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Third Party Viewer Policy Changes Comments

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

You must have missed the "something similair to that" part of my post. It would need a new function, but it would be like the ones I mentioned: getting a dialog, granting or denying permissions.

It doesn't need a new function.  If I set offline status in my viewer, the back end should then do the look up and see if a) i'm online and if b) i've set show offline.

OR... the bit in the back end that stores the online/offline data flag, is actually set by the viewer choice.  If I set show me offline, them i'm blinking well offline to all intents.

This remains a back end issue, not a script one.  I don't need to be granting permission to anything this way, *I* have already made my choice by the viewer setting.

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Sassy Romano wrote:

It doesn't need a new function.  If I set offline status in my viewer, the back end should then do the look up and see if a) i'm online and if b) i've set show offline.

OR... the bit in the back end that stores the online/offline data flag, is actually set by the viewer choice.  If I set show me offline, them i'm blinking well offline to all intents.

This remains a back end issue, not a script one.  I don't need to be granting permission to anything this way, *I* have already made my choice by the viewer setting.

Since these functions run on a timer, there will have to be constant checking since for some reason you can decide to change your personal setting. A script not runnig or not executing a command because it doesn't have permission, sounds more reasonable to me. All scripts run on the "back end", the server that is.

Btw, if you set your status to offline, you'll show offline to a whole lot more than only some distant online checking script.

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I was alerted on the fact that some features may disapears in the future… like know who is connected on SL…

Personaly I use a lot this to know when I must go connected on SL… when my friends are online… or when I must comme to meet someone I need to see (like a customer or seller).

I dont see how this is an attempt to the privacy, because when we are connected we could see who is connected.

For this I vote for the maintain of these sfunctionalities.

please dont change

 

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The problem is so many devices now use this as a basis of operaiton - to remove this capability will create issues - don't think it should be removed.

I would rather see a better implementation of the online status indicator INGAME!

 

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Sassy - " If I set show me offline, them i'm blinking well offline to all intents." Totally agree, glad you put it in more erm polite terms than I would =^^= I heard a rather throw away remark to the effect that it would be excessive backend load but...no, unless a lot more detail is released, having that LSL call return what a users privacy preferences are set to does not sound like a system breaker.

Of course this still leaves a users online status visible to anyone in the same group, which is a whole other kettle of swimmy things, but the fact remains that thats a manual check. Adjust the LSL response to reflect a users choice and no content gets broken.

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What about bots?

How can I check that a bot is online before sending a support group invite from a script inside the box of a customers newly purchased product?

 

Also what about notecard despensers that I have made that send a help card to the person based on the viewer they are using?

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I use SLON  works when friends list does not,. in my opinion as long as it does not show the location of the avatars in there I see no problem, if SLON and other devices are banned , will not be long before someone makes an on line indicator that does show the location of avatars listed in it, so please keep SLON,. as  the useful tool it is  when friends list is not working.

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That"s a shame suppress this possibility, i only can see when my partner come online with a such sript like this, she come at different moment, then i can't stay all the day long behind my computer to wait her

That's a kind of dictature from a minority

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When I found out that LL is thinking of taking away the ability to see when our friends and aquaintences are online, I was shocked. This is a service that I have come to greatly depend upon. I work from home and when I'm not on SL il gives me the ability to see if someone I have told I'd catch up with later or the next day comes on, I can log in and meet them. It also helps me to track my time on SL, which to my other family members is important. I have grown to count on this type of service and feel that not being able to do so is an infringement of our inworld and real world freedom. I have spent literally thousands of dollars on this avie and her inworld life is very important to me. Having information when someone is online provides a "safer" SL and helps me to know in many ways who is trustworthy and who is not. I believe that by taking the scripting ability to see who is and who is not online, and when they are online infringes upon my rights as a user of SL. I have thorougly enjoyed being able to have the knowledge I do and it's convenience. I know their are some who do not want this feature and I'm sure it's because they live a duplicitous life on SL, using alts for malicious reasons, of course these people will object. Being able to see what someone may be up to on an alt, is a protective feature and helps to protect ones emotions and relationships from deceptive and malicious people. I'm a very smart woman and long before I had the ability to see when someone was or was not online, I was able to figure out alts. Having the ability to see when they do come and go, is a good confirmation and has saved me from several relationships that would have been emotionally harmful to me. I feel that LL needs to take this into consideration. Having this ability is more of a "SAFETY:" net than anything else. Thank you for considering what I'm saying. Alexxis Foxdale

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Ok.. I am not a developer. Not a major builder. I am just a hack scripter and maker of tats. And I am not prepared like those of you that do this large scale to resort to having to log on to a toally seperate grid in order to keep my simple designs affordable and still quality.  I need those temp textures accessable in my normal viewer. On my normal grid. If I have to pass on the cost of 20+ uploads while I try to get a single image right for a tat then I am out of business. Period.

I also rely on the ability to see when people are online. I have used various quality notifiers so I can make deliveries without losing items. They are investments I paid for and thay work well. They are not an invasion of privacy in any way. Since I could friend every customer and then simply log on to my Second Life and see which of my friends are online. Breaking all these scripts thatpeople worked hard to develope and others like myself have paid for is not only dumb. But any claim that it is protecting privacy is false since anyone that is worried can select to not have status reported or be locateable in search.

And I already lose many of my purchases and prize deliveries that supposedly are delivered yet never show up in inventory because of marketplace delays in delivery till I am offline then they try to deliver after I get capped. And 4 of 5 times I end up never getting a replacement.

I have tried almost every viewer out there that has an OS X Lion capability. And will continue to try them and use whichever version of whichever viewer is most stable and meets my needs. Regretably so far the LL viewers have almost always been least able to meet my needs.

Instead of repeatedly trying to break move and more features of SL that WORK and make my time here enjoyable. It would be nice just once to see LL actually address major issues that ARE clearly broken and widely known to need a fix (I speak now about ongoing chat lag and dropped chat and chat corruption issues as well as the marketplace delivery issues mentioned above) I am just a simple resident. Not a noob, as I been working on this Second Life for over two years. But I am really getting depressed at the insistance in fixing things that are not broken and breaking them.

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This policy change has been badly thought out as to its ramifications and it is likely to affect all kinds of things - I find it extremely useful for perfectly legitimate reasons for example to know when somebody comes onlinje such as my partner or somebody I've bought something from I have a problem with.

Will it also kill radar in SL?  What about being able to see people via the Map?

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I am sick and tired of all take and no give from Linden Labs.  This is one premium account member that is fed up with the support I get from them, the quality of the stuff they put out (i.e: their viewers), and the changes they've made inworld to date ~ many of my scripts/products I've purchased, don't work anymore.  Take a look around Mr. Linden - THERE IS TONS OF :LAND FOR SALE THROUGHOUT SECOND LIFE!  WHY IS THAT DO YOU THINK?

Because people are leaving Second Life by leaps and bounds.  This will be my last year as a paying premium account holder if you force me to use your second rate piece of #%$^^#@! viewer and you continue to discourage free enterprise and an open-source environment.  Everything you have done has been counterproductive and ultimately is contributing to your own demise.

Perhaps you should take a few cues from the likes of Coca-Cola (and what happend when they introduced "the new coke") and Wendy's Restaurants (who decided to cut costs and buy inferior products as soon as Dave Thomas died - keeping pricing the same and thereby increasing profit margins.  Unfortunately for them, they lost two thirds of their customer base - loyal customers who were used to a premium product).  This is what you will do... lose an already eroding customer base if you decide to move forward with these changes.

 

This is a sad day in Second Life.  I urge you to reconsider these plans - fire the person or persons who suggested it.  Look back at the changes you've made so far and see if you can correlate a decline in membership and land holdings.  Second Life is NOTHING without it's members and if you chase them all off, there will be nothing left.

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It seems Linden Labs wants to turn off all scripting ability to look up online status of Second Life users. I strongly oppose this as it will break a lot of features for me that help me enjoy Second Life

 

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:


Sassy Romano wrote:

It doesn't need a new function.  If I set offline status in my viewer, the back end should then do the look up and see if a) i'm online and if b) i've set show offline.

OR... the bit in the back end that stores the online/offline data flag, is actually set by the viewer choice.  If I set show me offline, them i'm blinking well offline to all intents.

This remains a back end issue, not a script one.  I don't need to be granting permission to anything this way, *I* have already made my choice by the viewer setting.

Since these functions run on a timer, there will have to be constant checking since for some reason you can decide to change your personal setting. A script not runnig or not executing a command because it doesn't have permission, sounds more reasonable to me. All scripts run on the "back end", the server that is.

Btw, if you set your status to offline, you'll show offline to a whole lot more than only some distant online checking script.

No there won't. 

and yes that's exactly my point, when set to show offline, it SHOULD show offline, to everything, groups, the lot.  But at present it doesn't, ergo LL have totally got this out of context.

If it's that hard to return the correct chosen offline status by llRequestAgentData() then LL have something very wrong in the back end infrastructure since so many other methods are already getting online/offline status.

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Alexxis Foxdale wrote:

 I believe that by taking the scripting ability to see who is and who is not online, and when they are online infringes upon my rights as a user of SL. I have thorougly enjoyed being able to have the knowledge I do and it's convenience. I know their are some who do not want this feature and I'm sure it's because they live a duplicitous life on SL, using alts for malicious reasons, of course these people will object. Being able to see what someone may be up to on an alt, is a protective feature and helps to protect ones emotions and relationships from deceptive and malicious people. I'm a very smart woman and long before I had the ability to see when someone was or was not online, I was able to figure out alts. Having the ability to see when they do come and go, is a good confirmation and has saved me from several relationships that would have been emotionally harmful to me. I feel that LL needs to take this into consideration. Having this ability is more of a "SAFETY:" net than anything else. Thank you for considering what I'm saying. Alexxis Foxdale

 

Unfortunately, it feels that the reasons quoted here are pretty much inverse stalking and it's exactly for these sort of reasons that LL are saying they want to give users their privacy!

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Sassy Romano wrote:

No there won't. 

I really don't understand what you mean by this...

 


and yes that's exactly my point, when set to show offline, it SHOULD show offline, to everything, groups, the lot.  But at present it doesn't, ergo LL have totally got this out of context.

To hide your status in the group I think you can simply hide the group, it's a clumsy workaround, but a workaround nonetheless. This has got nothing to do with the issue with the ll function. I really hope the group "back door" is closed though, it shouldn't be hard to implement.

 


If it's that hard to return the correct chosen offline status by llRequestAgentData() then LL have something very wrong in the back end infrastructure since so many other methods are already getting online/offline status.

It's not hard at all I think, but it would require constant checks. How else will the script know you changed your settings?

 

 

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There are many things in SL that shows someone is online and so does help me as i do have two accounts. So am i to double log and just have an account afk? Also how i would shop for things i see i will edit them. Shows the maker of that object and there profile.. and shows if there on line or not. So are we removing that little green text that shows there online.. or are we just going to remove the whole profile off of that object.. if so... guess i can buy that.. being i cant see (as most makers list there store in there profile). Every think is sl you can edit and see profiles and there being on or offline. Yes I do have somthing that shows my other accounts friends online and log off one to the other accont. Guess now i have to disclose my Alt to all that my friends. Seems this way im forced to. So much for my privacy.

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I see what you're getting at.

I don't know enough to be sure of what Oz thinks is different and wrong, and why, but past experience leaves me with a suspicion that he doesn't know what he is talking about, when it comes to how TPV features work. It may be an unfair opinion, but his performance on the sound recording doesn't inspire confidence. 

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Why? would appear to me an attack from LL on inworld stores... that seems to be the 'standardization' they are trying to acheive, I know this 'enhancement' seems to have caused an uproar in the circles I travel in inside SL.... Appears its a first strike against a whole myriad of things that are in SL.

 

Personally I strongly oppose this change as ill tempered, hostile, and not well thought out.

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Alexxis Foxdale wrote:

When I found out that LL is thinking of taking away the ability to see when our friends and aquaintences are online, I was shocked. 

 

They're not.   What they're doing is taking away the ability, by script, to see if people are online who are either:

a) Not on your friends list and who have chosen to have their online status shown only to people on their friends list

or b) On your friends list but hiding their online status from you.

That's not the worry.  

The worry is what this change will do to things like vendors and subscribeomatics and so on, which need to check if people are online before trying to deliver items to them (there are other, equally important, things that will get broken, but those are the two that worry me most).

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Honestly, I still haven't been in a situation where I can listen to that audio, so I really have to take the word of those who've heard it.  So thanks for that reading.

When I first read reports of the meeting -- specifically the plan to break all llRequestAgentData() content --  I was guessing it was some server devs playing a "how gullible are you?" trick on the viewer guys; it all seemed so crazy.  Apparently not, and that's a little scary:  What server dev would go along with this insanity? and who was so out-of-touch as to dream it up in the first place?

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Freya Mokusei wrote:


Rayne Keynes wrote:

People build things like online indicators to be used in clubs, land rental etc so that the OWNER of that business can indicate whether certain employees, dancers, customer service etc, are online or not,... and as such available to answer questions, help with issues etc,... by forcing the people who design these things to give/sell the script full perm so it can be copied into a script owned by/ created by the recipient, your effectively killing that business.

Easy solution to this particular problem. Have a full perm script that is copied, which only includes the online/offline detection code. Enough of those are freebies that the bits given away in there won't hurt your IP. The small full-perm script then sends the online/offline detection to the limited permission, still secure, main script.

Unfortunately this has nothing to do with IP. The online/offline detection is whats being broken.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Alexxis Foxdale wrote:

When I found out that LL is thinking of taking away the ability to see when our friends and aquaintences are online, I was shocked. 

 

They're not.   What they're doing is taking away the ability, by script, to see if people are online who are either:

a) Not on your friends list and who have chosen to have their online status shown only to people on their friends list

or b) On your friends list but hiding their online status from you.

That's not the worry.  

The worry is what this change will do to things like vendors and subscribeomatics and so on, which need to check if people are online before trying to deliver items to them (there are other, equally important, things that will get broken, but those are the two that worry me most).

There is a way in which "the ability to see when our friends and aquaintences are online" would be lost with this change, in that it removes a common means of getting asynchronous notification of the online status of friends, often through llEmail.  

Technically, you'd still have the ability to see, but wouldn't know to look.

Some of that particular functionality could be replicated, in theory, through a hideous kludge of webpage scraping -- and a correspondingly huge increase in refresh hits to users' dashboards.  

(If the presence system is stressed now, oh well, instead of fixing it, spread it to the webservers.)

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