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Mesh: Love, Hate, or Don't Care?


Pamela Galli
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Pamela Galli wrote:


Jenni Darkwatch wrote:

Most of what's on MP right now is crap. LI way too high, whole meshes practically uploaded straight from free modeling pages (the good majority of cars is straight from free mesh pages, though not all is). My bottom line: If I, as a totally
sucky
3D modeler, can create an object with lower LI or better looks, it's badly made.

For nonhuman avatars, mesh is a total god-sent. Have a look at the WaterHorse mesh deer avatar. There's simply _no_ non-mesh animal avi that moves better. Not a single one. And no full mesh animal avi that does, actually.

For building, the fact that it allows texturing parts separately AND that we can determine what an object looks like at lower LOD makes it superior to sculpts for a lot of things. Not for all - but for a lot.

Example #1: Mesh text board vs. regular text board. Regular text board has 1 prim per 10 chars. Mesh has 16 chars per "prim". Mesh wins.

Example #2: Building a 1LI water bucket. Sculpt has to use a baked texture. Mesh can have different textures for different parts, even animated water if desired. Mesh wins (and is less than 1LI anyway, whereas sculpts usually aren't).

The number one biggest pile of crap about mesh is this: To create mesh we pretty much have to use external tools. They're free, sure. But they're the effin worst piles of steaming software doo on the planet. Or at least in the top ten of the worst user interfaces, ever.

LOL!  It's true -- nothing has ever made me feel more painfully stupid than Blender.  But that is true of any 3D program I have tried. 

 

BTW:  Jenni made such an informative post in the mesh forum about how the two ways to count prims works, and how everyone can cut a LOT of prims on some types of objects, I put it on a page here

 

 

 

I read Jenni's post and everything I tried the trick on either increased the LI or had no effect at all.  Works if I link a few prim cubes together but didn't work for anything I have purchased.   And I agree... Blender is tough to learn.

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On a scale from love or hate, I'm between love, and don't care. I don't really have much experience with mesh, but I did recently buy a mesh hairstyle, and I think it's pretty cool. It doesn't really look very different from 'normal' hairstyles, but I do like the way it doesn't flow through my body, but rather, rests comfortably on my back.

On the other hand, whether script or mesh, I don't really care how the product was formed, as long as it looks good on me, I'm happy, so I'll still continue buying both, neither will I actively look for mesh products.

One thing that I don't like about mesh though, is when I'm having a one to one conversation with someone and the person is unable to see my head because they don't have a mesh-enabled viewer. I end up having to change hairstyles for that person.

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Haven't gotten into the hair yet...it still looks dated back a couple of years to me in terms of the texture :(  Clothing I can buy from certain stores, but not all styles...some fit different in the bust area then others, and I won't adjust my shape.  As far as furniture, have only tried yours, Pam, and love them :)

 

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I definitely love mesh.

At first I wasn't so sure about it, cause there wasn't much I knew (had quit SL for quite a while) about mesh. I felt it was going to be very difficult on designers AND customers to change shapes, find their ideal fit, etc etc...

But it seems like it's really big progress for SL. The mesh hair = AWESOME. Finally I don't have to cut parts out that go through my shoulders or through other parts of my body when I make pics. The fact that it moves with you while you're dancing is pretty awesome as well. I'm really glad you can add alpha's as well with FS tho, because otherwise you'd have to either pick hair or dress or shoes.

I've seen a lot of mesh only stores open and I'm pretty much a fan of what they create. Everyone keeps getting better at it, practice does make perfect. Sometimes I'm wrestling with dresses that don't hide some parts of the alpha, but that's ok, because I know they will get it perfect next time. 

I'm glad we have mesh now. :)

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:


Charolotte Caxton wrote:


Ossian wrote:


Deltango Vale wrote:

Charlotte, could you please list a few top-quality stores for mesh clothing? I'm willing to try some mesh clothes (I hate sculpty clothes).

Yes, I'd like to second that request. I'd also like to know about good mesh hair designers.

If it's really as good as you say, I'd rather be wearing it. Yours is the first enthusiastically positive comment I've heard.

Sure! 

Give me some time to pop around the grid and I will put together a little notecard of some of my faves
:)

 

Those are just a few of the many many places that have excellent mesh hair and clothing, rigged mesh being what seems to be the preferred description for clothes and hair that moves with you. 

 

Those shops are pricey. o.O

I'm already used to spending about 80% to half that per mesh item at the places I've been frequenting (170-250 or so). 

 

 

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Before coming to Second Life in 09' I was a heavy user of another 3D Chat program called IMVU...and on IMVU everything and I mean everything is created from mesh. So, I'm used to mesh I guess you could say, it's not some brand new thing I've never seen before, but something that's familiar.  

I really am loving what I've seen so far being created with mesh, though I think if hair creators could figure out how to mix flexi with mesh then I would be THRILLED. lol that would be fabulous! 

I think It's just another step for Second Life that's been needed for some time. :matte-motes-smile:

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I am firmly entrenched in the “I Don't Care” group.  I use Imprudence and all I see are odd shapes if I see it at all, few people are using it where I go so that keeps me in the I don't care group.  I do play with V3 a little, its looking better all the time, and from what little mesh I have tried in the way of demos has not impressed me, at all, I am not changing my shape to fit clothing, no.  Could be its still to new.  But my biggest problem with it is the cost, it is to expensive, maybe next year I'll take another look at mesh but for now its a no go for me.

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

My post wasn't just satire, there's a serious argument in it. LL could have added support for procedurally generated textures or even painting directly on objects. Many people have been asking for such features for years. Yet instead LL told us to buy Photoshop and upload images.

The situation with creating textures for SL is directly comparable to creating meshes. Photoshop is just as hard to use as a 3d modeling program. Yet nobody seems to have a problem with it.

Tell me about it. I am still learning photoshop. On my own. O the suckage.

I would love a program ANYwhere that would let me paint on a surface and be intuitive and visually based controls and WYSIWYG and all that.  But developers for VISUAL software seem to think like a 1952 computer. 

I am a visual learner, not an auditory one, visual and kinetic. I learn by being taught and mimicing during being taught and being corrected during being taught. On my own I am extremely slow.

I've been wanting a simple slider program for making stuff and a teacher since I joined SL, still haven't found either anywhere. It isn't LL it's just how people are. When people learn they don't want to share and whoever makes stuff doesn't get what it is like to use it.

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Pamela Galli wrote:


Clarissa Lowell wrote:

Who teaches how to make mesh stuff? What skills and what programs do you have to learn?

Clarissa, if you hang out in the mesh forum for a bit you can ask specific questions there and get some idea of who there makes tutorials about SL mesh -- Gaia Clary and Ashakayseyi Ra, for example, make excellent Blender tutorials.  (And I will just say I have never done anything harder in my life than learning to make mesh.)

Thank you.

I'm up for hard work, but I learn very slowly on my own. Something inside me resists it. I dislike nothing more intensely in learning, than plodding along and working hard only to find out I was wrong the whole way. Gah.

If I know I'm being led the right way I will work hard as anyone.

 

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Jennifer Boyle wrote:

I wish the SL clothing creator community would develop a standardized size system like we have in RL.  I think it would be simple:  just agree on a few standard avatar shapes that represent the sizes.

How about just standard sizes in a store meant for the shapes they also sell. That would be my idea if I made a store filled of mesh. I have other ideas too but NO SKILLZ lol.

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Don't care and leaning towards hate at this point because:

 

  • When the Lab updated the server code for mesh it really played hell with the physics. Combat games, sports games (like my beloved GOHA hockey), flight and sailing  were broken and there are still odd physics issues to this day. Also some recent changes to the server code has changed how prims are counted (one day my humble treehouse was 63, the next it jumped to over 400--needless to say my landlord wasn't thrilled) and several other oddities.
  • Inability of rigged mesh items to adapt to unique avatar shapes.
  • Many people still can't see mesh even using mesh enabled viewers.
  • Creating mesh items must be done in an complex, often times expensive, professional-grade external programs.
  • Rezzed mesh items' land impact can vary wildly depending on whether it's scripted, resized, etc.

 

All in all it just doesn't seem like a very friendly system for the average person and unless and until it becomes so, it won't be adopted as we've seen.

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I have mixed feelings about it.

At first I thought very cool because it was said it would (could) yield more efficient use of resources.

But it reminds me now of years ago when my company handed us all lap tops.  Before the roll out they told us it was going to make us all more productive.  We were all excited until we discovered that more productive also meant more work for us.

I am on the extreme end because any and all mesh viewers I have tried net a 75% drop in performance on my computer. 

Jo stated that the new system gained her around 1,000 prims. (Not meaning to pick on you Jo, just illustrating).  So now she will add 1000 more prims to her SIM.  What is the net gain as far as performance is concerned?

I would love for SL to look just as real or life like as RL.  That would be awesome.  How about prim penii that jiggled like the real thing.  After all, we do have breast physics now.

Maybe I wouldn't feel so ambivalent if Mesh ran smoothly on my computer.  But right now it is a negative factor for me.  Even if I upgraded my graphics card right now, what good is that if the processing power requirements continue to grow.  Do I need to buy a  $500 card to be prepared for what will be required a year from now?

 

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Jennifer Boyle wrote:

 

I wish the SL clothing creator community would develop a standardized size system like we have in RL.  I think it would be simple:  just agree on a few standard avatar shapes that represent the sizes.

This could be done if everyone made their shapes using proper proportions.

Mesh does -NOT- care about size. But it -DOES- care about proportions.

So if everyone used proper proportions, we could then make roughly 3 to 5 different bust and hip mesh settings, and call it a day - it would fit any avatar from 4-feet to 8-feet tall.

 That said, Qarl's deformer will make it care -less- about proportions as well, if the Lindens incorporate it.

 

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 Any standardized sizing they attempt to do with rigged mesh will only be appealing to those that don't mind if their shapes are altered to someone elses ideal.  SL is not RL and many people have very differing ideas of how a human body should look.  Of course maybe there is a niche market there to serve all the caricature human shapes out there.  I hope the deformer works well and happens soon.  I personally like mesh.  Just can't wear any of it yet.

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Seven Overdrive wrote:

 Any standardized sizing they attempt to do with rigged mesh will only be appealing to those that don't mind if their shapes are altered to someone elses ideal.

I noted proportion, not size.

These words are not synonyms.

As to proper human proportions, that is a matter of science, not opinion. To learn about the basics of anatomy, you can begin by learning about the Vitruvian Man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitruvian_Man

 Lets not turn this into yet another debate about avatar size.

My comment was limited to just responding to the point about standardized clothing sizes.

- if you wear any mesh, you will immediately discover that it scales to the avatar automatically. So there is no need for variety of scales to be made in mesh clothes. Only for a need for variety in proportion. and this only for hips, waist, bust, body fat.

Mesh clothes will auto scale of other aspects of proportion: arm and leg length, chest / shoulder width. Body thickness, height.

 

BUT, making "standard sizes" for the bust-waist-hips and fat only becomes viable when there is somewhere to root it - and the logical choice is for accurate to proportion, and then up/down within reason. 3 to 5 "sizes", actually proportions, with anatomical norm in the middle.

 

 

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Do dwarfs, giants, crippled, or otherwise genetically abnormal sizes have to conform to the standard human proportions? What about the normals with the extra long limbs, can they not wish to be represented here? What if, say, they have short torsos or long necks, where are the realistic proportion guides for them?

Look closely, this is a video game no matter how much you try to gloss it over, give the abnormals a chance. 

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Yes I understood you about proportion and that is what I meant.   There are wildly different variations in avatar proportions out there that make people feel like their avatars look good, even if some were made though the lens of a fun house mirror.  In a world like SL, proportion is most certainly a matter of personal opinion and taste.  Your world, your imagination, applies to avatars too.    

I did base my shape on a proportion chart used for drawing the male form, but customized it to suit my tastes and preferences.  I prefer a bubbled rear end, but so far, every pair of mesh pants or shorts I have tried have changed the appearance of my shape to be flat and uninteresting in the seat.  Same with hoodies I have tried.  I end up having toothpick arms with narrow shoulders or huge incredible hulk arms.  

I thought this was what SL was all about.   To express our uniqueness and creativity, not to conform to a standard set by a few designers.  Mesh just isn't that important to me, clothing wise, to have a shape I don't want to have.  I am happy to stick with sculpty enhanced clothes until the selection improves to accommodate more variations in avatar proportions, or we do get the derformer tool.

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I understand where people are coming from with mesh clothes not fully conforming to the avatar but I think there's a little too much focus on clothes. This whole avatar shape issue doesn't affect mesh buildings, mesh vehicles, mesh objects, mesh terrain, or non rigged mesh attachments what so ever.

There's a lot more you can make with mesh than just mini skirts. I think it's a bit silly for people to say they don't care for mesh and won't use it just because of problems with one of the many types of things you can make with it.

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Hear hear.

I don't care much about clothes in general and even if I did, there isn't anything mesh available in common day to day 1920s style and having a realistic scale and size avatar that does not look like giant barbie, it probably won't fit me for a while anyway.

Let's talk building!
THAT is what I want to do, if mesh brings me better looking houses for the same or fewer prims... I'll be rebuilding an entire city!

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I have mixed feelings about mesh. I see its benefits and am personally willing to learn what I need to learn to adapt.   Mesh is here and there is no question its the future, however its not yet and won't be for a while.

Personally I'm neutral so far on mesh i've seen.  Although I've looked and tried a lot on, I don't care for mesh clothing and hair.  Yes, hair doesn't flow through your avatar, but the textures aren't great, and the it looks like clumps of hair glued together when it moves not  individual strands.  I haven't seen any mesh clothing I like either with the exception of a few pencil skirts that are good replacements for system skirts.  But so far mesh cloths I've tried on look a bit dowdy on my avatar.  Skirts look and flow like they are made from very thin foam rubber rather than say a fine silk or even cotton.  Also, my avatar is proportioned correctly, even so,mesh all seems to make my avatar look too standardized to the designer's vision rather than my own for my tastes.  Yes, creators and technology will get better and better but so far I really haven't seen anything that makes me want to part with my lindens.

As far as houses, I've been a builder since my newb days and have never bought a house.  However, most people I am friends with use prefabs and like to personalize them a bit.  Just like RL they may buy a new house but then want to change the wallpaper or 'paint' colors.  They sometimes  add or remove walls and want ot make other minor changes too.  Some of the mods I see my friends doing are not easily done with mesh and some are impossible.  These folks know a bit of basic traditional building and how to change a texture on prim houses, but aren't really interested in building beyond the few simple things they have learned up to now.  So mesh houses are of no interest to them.

The real mesh elephant in the room is this.  Mesh is going to squash a lot of the joy of creativity for the average casual user of SL.  People now will do small building projects, like making a gazebo for their garden or simple house to live in, for the simple pleasure of saying 'I made that' or because they don't want to spend the lindens to buy it. Some have created whole sims this way. Sure its not the greatest but it satisfies them.  But as time goes on, creating things for SL will become more and more something the average casual user can't do because they don't have the time or inclination to want to learn complicated software or the money to invest in it or the relatively high cost of bringing it into SL.  Their small prim built projects will look a LOT more primitive compared to what you can buy from the pros and they will lose the the desire to create things themselves.  Yes there will be more and more mesh building 'kits' but anything you make from them won't give you the small ego boost of having your name shown as the creator.

I understand the benefits of mesh such as lower prim count and server efficiency etc. etc.  But does the average casual user (the large majority of who never come to this or any forum) who likes the little creative things they do now in SL care about that?  NO.  They are happy just to pay their tiers and have a bit of land to putter around on with the current abilities they have. This is what drew them to SL and keeps them here.  Shopping and clubbing and like activities get boring after while and more and more people will need to buy everything rather than make their own if they want their space to look good .  This will make SL more expensive for them.  Without the ability to make something that looks acceptable to themselves, we will lose these people at a higher rate than we do now.  More and more of these people will either leave virtual worlds all together or migrate to the open girds where there is no mesh and where they can still do as they always have. You may discount this all you want  or even say good riddence to people who 'won't' adapt, but a lot of people are thinking this way right now.  I've heard quite a number express this in world or they express how frustrated with the technical problems that mesh enabled servers have caused when they care nothing about mesh. You should care because these are the people with money to spend and are willing to do that on a wide variety of things.  A lot of the heart and soul of SL may disappear. 
Yes maybe they will be replaced by people who just don't care about  creativity, but if they don't, then a good many may be people who exist on freebies.  

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