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Martin Emerald

Progeny Vampire System

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Actually, I think it makes no sense to write more here, trying to reason with someone who is not able to separate fact from fiction, it makes no sense

(Translated by Google, I do not speak English like no other speak my language)

Realmente, yo pienso que no tiene sentido escribir mas aqui, intentar razonar con alguien que no es capaz de separar la realidad de la ficción, no tiene ningun sentido

(Traduccion de Google, yo no hablo ingles igual que otros no hablan mi idioma)

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If they use that and the Open Collar Leash script, just place them into a hud, and it will work. At least thats probably how they are doing it. We were designing a HUD with that script, An online script to show us our enemies, and so forth. It was beta testing, and the friendship ended because I refused to bow down and kiss a**, whatever happened to the HUD beyond that is well beyond me, because I didn't care. I deleted mine along with everything else that belonged to progeny

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Thats the thing, it was NOT apart of the progeny system, it was being developed as a HUD by myself and a friend who has scripting knowledge, and yet you still don't understand the fact, there are many things that are NOT apart of most systems, but the players use them. Just because it is NOT apart of the system via the original creator, does NOT mean it's players will not make them, Like for example: Spikes, Claws, and etc are made by others that use the Bloodline Scripts.

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CleoSertorii wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:



I very much doubt that's the kind of script she's talking about, since, as the article to which you link explains, it's meant to be worn by the avatar who is doing the following.    It's the same kind of thing that slave collars use.    

I thought she was describing how she was dragged around against her will by people using a scripted object.    I know how that's done, and it's a completely different function.    As I said, it only works on land where push is enabled (because you can push people towards yourself as well as away from you).

 

No, sorry if i was unclear in any way. The follower that i was describing allows the person using it to follow another avatar around, not drag their avatar against their will. The times it has been used on me, I could freely move my avatar around anywhere like usual (including flight), but the progeny who had attached themselves to me would be able to follow me no matter where I went on the sim, and if i stopped moving for even one second, they would be practically sitting in my lap. Teleporting away to another sim would break the link, but coming back again, the follower would reaquire my avi almost instantly.

I have seen two versions of this follower...one simply allows the user to follow another avatar to stay in feeding range (2m for progeny), and the other would do the same thing except their avatar would be ON yours, using a hug animation. Moving anywhere would drag them with you, even though they were the one who initiated it.

Sorry, I misunderstood.    I thought that you were being trapped in some way by this script.    Then that does look like what they were using.

What threw me is that what you describe is the griefer simply automating something he could do anyway -- follow you around.    The script's not doing anything that couldn't be better (though more laboriously) done with the mouse and arrow keys.    I'm not sure what the point of using the script is, other than simple laziness.

Be that as it may, at most venues, the solution would be clear -- complain to the landowner or someone in a position of authority at the venue that this guy is harassing you.    If that happened at one of the locations in which I'm involved, we'd tell him to stop and, if he continued to make a nuisance of himself, we'd eject and ban him.    

I do understand your point, but it seems to me best understood as "LL don't do enough to prevent griefing on LL-owned land" rather than something about Progeny in particular.    It seems to me -- unless I've misunderstood again -- that Progeny members can, in the normal course of events, persue their RP with far less disruption than do Bloodlines players, since they don't harass people with unsolicited bite requests.    

Indeed, the general complaint is that people playing Progeny are secretive and clandestine about what they're doing, while your complaint is the complete opposite -- the people you encountered made a very public nuisance of themselves, which would have resulted in their being banned from most places in SL.

Essentially, if you're on one of our regions and complain to one of our managers that the guy over there is harassing you by following you round and putting himself into hug animations, the manager will deal with it in short order.    If, however, your complaint is simply that the guy standing over there, apparently minding his own business, is, in fact, using a HUD to pretend to bite people without anyone being aware of it, it's much less clear to me what harm he's doing and what you want our manager to do about it.

 

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LadyShad0wz Greymoon wrote:

If they use that and the Open Collar Leash script, just place them into a hud, and it will work. At least thats probably how they are doing it. We were designing a HUD with that script, An online script to show us our enemies, and so forth. It was beta testing, and the friendship ended because I refused to bow down and kiss a**, whatever happened to the HUD beyond that is well beyond me, because I didn't care. I deleted mine along with everything else that belonged to progeny

Thanks.   Now Cleo has explained it more fully, I see you were correct.   I'd misunderstood and thought that she meant that she was being dragged round against her will.

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CleoSertorii wrote:

I have said this before, but one of the things that i find ironic here are that nearly all of the replies with "advice", while in most cases well meaning, still do not come from personal experience with progeny vampires.


The forums are a little SL backwater (not headwater, as there is no larger flow downstream and some argue that we contribute nothing, even if there were). You may not have realized that when you arrived, but it should have become clear pretty quickly. So it's not ironic that you're hearing from people with no personal Progeny experience similar to yours, it's to be expected. I could argue that being surprised by the expected is the real irony. That happens to me all the time.

The OP, way back in 2012, noticed our ignorance but worked up the wrong explanation...


Martin Emerald (the OP) wrote (way back in 2012):

I see no mention of a progeny vampire RP system on the forums. It seems it has been keep from you, but they have been in beta for over a year.

Even though Martin brought up Progeny in 2012, when this thread came back to life months ago we still weren't mentioning it. Our ignorance of Progeny wasn't because it was being "kept from us" (which suggests a sort of conspiracy theorizing that makes me roll my eyes). We simply haven't been bothered enough by (or encountered at all) Progeny RP.

I've neither the time nor the inclination to dig through the thread to come up to date, but my recollection is that the main point of contention in the thread's rebirth a few months ago was the imaginary machinations of Progeny players. I don't think you're terribly bothered by our general dismissal of that concern. But I am now reading of tangible griefing by Progeny players. That's a valid concern and I'm glad Innula has taken the time to help us understand what's going on.

I have no personal experience with Progeny, but I've certainly witnessed and participated in my share of skirmishes, in SL and in decades of online venues before it. The nature of Progeny's RP may afford misbehavior by establishing a group identity and goal. That in itself doesn't promote discord, but it provides the lines of demarcation, like furrows in a field, from which the seeds of discord can sprout (I'm feeling analogy prone today, shoot me). Progeny is not unique in that regard.

I agree with Innula that the primary culprit here is LL. Griefing of one kind or another is part and parcel of anonymous online social venues. Progeny may rise above the backround noise on LL properties, but I think the background noise on LL properties is also above average across all of SL.

Long ago, I thought I'd try my hand at helping newcomers at Ahern. I soon got my ass handed to me on a plate by someone who didn't appreciate me trying to help them avoid the griefers. It seems I'm fairly unable to distinguish those who don't enjoy being griefed from those who do. These days, I don't spend much time in SL, but I do haunt Answers, where I'm able to (mis)educate people without all the consternation.

Some of the trouble you've had in making your case here is due to the efforts of other Progeny critics. You've been jumbled in with those who've been hurling insults. With friends like that?

And it doesn't help that your forum signature is "I'd like to say it was nice to meet you, but that would be a lie."

 

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Innula, the point that Cleo and I have made, time and again, is that the PV's choose to use Landing hubs and social areas BECAUSE they are not policed. They also seem to take great delight in TELLING a perspective player, "oh you are a shade, such and such did that to you" and so they spread hate and distrust.

My own personal view now is that I couldn't give a flying F what PV's do, as long as it dosn't involve my avatar in any way, and that INCLUDES being on some two-bit PV database.

People should know about the PV game, they can make their own choices as to if they want to play or not. That is what I and many like me have been trying to do, raise awareness of something that is kept secret for no good reason.

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/me Hurls another insult........if you don't "spend much time in SL" what do you possibly think you can do by commenting here? Get in world and check it out for yourself before you crown yourself as any kind of educator!

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


CleoSertorii wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:



I very much doubt that's the kind of script she's talking about, since, as the article to which you link explains, it's meant to be worn by the avatar who is doing the following.    It's the same kind of thing that slave collars use.    

I thought she was describing how she was dragged around against her will by people using a scripted object.    I know how that's done, and it's a completely different function.    As I said, it only works on land where push is enabled (because you can push people towards yourself as well as away from you).

 

No, sorry if i was unclear in any way. The follower that i was describing allows the person using it to follow another avatar around, not drag their avatar against their will. The times it has been used on me, I could freely move my avatar around anywhere like usual (including flight), but the progeny who had attached themselves to me would be able to follow me no matter where I went on the sim, and if i stopped moving for even one second, they would be practically sitting in my lap. Teleporting away to another sim would break the link, but coming back again, the follower would reaquire my avi almost instantly.

I have seen two versions of this follower...one simply allows the user to follow another avatar to stay in feeding range (2m for progeny), and the other would do the same thing except their avatar would be ON yours, using a hug animation. Moving anywhere would drag them with you, even though they were the one who initiated it.

Sorry, I misunderstood.    I thought that you were being trapped in some way by this script.    Then that does look like what they were using.

What threw me is that what you describe is the griefer simply automating something he could do anyway -- follow you around.    The script's not doing anything that couldn't be better (though more laboriously) done with the mouse and arrow keys.    I'm not sure what the point of using the script is, other than simple laziness.

Be that as it may, at most venues, the solution would be clear -- complain to the landowner or someone in a position of authority at the venue that this guy is harassing you.    If that happened at one of the locations in which I'm involved, we'd tell him to stop and, if he continued to make a nuisance of himself, we'd eject and ban him.    

I do understand your point, but it seems to me best understood as "LL don't do enough to prevent griefing on LL-owned land" rather than something about Progeny in particular.    It seems to me -- unless I've misunderstood again -- that Progeny members can, in the normal course of events, persue their RP with far less disruption than do Bloodlines players, since they don't harass people with unsolicited bite requests.    

Indeed, the general complaint is that people playing Progeny are secretive and clandestine about what they're doing, while your complaint is the complete opposite -- the people you encountered made a very public nuisance of themselves, which would have resulted in their being banned from most places in SL.

Essentially, if you're on one of our regions and complain to one of our managers that the guy over there is harassing you by following you round and putting himself into hug animations, the manager will deal with it in short order.    If, however, your complaint is simply that the guy standing over there, apparently minding his own business, is, in fact, using a HUD to pretend to bite people without anyone being aware of it, it's much less clear to me what harm he's doing and what you want our manager to do about it.

 

Oh... I get it.  I suppose I was as mistaken as you.  In which case, I apologize to both Cleo and LadyShad0wz for suggesting any sort of nefarious intent, concerning this scripting matter, on either of their parts.  I still contend that no harm is being done by those merely using the Progeny system in order to pretend to bite people.

@Cleo: One of the first things I said directly to you in this thread is basically that I don't believe that whatever harassment you may have been subject to by certain individuals should be condoned in any way, by anyone.  I still believe this to be the case.  I also happen to believe that your hatred of Progeny is more harmful to yourself than any sort of incidental Progeny-affiliated griefer.

...Dres

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

My own personal view now is that I couldn't give a flying F what PV's do, as long as it dosn't involve my avatar in any way, and that INCLUDES being on some two-bit PV database.

I was hoping that eventually you'd take my advice, even if it meant that you first had to convince yourself that you came up with it on your very own.  I'm sincerely proud of you.

...Dres

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

/me Hurls another insult........if you don't "spend much time in SL" what do you possibly think you can do by commenting here? Get in world and check it out for yourself before you crown yourself as any kind of dictator!

FIFY

...Dres *waves at Maddy*

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

Innula, the point that Cleo and I have made, time and again, is that the PV's choose to use Landing hubs and social areas BECAUSE they are not policed. They also seem to take great delight in TELLING a perspective player, "oh you are a shade, such and such did that to you" and so they spread hate and distrust.

My own personal view now is that I couldn't give a flying F what PV's do, as long as it dosn't involve my avatar in any way, and that INCLUDES being on some two-bit PV database.

People should know about the PV game, they can make their own choices as to if they want to play or not. That is what I and many like me have been trying to do, raise awareness of something that is kept secret for no good reason.

If your point is that Landing Hubs and LL-owned social areas tend to attract griefers because they're badly policed, and these griefers include players of Progeny, then I won't argue with you.   However, I do think it's a bit odd, out of all the annoyances and nuisances to be found at places like Ahern, to single out any one in particular.    Landing Hubs and similar are snake-pits, or can be, and everyone knows that.    I'm all in favour of clearing out the nuisances (though I do understand the practical problems of policing these places that LL face) but I don't see the point of focussing on one group of nuisances to the exclusion of all the rest.

However, I'm still rather confused.   As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, the normal game-play in Progeny doesn't involve tellling non-players anything about the game, including that they've been bitten.    

Am I correct in this?   If someone is playing Progeny correctly he shouldn't tell me he's bitten me, and I can go through SL blissfully unaware that dozens of vampires are snacking off me?    

You see, I'm having problems understanding whether the main complaint is that Progeny keep everything a secret and don't tell anyone what they're doing,or if it's that, as you put it, they take great delight in telling prospective players in detail what they've been doing.      

If they came to one of our venues and started upsetting visitors by tellling them  "oh you are a shade, such and such did that to you,"  we'd boot them.   However, they don't (I'd see the reports if they did).  But if they stand around quietly pretending to bite people and no one is aware of it, I simply don't see the harm.

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

Innula, the point that Cleo and I have made, time and again, is that the PV's choose to use Landing hubs and social areas BECAUSE they are not policed. They also seem to take great delight in TELLING a perspective player, "oh you are a shade, such and such did that to you" and so they spread hate and distrust.

My own personal view now is that I couldn't give a flying F what PV's do, as long as it dosn't involve my avatar in any way, and that INCLUDES being on some two-bit PV database.

People should know about the PV game, they can make their own choices as to if they want to play or not. That is what I and many like me have been trying to do, raise awareness of something that is kept secret for no good reason.

If your point is that Landing Hubs and LL-owned social areas tend to attract griefers because they're badly policed, and these griefers include players of Progeny, then I won't argue with you.   However, I do think it's a bit odd, out of all the annoyances and nuisances to be found at places like Ahern, to single out any one in particular.    Landing Hubs and similar are snake-pits, or can be, and everyone knows that.    I'm all in favour of clearing out the nuisances (though I do understand the practical problems of policing these places that LL face) but I don't see the point of focussing on one group of nuisances to the exclusion of all the rest.

However, I'm still rather confused.   As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, the normal game-play in Progeny doesn't involve tellling non-players anything about the game, including that they've been bitten.    

Am I correct in this?   If someone is playing Progeny correctly he shouldn't tell me he's bitten me, and I can go through SL blissfully unaware that dozens of vampires are snacking off me?    

You see, I'm having problems understanding whether the main complaint is that Progeny keep everything a secret and don't tell anyone what they're doing,or if it's that, as you put it, they take great delight in telling prospective players in detail what they've been doing.      

If they came to one of our venues and started upsetting visitors by tellling them 
"oh you are a shade, such and such did that to you,"  we'd boot them.   However, they don't (I'd see the reports if they did).  But if they stand around quietly pretending to bite people and no one is aware of it, I simply don't see the harm.

 

Hopefully, this will clairfy things a bit....

Progeny have several rules of behavior, but their #1 rule, as i understand it, is the principle of "masquerade"...which means that no human (non-player) is every supposed to know of their existence. Progeny are not allowed to tell humans who they are, or that they are being bitten. Progeny are also not allowed to tell people about other progeny vampires. When progeny is talked abou tby non-players, they are basically instructed to deny having any knowledge that progeny even exists. "Outing"  progeny vampires is such a  big concern, that Lachiel (Progeny creator) has even addressed it in one of his recent podcasts. So, thats how they are SUPPOSED to RP.

The reality though, is that progeny vamps often brag about their bites, proudly wear clan or family group tags, have progeny groups listed in their profiles, and make such a public nuisance out of themselves, it's hard to mistake who they are. Some of them also get quite hostile when non-players discuss PV in local chat. That is how i got involved in all of this...an ex-progeny and i were talking about the system in local. Another progeny immediately threatened me in local to stop talking about it, physically attacked my avi, then sent a threatening IM, promising to "make my SL life hell" if i continued to discuss progeny openly. My friend got hauled in to progeny court to be "disciplined" for discussing progeny with a non-player.

On top of all of that, since Social Islands (and other newbie welcome areas) have been designated by progeny as open hunting grounds, then a large number of progeny literally congregate there to feed, and fight eachother. Progeny on progeny bites are also totally visible, as they involve bite animations. It is a common thing to see a string of 3-4 progeny all attached with followers and bump attack huds (no, not part of the official progeny hud) pushing and shoving right in the middle of a big group of new residents. Imagine being a brand new avi, trying to learn how to walk, talk, and change clothes, then all of a sudden, a half dozen vampires come out of nowhere and begin bumping eachother (and anyone else within range) for sometimes as long as an hour straight. While this is going on, other progeny are shadowing newbies (sometimes using the force hug to attach to them) and feeding. I would really like for someone to try to justify how this doesnt qualify as disruptive behavior.

This is the point i have been trying to make the entire time...if progeny would behave they way they are supposed to, then no one, myself included would have even known they existed. In principle, the secret bites and the database are annoying, but the moment they cross that line to trolling and griefing, then something needs to be done about it. Personally, I believe the initial hostility was created by the enforcement of the masquerade principle. If they weren't so paranoid about being discovered, then maybe it might not be such an issue. The other big problem is their unwillingness to discipline their own players who abuse others. The standard excuse i have heard is that Lachiel only created the system, and he is not responsible for what people do with it. That is ** in my opinion, because they DO enforce rules among their own players.

Now, just to make it clear, we are not singling out progeny as the only griefers out there. Obviously there are others, and the only way to deal with them is the AR system, and not worth the time of a forum thread. However, because progeny is an RP system with rules and a way to enforce them from within, that is the primary reason why we seem to target them in exclusion of others. If we raise enough awareness of their behavior, there is a possibility that the progeny leadership migh tbe willing ot make a few adjustments to how they do things, in order to promote those "bridges" of communication that Oberon mentioned.

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While i am not a member of Progeny I am aware of a few things about it.

1/ unless the victim is drained totally they make a full recovery in a few days if being "bitten" (it would seem dumb to kill your food source)

2/ the individuals attacking each other are rougue players outcast from the Progeny system ie people who do not follow the rules of the game.

  I belive that while yes people have rights not to be harrased that the whole thing is being blown out of Proportion. Personally if i get bitten i will not know about it even if i am dead in the game and as i do not play the game, why worry about it?

at least theres no random bite requests and need to recrute individuals who may not know what they are getting into?

it seems to me to be a fairly innocuous pass time compared to some in world.

 I t is just my opinion of course but I think my Avi is in no way affected by this passtime and if it helps some individuals RP their fantasy with 0 interaction from me then good on them ! at least they are leaving me the hell alone !

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CleoSertorii wrote:

I hang out at one of the social gathering sims, and i see progeny vampires come in all of the time to feed on unsuspecting new residents. Apparently, they got me too at some point, beause i read as "clammy" or "very pale". I don't personally have anything against people RP'ing as vampires, but this idea of being fed on without even knowing about it just bugs the hell out of me. I've even been threatened by a progney because i dared to say something about it in local chat. What i would really like to see is someone come up with a progeny detector for us non-progeny players, so we can self-scan for bite activity and spot anyone out there with an active progeny HUD. If progeny wants to be realistic, their victims need to have at least a chance at defending themselves.

I have not spoken at all about this but I probably know more about the references of these games out of everyone who responded to this forum post as I even named myself after one of the Vampire Clans in this game. I used to play the game Vampire the Masquerade by White Wolf Publishing, this is the ACTUAL game not the Second Life version. I personally love Vampire Role-Play and gaming, way back in 2008 I started playing Bloodlines in SL. I willing joined this game because I'm a gamer and it was a game which (if played correctly) encouraged people to actual talk to each other and not to randomly bite them. My sister and I made friends through this game, today (myself included) many people don't talk to each other in SL we shop and go back home. I am in no way promoting Bloodlines in SL, yes I am registered in the game but I have not played this game in years. I have played Tiny Empires and owned at least two battle system HUDS. I'm not "afraid" of losing my soul in SL or being "bitten" I find people who take SL so seriously hilarious, I'm not talking just in terms of Bloodlines but in other ways as well (which is too much to get into here). The thing that actually bothers me the most is that we don't know where we stand in this game "Progeny" unless we play the game, I agree with Cleo I rather know than to not know. I also would rather be asked or in some way "defend" myself, I know that in Vampire the Masquerade humans didn't know that they were bitten but you were the Vampire and you were not dealing with real people. What worked for VTM by White Wolf shouldn't be the same here, I rather know where I stand or I do not approve of a game like this to be in SL. I believe that being "blissfully ignorant" like many are accepting is not good enough for me, I rather be informed. I know SL may have may have tons of HUDS which I never heard of but I want to know if I am being involved in any way in any of them. I believe it is our right to know rather to to be silently bitten, I would rather mute someone than to be used as bait in this system. Yes, I know this is all a game but I am not against gaming or Vampire Role-Play but by the sounds of it this is not Role-Play or even a game as it doesn't involved any communication it just sounds to me they are simply spamming a HUD in a crowded Sim biting as many people as they can, how is that fun? It sounds to me like anti-social free version of Bloodlines without the animations and the other features that made the game at least relatively interesting. I can't see what anyone would get out of this "game" but whatever the game consist of, I want to know if I am involved in it as you cannot search the database or anything on their website you need the HUD. So my question is, why would someone want to play a game like this in SL when SL is a social community and really you don't have bragging rights because you are to uphold the "Masquerade" that does seem silly to have a game based of that concept in a social community like SL. I would suggest that Progeny Vampires play a REAL GAME and forget this SL stuff as it would be way more fun to buy the actual game than to in a lame attempt to copy the concepts of the actual game and apply them to SL. Just play the actual game!

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Tremere Ember wrote: My sister and I made friends through this game

I'm so glad to hear that you made up your quarrel.

Joe

/Sibling rivalry's such a **bleep**, isn't it.

//Especially if you're both girls.

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JoeKingleigh wrote:


Tremere Ember wrote: My sister and I made friends through this game

I'm so glad to hear that you made up your quarrel.

Joe

/Sibling rivalry's such a **bleep**, isn't it.

//Especially if you're both girls.

That doesn't make any sense ^ If I said we became friends through this game it would. That in no way implies we were ever enemies what you said made absolutely no sense. o.O

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Tremere Ember wrote:


JoeKingleigh wrote:


Tremere Ember wrote: My sister and I made friends through this game

I'm so glad to hear that you made up your quarrel.

Joe

/Sibling rivalry's such a **bleep**, isn't it.

//Especially if you're both girls.

That doesn't make any sense ^ If I said we
became
friends through this game it would. That in no way implies we were ever enemies what you said made absolutely no sense. 
o.O

In English it does.

Joe

/But maybe not American

//Or Australian

///Or whatever dialect you might speak

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JoeKingleigh wrote:


Tremere Ember wrote:


JoeKingleigh wrote:


Tremere Ember wrote: My sister and I made friends through this game

I'm so glad to hear that you made up your quarrel.

Joe

/Sibling rivalry's such a **bleep**, isn't it.

//Especially if you're both girls.

That doesn't make any sense ^ If I said we
became
friends through this game it would. That in no way implies we were ever enemies what you said made absolutely no sense. 
o.O

In English it does.

Joe

/But maybe not American

//Or Australian

///Or whatever dialect you might speak

It's clear you are not a native English speaker from your other posts. I noticed that you like to correct native English speakers here on the forum but in this comment it proved that you clearly need to work on your English! I know they have other forum sections that may be in your language, why don't you check those out? 

P.S. It also seems like you just want to get my attention, move along now.

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Tremere Ember wrote:

So my question is, why would someone want to play a game like this in SL when
SL is a social community
and really you don't have
bragging rights
because you are to uphold the "Masquerade" that does seem silly to have a game based of that concept in
a social community like SL
.

You may use SL as a social platform, but not everyone does.  There are those who don't wish to socialize at all... others simply wish to socialize with a small group of people with which the share a common interest.  I have to assume that Progeny players must socialize with each other to some extent.  Whether they wish to socialize with the general population or not is entirely up to them as individuals.  Individuals who, for the most part, simply wish to be given freedom to roleplay as they see fit, without hindering anyone else's quiet enjoyment of their SL experience.

I take no issue whatsoever with your, or anyone else's, wish to be informed, nor do I take offense to you, or anyone else, stating their opinion of the Progeny system.  If stating opinions and informing people were the extent to which the anti-Progeny zealots on this thread were willing to go, I'd have long left this conversation.  Instead they act as if there's some sort of war going on, which gives them the right to go to pretty much any lengths to achieve their questionable goals, no matter how immoral or illegal.

Discussion has taken place on this very thread which advocates a number of unsavory actions.  Such as the creation of a system which links (however erroneously) accounts to Progeny, enabling them to be banned from sims across the grid.  This was the very same sort of behavior which caused LL to dismantle and ban the Redzone system; declaring that such behavior is entirely unacceptable.

Someone had not only advocated hacking into the Progeny servers (apparently, in order to retrieve names for the aforementioned banning system), but actually admitted to doing that very thing.  Now, I'm not adverse to a bit of civil disobedience, should there be a great enough cause.  I think only a crazy person would believe that as insignificant an issue as this in any way raises to the level that would justify breaking the law.

Lesser indiscretions consist of things such as coming here to gloat about having been able to pick a fight with a group of Progeny members in order to garner some insignificant, anecdotal evidence of how horrible is the whole of Progeny.

You may not like the way Progeny roleplay is structured, but I certainly hope you don't fall into the unfortunate misconception (into which so many here have fallen) that you actually have any right whatsoever to a say about how they choose to structure their roleplay.

...Dres

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I think it's rather funny that you made such a big deal with Bloodlines and now you sound like an advocate for the “Progeny” system. I don't know if you remember but awhile back you were ripping a girl apart here on the forum because she was looking for Bloodlines members to join her family but yet you claim you believe in everyone's right to "Role-Play" and "live and let live" which obviously you do not! Now we are discussing another vampire system for the poor and anti-social vampires out here. Now, you know that most people would consider SL a social community if you don't like socializing why are you even in SL? We all know that you will have to socialize some whether you have a small but close group of friends or a large group of friends you are still socializing, if I called SL a “game” how many of you would be ripping me apart for saying something like that? ;) Most people have accepted SL as a social community, ask any your friends I am sure they will accept it as a “social community” sooner than they would accept it as a “game”, am I right? I am not saying that “Progeny” vampires are not socializing at all but they do seem rather creepy hanging out at popular Sims trying to bite as many people as can in a rather sneaky way. They may be socializing with each other but not with the people they should be us their supposed "victims"

You said “You may not like the way Progeny role-play is structured, but I certainly hope you don't fall into the unfortunate misconception (into which so many here have fallen) that you actually have any right whatsoever to a say about how they choose to structure their role-play.” This part actually made me laugh because I don't care what people do in SL, a lot of people in SL are into a lot of sick stuff but the point is this may involve me. As you and I (considering you don't play this) are used a part of their system as "victims" WITHOUT our consent. I would rather have a message popping on my screen asking me to accept or decline their attack, see this is where our opinions differ. I love how if someone is not one of your friends or if it's an opinion you don't agree with the person is considered one of the “unfortunate few”. My opinion is just as valid as yours Dres and don't INSULT Role-Players by saying this is Role-Play when it's clearly NOT. Role-Play involves speaking, this “Progeny” system doesn't involve any which you seem to agree with by saying " There are those who don't wish to socialize at all" so how can you call it Role-Play? Now what I believe should happen is that the creators of this system should only allow the HUD to work on specific Sims, this way we won't be part of this system unless we enter that specific Sim. So they won't be able to hang out at crowded Sims and spam their HUD (which is my impression of what they seem to do). From what I have been hearing about "Progeny" is that it's not Role-Play at least only optionally as you don't need to entice anyone to allow them to "bite" you, you can just spam the HUD. If these Progeny vampires had specific Sims to "Role-Play" and the HUD wouldn't work in other Sims, this would make both sides happy. Don't you agree?

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Tremere Ember wrote:

I think it's rather funny that you made such a big deal with Bloodlines and now you sound like an advocate for the “Progeny” system.

Would you be kind enough to refresh my memory of when I have ever "made such a big deal with Bloodlines" (whatever that means)?  If anything, I've railed against the anti-Bloodlines idiots just a vociferously as I do the anti-Progeny ones.  If, by chance, you're referencing the time I spoke up against LL's unfortunate mismanagement of this forum around the time they imbecilically decided to create a vampire themed sub-forum, I believe you've remembered the actual course of events inaccurately.

 


Tremere Ember wrote:

I don't know if you remember but awhile back you were ripping a girl apart here on the forum because she was looking for Bloodlines members to join her family but yet you claim you believe in everyone's right to "Role-Play" and "live and let live" which obviously you do not!

I assure you that, if I ripped anyone apart (how that's even possible here, I've no idea), I wasn't doing so simply because they were looking for members to join their clan.

 


Tremere Ember wrote:

Now we are discussing another vampire system for the poor and anti-social vampires out here. Now, you know that most people would consider SL a social community if you don't like socializing why are you even in SL? We all know that you will have to socialize
some
whether you have a small but close group of friends or a large group of friends you are still socializing, if I called SL a “game” how many of you would be ripping me apart for saying something like that?
;)
Most people have accepted SL as a social community, ask any your friends I am sure they will accept it as a “social community” sooner than they would accept it as a “game”, am I right? I am not saying that “Progeny” vampires are not socializing
at all
but they do seem rather
creepy
hanging out at popular Sims trying to bite as many people as can in a rather
sneaky
way. They may be socializing with each other but not with the people they should be
us
their supposed "victims
"

I agree with you that it's highly probably that most people consider SL a social platform... I know I do.  But, my points were that not everyone does and even if they do, not everyone wishes to be social with everyone else on the grid. 

 


Tremere Ember wrote:

You said “You may not like the way Progeny role-play is structured, but I certainly hope you don't fall into the unfortunate misconception (into which so many here have fallen) that you actually have any right whatsoever to a say about how they choose to structure their role-play.” This part actually made me laugh because I don't care what people do in SL, a lot of people in SL are into a lot of sick stuff but the point is this may involve me.

Except, it really doesn't actually involve you at all.

 


Tremere Ember wrote:

As you and I (considering you don't play this) are used a part of their system as "victims" WITHOUT
our
consent. I would rather have a message popping on my screen asking me to accept or decline their attack, see this is where our opinions differ.

Agreed.

 


Tremere Ember wrote:

My opinion is just as valid as yours Dres and don't INSULT Role-Players by saying this is Role-Play when it's clearly NOT.

You are the one insulting a group of roleplayers by stating that what they do is not roleplay.  Just because it doesn't mesh with the way in which you would choose to roleplay, doesn't make it any less legitimate a form of roleplay.

 


Tremere Ember wrote:

Role-Play involves speaking, this “Progeny” system doesn't involve any which you seem to agree with by saying " There are those who don't wish to socialize at all" so how can you call it Role-Play?

When I wrote that, I was referring to the type of people who sign into SL to use it as a sort of sandbox, such as those who find themselves a quiet place and just play around, not talking to anyone.  I specifically stated that Progeny roleplayers must socialize with each other to some extent, hopefully inferring that they need not wish to socialize with their victims.  You or I may not wish to roleplay in this manner, but why should we care if they do.  Especially since they harm no one by doing so.

 


Tremere Ember wrote:

Remember Dres, you do not wear a crown you are not the "Lord of this Forum" and by the look of it you were recently reminded of that.

Um... I actually sometimes do wear a crown... lol.  But, of course, I know very well that I'm not "Lord of this Forum" and have never claimed to be.

...Dres *finds it quite amusing when someone feels it necessary to actually argue about the validity of their own opinion*

P.S. Opinions are like nether regions... some smell much worse than others.

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