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Mesh: Love, Hate, or Don't Care?


Pamela Galli
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As Pamela already mentioned there's the Mesh forum, also you could try joining the Mesh Volunteers group in SL, and there are some excellent tutorials available online from other SL creators.  As for software Blender seems to be a very popular choice simply because it's free (or as an alternative you could try Daz Studio Pro 4/Hexagon which are currently available for free from the Daz 3D site).

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Maelstrom Janus wrote:

I have no argument with anyone who thinks building outside sl using a mass of complex software and then paying to import the stuff they made is a way of being 'drawn into' SL ...my problem with mesh has always been - and its quite obvious - that while Lindens have promoted mesh it took away the onus on them to provide building software - even the lindens 'tutorial' on mesh was nothing more than a warning about copyright breaches - no advice on the software to use or how to go about making mesh based items ! It also caused a total stasis in inworld building with nothing new ( bar the introduction of 64 m prims as standard - still not big enough !) when we could be getting new methods of shaping and cutting prims, newly shaped prims etc.

Lindens should be providing the tools to build with in view of the fees they charge and they should be adding new features to those building systems to keep the art of inworld building alive and vibrant.

The introduction of mesh basically stopped any development with the inworld building system at all. And as a result in world building is becoming dull and repetitive.....

Mesh takes away the pleasure of inworld building and turns building into labouring over complex software only to then pay to import something you dont even know is going to look good once it arrives in world.

 

 

Interesting points you raise and not something I'd fully considered before Maelstrom.  I know there are some much vaunted "powerful creator tools" in the pipeline from LL, but I don't imagine for one moment that it would be an inworld mesh tool.

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Jenni Darkwatch wrote:

Most of what's on MP right now is crap. LI way too high, whole meshes practically uploaded straight from free modeling pages (the good majority of cars is straight from free mesh pages, though not all is). My bottom line: If I, as a totally
sucky
3D modeler, can create an object with lower LI or better looks, it's badly made.

For nonhuman avatars, mesh is a total god-sent. Have a look at the WaterHorse mesh deer avatar. There's simply _no_ non-mesh animal avi that moves better. Not a single one. And no full mesh animal avi that does, actually.

For building, the fact that it allows texturing parts separately AND that we can determine what an object looks like at lower LOD makes it superior to sculpts for a lot of things. Not for all - but for a lot.

Example #1: Mesh text board vs. regular text board. Regular text board has 1 prim per 10 chars. Mesh has 16 chars per "prim". Mesh wins.

Example #2: Building a 1LI water bucket. Sculpt has to use a baked texture. Mesh can have different textures for different parts, even animated water if desired. Mesh wins (and is less than 1LI anyway, whereas sculpts usually aren't).

The number one biggest pile of crap about mesh is this: To create mesh we pretty much have to use external tools. They're free, sure. But they're the effin worst piles of steaming software doo on the planet. Or at least in the top ten of the worst user interfaces, ever.

LOL!  It's true -- nothing has ever made me feel more painfully stupid than Blender.  But that is true of any 3D program I have tried. 

 

BTW:  Jenni made such an informative post in the mesh forum about how the two ways to count prims works, and how everyone can cut a LOT of prims on some types of objects, I put it on a page here http://lagalleriasl.blogspot.com/p/prims-land-impact-by-jenni-darkwatch.html

 

 

 

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Maelstrom Janus wrote:

I have no argument with anyone who thinks building outside sl using a mass of complex software and then paying to import the stuff they made is a way of being 'drawn into' SL ...my problem with mesh has always been - and its quite obvious - that while Lindens have promoted mesh it took away the onus on them to provide building software - even the lindens 'tutorial' on mesh was nothing more than a warning about copyright breaches - no advice on the software to use or how to go about making mesh based items ! It also caused a total stasis in inworld building with nothing new ( bar the introduction of 64 m prims as standard - still not big enough !) when we could be getting new methods of shaping and cutting prims, newly shaped prims etc.

Lindens should be providing the tools to build with in view of the fees they charge and they should be adding new features to those building systems to keep the art of inworld building alive and vibrant.

The introduction of mesh basically stopped any development with the inworld building system at all. And as a result in world building is becoming dull and repetitive.....

Mesh takes away the pleasure of inworld building and turns building into labouring over complex software only to then pay to import something you dont even know is going to look good once it arrives in world.

 

 

I have to agree with you to some degree, since I've noticed a distinct decline in the time I spend inworld since the introduction of mesh.

As for wishing they'd improve the inworld building tools/prim options be careful what you wish for, since it's almost a certainty that if they did add additional prim options the use of them would most likely make them subject to the new method of calculating Land Impact, and I'm betting that under that system they wouldn't compare favourably to the mesh equivalent.

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Fluffy Sharkfin wrote:

Love it!

I think mesh is a huge step forward for content creators, and has done more to rekindled my own interest in creating content than any other addition to SL's creative toolset.

I think, with the exception of  mesh clothes (the benefits of which are pretty obvious to most people by now), it will take a little longer for non-creators to appreciate the significance of mesh simply because it's going to take time for enough high quality content to become available to them.

Someone asked me if everything I make will now be mesh. That is like asking a Lego builder if he is going to go back to using Tinkertoys.

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Maelstrom Janus wrote:

I have no argument with anyone who thinks building outside sl using a mass of complex software and then paying to import the stuff they made is a way of being 'drawn into' SL ...my problem with mesh has always been - and its quite obvious - that while Lindens have promoted mesh it took away the onus on them to provide building software - even the lindens 'tutorial' on mesh was nothing more than a warning about copyright breaches - no advice on the software to use or how to go about making mesh based items ! It also caused a total stasis in inworld building with nothing new ( bar the introduction of 64 m prims as standard - still not big enough !) when we could be getting new methods of shaping and cutting prims, newly shaped prims etc.

Lindens should be providing the tools to build with in view of the fees they charge and they should be adding new features to those building systems to keep the art of inworld building alive and vibrant.

The introduction of mesh basically stopped any development with the inworld building system at all. And as a result in world building is becoming dull and repetitive.....

Mesh takes away the pleasure of inworld building and turns building into labouring over complex software only to then pay to import something you dont even know is going to look good once it arrives in world.

 

 

 

I have no argument with anyone who thinks building outside sl using a mass of complex software and then paying to import the stuff they made is a way of being 'drawn into' SL ...my problem with textures has always been - and its quite obvious - that while Lindens have promoted textures it took away the onus on them to provide building software - even the lindens 'tutorial' on texturing was nothing more than a warning about copyright breaches - no advice on the software to use or how to go about making textures! It also caused a total stasis in inworld building with nothing new ( bar the introduction of 64 m prims as standard - still not big enough !) when we could be getting new methods of creating textures inworld.

Lindens should be providing the tools to build with in view of the fees they charge and they should be adding new features to those building systems to keep the art of inworld building alive and vibrant.

The introduction of texture uploads basically stopped any development with the inworld building system at all. And as a result in world building is becoming dull and repetitive.....

Textures takes away the pleasure of inworld building and turns building into labouring over complex software only to then pay to import something you dont even know is going to look good once it arrives in world.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Someone asked me if everything I make will now be mesh. That is like asking a Lego builder if he is going to go back to using Tinkertoys.


Indeed.  I've often tried to explain the difference between prims, sculpts and mesh by saying "if a prim is a block of lego and a sculpt is a spoonful of clay, a mesh is the equivalent of a fully equipped workshop, a plastic moulding facility and a warehouse full of raw materials!" :D

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Id be happy with 99% hollowing of prims, larger prims,  a new range of polygonal prims ( I think its barmy the maths you have to go through to get a correctly sized equilateral triangle) with a menu that correctly reflcts the sizes of the sides of the polygons and more ways of varying the angles.

I also think its quite ludicrous that tapering prims can only be achieved through a limited number of axes and a fixed set of angles. The torus can only be reduced to a cetain width if you look at its cross section and the supposed 95% hollowing of the tetrahedral prim is still nothing like 95% rendering it usless in the construction of  buildings especially in futuristic builds where a correctly hollowed tetrahedra would be a fantastic addition....

And when are we going to be able to add text to prims ?? I may not have the desire to become a whizz with the technology of mesh but I have the imagination to see new ideas and ways of making inworld building more interesting ...and that comes simply from the experience of inworld building and wanting to achieve more with a system whose basis I already know and understand and which I would be more useful to the majority of builders in sl...

 

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leliel Mirihi wrote:


Maelstrom Janus wrote:

I have no argument with anyone who thinks building outside sl using a mass of complex software and then paying to import the stuff they made is a way of being 'drawn into' SL ...my problem with mesh has always been - and its quite obvious - that while Lindens have promoted mesh it took away the onus on them to provide building software - even the lindens 'tutorial' on mesh was nothing more than a warning about copyright breaches - no advice on the software to use or how to go about making mesh based items ! It also caused a total stasis in inworld building with nothing new ( bar the introduction of 64 m prims as standard - still not big enough !) when we could be getting new methods of shaping and cutting prims, newly shaped prims etc.

Lindens should be providing the tools to build with in view of the fees they charge and they should be adding new features to those building systems to keep the art of inworld building alive and vibrant.

The introduction of mesh basically stopped any development with the inworld building system at all. And as a result in world building is becoming dull and repetitive.....

Mesh takes away the pleasure of inworld building and turns building into labouring over complex software only to then pay to import something you dont even know is going to look good once it arrives in world.

 

 

 

I have no argument with anyone who thinks building outside sl using a mass of complex software and then paying to import the stuff they made is a way of being 'drawn into' SL ...my problem with textures has always been - and its quite obvious - that while Lindens have promoted textures it took away the onus on them to provide building software - even the lindens 'tutorial' on texturing was nothing more than a warning about copyright breaches - no advice on the software to use or how to go about making textures! It also caused a total stasis in inworld building with nothing new ( bar the introduction of 64 m prims as standard - still not big enough !) when we could be getting new methods of creating textures inworld.

Lindens should be providing the tools to build with in view of the fees they charge and they should be adding new features to those building systems to keep the art of inworld building alive and vibrant.

The introduction of texture uploads basically stopped any development with the inworld building system at all. And as a result in world building is becoming dull and repetitive.....

Textures takes away the pleasure of inworld building and turns building into labouring over complex software only to then pay to import something you dont even know is going to look good once it arrives in world.

:smileyvery-happy:

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Fluffy Sharkfin wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:

Someone asked me if everything I make will now be mesh. That is like asking a Lego builder if he is going to go back to using Tinkertoys.


Indeed.  I've often tried to explain the difference between prims, sculpts and mesh by saying "if a prim is a block of lego and a sculpt is a spoonful of clay, a mesh is the equivalent of a fully equipped workshop, a plastic moulding facility and a warehouse full of raw materials!"
:D

Word.

Sadly it means people like me are unlikely to be able to create much with it - but that's ok because SL has too many merchants anyway, and I've always been more of a consumer of the goods.

I've got my RL for my income, and SL for my play.

I'll try to get something good out of the tools I've got - especially now that Hexagon is free from Daz3d. But I'll be lucky if I manage to figure out that workshop.

Someone has to buy all that leet and epix stuffz you pwniful merchants are making. Might as well be me... ;)

 

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I like mesh. Recently I placed a custom order and I love them.

web_4f0f3f7c4922b309f0000001.jpg

*The ones on the image are not textured properly yet.

 

I also learned things NOT to do with meshes. And that is linking meshes to sculptys. You can read what's been said about that in this thread: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Building-and-Texturing-Forum/Sculpted-and-Mesh-they-don-t-like-each-other-much/td-p/1377451

 

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Six Igaly wrote:

I like mesh. Recently I placed a custom order and I love them.

web_4f0f3f7c4922b309f0000001.jpg

*The ones on the image are not textured properly yet. 

Now if only that could get my car working next time I get tossed into no-script no-entry no-rez land... :)

(I thought as long as you stayed on a vehicle it would keep working, but there's one spot in zindra, Mosh I think, where as soon as I sail into the sim I stop dead in the water... and right on the other, far, side of that deadzone... a boat dock... o.O )

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My post wasn't just satire, there's a serious argument in it. LL could have added support for procedurally generated textures or even painting directly on objects. Many people have been asking for such features for years. Yet instead LL told us to buy Photoshop and upload images.

The situation with creating textures for SL is directly comparable to creating meshes. Photoshop is just as hard to use as a 3d modeling program. Yet nobody seems to have a problem with it.

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

The situation with creating textures for SL is directly comparable to creating meshes. Photoshop is just as hard to use as a 3d modeling program. Yet nobody seems to have a problem with it.

Funny you say that.

Photoshop = Maya in the way that Gimp = Blender.

I have a merchant friend who uses Gimp. I've tried... and can't, and am not alone in this. ;)

- since I know some folks would come back to your comment with 'just use GIMP' - which is easier said than done.

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Maelstrom Janus wrote:

 

I also think its quite ludicrous that tapering prims can only be achieved through a limited number of axes and a fixed set of angles.

That, as other suggestions, would require a fourth family of prims, next to normal prims, sculpts and mesh. The way the normal prims are constructed simply do not allow these alterations. It's not something that can simply be added. Chosen Few explained it thoroughly a couple of times, but the bottom line is prims are 2D shapes extruded along a path. I'm sure it's possible somehow to make prims that allow the things you suggest, but you can also just work with what's given to you. It has given me some headaches, but I've always been able to build anything I wanted with normal prims. Now with mesh available the bar is raised and I'm thankful for that.

As for the OP...

Love it. As I said I have always been able to build what I wanted, but mesh allows me to do it a lot easier and faster and a lot less agressive on the system. I've heard and read a lot of ignorance about mesh not being suited for buildings. It takes efford and time (most of the time will go into finding a good method and workflow), but it overshadows both prims and sculpts in any field (renderingcost, looks, landimpact etc...) in almost all cases.

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Maelstrom Janus wrote:

Unfortunately by saying what is and isnt possible you save the Lindens from having to do the job. The In world building system is static. If you want to create and import fair enough - I want to build inworld and see what Im making there

You can't expect Linden Lab to recreate or improve on software that's been in development for decades. Not if you don't want mandatory premium membership with annual costs in the 1000s of dollars.

There are a couple of inworld building tools for mesh available, nothing very fancy though, this as a sidenote.

As was said a couple of posts up, you don't seem to have this issue with textures. Where are the inworld texture creation tools? They aren't there and everybody is fine with that. Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro or GIMP will do a superior job to whatever LL can provide. You were comparing buying textures to creating objects, you should be comparing creating textures to creating objects and buying textures to buying building blocks. Just give it some time and you'll see plenty of building kits made out of mesh objects.

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:


leliel Mirihi wrote:

The situation with creating textures for SL is directly comparable to creating meshes. Photoshop is just as hard to use as a 3d modeling program. Yet nobody seems to have a problem with it.

Funny you say that.

Photoshop = Maya in the way that Gimp = Blender.

I have a merchant friend who uses Gimp. I've tried... and can't, and am not alone in this.
;)

- since I know some folks would come back to your comment with 'just use GIMP' - which is easier said than done.

A bit OT but I use Gimp (and Blender).  I finally bought CS5 (Photoshop) a few months ago, I like it fine, but I barely touch it.  For the things I do regularly, Gimp is just faster and easier.

 

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Pamela Galli wrote:

 

A bit OT but I use Gimp (and Blender).  I finally bought CS5 (Photoshop) a few months ago, I like it fine, but I barely touch it.  For the things I do regularly, Gimp is just faster and easier.

 

Personally I'd recommend plugging away with Photoshop, but then being a long-term user I guess I'm biased.  I do think that being comfortable/proficient with whatever application you're using is more relevant to creating good content than the pricetag/featurelist of the application itself (within reason of course, you can't exactly compare the old MS Paint with Photoshop). :)

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Pamela Galli wrote:

 

Do you use mesh things?  If so, worn or rezzed items? 

If you do not use mesh (worn or rezzed), what are your reason(s) (eg do not use mesh viewer, have heard bad things about mesh, other)?

 

i love it and i'm sure the longer its around i'll love it even more..

i have some rezzed and also things that are worn..

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I've worked too hard to get my butt shaped perfectly to wear what some creator's concept of the perfect ass is, therefore I probably won't be wearing much full mesh clothing until Qarl's Mesh Deformer is fully implemented and in regular use.  But I'm quite excited about being able to wear it once it is (and once there's more decent men's mesh clothing available).

I have started using some mesh furniture and absolutely love it.  Before this, I was heavily into sculpted furniture anyway... so, to me, it just seems like a natural progression.  So, in general, I'm all for it and look forward to a time when I purchase my first mesh house.

...Dres

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