Mesh: Love, Hate, or Don't Care?

[Ceka Cianci]

i don't know if it will be that extreme..prims have lasted through the whole sculptie phase..

i don't think the majority of sl are builders..i think they are creative..but i think mesh may only hit part of the market..i don't see it overtaking..there will always be prim and sculpt builds and now mesh..

mesh will only be an advantage on prim cost if the one making the mesh knows how to do that..

otherwise mesh could end up costing more  allowance than the others..

we have 64m prims now..and we can twist and shape them without them reverting..so these megas are different than the megas in the past..

people that wanted to learn sculpties learned sculpties..it didn't send builders away..there were some great builds prim builds still going on..sculpts helped to add some nice things we couldn't get from a prim..once the rush to making everything sculpts died down..

i think we will see the same thing with mesh..

the biggest markets i see being hit with mesh is clothes and things surrounding the avatars where sculpts really made their biggest impact..i think in the end mesh will help to enhance the others..i don't think mesh is going to overtake them..because they are all options...

what may happen is this..you may see people investing time in learning mesh rather than sculpts..but i don't see people  turning away from the prim tools and not learning how to twist up something when the creative feel hits them..

there are a lot of people out there that just don't build...

and then there are times when those that do just don't feel like it..

 

like me for instance..i just bought this prefab yesterday and love it =)

i wish i could just link the images  but these forums won't let us..so here is the link..

it's a beautiful home and looks exactly the same in my sim as it does in those pictures as far as real looking..it just amazed me..

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Original-Beachfront-residence-by-Abiss-furnished-Mature-1000-animations/2927439

 

this is at a time when sl was really becoming boring to me..i had seen this home and my eyes lit up ..then later found a nice barn for some riding horses that i decided to go out and get after getting the house..

mainly because i felt really good having a home that really felt like a home in sl..

i think builders want to build... merchants want to sell...and residents that just want to be residents want to live a nice second life with a nice piece of land..get settled and moved in to where they can feel right at home..

i think if people can make a better home or wheel or fire or whatever..more power to them..i only see it as a closer step to making my home feel more like one that i would never want to leave =)

i think there are a lot of people that feel that way..they just want their niche whatever that may be and get in it and escape for a little while..

it's all about being able to be distracted from RL..something everyone needs at some point =)

 

 

[madman626 Fall]

I have this to say to you  this been the best post in this discussion.

[Sy Beck]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

i don't know if it will be that extreme..prims have lasted through the whole sculptie phase..

i don't think the majority of sl are builders..i think they are creative..but i think mesh may only hit part of the market..i don't see it overtaking..there will always be prim and sculpt builds and now mesh..

mesh will only be an advantage on prim cost if the one making the mesh knows how to do that..

otherwise mesh could end up costing more  allowance than the others..

we have 64m prims now..and we can twist and shape them without them reverting..so these megas are different than the megas in the past..

people that wanted to learn sculpties learned sculpties..it didn't send builders away..there were some great builds prim builds still going on..sculpts helped to add some nice things we couldn't get from a prim..once the rush to making everything sculpts died down..

i think we will see the same thing with mesh..

the biggest markets i see being hit with mesh is clothes and things surrounding the avatars where sculpts really made their biggest impact..i think in the end mesh will help to enhance the others..i don't think mesh is going to overtake them..because they are all options...

what may happen is this..you may see people investing time in learning mesh rather than sculpts..but i don't see people  turning away from the prim tools and not learning how to twist up something when the creative feel hits them..

there are a lot of people out there that just don't build...

and then there are times when those that do just don't feel like it..

 

like me for instance..i just bought this prefab yesterday and love it =)

i wish i could just link the images  but these forums won't let us..so here is the link..

it's a beautiful home and looks exactly the same in my sim as it does in those pictures as far as real looking..it just amazed me..

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Original-Beachfront-residence-by-Abiss-furnished-Mature-1000-animations/2927439

 

this is at a time when sl was really becoming boring to me..i had seen this home and my eyes lit up ..then later found a nice barn for some riding horses that i decided to go out and get after getting the house..

mainly because i felt really good having a home that really felt like a home in sl..

i think builders want to build... merchants want to sell...and residents that just want to be residents want to live a nice second life with a nice piece of land..get settled and moved in to where they can feel right at home..

i think if people can make a better home or wheel or fire or whatever..more power to them..i only see it as a closer step to making my home feel more like one that i would never want to leave =)

i think there are a lot of people that feel that way..they just want their niche whatever that may be and get in it and escape for a little while..

it's all about being able to be distracted from RL..something everyone needs at some point =)

 

 

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This is an amazing coincidence.  I saw this house the other day and was totally blown away and only this morning I was talking to someone about it and was about to PM them with a link.  Like you I just thought it was amazing.  The texturing inside and the detail are something to applaud and emulate.

[Seven Overdrive]

That build you showed in the link is gorgeous and is the type of quality we need to see more of in SL.  

[Ceka Cianci]

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Sy Beck wrote:

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This is an amazing coincidence.  I saw this house the other day and was totally blown away and only this morning I was talking to someone about it and was about to PM them with a link.  Like you I just thought it was amazing.  The texturing inside and the detail are something to applaud and emulate.

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oh it's amazing really..they have been around for awhile..a good bit before sl really ever had shadows..

i had a friend that first showed me their work back in i wanna say 2008..they had some amazing sky boxes..

the first time i had seen  his place..i was in awe and just stood there looking at it..then he would change the views in the window and i just fell in love with their work..i said to him..this isn't just good..i said i can't really express what it is..

he said..are you thinking of the words trend setting?

i said YES THATS IT!! that describes it perfectly..it's tend setting!!

Aaanyways....a couple of weeks ago i had decided maybe getting another sim would wake me from this rut i am in with SL..

bleh..i terrained for a little bit..even tried doing some older things that i missed..but nothing really seemed to wake me up..

i had bought probably 5 other houses in the past week...this is after designing a few myself that just didn't feel right..

then yesterday i decided ..ok one more try..i saw this one and one more of theirs that it came down to..the other was a bit smaller but still just as amazing ..but this one i really loved..so i got it..

and i'm having fun just seeing what all it can do..

then after..i found a very nice barn with a lot of stables in it..so now i am making riding paths on my sim..a nice long road from my beach house to my barn in the far north west corner..

the pool really grabs me a lot..it's really hard to find something with water that just feels real..at night i just want to stare at it..it has that night time glittering reflection of light going on..

omg then the shower in the house..bleh i better stop or i won't be able to..it's just an amazing build..

and whats really nice is you don't have to be in ultra to get that ultra high end computer settings feel..

it's all the texturing that does that for you..

it's some of the best texturing  with the mix of light and shadow in just about ever meter of it...

can't say enough about how much this house makes me smile and feel relaxed and good inside sl..

if mesh helps to bring more of a feeling like this to sl..i'll love it..

this house is not mesh..it's prim and sculptie..the only thing mesh on it is the dock on the other side of the house..which i have going out into the ocean..

[Ceka Cianci]

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Seven Overdrive wrote:

That build you showed in the link is gorgeous and is the type of quality we need to see more of in SL.  

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oh i agree it is nice to see quality on that level..

i will say this though..i don't know if i would go walking in there with my settings on ultra and and everything on high..lol

i had to drop down my settings a lot..mainly because i'm due for a new system..but the nice thing is..you don't need them that high to enjoy the quality..it's built into the house and not a system setting..so you can turn them way down and still enjoy that high quality feeling..=)

that to me is all around quality built for more than just the high end system users..=)

[Venus Petrov]

I am excited about the possibilities of mesh.  I think some creators jumped into mesh before they mastered it, really, but I appreciate that they are eager to get content out there.

I have some well made mesh clothing and a fantastic mesh dining room set.  I have a couple of mesh hairs, too. 

More content creators will come up to speed with mesh and express their creativity (beyond sweater dresses, sweaters, loose-fitting pants).  Exciting!

[Koltari]

I really like the thought of mesh builds and plants thought I have only used a few so far they look great and are equal or less prims then what I would have gotten before.

As for clothes and hair. I have not gotten any. Did I understand it right that you have to choose a preset shape if you do? I gone to a lot of trouble to make my avatar look like she does ( a bit more realistic then most) and I wouldn't want to have any other shape :matte-motes-bored:

Though having clothes move with the body is great but not at that expense.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Koltari wrote:

I really like the thought of mesh builds and plants thought I have only used a few so far they look great and are equal or less prims then what I would have gotten before.

As for clothes and hair. I have not gotten any. Did I understand it right that you have to choose a preset shape if you do? I gone to a lot of trouble to make my avatar look like she does ( a bit more realistic then most) and I wouldn't want to have any other shape :matte-motes-bored:

Though having clothes move with the body is great but not at that expense.

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i've had mesh clothes fit on most of my shapes..i have some that are not as well proportioned as others..

the nice thing about mesh clothes is most creators realize that it is best to have demos for their work to try before people buy..

sometimes you need to use an alpha layer if there is a little skin showing..but most give you more than one size of the same thing..what is nice is now we can have tight or loose fitting jeans..especially on the waistband or hips..a lot of my jean shorts fit like this in rl..not real loose or anything..but not painted on either hehehe

i haven't seen too much that hasn't fit really..but there are some things that just won't without a shape change..and those i just don't buy i guess..so i move on to the next thing..it happens in rl also..sometimes they just don't make things small enough for me lol

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Do dwarfs, giants, crippled, or otherwise genetically abnormal sizes have to conform to the standard human proportions? What about the normals with the extra long limbs, can they not wish to be represented here? What if, say, they have short torsos or long necks, where are the realistic proportion guides for them?

Look closely, this is a video game no matter how much you try to gloss it over, give the abnormals a chance. 

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People love to assign agenda's to what I say...

/sigh.

If you want standard sizes, you need a standard. That is all. I was addressing the point I replied to, not all kinds of other random things people want to try and presume on me.

And Qarl's deformer will make much of it uneeded anyway...

 

[Sy Beck]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

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Seven Overdrive wrote:

That build you showed in the link is gorgeous and is the type of quality we need to see more of in SL.  

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oh i agree it is nice to see quality on that level..

i will say this though..i don't know if i would go walking in there with my settings on ultra and and everything on high..lol

i had to drop down my settings a lot..mainly because i'm due for a new system..but the nice thing is..you don't need them that high to enjoy the quality..it's built into the house and not a system setting..so you can turn them way down and still enjoy that high quality feeling..=)

that to me is all around quality built for more than just the high end system users..=)

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I am on ultra settings and like you I could stare at the pool for ages and that bathroom is just the most awesomely well done piece of interior texturing I think I've seen in SL.  I should point out that I'm in no way connected with the creators, don't even own the house, just wanted to say how breathtaking it is, especially at night.

[Charolotte Caxton]

I'm sorry, Pussycat, I forgot to add the smileys, I don't think you have an agenda and I think proportions are a good thing

[Ceka Cianci]

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Sy Beck wrote:

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

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Seven Overdrive wrote:

That build you showed in the link is gorgeous and is the type of quality we need to see more of in SL.  

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oh i agree it is nice to see quality on that level..

i will say this though..i don't know if i would go walking in there with my settings on ultra and and everything on high..lol

i had to drop down my settings a lot..mainly because i'm due for a new system..but the nice thing is..you don't need them that high to enjoy the quality..it's built into the house and not a system setting..so you can turn them way down and still enjoy that high quality feeling..=)

that to me is all around quality built for more than just the high end system users..=)

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I am on ultra settings and like you I could stare at the pool for ages and that bathroom is just the most awesomely well done piece of interior texturing I think I've seen in SL.  I should point out that I'm in no way connected with the creators, don't even own the house, just wanted to say how breathtaking it is, especially at night.

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ya i don't know them from adam myself either..

i only know of their work..

i was just on the market again looking at other barns that i could maybe add to my existing one..

i'm just gonna say this .. there are some really talented creators in world..these are places you just have to visit inworld to really believe them..i think that is the good part..

we see these realistic looking images on the market..then have to see for ourselves just how true to image they are..when they are what we see..i think we get excited about inworld again..well i do anyways..

this barn i am looking at right now..it's called the old barn..it's too nice  for my other barn..so the other barn is gonna have to go lol

i need to get off the market before my husband really freaks out on how much i have spent this past week..

i see these amazing builds and just have to get them lol

 

 

[Clarissa Lowell]

Yeah I think like Amethyst said there will come a time the average user feels left out. But it seems like more and more of the 'average users' do not want to build anyway. They want to shop and have fun. 

The average user will catch up once modeling programs become lots easier and cheaper and more widely used even in schools, art classes for example. By that time the modeling in virtual worlds or computer games will be so detailed blades of grass will sway individually in the wind instead of grass being one flat texture on the ground. And I don't mean sculpty prims either. 

You will be able to see each scale on a fish swimming in water that shows every bubble and crest of each wave. 3D foam on the ocean. By then the average user will know their way around a basic intuitive WYSIWYG modeling and painting program. Then they can build their homemade gazebo again. 

We're just here in the bumpy part of the ride.

[Trybil Timeless]

For me, the problem with mesh is it runs counter to what (used to) make SL great:  user made content.

Sure, mesh is still user made content, but it is done out-of-world, with specialty tools and a high barrier to entry in terms of expertise and learning curve. And no, I don't see the just wait for 3D modelling tools to become easy to use and common place to be a good answer. 

A much better approach would have been to make better in-world building tools, prim based and other.  There are a ton of ways, many already mentioned in this thread, that could be done to enhance the enjoyment and quality of in-world building.  SL *itself* should have become the way to make 3D modelling tools easier to use and commonplace.  Instead they punted and gave the ball to outsiders.

Maybe the comments are true about "most people don't want to build, they just want to shop", but with mesh this is a tautology.

 

[Ernst Maven]

MESH SUCKS, 'cause rigged mesh is not modifiable!!!

[Jessicka Graves]

Don't care, sculpties seem to be pulled off better than mesh, because they simply work, and aren't as fussy. They seem to be on par with one another in terms of visual appeal, and sculpties seem to be easier to push out, so...No to mesh. Let the people who have the skills and technology over charge buyers of whatever they wanna make

[Pamela Galli]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

 

i wish i could just link the images  but these forums won't let us..so here is the link..

it's a beautiful home and looks exactly the same in my sim as it does in those pictures as far as real looking..it just amazed me..

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Original-Beachfront-residence-by-Abiss-furnished-Mature-1000-animations/2927439

 

this is at a time when sl was really becoming boring to me..i had seen this home and my eyes lit up ..then later found a nice barn for some riding horses that i decided to go out and get after getting the house..

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Two things about this spectacularly beautiful home:  1) The dock is the only mesh part. Which only makes it more incredible. 

 

2) Someone ripped it and put it up for sale on the marketplace the other day, complete with the same pictures!  It made me so mad I could spit.

[Liz Venenbaum]

Being a builder, who hasn't released anything yet, but being heavily excited about mesh technology,  I want to throw my 2 cents here

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

The real mesh elephant in the room is this.  Mesh is going to squash a lot of the joy of creativity for the average casual user of SL.  People now will do small building projects, like making a gazebo for their garden or simple house to live in, for the simple pleasure of saying 'I made that' or because they don't want to spend the lindens to buy it. Some have created whole sims this way. Sure its not the greatest but it satisfies them.  But as time goes on, creating things for SL will become more and more something the average casual user can't do because they don't have the time or inclination to want to learn complicated software or the money to invest in it or the relatively high cost of bringing it into SL.  Their small prim built projects will look a LOT more primitive compared to what you can buy from the pros and they will lose the the desire to create things themselves.  Yes there will be more and more mesh building 'kits' but anything you make from them won't give you the small ego boost of having your name shown as the creator.

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While you might be right, this isn't really a viable argument, since it mainly comes down to: "Because a minority wants to draw a small ego boost from their own simple creations, SL must not become more beautiful for the majority who wants it to!" I'm personally very interested in SL attracting a larger user base, which is only possible if it becomes comparibly visually attracting to current computer games on the one hand, and more performant, viewer- and server-sided on the other... I see huge chances for SL in attracting those users from online games, which have an exploding userbase, compared to SL, which is pretty much stagnant, if not declining, who are not satisfied with the static gameplay mechanics offered there and are looking to have extended possibilities to form the world they're playing in....

Mesh alone is certainly not enough to get SL there, but it is a major step on the path...

 I have seen a few full mesh sims pop up lately, and I'm quite pleased with how they perform, even with shadows enabled, on my PC, which used to be a mid-range gaming system more than two years ago...

[Liz Venenbaum]

Why is impossible to use quotes from different posts here?

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

it's a beautiful home and looks exactly the same in my sim as it does in those pictures as far as real looking..it just amazed me..

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Original-Beachfront-residence-by-Abiss-furnished-Mature-1000-animations/2927439

 

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While this is certainly a great example of a traditional prim building, it's a bad choice for the prim vs. mesh discussion. With all the comprehensive baked lights and shadows, it is very likely this is not an inworld building, but done in an external 3D application, 3DStudio Max with PrimComposer, I suspect. So the creator already has a major part of the knowledge needed to work with it, and would probably gladly made it as a mesh build, if the technology would have been available back when he released it, for improved display performance and reduced prim count....

[Liz Venenbaum]

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Clarissa Lowell wrote:

The average user will catch up once modeling programs become lots easier and cheaper and more widely used even in schools, art classes for example. By that time the modeling in virtual worlds or computer games will be so detailed blades of grass will sway individually in the wind instead of grass being one flat texture on the ground. And I don't mean sculpty prims either. 

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You seem to be a little behind the visual standards of today's computer games

http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/gallery_files/obliv32B.jpg

It *does* sway in the wind, and yes, it was released 5 years ago, so you can expect even more in a state of art game... Problem is, it requires a very tight integration between the game engine and video hardware, so this probably can't be achieved by mesh technology alone, but would need LL to extend the current very basic vegetation system used in the viewer... Imprudence once offered an option to have animate standard trees, I don't know why no current viewer seems to implement it anymore

[Ceka Cianci]

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Liz Venenbaum wrote:

Why is impossible to use quotes from different posts here?

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

it's a beautiful home and looks exactly the same in my sim as it does in those pictures as far as real looking..it just amazed me..

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Original-Beachfront-residence-by-Abiss-furnished-Mature-1000-animations/2927439

 

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While this is certainly a great example of a traditional prim building, it's a bad choice for the prim vs. mesh discussion. With all the comprehensive baked lights and shadows, it is very likely this is not an inworld building, but done in an external 3D application, 3DStudio Max with PrimComposer, I suspect. So the creator already has a major part of the knowledge needed to work with it, and would probably gladly made it as a mesh build, if the technology would have been available back when he released it, for improved display performance and reduced prim count....

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i wasn't referring it to that.. i usually build my own homes but just didn't feel like building one when i had gotten my sim.. and when i saw this home it sparked  something in me that took away the boredom i was feeling..

it was more or less in response to someone saying that since people won't be able to make mesh that they would be leaving the grid..my point was that  other builds can still add life to your sl..

and i'm sure the textures are baked outside of sl..just like all textures are created outside of sl in some program or another..

also i hope they do make a mesh version..i'm sure with their experience they would know what they are doing with mesh to make it an advantage to using mesh in a build like this..

the only thing is..can you change the texture on a mesh build like you can this one?? i would think you could..but i've only made sculpts myself..not any mesh imports to sl yet..

 

[Liz Venenbaum]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

and i'm sure the textures are baked outside of sl..just like all textures are created outside of sl in some program or another..

also i hope they do make a mesh version..i'm sure with their experience they would know what they are doing with mesh to make it an advantage to using mesh in a build like this..

 

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Well, my point was, that this house is not an inworld build at all... There has been a 3DS-MAx Plugin called PrimComposer around for a while, that allows to build with prims outside SL, use the enhanced texturing possibilites there, and then directly import it into SL as a linkset... I doubt it would be possible to create a similarly credible lighting with just inworld building tools and Photoshop...

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

the only thing is..can you change the texture on a mesh build like you can this one?? i would think you could..but i've only made sculpts myself..not any mesh imports to sl yet..

 

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Well, mesh is very powerful in terms of texturing, so in theory, you make a mesh that can use tiling textures just like a prim-build... Mesh- and prim-faces are treated equally by the viewer, so you can just drag a texture on a mesh like a prim face... In practice, since SL currently supports just a single texture per face, it would require the creator of such comprehensively shaded builds (regardless if mesh or prim) to supply a set of light- or shadowmaps you would have to overlay with your texture of choice in advance in Photoshop (or similar), to not lose the lighting...

So, in practice, a total work of art like that should best be kept as it is....

 

[Ceka Cianci]

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Liz Venenbaum wrote:

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

and i'm sure the textures are baked outside of sl..just like all textures are created outside of sl in some program or another..

also i hope they do make a mesh version..i'm sure with their experience they would know what they are doing with mesh to make it an advantage to using mesh in a build like this..

 

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Well, my point was, that this house is not an inworld build at all... There has been a 3DS-MAx Plugin called PrimComposer around for a while, that allows to build with prims outside SL, use the enhanced texturing possibilites there, and then directly import it into SL as a linkset... I doubt it would be possible to create a similarly credible lighting with just inworld building tools and Photoshop...

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

the only thing is..can you change the texture on a mesh build like you can this one?? i would think you could..but i've only made sculpts myself..not any mesh imports to sl yet..

 

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Well, mesh is very powerful in terms of texturing, so in theory, you make a mesh that can use tiling textures just like a prim-build... Mesh- and prim-faces are treated equally by the viewer, so you can just drag a texture on a mesh like a prim face... In practice, since SL currently supports just a single texture per face, it would require the creator of such comprehensively shaded builds (regardless if mesh or prim) to supply a set of light- or shadowmaps you would have to overlay with your texture of choice in advance in Photoshop (or similar), to not lose the lighting...

So, in practice, a total work of art like that should best be kept as it is....

 

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ya they give you a texture pack with it also..so you can change the textures which is nice..and their skyboxes..well i don't know if all do it..but some are scripted to where you can change the textures..

there are some textures you can change to what you want..but they recommend using their texture pack for the house and stuff..

i really love it..i had just gotten a barn also that is a really nice build that the person went all out on..and their builds really look very nice also with the texturing..this barn even has small dust specks in the air floating around like you would have in a real barn..it really is neat..

let me see if i can find the link..look at some of their places also..they have some really nice builds..i woudln't say as real looking as my house..but very close..i torn my other barn down that i had just gotten and replaced it with this one LOL

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/THE-OLD-BARN/241042

 

[ROB34466IIIa]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

 

Do you use mesh things?  If so, worn or rezzed items? 

 

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Yes. Wearing mesh avatar, shirt and pants. Hat and tie are prim-based. 

And I' m rather happy with it, as you can see.