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Martin Emerald

Progeny Vampire System

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I suggest you go back to that supposed sage and ask them to explain to you what it means to reply to the post and not the poster.

Every critique I've delt you here in this thread has been a direct result of what you yourself have written
here in this thread
.  Yes, I've made observations about your behavior (as described by you) and speculated about what would motivate someone to behave in such a manner.  That alone in no way equates to judging someones character as a whole.

I did admit to treating you harshly when you first started posting to this thread, having conflated you with Goose and Friends, who'd just started resorting to calling me names because they didn't like what I had to say to them about this specific situation.  I apologized to you for that and haven't lumped you in with them since.  I suppose that just wasn't drama-inducing enough for you to notice.

Perhaps if you'd concentrate more on how
you
operate on the forums than on how
I
do, you'd be a whole lot better off.

...Dres

Your critiques have consitently ignored at least half of the points that I have brought up, and there is more to the story than what I have written in this thread. Your replies to me have been at best mildly condescending to obviously sarcastic, so excuse me if i have developed a bad impression about you based on that (and prety much every other post of yours I have read, both in this thread and in others.

Yes, you did admit that, but i was not aware that I needed to acknowledge it, but again, right here is a perfect example of the judging and condescention ("wasn't drama-inducing enough") that I have been talking about. Contrary to what you might think, this is not, and never has been, about drama. If i wanted drama that badly, don't you think I would be posting FAR more often in the forums as I do? I have very strong feelings on this one subject, but that hardly qualifies me as wanting drama.

Well, thanks for the advice, I'll be sure to give it some thought
:/
Ok, I'm done thinking about it

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I'm sorry, I can't really describe it any better than that. I don't know enough about scripting to go into details, i just see what it does. I do know that whatever the force hug does, no permission is asked, as it has been done to me several times. Moving around just drags the offending avi along with you. The only way to break the hug is to tp out of the area. I don't have such an issue with it myself, as I know how to deal with it, but there are often dozens of newbies that the progeny attach to, and they have no idea at all how to handle it. To clarify, the force hug doesnt animate your avatar, it only animates the avi of the person initiating the hug.

The first instance of abuse by a progeny was that this individual locked his avi into mine, and then used some sort of an attack hud to knock me around. I was in a no-scripts zone at the time, so I didn't know how he was even able to do it. Since then, I have learned that some scripted huds can be enabled outside of the no script area, then brought in, where it will work. My movelock works that same way. Oddly enough, Social Island has very few griefers, other than come of the progeny.

The main problem here is that this area (Social Island) is LL owned, and basically LL ignored for the most part. Contacting the land owner in this case is basically filling out an AR, and we all know how quickly LL responds to those :/

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

Most of us have principles.

That's the thing, Dillon... Cleo is seemingly unable to understand that anyone with whom she disagrees is disagreeing with her on principle.  She keeps stating that I've no stake in this argument, framing me as some sort of troll, all while completely disregarding the fact that my counter-argument is entirely based upon my perception of what is actually the principle of the matter.

I contend that people should be allowed to conduct themselves as they wish, as long as their conduct doesn't infringe upon anyone else's right to the quiet enjoyment of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  On principle, I'm totally against anyone who would seek to impose their will upon a group of people who's conduct is in no tangible way threatening to thier own happiness.

In other words, I'm a big advocate of live and let live and, while there's sometimes good reason for this sort of contentious debate surrounding the matter in RL, this instance in SL is quite simple, as far as I'm concerned... that being, "mind your own damned business and go about your merry way".

So, shoot me for trying to understand why Cleo and Gooseneck and whomever else that believes as such can't understand this basic principle of freedom.

...Dres

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


CleoSertorii wrote:


 

 

There are such things as principles, and I am very aware that many people don't believe principles exist in a "game" like SL. I don't generally criticize people for not having them, but at the same time, I don't believe it is right for those people to criticize those of us that DO have principles. Trust me, if PV vamps would just go on their merry way feeding in private, then i wouldn't have even half of the dislike for them that I do, but when they use their progeny status and RP as an excuse to abuse and disrupt, then I look on them as griefers, not RP'ers.

 

This paragraph pretty much sums up what is causing what you perceive as friction between you and several other people in this thread. First, I don't believe anyone here is criticizing you for having principles. Most of us have principles. You have been disagreed with, certainly, and disagreement can be felt as criticism (and is, by most people). But you have to learn to accept that not everyone is going to agree with everything you say. You can argue back all you want, but at that point is has nothing to do with criticism any longer; it's just a disagreement like any other.

This next is a two-parter; don't start getting steamed until you read both parts, please.

1. Most of us (myself included) think your irritation with the hidden bite thing is pretty silly and, since it in NO WAY even comes close to being a violation of any LL TOS, Rule of Conduct, or anything else (including most people's view of acceptable behavior), we naturally see your suggestion that someone do something about it equally silly. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

2. When Progeny "abuse and disrupt" you think they're griefers. We think so too! Anybody who pushes you or harrasses you repeatedly is a griefer (or an idiot; doesn't really matter which). But you don't form a posse and go after griefers. You just block and ignore, and if there are too many to keep up with you just GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. If you see something truly AR-worthy than use your right to AR. But let it go. That's right. Give up. Stay away from them. It's the only smart thing to do with griefers and it always has been. 

Ok, I think I need to make myself a lot more clear here, since there seems to be some misunderstandings as to the point I am trying to make. First, I know for a fact that not everyone will agree with my point of view. I understand that, and I totally accept it. It does not make me angry in any way. I also have no problems with people criticizing me, as long as they pay attention to ALL of the facts, instead of just some of them. My problem is not with the disagreements, but the attitude used in them. It is entirely possible for people to have disagreements and debates while treating eachother respectfully, and many in here are doing just that. However, it is my opinion, that certain selected people (dres as an example), seem to enjoy adding a condescending attitude, derogatory remarks, more sarcasm than is appropriate, and to some degree outright judging when they don't have the whole picture (or conveniently ignore the parts that matter).

About your two points, first I have said this many times, so I have no idea why it keeps getting brought up as if it was the primary concern...the hidden bites are the least of my worries about progeny. I get the idea of "imagination", and I am very aware that a hidden bite cant hurt my avi. I have never claimed that it does. My only suggestion on dealing with it was to have something similar to the garlic necklace in Bloodlines, so that people who do not wish to participate don't have to. I don't see how that can be considered "silly" in any way.

Second, griefing cannot be stopped by blocking anyone. Even derendering doesn't stop the physical effects on your avi. I also have never advocated forming a posse, or even using their own methods against them. There is nothing wrong with making other aware of people who grief, whether vampires or anyone else. In my experience, LL rarely responds to griefers, so what other options do I have? Yes, I know i can always go to another place, but I have my reasons for staying where I do, and the progeny are also in other places as well, so It isn't always easy to avoid them. Sure, I can always just stay on my island, but that's not much of a social experience.

The reason why I keep on about this, is not just that they are griefers, but that they are griefing under the guise of their progeny RP. THe PV leadership has the ability to deal with this, they just choose not to when non-players are involved, and THAT is what I am trying to get changed. Progeny has a bunch of in-house rules for behavior towards other progeny, and they have a full court system to handle violations. They have the ability to remove people from the game system for violating their own rules, but for some reason, a progeny abusing a non-player isn't a banable offense. I honestly believe that easly half of all abuse by progeny could be stopped if they would only be willing to listen and act on complaints by non-players.

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CleoSertorii wrote:

I'm sorry, I can't really describe it any better than that. I don't know enough about scripting to go into details, i just see what it does. I do know that whatever the force hug does, no permission is asked, as it has been done to me several times. Moving around just drags the offending avi along with you. The only way to break the hug is to tp out of the area. I don't have such an issue with it myself, as I know how to deal with it, but there are often dozens of newbies that the progeny attach to, and they have no idea at all how to handle it. To clarify, the force hug doesnt animate your avatar, it only animates the avi of the person initiating the hug.

The first instance of abuse by a progeny was that this individual locked his avi into mine, and then used some sort of an attack hud to knock me around. I was in a no-scripts zone at the time, so I didn't know how he was even able to do it. Since then, I have learned that some scripted huds can be enabled outside of the no script area, then brought in, where it will work. My movelock works that same way. Oddly enough, Social Island has very few griefers, other than come of the progeny.

The main problem here is that this area (Social Island) is LL owned, and basically LL ignored for the most part. Contacting the land owner in this case is basically filling out an AR, and we all know how quickly LL responds to those
:/

Thanks.    I now understand (I think) the exploit you describe and how it's done.    I won't go into details other than to say it depends on the landower not having turned off "Push" in the land options.    That's very rare, though -- Social Island must be one of the few places in SL where it does work.     If you're worried, just look for the no push icon in at the top of the screen -- if you see it, you're OK.    That's a separate setting from the "no scripts" one ("no scripts" is easy to circumvent -- it has to be, or AOs wouldn't work and planes would fall from the sky).

I think there's still some point in filling out ARs, though I do see what you mean.

However, the bit I don't get is that the sort of griefing you describe is possible in very few -- primarily LL-owned -- places.   There's literally thousands -- tens of thousands -- of venues and hangouts this sort of nonsense isn't possible and wouldn't be tolerated.   

Why not spend your time in some of the many places run by residents who do their best to keep the venue safe and welcoming rather than in somewhere you know attracts griefers?

As I think I've mentioned, I'm involved in running a whole estate of entertainment regions.   I see the incident reports our managers and security staff file, and we frequently discuss the best strategies to deal with griefing attempts and other threats to our regions.    I've seen reports about all manner of nuisances (including plenty of complaints unsolicited Bloodlines bites, which we don't tolerate -- a message that seems to have got through at last) but I've never once in the past four or five years I've been involved seen anyone mention Progeny and their members.

 

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Dillon Levenque wrote:

Most of us have principles.

That's the thing, Dillon... Cleo is seemingly unable to understand that anyone with whom she disagrees is disagreeing with her on principle.  She keeps stating that I've no stake in this argument, framing me as some sort of troll, all while completely disregarding the fact that my counter-argument is entirely based upon my perception of what is actually the principle of the matter.

I contend that people should be allowed to conduct themselves as they wish,
as long as their conduct doesn't infringe upon anyone else's right to the quiet enjoyment of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness
.  On principle, I'm totally against anyone who would seek to impose their will upon a group of people who's conduct is in no tangible way threatening to thier own happiness.

In other words, I'm a big advocate of
live and let live
and, while there's sometimes good reason for this sort of contentious debate surrounding the matter in RL, this instance in SL is quite simple, as far as I'm concerned... that being, "mind your own damned business and go about your merry way".

So, shoot me for trying to understand why Cleo and Gooseneck and whomever else that believes as such can't understand this basic principle of freedom.

...Dres

after all of this time, you still don't get it, do you? Much of progeny's activity goes against exactly what you said (bolded part above). Their conduct DOES infringe upon my enjoyment of my SL time, so I have every right to say something about it. Do I really have to spell it out for you...again? Or will you just keep on ignoring the relevant points that I have made at least a dozen times by now? You keep going on about "no tangible way", despite the very tangible examples that I have presented, which leads me to believe that you are conveniently ignoring those points. In any case, nothing you say will convince me to change my mind about this, or change how i deal with it, because I don't see you honestly trying to understand things from my point of view. Maybe that's just a result of incompatable communication methods, but I suspect it is something else. Either way, I have no plans to adjust the way I do things to suit how you think I should do them.

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


CleoSertorii wrote:

I'm sorry, I can't really describe it any better than that. I don't know enough about scripting to go into details, i just see what it does. I do know that whatever the force hug does, no permission is asked, as it has been done to me several times. Moving around just drags the offending avi along with you. The only way to break the hug is to tp out of the area. I don't have such an issue with it myself, as I know how to deal with it, but there are often dozens of newbies that the progeny attach to, and they have no idea at all how to handle it. To clarify, the force hug doesnt animate your avatar, it only animates the avi of the person initiating the hug.

The first instance of abuse by a progeny was that this individual locked his avi into mine, and then used some sort of an attack hud to knock me around. I was in a no-scripts zone at the time, so I didn't know how he was even able to do it. Since then, I have learned that some scripted huds can be enabled outside of the no script area, then brought in, where it will work. My movelock works that same way. Oddly enough, Social Island has very few griefers, other than come of the progeny.

The main problem here is that this area (Social Island) is LL owned, and basically LL ignored for the most part. Contacting the land owner in this case is basically filling out an AR, and we all know how quickly LL responds to those
:/

Thanks.    I now understand (I think) the exploit you describe and how it's done.    I won't go into details other than to say it depends on the landower not having turned off "Push" in the land options.    That's very rare, though -- Social Island must be one of the few places in SL where it does work.     If you're worried, just look for the no push icon in at the top of the screen -- if you see it, you're OK.    That's a separate setting from the "no scripts" one ("no scripts" is easy to circumvent -- it has to be, or AOs wouldn't work and planes would fall from the sky).

I think there's still some point in filling out ARs, though I do see what you mean.

However, the bit I don't get is that the sort of griefing you describe is possible in very few -- primarily LL-owned -- places.   There's literally thousands -- tens of thousands -- of venues and hangouts this sort of nonsense isn't possible and wouldn't be tolerated.   

Why not spend your time in some of the many places run by residents who do their best to keep the venue safe and welcoming rather than in somewhere you know attracts griefers?

As I think I've mentioned, I'm involved in running a whole estate of entertainment regions.   I see the incident reports our managers and security staff file, and we frequently discuss the best strategies to deal with griefing attempts and other threats to our regions.    I've seen reports about all manner of nuisances (including plenty of complaints unsolicited Bloodlines bites, which we don't tolerate -- a message that seems to have got through at last) but I've never once in the past four or five years I've been involved seen anyone mention Progeny and their members.

 

That sort of griefing shouldn't be tolerated at Social Island either, but as i said, we have no specific landowner to talk to about it. Any action on LL owned sims must go through the AR system, and believe me, I have filed dozens of them. Push is enabled at Social, and I have my own movelock just because of that. However, it's not just me who gets affected by this.

I spend time at Social Island for two reasons...one, because it is a wonderful place to meet new people, and second, because I enjoy helping new residents get a start in SL.  LL does a horrible job in teaching newbies the basics, so many of us have chosen to be available to help them when they need it. If it becomes obvious that there is no way that anything will change for the better, then I suppose I'll abandon that aspect of my SL, but for now, as long as there is even a chance that someone might listen, either LL or Progeny leadership, then I will continue to talk about it, and make people aware of what is happening. Nothing worth doing is ever easy.

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CleoSertorii wrote:



 

 

 

I suggest you go back to that supposed sage and ask them to explain to you what it means to reply to the post and not the poster.

Every critique I've delt you here in this thread has been a direct result of what you yourself have written
here in this thread
.  Yes, I've made observations about your behavior (as described by you) and speculated about what would motivate someone to behave in such a manner.  That alone in no way equates to judging someones character as a whole.

I did admit to treating you harshly when you first started posting to this thread, having conflated you with Goose and Friends, who'd just started resorting to calling me names because they didn't like what I had to say to them about this specific situation.  I apologized to you for that and haven't lumped you in with them since.  I suppose that just wasn't drama-inducing enough for you to notice.

Perhaps if you'd concentrate more on how
you
operate on the forums than on how
I
do, you'd be a whole lot better off.

...Dres

Your critiques have consitently ignored at least half of the points that I have brought up, and there is more to the story than what I have written in this thread. Your replies to me have been at best mildly condescending to obviously sarcastic, so excuse me if i have developed a bad impression about you based on that (and prety much every other post of yours I have read, both in this thread and in others.

Yes, you did admit that, but i was not aware that I needed to acknowledge it, but again, right here is a perfect example of the judging and condescention ("wasn't drama-inducing enough") that I have been talking about. Contrary to what you might think, this is not, and never has been, about drama. If i wanted drama that badly, don't you think I would be posting FAR more often in the forums as I do? I have very strong feelings on this one subject, but that hardly qualifies me as wanting drama.

Well, thanks for the advice, I'll be sure to give it some thought
:/
Ok, I'm done thinking about it


I don't blame you for developing a bad impression of me, just based upon the way I treated you when you first posted to this thread.  Lets face it, I wasn't just "mildly" condescending.  I find it quite amusing that you admit to being the type of person for whom the acknowledgement of an apology should be purposefully withheld. *shrugs*

You've also misinterpreted what I was saying.  It wasn't my intention to imply that you were seeking out drama, but rather that, since drama wasn't involved, you weren't interested... there's a difference.

By "advice", I suppose you mean my suggestion that you concentrate more on your own posting practices than you do on mine (and by that I meant anyone else's).  In which case, I must inform you that disregarding this particular suggestion may be detrimental to your well being.  After all, (as I've said before) it's much easier to modify your own behavior than it is to force someone else to modify theirs.

...Dres

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CleoSertorii wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Dillon Levenque wrote:

Most of us have principles.

That's the thing, Dillon... Cleo is seemingly unable to understand that anyone with whom she disagrees is disagreeing with her on principle.  She keeps stating that I've no stake in this argument, framing me as some sort of troll, all while completely disregarding the fact that my counter-argument is entirely based upon my perception of what is actually the principle of the matter.

I contend that people should be allowed to conduct themselves as they wish,
as long as their conduct doesn't infringe upon anyone else's right to the quiet enjoyment of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness
.  On principle, I'm totally against anyone who would seek to impose their will upon a group of people who's conduct is in no tangible way threatening to thier own happiness.

In other words, I'm a big advocate of
live and let live
and, while there's sometimes good reason for this sort of contentious debate surrounding the matter in RL, this instance in SL is quite simple, as far as I'm concerned... that being, "mind your own damned business and go about your merry way".

So, shoot me for trying to understand why Cleo and Gooseneck and whomever else that believes as such can't understand this basic principle of freedom.

...Dres

after all of this time, you still don't get it, do you? Much of progeny's activity goes against exactly what you said (bolded part above). Their conduct DOES infringe upon my enjoyment of my SL time, so I have every right to say something about it. Do I really have to spell it out for you...again? Or will you just keep on ignoring the relevant points that I have made at least a dozen times by now?
You keep going on about "no tangible way", despite the very tangible examples that I have presented
, which leads me to believe that you are conveniently ignoring those points. In any case, nothing you say will convince me to change my mind about this, or change how i deal with it, because I don't see you honestly trying to understand things from my point of view. Maybe that's just a result of incompatable communication methods, but I suspect it is something else. Either way, I have no plans to adjust the way I do things to suit how you think I should do them.

You have never shone anything close to tangible proof that the Progeny system itself is harmful to anyone in any sort of way.  Your accusations are all based upon anecdotal evidence made highly suspect by your own admitted instigation of such instances.

It's my continuing contention that you, and the likes of you, are actually the ones causing the problems and not the players of Progeny.

...Dres

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CleoSertorii wrote:

That sort of griefing shouldn't be tolerated at Social Island either, but as i said, we have no specific landowner to talk to about it. Any action on LL owned sims must go through the AR system, and believe me, I have filed dozens of them. Push is enabled at Social, and I have my own movelock just because of that. However, it's not just me who gets affected by this.

I spend time at Social Island for two reasons...one, because it is a wonderful place to meet new people, and second, because I enjoy helping new residents get a start in SL.  LL does a horrible job in teaching newbies the basics, so many of us have chosen to be available to help them when they need it. If it becomes obvious that there is no way that anything will change for the better, then I suppose I'll abandon that aspect of my SL, but for now, as long as there is even a chance that someone might listen, either LL or Progeny leadership, then I will continue to talk about it, and make people aware of what is happening. Nothing worth doing is ever easy.

 I agree, it shouldn't be tolerated anywhere, but the unforttunate fact is that LL seem to take the view -- which I can understand -- that the Governance team have limited resources which are better deployed against large-scale griefing and particularly serious misbehaviour (credit card fraud, for example), while people can easily move to venues that are run and policed by residents.

Certainly I understand your desire to meet and help new residents.   I share it, as do many people, which is why the estate in which I'm involved,appears in the destination guide under the tag Newcomer Friendly.    There's plenty more such places -- why not hang out at some of them and, if there's a place you particularly like, ask about becoming a helper?   

 

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The type of script she's talking about is listed here http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AvatarFollower

 

They have scripters may have rewrote that script to allow it to work in No script areas, I know of it , because back when I was apart of Progeny a friend of mine and I were developing a HUD that didn't go anywhere. It was just used for us, after the friendship ended however. It was given out to a few others, and I don't know what or where went afterwards. I'm going on Two years out of Progeny and I must say I'm loving it. Then again I don't go into SL all that often as I play games online now, and have no real desire to sit in SL dealing with the progeny BS anymore.

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The main reason that I STILL go into SL is that I have made many friends there on my "anti progeny crusade" LOL.

Anyway, my point of posting here has always been about one thing for me, that is the exposure of a group of bullies that go by the name of Progeny Vampires. I never started posting to do anything other than to raise awareness of the system. 

Now I don't really give a rats a*se if certain people don't agree with my thinking or actions as long as I achieve my goal, which as I have said before is to inform the populous of SL about PV......what they do with that information is up to them, hell they can join it if they want, but I would hope that they see it for what it is.

For the most part, I am in agreement with what has been said about "ignoring PV" and "going someplace else" and if I were a more liberal type of man then that is probably exactly what I would do. The trouble is, ignoring a problem does not help in finding a solution or a common ground, all it does is empower the bullies by letting them think they have "won".

Anyway, have fun everyone!

Love Gooseneck. xxxx

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LadyShad0wz Greymoon wrote:

The type of script she's talking about is listed here

 

They have scripters may have rewrote that script to allow it to work in No script areas, I know of it , because back when I was apart of Progeny a friend of mine and I were developing a HUD that didn't go anywhere. It was just used for us, after the friendship ended however. It was given out to a few others, and I don't know what or where went afterwards. I'm going on Two years out of Progeny and I must say I'm loving it. Then again I don't go into SL all that often as I play games online now, and have no real desire to sit in SL dealing with the progeny BS anymore.

I very much doubt that's the kind of script she's talking about, since, as the article to which you link explains, it's meant to be worn by the avatar who is doing the following.    It's the same kind of thing that slave collars use.    

I thought she was describing how she was dragged around against her will by people using a scripted object.    I know how that's done, and it's a completely different function.    As I said, it only works on land where push is enabled (because you can push people towards yourself as well as away from you).

 

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CleoSertorii wrote:


Dillon Levenque wrote:


CleoSertorii wrote:


 

 

There are such things as principles, and I am very aware that many people don't believe principles exist in a "game" like SL. I don't generally criticize people for not having them, but at the same time, I don't believe it is right for those people to criticize those of us that DO have principles. Trust me, if PV vamps would just go on their merry way feeding in private, then i wouldn't have even half of the dislike for them that I do, but when they use their progeny status and RP as an excuse to abuse and disrupt, then I look on them as griefers, not RP'ers.

 

This paragraph pretty much sums up what is causing what you perceive as friction between you and several other people in this thread. First, I don't believe anyone here is criticizing you for having principles. Most of us have principles. You have been disagreed with, certainly, and disagreement can be felt as criticism (and is, by most people). But you have to learn to accept that not everyone is going to agree with everything you say. You can argue back all you want, but at that point is has nothing to do with criticism any longer; it's just a disagreement like any other.

This next is a two-parter; don't start getting steamed until you read both parts, please.

1. Most of us (myself included) think your irritation with the hidden bite thing is pretty silly and, since it in NO WAY even comes close to being a violation of any LL TOS, Rule of Conduct, or anything else (including most people's view of acceptable behavior), we naturally see your suggestion that someone do something about it equally silly. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

2. When Progeny "abuse and disrupt" you think they're griefers. We think so too! Anybody who pushes you or harrasses you repeatedly is a griefer (or an idiot; doesn't really matter which). But you don't form a posse and go after griefers. You just block and ignore, and if there are too many to keep up with you just GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. If you see something truly AR-worthy than use your right to AR. But let it go. That's right. Give up. Stay away from them. It's the only smart thing to do with griefers and it always has been. 

Ok, I think I need to make myself a lot more clear here, since there seems to be some misunderstandings as to the point I am trying to make.

About your two points, first I have said this many times, so I have no idea why it keeps getting brought up as if it was the primary concern...the hidden bites are the least of my worries about progeny.

 

Jeez! Am I that unintelligible? I GET the point you are trying to make! I thought I made that clear. That's why I separated my last bit into two parts, since you'd pointed out that you would only hate Progeny about half as much (that's not a direct quote, but I'm pretty sure you did use the word 'hate') if they kept their mischief to the unannounced biting, and then went on to talk about the actual griefing.

I think the fact you are even bothered by the unannounced biting is odd, and hating someone for it even more odd. I get it that you're upset about more things than that but I think being upset about the biting is odd. I was just saying that I disagreed with you on that part. I then went onto Part 2.

In Part 2 I addressed the griefing aspects of the behavior you've said Progeny has shown. I agreed that behavior like that was griefing. I kind of thought I implied almost everyone else (okay, screw it: I said "we" without really knowing how everyone else feels) thinks it's griefing, too. You don't want to hear my suggestions on dealing with griefers, okay fine. You get to do what you want to do.

If you want to reply, you'll get the treat of having the last word.

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Dillon Levenque wrote:

Most of us have principles.

That's the thing, Dillon... Cleo is seemingly unable to understand that anyone with whom she disagrees is disagreeing with her on principle.  She keeps stating that I've no stake in this argument, framing me as some sort of troll, all while completely disregarding the fact that my counter-argument is entirely based upon my perception of what is actually the principle of the matter.

So, shoot me for trying to understand why Cleo and Gooseneck and whomever else that believes as such can't understand this basic principle of freedom.

...Dres

I probably shouldn't mention this, but since when has 'probably shouldn't' been a barrier? I seriously considered putting in this parenthetical after 'most of us have principles': (well, not Dresden of course, but most of the rest of us). I was afraid you'd come down on me for even suggesting you might be a principled rogue, rather than the unprincipled variety. :-) 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:



I very much doubt that's the kind of script she's talking about, since, as the article to which you link explains, it's meant to be worn by the avatar who is doing the following.    It's the same kind of thing that slave collars use.    

I thought she was describing how she was dragged around against her will by people using a scripted object.    I know how that's done, and it's a completely different function.    As I said, it only works on land where push is enabled (because you can push people towards yourself as well as away from you).

 

No, sorry if i was unclear in any way. The follower that i was describing allows the person using it to follow another avatar around, not drag their avatar against their will. The times it has been used on me, I could freely move my avatar around anywhere like usual (including flight), but the progeny who had attached themselves to me would be able to follow me no matter where I went on the sim, and if i stopped moving for even one second, they would be practically sitting in my lap. Teleporting away to another sim would break the link, but coming back again, the follower would reaquire my avi almost instantly.

I have seen two versions of this follower...one simply allows the user to follow another avatar to stay in feeding range (2m for progeny), and the other would do the same thing except their avatar would be ON yours, using a hug animation. Moving anywhere would drag them with you, even though they were the one who initiated it.

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Es extraño que hay tantos miembros de habla española de la progenie-vampiro. Tal vez hay algún tipo de vínculo entre eso y la forma en que se comportan? No es una declaración racista, sólo una observación.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


LadyShad0wz Greymoon wrote:

The type of script she's talking about is listed here

 

They have scripters may have rewrote that script to allow it to work in No script areas, I know of it , because back when I was apart of Progeny a friend of mine and I were developing a HUD that didn't go anywhere. It was just used for us, after the friendship ended however. It was given out to a few others, and I don't know what or where went afterwards. I'm going on Two years out of Progeny and I must say I'm loving it. Then again I don't go into SL all that often as I play games online now, and have no real desire to sit in SL dealing with the progeny BS anymore.

I very much doubt that's the kind of script she's talking about, since, as the article to which you link explains, it's meant to be worn by the avatar who is doing the following.    It's the same kind of thing that slave collars use.    

I thought she was describing how she was dragged around against her will by people using a scripted object.    I know how that's done, and it's a completely different function.    As I said, it only works on land where push is enabled (because you can push people towards yourself as well as away from you).

 

Why waste your time, Innula?  It's perfectly clear that neither Cleo nor LadyShad0wz have any idea whether or not what they've suggested could be or ever actually was scripted, much less that such scripting is included in the Progeny system.  What you're seeing here is the product of either rampant speculation or outright, fear mongering.  And, I wouldn't discount the possibility of both being in play.

...Dres

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Dillon Levenque wrote:

Most of us have principles.

That's the thing, Dillon... Cleo is seemingly unable to understand that anyone with whom she disagrees is disagreeing with her on principle.  She keeps stating that I've no stake in this argument, framing me as some sort of troll, all while completely disregarding the fact that my counter-argument is entirely based upon my perception of what is actually the principle of the matter.

So, shoot me for trying to understand why Cleo and Gooseneck and whomever else that believes as such can't understand this basic principle of freedom.

...Dres

I probably shouldn't mention this, but since when has 'probably shouldn't' been a barrier? I seriously considered putting in this parenthetical after 'most of us have principles': (well, not Dresden of course, but most of the rest of us). I was afraid you'd come down on me for even suggesting you might be a principled rogue, rather than the unprincipled variety. :-) 

LOL!!!  As romantic as it may sound, I'm nothing near what anyone would consider to be a rebel without a cause.

...Dres

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


 

 

 

 

Jeez! Am I that unintelligible? I GET the point you are trying to make! I thought I made that clear. That's why I separated my last bit into two parts, since you'd pointed out that you would only hate Progeny about half as much (that's not a direct quote, but I'm pretty sure you did use the word 'hate') if they kept their mischief to the unannounced biting, and then went on to talk about the actual griefing.

I think the fact you are even bothered by the unannounced biting is odd, and hating someone for it even more odd. I get it that you're upset about more things than that but I think being upset about the biting is odd. I was just saying that I disagreed with you on that part. I then went onto Part 2.

In Part 2 I addressed the griefing aspects of the behavior you've said Progeny has shown. I agreed that behavior like that was griefing. I kind of thought I implied almost everyone else (okay, screw it: I said "we" without really knowing how everyone else feels) thinks it's griefing, too. You don't want to hear my suggestions on dealing with griefers, okay fine. You get to do what you want to do.

If you want to reply, you'll get the treat of having the last word.


Ok, last word it is then...no, you are not unintelligible, but your first point made it seem as though I had a problem with accepting different points of view, which is not true. I felt that it was necessary to clarify (or reaffirm) that was not how i felt about things. It also might be a good idea for you to actually read what i wrote, and not add in words that i never used. The term I used was "dislike", not "hate", so please dont create an assessment of me based on the wrong word.

I also never said that the hidden bites were a non-issue for me, I just said they were at the bottom of my priority list. Is it odd to be upset that you are being used as an unwilling pawn in someone elses game? Maybe it is to you, but not everyone thinks that way. Maybe your point of view is the odd one, and i'm the one who is normal
:)
I would like to know who are the "most of us" who seem to agree that my feelings in this are "silly" and "odd". Have you taken a survey of the general SL population, or even of this forum? I probably shouldn't even bring this up, but the hidden bites go back to one of those principle things I keep talking about, but since you think that is silly and odd, I see no point in spelling it out for you.

I also never said I didn't want to hear your advice on how to deal with griefers, but I needed to explain why this situation was unique. Your suggestions were the generic sort that I already know about, as I have heard them from more people than just you. However, your suggestions didn't seem to take into account the specific circumstances that I and others have to deal with, so once again, I thought a bit more information would be helpful. If you decided to take that as an out of hand refusal to listen to you, then that's not my problem.

I have said this before, but one of the things that i find ironic here are that nearly all of the replies with "advice", while in most cases well meaning, still do not come from personal experience with progeny vampires. It is just possible that if some of you had experienced some of the same things I have personally witnessed, then your advice might be a bit more "tuned" to the circumstances.

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


 

 

Why waste your time, Innula?  It's perfectly clear that neither Cleo nor LadyShad0wz have any idea whether or not what they've suggested could be or ever actually was scripted, much less that such scripting is included in the Progeny system.  What you're seeing here is the product of either rampant speculation or outright, fear mongering.  And, I wouldn't discount the possibility of both being in play.

...Dres

/shakes her head and sighs....Dres, again you are demonstrating your trollishness here, and your lack of reading ability. Not once did any one here say or imply that the follower we have observed was a part of the progeny hud. in fact, I am pretty sure it is an entirely seperate hud, as I have seen other people i know (non progeny) using something similar. For you to go as far as practically accusing us of making this up is just out of line., and falls under the category of baseless accusations. I have seen this follower in action on a daily basis. It has been used on me many times, always by progeny. How about this, why don't you log into SL and go to Social Island at prime progeny gathering time and see for yourself?

You crossed the line here, dres...i don't lie.

btw, for your reading pleasure...

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/SmexyL-Follow-Grab-Hug-HUD-2/4599320

read the **** description and tell me again that this is speculation or fear mongering. If you really enjoy eating crow, then go on the MP and type "follower" or "follow hud" and see the wonderful assortment of these potential griefer tools, and hopefully you will think twice before accusing me of making **** up again.

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I doubt that Mr Dres has the time or inclination to visit anywhere in SL that he cannot be in control of his own destiny.

But you have given me an idea with the suggestion Cleo. How about we offer "tours of PV feeding grounds" ?

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CleoSertorii wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:


 

 

Why waste your time, Innula?  It's perfectly clear that neither Cleo nor LadyShad0wz have any idea whether or not what they've suggested could be or ever actually was scripted, much less that such scripting is included in the Progeny system.  What you're seeing here is the product of either rampant speculation or outright, fear mongering.  And, I wouldn't discount the possibility of both being in play.

...Dres

/shakes her head and sighs....Dres, again you are demonstrating your trollishness here, and your lack of reading ability. Not once did any one here say or imply that the follower we have observed was a part of the progeny hud. in fact, I am pretty sure it is an entirely seperate hud, as I have seen other people i know (non progeny) using something similar. For you to go as far as practically accusing us of making this up is just out of line., and falls under the category of baseless accusations. I have seen this follower in action on a daily basis. It has been used on me many times, always by progeny. How about this, why don't you log into SL and go to Social Island at prime progeny gathering time and see for yourself?

You crossed the line here, dres...i don't lie.

I didn't say you were lying, I said you have no idea if the type of scripting you spoke of is even possible.  Tbh, I don't know whether it's possible either, but I'm not the one ascribing such devious activity to a whole group of people with no proof of it's actual existence.

What I'm entirely certain of is the fact that, should you discontinue bothering Progeny RPers, they will eventually discontinue bothering you.  Why don't you go inworld, try that and see for yourself?

...Dres

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Dres, I told you it existed because i have SEEN it used, not only on me but also on others. Speculation played no part in it, but thanks for assuming. You chose to not see what I had said about it, and went on to imply that we had no idea what we were talking about. You can sit here and argue semantics all day to try to get out of what you said, but you did, in fact, imply that I was lying about it. You want proof, I provided it to you with the MP link that I posted, and you can't even acknowledge that...typical.

By the way, you are pretty far down on the list of people who's advice I will follow, so please stop trying to offer it. The one thing I am certain of is that you have still continued to miss my entire point (intentionally or otherwise), not that you ever cared about one in the first place. You keep saying that your responses are based on what I have posted, but it is glaringly obvious that your recollection of those posts is selective.

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There was no implication in what I wrote, what I wrote exactly states that which I meant... nothing more, nothing less.  If you've chosen to read more into it than that which was written, then so be it.

If you think for a second that my purpose here is to offer you advice, you are sadly mistaken.  What I've tried to do is point out the error of your ways.  I do so not for your benefit, but to hopefully guide those who might be subject to falling for your hyperbolic rhetoric.

As long as they're not impeding anyone else's experience, I believe that anyone who wishes to partake in the glorious ability to construct their own SL as they see fit should be able to do so, unobstructed by some obtuse busy bodies who take it upon themselves to try to force their fellow users to act according to some opaque moral code... or, as you like to call it, principles.

Obviously, we will never see eye to eye on this matter.  Taking that into account, I'm more than willing to drop it right where it is.  But, I assure you that, should you decide to continue posting your ridiculous rhetoric in this forum, I'll be here to provide a counterargument.  Unless, of course, I'm too busy with RL... in which case, I'll get back to you eventually.

...Dres

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