "fixing" them.

Anyway, I believe the point(s) have been made so I think I will wander off and find something better to do. Like helping people get thier issues fixed.
;)

They often close down a lot of JIRAs as "will not add/fix." They actually resolve a fair amount of JIRAs that linden lab employees actually post. But the fast majority of outstanding, and important issues that the users post go unnoticed. Took then like 2 years to fix inventory jump-to. Prob took whoever fixed it 10-15 mins.

And Avatar Physics are def a hit or miss with people, as I found out. LOTS of people liked it, LOTS of people didn't. It goes either way. Physics work well if your framerate stays 100% the same. It goes all to hell, though at lower framerates. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25545?

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"Okay, then by that same logic couldn't you say that Firestorm would have more reported issues because it's newer, and that they've fixed technically more bugs than LL has in the last 30 days?"


Where is your point ? What is the link with mine ?

I ve already told that it was the difference reported-resolved who was important .

 

Do you think it s important to count the bugs from 2006-2007 in the jira of second life  althought they have changed all the code of their viewer twice or third times ? ANd so the bugs don t exist anymore because they have changed their viewer but are always on the jira ?

 

Jo Exanar has writen "they ( in speaking of linden ) should to concentrate on bugs" .

If the difference reported-resolved is nearly zero  or negative , it means than the next release will be better , and that the total number of issues will decrease.

But If the difference reported-resolved is important as in phoenix , it means than the next release will be worst and the total number of issues will increase

 

So Jo exanar can t blame Linden , because they do their job, and they concentrate on bugs . But Phoenix doesn t concentrate on bugs 

 

 

 

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Danny, I was speaking of the Avatar Physics as they are in Phoenix and Firestorm. Judging by the number of people who ask for help with it in the support group (which is the quickest way to get help with most issues rather than filing a JIRA) there aren't that many who are having a major issue with it. No, it's not perfect (what is really?) but it is far better now than it was 2 years ago or even as far back as *cough*Emerald*cough*.

 

Scroll to the bottom of this page http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/firestorm_avatar_physics and you will see the known issues and some known workarounds for Firestorm. Granted, they are not fixes per se (as in coding), but they are better than nothing and the devs are working (or were in light of the new TPV policy) on fixes for the next release.

For Phoenix, http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/phoenix_avatar_physics and there is a link at the bottom to a PH JIRA.

As I have said, the information is out there. You just have to look for it. :) 

 

P.S. Yes LL does fix quite a few issues all the time. The sad thing is most of the ones that are fixed are, as you said, those posted by Lindens and not the "general population". That does not hold true for PH/FS. The support team and the devs do not post the vast majority of the JIRAs. Although they do occasionally when they have an issue they need help with ;). I admit I spend most of my time either in the support group or trying to get the forum updated after a long absence but I do keep up with what is going on. I have to. :)

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How can you compare volunteers to paid developers?

TPV teams provide the viewers, support sites and file hosting space for their viewers for FREE as a community service.

LL developers are PAID to work, often FULL TIME. I honestly don't care if you are a basic member,premium member or Concierge. And I doubt they do either... They are going to get their pay check come pay day anyway. As any employee of any company should get for working their jobs.
The LL developed viewer is created by full time employees of a company with unlimited acces the the "back end". And with knowledge of all upcoming features/code fixes.

TPV are developed form the code that LindenLab supply and only the information within that code and LL wiki pages that helps them connect to the server 'features'.
LindenLab have basically said that the TPV developers can create a new skin/interface and put it on v2/3. "And new feature ideas must go through us". Will the programming credits go to the developers that submitted their code to LL for approval? Or will it be claimed that all code submitted becomes property of LL?

And if LL doesnt like the idea? What then? *coughs...Multi attachments...coughs* Historically LL have NOT approved these ideas and changes as they are "too complicated", "too expensive" and "not what we believe our users want". Yes Emerald created Multi attachment points against the wishes of Ll and hey look... After LL saw people used them and wanted them they decided that it could be a good idea to add them.

Phoenix has windlighting... Guess what LL are doing now? Physics, GUI changes, inventory changes...
The LL viewer is driven by trying to keep up with TPVs. Now TPVs are being forced to stay one step behind... Or become an illegal viewer?
Then the rationality of LL. Breaking a well documented LSL function that is widely used around the grid JUST because it was used in a bridge of a TPV. I am beginning to see why people are hesitant to call lsl a programming language... There is no stability at all...
Viewer tags are broken. I don't know if you have listened to the audio yet. The Developers were the LAST to know after it was done. "If you edit appearance you will see them dissapear in this region and Tuesday, across the grid".
Regarding the lsl function. "I am aware that some of you have used lsl to find true online status. This is not allowed and we are breaking the function that allows it".

They won't 'fix'the function to actually hide the status of a user that wants to be hidden as per the jira request, that costs too much money... Instead just break it... No one will care... Well LL don't think so anyway...

And one more quote that has me rethinking my position in Secondlife as compared to other grids... "We will give you the links and some time so that you can tell your users to blame us"...
THEY KNEW FULL WELL THAT PEOPLE WOULD NOT BE HAPPY!

They claim they have changed with new management yet are happy to ride on the old reputation of "Blame it on the Lindens" how about not giving us anything to blame you for?

Just my lil rant...
There honestly is only one thing holding me from selling all my regions and closing my account. And I can say without a doubt, It's no thanks to a Linden...

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I've noticed a couple things in this forum and on the two jiras related to the hide online status.  There's two things I think need said:

1) for the people worried that the adboards will be broken by some of these changes: Owners and creators of a script designed to show online function will still be able to have their status seen by the object.  So store owners can still have  a status indicator for customers. 

2) RE: RLV and temp uploads: Oz stated RLV is safe.  Other Lindens I talked to said Temp textures should also be safe.

3) The viewer tag I think is an unfortunate causualty of the fact there are viewers that display not only the viewer tag but the ip and even in some cases the computer specs, mac address and such that people then use to attempt to track down other users.

4) I see a lot of Blame The Victim mentality here in terms of victims of stalking.  "Oh they should just go to the police."  In fact police are limited to what they can do to protect people.  The simple fact is that LL has a moral and legal obligation to protect user privacy and they sometimes are forced to take draconian measures in order to protect the company.  Linden Lab is far from the only gaming company breaking functionality in order to provide comply with existing or pending privacy regulations in a variety of countries.

That said, I do feel the new tvp policy is badly written and I do feel that it would have been better if LL had implimented changes to LSL that were more in keeping with what the Jiras had asked for: Namely that LSL functions follow the same rules of the built in viewer online status check.

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Miranda Umino wrote:

Ok , resolved and not solved , but i don t misuse the numbers .

By the way , it s true than "resolved" for firestorm can be "wait a fix from linden"

 

 

In the JIRA of Linden it says "resolved" , and in the JIra of Firestorm it says resolved too .

So they have the same interpretation . 

 

But for Linden they resolve as fast as they are new issues created . 

And for Firestorm they don t resolve as fast as they are new issues created .

So , we can tell that the quality is going to increase for Linden and decrease for firestorm .

 

You can t compare the backlog of issues because the both jiras have not created at the same time , because they have not the same number of reporters , and because it has no meaning for Quality Assureance . 

 

For Quality assureance , the most important is not to know the total number of bug , but to know if they will decrase or they will increase

 

Jira is a system who works on several other enterprises ( other than linden ), it s a standard , and if the cconcepters of jira  have chosen to not display the number of backlogs , it s because tit doesn t mean anything . Only the progression is important

You are still (mis)using the numbers.  Let's take my JIRA as  an example:

http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-4146

First of all, I had a response to my JIRA the SAME DAY that I posted it.  I was asked for more information so they had to wait for my response.  After running the requested tests it was determined that the problem was in the base code of Viewer 3.  At this point they could have just said, we can't do anything until Linden Lab fixes the base code and closed the JIRA.  And called the issue "resolved." 

Compare that to the JIRA I then posted to Linden Lab:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2886

I posted my JIRA on Dec 28.  It was THREE WEEKS later before a Linden even looked at it.  And for all I know, except for the fact it did get assigned to a Linden, there has been no other activity on it even though it was marked by a Linden as a major bug. 

I did have direct communication with a FS Dev seeing if there was something I could do on my end to resolve my problem.  I haven't had a Linden contact me.  So you tell me who is giving better support?

You and I DO NOT KNOW how many of the bug reports Firestorm receives are because of problems in the Viewer 3 base code. 

Also, there are other things that could account for the larger  number of FS JIRA's. 

Perhaps Firestorm users are more proactive about filing reports.  How about how many people have given up on filing reports to Linden Lab.

So at best your attempt to use these numbers to prove anything is either a simple not understanding their implications or at worst a case of opinionated dishonesty.

 

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Gotta love the new changes. Especially the last one....

 

"You must not provide any feature that alters the shared experience of the virtual world in any way not provided by or accessible to users of the latest released Linden Lab viewer."

 

Linden Labs is now stifling innovation, creativity, and the wealth of experience brought by third party viewers. It's a sad day.

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LOL Miranda.... you have to be kidding us if you think anyone believes you that LL quickly resolves JIRAs....

Here is the poster child of JIRA Jokes from LL.  

BTW this JIRA even had Oz Linden poke his head into the jira last spring after I publically embarassed Rodvik on Twitter about this JIRA and that I contacted the Phoenix Team to see if they could provide some assistance to the JIRA and they stated they would try.

And you can see from the entire comment thread how much effort Oz Linden put into resolving this long standing bug.  NOTHING!

Why is this JIRA the poster child of LL's poor handling of JIRA's....  BECAUSE IT IS NOW OVER 4 YEARS OLD !!!

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28409

 

So please dont tell us how quickly LL fix bugs in SL..... proof is in the pudding.

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Please dont change

Where is the fun in SL, when it suppose to be ?

With all those huds, residents need more Alts and therfore generating more money to SL.

Are you screwing your own business here

Sorry to say its stupid to remove all these features

Love and regards

Simonita

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I agree 100%

where is the fun when SL have restrictions like RL?

Residents can take Alts to avoid being spyied and this will generates more money to SL

Pls consider this before listening to residents complains, taking themselves too seriously when nobody does...

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This is really absurd..

Wasting effort and time in the purpose of closing down residents business , who are only making Second Life fun and enjoyable is a real shame.

Closing those features will harm lots of people and most of all Linden Labs and business

Simonita Davidov

 

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For all residents who like privacy , scratch your pockets and use Alts who at least make money to Linden Labs instead of shutting down residents business.

Closing those features will be fatal to all.

I wish Linden Labs join all efforts to sort out more important problems like fixing their viewers for example.

Wish no changes will happen and SL will stay enjoyable like always

Lolita Pralou


Kae Fox wrote:

Greetings,


I run a business that informs users of the online status of Second Life users anywhere in the world using a PC Client, Web Notifications, Cellphone Lists and in-world HUD tools. This business has been running for 6 years now. This new policy and removal of script functionality will terminate my business and outrage all of my users.


What do my users use the service for?

When a loved one comes online, they get a notification and they then log into SL to be with them.

Business managers track all their employee shifts and make sure they are online when they should be.

Individual users will choose not to log into SL if there is someone else already online they want to avoid.

An out-of-world buddy list that can keep notes and color preferences.

But most importantly, a PC notification system where if any friend logs on, they can choose to log in too and join them.


How would this be better solved?

Make privacy choices the same for scripts as for viewers. If someone wants to log-in as invisible, they can, but dont destroy all scripting functionality because a few users dont know how to use the Mute button.


Overreaction:

Removal of vital scripting code is an example of going too far. Privacy may be important for some users, but there are others who want to have their status known, so they can have the opportunity of joining friends or having notifications sent to them after they log in. Instantly setting all users into stealth mode will have a majority negative impact on the user experience, affecting everyone, all Second Life users, instead of just expanding stealth mode to hide those that want to be hidden.



Hats off to you Linden Labs, for wanting to close down more of your in-world businesses.

--

Kae Fox


Chimera Development LLC



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I really cannot understand why LL would want to piss off the majority of their users ( in most sims i visit tpv are used by 80-100% of all users) unless they really want to get rid of these users

Putting the announcemnt out on the second life viewer forum which is one place no TPV user is likely to look suggests that they do

 Anne

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Some of these changes are TERRIBLE.  NOt being able to see online statuses would be a HUGE pain for me.  I like to keep an eye out for my SL friends when I'm working on my computer so I can log in when they do, and this will keep me from doing that.  I can't run SL 24/7, and even if I could, it'd be a pointless drain on servers to just sit there logged in while I'm surfing the web or whatever.

Not being able to see what viewer other people  are using would be annoying, too.  It's handy to know what they have so I know what they can see and so I can help newbies with their settings.  This is just a bad idea all around.

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The 2k rule seems to go way too far. It's as if LL was saying "if we don't make it, you can't use it." The point of using third party viewers is to have features that the official SL viewer lacks. Oddly, the official SL viewer upgrades mimic many of the added features given to third party viewers. 

The rule seems like a transparent mens for SL to ban third party viewers, since no new features can be added to it. This guarantees that the official SL viewer will be the most advanced viewer, not because of the coding work of Linden Labs, yet by hamstringing anyone else from developing new ideas.

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Thinking about this more, this policy change could be the first nail in SL's coffin.

A while back, I was discussing with some people on SL what it would take to kill SL.  I said it would take someone making a new version with updated technology AND LL would have to institute some poilicy that drove away a large number of people who would otherwise stay simply because they had so much time and/or money invested in SL. 

Well, if LL wants to drive away all the 3rd-party viewer people who have proven to be innovative and have a good grasp of the technology, while also driving off everyone who uses those 3rd-party features like RLV, they're laying the groundwork for both these things at the same time.  Some of those people who are making viewers for SL might decide to just make their own virtual world with their spiffy features, plus maybe updated technology like better-integrated mesh and a better physics engine, and all the people who want them and can't use them in SL will leave.  Before long, SL is a ghost town.

Maybe LL is just tired of running SL and wants to quit?

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Just sounds like more misinformation and "SL is gonna die!" nonsense. I find it hard to believe anything will change from this, and like the previous panic from Display Names to the Grid Merge, nothing will happen and everybody will wait for the next thing LL does to complain about it.

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Linden lab never said they were removing any friends list or indicator for friends from the website or viewer. This is a topic reguarding Third Party Viewers remember? They plan to break the LSL function that allows scripts to see the true online status and in turn breaking the online indicator in Phoenix and countless products and scripts in the process. Furthermore the argument that you need to see another persons viewer so you know what they can see is a pointless argument. ALL viewers will HAVE to display the same objects etc the SAME. This is the shared experience part of it all...

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Kestrel Zaurak wrote:

The 2k rule seems to go way too far. It's as if LL was saying "if we don't make it, you can't use it." The point of using third party viewers is to have features that the official SL viewer lacks. Oddly, the official SL viewer upgrades mimic many of the added features given to third party viewers. 

The rule seems like a transparent mens for SL to ban third party viewers, since no new features can be added to it. This guarantees that the official SL viewer will be the most advanced viewer, not because of the coding work of Linden Labs, yet by hamstringing anyone else from developing new ideas.

Nope.   LL is saying feel free to add any number of new features to the UI and controls -- performance tweaks,  advanced building tools, Qarl's aligner, client-side AO, categorised friends list,  additional types of inventory filtering, LSL pre-processor, particle editor etc -- but you can't any more, or not without prior reference to LL, add new stuff that other people can see in world, or not, or see differently, depending on what viewer they're using.

The rule can certainly be criticised, since, to my mind, there's great force in the argument that by introducing new features -- extra attachment points, jiggly boobs, parcel windlight --  in a hacky and inefficient way (because, without access to the servers, that's often the only way open to TPV devs), TPVs demonstrate that there's a demand for these features, and this pushes LL into doing the features themselves, or in collaboration with TPV devs, only properly.  

Though, to my mind, there is also force in the counter-argument that you're bound to get features that just aren't suitable for widespread use (they're unacceptably laggy if too many people use them, for example), and then you end up with lots of people complaining when LL says they can't be used at all.

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Regarding temp textures. I would go out of business without them. It takes me about 20 to get one item right! Oh, Lord, I hope that's a rumor! The temp tex is just a damn tool! Nothing more for me.

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From the way Nalates explains what was said at the Server-Scripting Group, temp texture uploads may get broken, but not intentionally.   Rather, apparently temp uploads rely on a hack involving the avatar bake pipeline.   The avatar bake system is being overhauled to make it more robust (so people not getting ruthed/stuck as clouds so frequently), and if temp uploads get broken in the process, then they get broken.   If they don't, they don't.

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