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Third Party Viewer Policy Changes Comments

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:


Sassy Romano wrote:

No there won't. 

I really don't understand what you mean by this...

 

and yes that's exactly my point, when set to show offline, it SHOULD show offline, to everything, groups, the lot.  But at present it doesn't, ergo LL have totally got this out of context.

To hide your status in the group I think you can simply hide the group, it's a clumsy workaround, but a workaround nonetheless. This has got nothing to do with the issue with the ll function. I really hope the group "back door" is closed though, it shouldn't be hard to implement.

 

If it's that hard to return the correct chosen offline status by llRequestAgentData() then LL have something very wrong in the back end infrastructure since so many other methods are already getting online/offline status.

It's not hard at all I think, but it would require constant checks. How else will the script know you changed your settings?

 

 

Simple.  There does NOT need to be a new function.  The existing function only needs to return the online/offline state as set by the user in the viewer.

I'm not sure why that's hard to comprehend really?

Groups ALSO need to show that status, at present they don't.  Hiding a group doesn't help if someone is in the SAME GROUP.

What i'm saying is that if i've set my status to show offline, EVERY SINGLE LL BIT that shows it, should show it offline. 

A script makes a call to llRequestAgentData, that should do a check to see what the online status is, if my viewer has it set to offline, that's the response that should be returned.  It really is very very simple how it *should* work.

A script will query again, the status boards might do this once per minute, once every 10 mins, whatever.  This is current behaviour fixing the back end to report the correct status requires no inworld change, no new function and doesn't break any content.  The end.

 

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Simply making llRequestAgentData respect the online/offline preference would solve the problem. Without breaking content. To put this in perspective, if we break this function, lets remove groups, and IM ability as well, since neither of these respects the check, and will show someones "true" online status.

Simply make llRequestAgentData respect if someone has already checked "appear offline" in there settings, no new function needed, no new permission box needed. If the load on the back end is too much, implement a throtle to slow down incoming requests much as many LSL functions already have.

Much better than wholesale breaking a function that is very important to many, upon which many business are based, breaking thousands of pieces of content, and being openly hostile to content creators. To say nothing of the hundreds or thousands of people that will suddenly become outraged and flood creators with IM's when this function stops working.

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I don't like this.

1) It will destroy the ability for me to check of one of my friens is online without having to log onto SL myself. Which saves me a BUNCH of time and makes me miss important people much less often!

2) Not being able to know what viewer the other person uses makes it a lot harder to know if certain people are able to actually SEE changes in world (lightning concepts, the ability to use the new rendering methods etc) which makes it a hassle for me as content creator and inworld builder to actually make things look good.

Being able to see what majority of viewers are used helps me a LOT

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I use the online status notifications to help me find minions that needs blood and people who want to trade souls with me.  I would hate to see this go.  Also knowing viewers helps id alts that are griefers.

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I was confused because you quoted my entire post then began with:

"No it doesn't...Yes [etc...] "

As I said, the group thing is a completely different issue, something I personally would like to see fixed. If you hide your groups however, how on earth is some random person going to figure out if you're online? By checking all gazillion groups? It's clumsy, I said that already, but it does work in just about all cases.

If a message board checks every 10 minutes, that shouldn't bring any noticable load on any system, I fully agree. But from what I've seen, most people like their particle scripts to spit out 10000 particles every second, scan entire sims and use their timers on a 0.05 second basis....

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Netsuko Yoshikawa wrote:

 

1) It will destroy the ability for me to check of one of my friens is online without having to log onto SL myself. Which saves me a BUNCH of time and makes me miss important people much less often!

You can see your friends on your dashboard page aswell, no need to log onto SL.

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

As I said, the group thing is a completely different issue, something I personally would like to see fixed. If you hide your groups however, how on earth is some random person going to figure out if you're online? By checking all gazillion groups? It's clumsy, I said that already, but it does work in just about all cases.

If a message board checks every 10 minutes, that shouldn't bring any noticable load on any system, I fully agree. But from what I've seen, most people like their particle scripts to spit out 10000 particles every second, scan entire sims and use their timers on a 0.05 second basis....

There is no value or real privacy invasion in the first place in some random person knowing if someone they don't know is online or not.  The claim for the need for this change is to stop stalkers and such like.  It's highly likely that such a person would already know group memberships and besides, the group membership should honour the choice to be shown and offline.  Hiding a group isn't something anyone should have to do if they don't want to, similarly, it's quite likely that someone who is a stalker will have a reason and probably already has a script or object with mod permission from their intended target.  Think, anyone who has already sold objects that are mod.

On the checking, it seems that all agree that a simple throttle from the same object such as has been implemented for llGiveInventory would be a suitable solution then.

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I have been a Resident for over 5 years and I am very upset.  Little by little Linden Lab has created an adversarial relationship between the creators of content and themselves.  Someone comes along with a great idea and LL allows them to develop it and beging to make money from it and LL comes along creates new law which completly upsurps the idea from the resident creator.  I am totally against the third party policy change!!! 

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If your ears are better than mine, you may be OK. But audio isn't good for this sort of stuff. It needs a special sort of guy to overcome the disadvantages, a combination of performance and good script. Rhetoric and oratory used to be prized skills.

I would pay Oz to stay away from a microphone, if that were his audition tape.

 

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The ability to see who is online is important to me. If this feature is taken away then my Online boards for my business or for knowing who in the clan available to be paged to help someone becomes just useless expensive garbage. I don't like the idea of loseing all that money to get the items I need to run things smoothly taken a away. i call this stealling from me in reality by LL.

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"You must not provide any feature that alters the shared experience of the virtual world in any way not provided by or accessible to users of the latest released Linden Lab viewer."

Linden Lab will be violating this very rule by turning off the ability to view online statuses. THEY will be altering OUR current shared experience of Second Life. How dare they allow it all this time and then decide to take it away from TPVs when LL's own website allows it when you view profiles. How is this a violation of privacy to know when friends are online? Can't LL just leave things alone and just work on improvements like reducing lag instead of reducing features that everyone has enjoyed? It is getting harder and harder to enjoy SL with the current bugs it has without taking way features the work and users like. Seriously, if TPVs are going to start being forced to become just clones of LL's Viewer 2, then SL will start losing it's lead in  on-line virtual reality gaming  and their fans will start taking their own experiences, crafts and skills out of SL and enhance another online virtual world somewhere else . . . like www.avination.com. I've already created an account with them for just such a purpose so I can be ready when the mood moves me. Keeping pushing LL, you already have us on the edge!

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*golfclap*.

Outstanding Job LL. Let's not bother fixing any of the outstanding, game breaking bugs that have been in the viewer for years and years, nor bother to finish any of things you started that could actually have been useful.

Let's also not bother to listen to the community, patch/fix/add things that THEY want. You know .. the people who put that money that's sitting in your pocket right now. If it weren't for the USERS, you wouldn't have made a cent.

It's abominable things like this keep happening. For years now, they've been giving nothing but constant oppression and disrespect for the users. People can defend LL all they want, but this is just starting to get ridiculous. 

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Danny Nolan wrote:

*golfclap*.

Outstanding Job LL. Let's not bother fixing any of the outstanding, game breaking bugs that have been in the viewer for years and years, nor bother to finish any of things you started that could actually have been useful.

Let's also not bother to listen to the community, patch/fix/add things that THEY want. You know .. the people who put that money that's sitting in your pocket right now. If it weren't for the USERS, you wouldn't have made a cent.

It's abominable things like this keep happening. For years now, they've been giving nothing but constant oppression and disrespect for the users. People can defend LL all they want, but this is just starting to get ridiculous. 

Amen to all of the above.  I have to wonder if this is Rod's first stab at eliminating RLV, or if he's actually trying to move all of the TPV creators to avination.  Nobody of any importance in-world uses the SL Viewer, because the Third Party viewers offer a variety of very compelling features.  Rather than continuing to annoy those who are improving their product for them, perhaps they should concentrate on bug fixes, performance, and stability?  To find a way to patch running servers without restarting regions?  I.e. actually do their work instead of playing politics with the customer base?

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" they should concentrate on bug fixes"


Second life viewer :

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR

Last 30 days : 154 issues opened 179 solved ; so they fix the issues

 

Firestorm viewer :

http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE

Last 30 days : 305 issues opened , 202 solved .. Do they fix the issues ?

 

If you continue to think that Linden doesn t fix the issues , what about Firestorm ?

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It would help a great deal if the people who opened those Firestorm JIRAs would ever actually go back and look at them and respond to them.

You might be very surprised at how many JIRAs are posted that have been responded to by support team members and/or the devs that just sit there waiting for the person with the issue to let them know if the issue has been fixed or even if the issue still exists. Rather difficult to solve an issue when you get zero feedback from the person experiencing the issue. Some of the JIRAs have been sitting there waiting for a response from the OP for weeks and even months before it is finally closed.

Resolving JIRA issues is two way communication and when the communication only occurs on one end there is nothing to be done. Reminders do get sent. We can't force people to respond.

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But selene.... what you have said to defend Firestorm Jiras can be applied too to defend Second Life Viewer Jiras...

 

Some writers in this thread and other threads ( and many writers  , i should tell ) flame against the bugs of second life , and "forget" volontary the bugs of firestorm

 

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Yes, it can. I never said it could not be. The point you are missing is that more people do respond to the LL JIRAs because LL is the owner of SL, not the Phoenix/Firestorm team. Linden Lab is in control of the grid. The PH/FS team has zero control over the grid.

Another point you are missing is that quite often the issue gets resolved in the support group so the person doesn't bother going back the to the JIRA to say "Hey it's fixed. You can close this now." And no the team members have no way of knowing if a JIRA has been filed or not unless the person has told them there is one (and provided a link to said JIRA) or unless the team member spends time searching for the JIRA to close it. Time which is better spent helping people.

Basic accounts get zero support from LL. The Phoenix/Firestorm team quite often fills that enormous gap. Just because a group of people don't pay a monthly fee is no reason not to provide support. Basic accounts buy Ls to pay for things, they buy Ls to pay tier for thier rented sims or parcels. And who gets that money in the end? LL of course. So saying that not paying a monthly fee is reason enough to not provide support is nothing more than a lame excuse.

I'm not defending either JIRA so much as I am pointing out the differences. One really can not be compared to the other. Phoenix/Firestorm members volunteer their time to help others because that is what they want to do. They volunteer out of the kindness in thier hearts. They do not get paid like the LL employees do.

Frankly, (and quite bluntly) comparing the two JIRAs is comparing apples with oranges. There is no comparison.

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I would hope that we would get an understanding of what is meant by altering the user experience. It could mean anything, but it appears to mean nobody is allowed to make features or functions we haven't already made. I think a lighter touch would be a good idea, and see what happens, if its good or not.

Online status is important. Before we log on we want to know who's there. We want to know who saw us log on once we're in. We want to manage our choices with imporant information. Please let that remain public information to know if someone is logged in.

Most of all, please don't be so heavy handed. We residents have put a lot into SL too. Its cultures its communities, its social life. We have created content and made it a home. Please don't mess with it unless you absolutely must. Its not clear what problem your solving, or what useful advantage you will gain by pushing innovators behind you. As they say at Google, 'don't be mean'.

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"Yes, it can. I never said it could not be. The point you are missing is that more people do respond to the LL JIRAs because LL is the owner of SL, not the Phoenix/Firestorm team."

What ??

So if i am developper in the team of phoenix and i create a bug in phoenix , it s the fault of Linden ?

Weird conception of equity and justice.

 

Another point you are missing is that quite often the issue gets resolved in the support group so the person doesn't bother going back the to the JIRA to say "Hey it's fixed. You can close this now." And no the team members have no way of knowing if a JIRA has been filed or not unless the person has told them there is one (and provided a link to said JIRA) or unless the team member spends time searching for the JIRA to close it. Time which is better spent helping people.


Second Life support and second life jira have the same problems . So your argue fail .

 

I don t know why you are talking me about the billing support  and the premium .. The billing support doesn t receive the bugs of viewers , but receive the bugs of accounts , lands and transactions 

https://support.secondlife.com/create-case/

 

 

Where are the unit tests , and the functionnal tests in Firestorm ? Do they exist ? (except these given by Linden )

I didn t see them ...

 

 

 

 

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What part of "I am not defending either JIRA" did you not understand?

You want to know what the devs are doing/have done? Go ask them. Go read the website.

http://www.phoenixviewer.com/

Or how about the link for the change logs:

http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/firestorm_change_log

I'll even give you the link with the SL names of the developers with the Project contact email addresses:

http://www.phoenixviewer.com/contact.php

 

Get the information straight from the horse's mouth. It's all there on the website and what isn't there you can ask the devs.

 

ETA: I said absolutely nothing about billing supprt. I've been in SL for 7 years and I do know how things work.

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Miranda Umino wrote:

" they should concentrate on bug fixes"

 

Second life viewer :

Last 30 days : 154 issues opened 179 solved ; so they fix the issues

 

Firestorm viewer :

Last 30 days : 305 issues opened , 202 solved .. Do they fix the issues ?

 

If you continue to think that Linden doesn t fix the issues , what about Firestorm ?

To be clear IT DOES NOT SAY IN THE JIRA "SOLVED."  It says "RESOLVED."

Resolved can include simply closed.  Also that number does not include the back log of unresolved issues.

The other unknown is how many of the Firestorm issues are dependent upon Linden Lab code fixes (I have one of those myself.)

So please do not misuse those numbers.

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I wouldn't worry about it Selene. This person's defending a company who has made a load of poor choices, and I'm not sure why. I guess there's always got to be one of "those." 

Comparing the Firestorm team and Linden Labs is a horrible comparison. The Firestorm team are not getting paid by linden labs to fix and improve LL's base code. And, the number of resolved issues? Out of the thousands and thousands of jira posts they've only "resolved" 150 of those in a month? Plus, resolved doesn't necessarily mean fixed.

This whole narrow view on TPV is really another nail in the coffin.

And I mean .. comon. If you're going to steal my idea of boob physics, at least finish it and make it work right. 

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Ok , resolved and not solved , but i don t misuse the numbers .

By the way , it s true than "resolved" for firestorm can be "wait a fix from linden"

http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/PHOE-3790

 

 

In the JIRA of Linden it says "resolved" , and in the JIra of Firestorm it says resolved too .

So they have the same interpretation . 

 

But for Linden they resolve as fast as they are new issues created . 

And for Firestorm they don t resolve as fast as they are new issues created .

So , we can tell that the quality is going to increase for Linden and decrease for firestorm .

 

You can t compare the backlog of issues because the both jiras have not created at the same time , because they have not the same number of reporters , and because it has no meaning for Quality Assureance . 

 

For Quality assureance , the most important is not to know the total number of bug , but to know if they will decrase or they will increase

 

Jira is a system who works on several other enterprises ( other than linden ), it s a standard , and if the cconcepters of jira  have chosen to not display the number of backlogs , it s because tit doesn t mean anything . Only the progression is important

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*tries to stop giggling long enough to make a reply*

I'm not concerned about it. I countered the misinformation and provided the links so she could go look up the information for herself.

 

*still giggling*

I'm laughing because I don't use what is now called Avatar Physics. Never have and seriously doubt I ever will. And just fyi, it does seem to be working quite well for the majority of those who use it. :)

And yes it does make one wonder (every great once in a blue moon) out of the hundreds of JIRAs posted on LL's JIRA in a month's time just how many have actually been resolved/fixed and how many were closed because LL has no intention of "fixing" them.

Anyway, I believe the point(s) have been made so I think I will wander off and find something better to do. Like helping people get thier issues fixed. ;)

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