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Martin Emerald

Progeny Vampire System

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Lachiel Vaher wrote:

Progeny Countermeasures  LOL that's hilarious.

Though any progeny vampire caught sharing private system information with non-players will be banned from the system.

-- Now?  do I care about non-players?

I do and I don't.   I see all non-players as potential players, so I do care to some degree.

But let me be absolutely clear.

The Status of any given avatar in Progeny has no bearing on you, your avatar or anything else unless you are a player of the system,  this is why LL doesn’t care, because it doesn’t matter.   Only if you want to play progeny does it matter and then getting your status changed is ... well easy.

So.. if you are all bunged up become some group imaginary vampires, imagined that one of them may or may not have imagined biting your imaginary person because you were all imagining your own little imaginary worlds in the same imaginary space, then you my friend have bigger problems that some game you don’t play.

If you don’t like progeny, don’t play it, if you don’t like progeny players don’t associate with them. If you want to be a Real Vampire within the imaginary virtual context of Second Life then join us you are welcome. BUT, don’t go around bothering the non-players that is not only not the point, it’s against the rules ( not sure why that is dishonest LOL but ok sure why not ).

Ok, Lachiel, since you are going to take the time to come in here and coment, why don't you reply to the concerns that I have brought up? You say you do and don't care about non-players...could you please elaborate on that? Why don't you have a system in place to handle abuse complaints against progeny players? I am sure by now you are very aware that LL hardly ever responds to AR reports, yet i know for a fact that Progeny has an entire law enforcement division (the Marshals), and it's own court system for dealing with progeny who break the rules. Why is it so difficult to add in a little protection for non-players who get harassed and abused by your own people?

I find it rather amusing, and more than a bit hypocritical, that you keep going on and on about "real" vampires, then you turn around and talk about "imaginary" vampires. Please tell me again, how vampires of any sort can simply walk up to a person, feed off of them, and then move on without ANYONE knowing what is going on. You would think that at least, the victim would see the vamp coming, or feel the bite and have a chance to run away or fight back. This is exactly why your RP system is flawed. If you REALLY wanted it to be real, there needs to be at least some risk to the vampire (and randomly shading 20% or so of them doesn't really fit that scenario...yes, i listen to the podcasts). 

Another aspect of "real" vampire RP that seems to escape your notice....what happens when the general population becomes aware of a vampire infestation? They warn others, they fight back. If a vampire's identity is hidden, then it is the duty of the non-vamp to expose them. That's how it works in the books, isn't it? maybe those of us who "out"  your progeny vamps in public are, in fact, playing along with your RP in a way..just a thought. 

Now, it is true, we don't have to play if we don't want to, but you are insane if you think it is possible to avoid "associating" with progeny players, as it is not easy to tell who they even are, and of course you know your own rules about breaking masquerade. So, please explain how progeny vamps can be avoided when they congregate in the public social areas (like Social Island 1, one of my hangouts). Your vamps often show up in groups as large as 15+ vamps, all feeding and attaching followers to eachother AND their victims (which is a form of griefing, by the way). They initiate clan wars right in the middle of groups of new residents who are confused enough about SL as it is, then they have to deal with vamp wars? I mean, come on...don't you have any respect for anyone at all? You should declare newbie welcome areas as OFF LIMITS to your vamps. True, LL might not see the PV system as an issue, but if your vamps continue disrupting new residents experience, then might begin to take interest. Keira Linden even got to witness this firsthand last week. 

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Neuntoter Davidov wrote:

This forum is fun, there are people concerned about this system, but the question is: If there are other systems that do the same, because only attack this ?. There are some hidden interest?

because no other vampire system in SL relies on complete secrecy. No other vampire system in SL denies the victim a chance to run, fight back, or otherwise have the option to not participate. 

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Oberon Eames wrote:

 

...In the world of Progeny we actually work very hard at building bridges of communication between members of the world community...

 

Oh, i see. So that is why nearly every attempt of mine to communicate my concerns to progeny leadership are met with scorn, insults, laughter, or being ignored outright? yeah, thats building bridges...:matte-motes-bored: Lachiel himself evenm said that he doesn't care about non-players, other than the fact that they could, at some point, become players (at least that's what i got out of his comment). What "world sommunity" have you been trying to communicate with? It sure as hell aren't the quicks. 

Here is a challenge for you then, back up that claim with some real, tangible proof. Make a real effort to talk to us non-players about our concerns, and to try to see things from our point of view. The day i finally see something other than a condescending attitude coming from one of your diabolics or other leaders, is the day that i might actually start respecting a few of you. 

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I'll just say that there are several systems of vampires, they do exactly the same, in the terms that your criticisms. I think you're not well informed, so my previous post, regardless of this, I think your attitude is almost insane, to discuss something, you, does not affect you at all, and can only be explained if there are other interests hidden

(Translated by Google, I do not speak English, like others, do not speak my language)

 

Solo te voy a decir que hay varios sistemas de vampiros, que hacen exactamente lo mismo, en los términos que tu criticas. Yo pienso que tú no estás bien informada, por eso mi post anterior, independientemente de esto, pienso que vuestra actitud es casi demente, por discutir algo, que a vosotros, no os afecta en absoluto, y solo se explica, si hay otros intereses ocultos

(Traducido por Google, yo no hablo ingles, igual que otros, no hablan mi idioma)

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Neuntoter Davidov wrote:

I'll just say that there are several systems of vampires, they do exactly the same, in the terms that your criticisms. I think you're not well informed, so my previous post, regardless of this, I think your attitude is almost insane, to discuss something, you, does not affect you at all, and can only be explained if there are other interests hidden

(Translated by Google, I do not speak English, like others, do not speak my language)

 

 

well, if i ever discover what those systems are (some examples might help), and if they treat non-players the same as progeny does, then i'll be complaining about them as well, so don't feel special. You obviously haven;t bothered to take the time to either read what i have posted in here, or listened to me when we have talked in SL at Social Island..I have said many times exactly how progeny has "affected" me in tangible ways, and i'm not talking about the bites. Is there a reason why you and other progeny seem to be deliberately overlooking/ignoring the concerns i have brought up?

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CleoSertorii wrote:


Oberon Eames wrote:

 

...In the world of Progeny we actually work very hard at building bridges of communication between members of the world community...

 

Oh, i see. So that is why nearly every attempt of mine to communicate my concerns to progeny leadership are met with scorn, insults, laughter, or being ignored outright? yeah, thats building bridges...:matte-motes-bored: Lachiel himself evenm said that he doesn't care about non-players, other than the fact that they could, at some point, become players (at least that's what i got out of his comment). What "world sommunity" have you been trying to communicate with? It sure as hell aren't the quicks. 

Here is a challenge for you then, back up that claim with some real, tangible proof. Make a real effort to talk to us non-players about our concerns, and to try to see things from our point of view. The day i finally see something other than a condescending attitude coming from one of your diabolics or other leaders, is the day that i might actually start respecting a few of you. 

As disrespectful as are your actions toward a group of people who simply wish to roleplay in the matter in which they choose, without causing anyone any harm whatsoever (that can be tangibly proven), why should they care at all about garnering any sort of respect from you?  What they do is simply none of your business... you earn your scorn by making it so.

...Dres

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dres, please dont come in here and try to lecture anyone about disrespect. You and the other forum elites make a habit out of disrespecting anyone who's opinions you don't agree with. You are no different than any of the other people like Lachiel, Neuntoter, and Oberon, who completely ignore and disregard our concerns. As far as "tangible" proof, somehow i doubt you would acknowledge it even if you were on the recieving end of the abuse that i have talked about. You have no stake in this whatsoever, so why do you even bother coming in here and commenting? Yes, i know it is a public discussion forum, but i have personally seen you pop in and out of other threads and make the same sort of unnecessary (and unhelpful) comments. Why do you bother doing that if you aren't a troll? I mean really, the only time i have ever seen you post anything even vaugely respectful is when you are replying to one of the other elite forumites. As far as i am concerned, you are just as bad as the progeny, and for the same reasons...both of you create hostile environments where participating in any way results in attacks. I know you don't care, but personally, people like you make me sick. 

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Well now... I suppose you've gotten me all figured out.  And with access to such little an amount of information... you should be really proud of yourself.

...Dres

P.S. Um, I forget... can someone remind me who I have to see in order to renew my Forum Elite membership card?

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Yours doesn't auto-renew? Mine does, I think you have to check a specific box in your profile.

FORUM ELITE.PNG

If anyone can figure out what significance the numbers have, i will give them a gift.

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

Well now... I suppose you've gotten me all figured out.  And with access to such little an amount of information... you should be really proud of yourself.

...Dres

P.S. Um, I forget... can someone remind me who I have to see in order to renew my Forum Elite membership card?

*signs off on Dresden's Forum Elite membership card*  There!  It is good for another year.  You're welcome.

 

It is hard to believe this is still going years later, but I fail to see how this type of role play really impacts anyone that is not part of the Progeny system.  Someone stands near you, you have no idea anything is happening, nothing actually DOES happen to your avi, and the virtual/imaginary vampire gets to play whatever role he/she wants in his/her own head.  Last I heard fantasizing is not illegal or bad.  We ALL fantasize about one thing or another (no, please don't elaborate on your fantasies.  I really don't want to know how much of a pervert you are.)

If you hang out on Social Island or where ever, you have choices - 

  1. Take a step further away
  2. Log out
  3. TP to another of the million locations available in SL
  4. Publicly palm that wooden stake you carry in your purse and stake the **bleep**!
  5. Cause a big scene and start screaming in public chat about all the pretend vampires taking advantage of your defenseless avi.
  6. Come to the forums and announce that they can't have fun the way they want to because their fantasy life offends you in some way.

The choices seem to be endless

I say let them have their fun, but be warned if one is creeping my avi out by invading her personal space, I will choose option 4

 

:matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:

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Cinnamon Mistwood wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:

Well now... I suppose you've gotten me all figured out.  And with access to such little an amount of information... you should be really proud of yourself.

...Dres

P.S. Um, I forget... can someone remind me who I have to see in order to renew my Forum Elite membership card?

*signs off on Dresden's Forum Elite membership card*  There!  It is good for another year.  You're welcome.

 

I was wondering who Pep had delegated executive responsibility to in his temporary, albeit extended, absence.

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

Well now... I suppose you've gotten me all figured out.  And with access to such little an amount of information... you should be really proud of yourself.

...Dres

P.S. Um, I forget... can someone remind me who I have to see in order to renew my Forum Elite membership card?

Sorry, but I can't help you with that.    One of the perks of being part of the FIC is that LL deal with that sort of stuff for us.

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

Well now... I suppose you've gotten me all figured out.  And with access to such little an amount of information... you should be really proud of yourself.

...Dres

P.S. Um, I forget... can someone remind me who I have to see in order to renew my Forum Elite membership card?

Hey, I'm just following the advice of another forum sage who suggested that i do a bit of background research into the "players" who are regular posters in here. I did just that, and came up with my conclusion. Do i have you all figured out? Not likely, but i have seen enough to give me a general idea of how you operate on the forums.

Oh, and before i forget, I just wanted to mention that you have basically done the exact same thing to me as you accuse me of doing to you, which is making judgments about my motives and character with very little information. The difference is that you have posted FAR more often in the forums than I have, so I have much more data to work with.

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Cinnamon Mistwood wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:

Well now... I suppose you've gotten me all figured out.  And with access to such little an amount of information... you should be really proud of yourself.

...Dres

P.S. Um, I forget... can someone remind me who I have to see in order to renew my Forum Elite membership card?

*signs off on Dresden's Forum Elite membership card*  There!  It is good for another year.  You're welcome.

 

It is hard to believe this is still going years later, but I fail to see how this type of role play really impacts anyone that is not part of the Progeny system.  Someone stands near you, you have no idea anything is happening, nothing actually DOES happen to your avi, and the virtual/imaginary vampire gets to play whatever role he/she wants in his/her own head.  Last I heard fantasizing is not illegal or bad.  We ALL fantasize about one thing or another (no, please don't elaborate on your fantasies.  I really don't want to know how much of a pervert you are.)

If you hang out on Social Island or where ever, you have choices - 
  1. Take a step further away
  2. Log out
  3. TP to another of the million locations available in SL
  4. Publicly palm that wooden stake you carry in your purse and stake the **bleep**!
  5. Cause a big scene and start screaming in public chat about all the pretend vampires taking advantage of your defenseless avi.
  6. Come to the forums and announce that they can't have fun the way they want to because their fantasy life offends you in some way.

The choices seem to be endless

I say let them have their fun, but be warned if one is creeping my avi out by invading her personal space, I will choose option 4

 

:matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:

I suspect you fail to see how this RP (and i use the term very loosely) can "impact" anyone who isn;t part of the system, it likely because you haven't read most of my posts, and haven't had any direct experience with them. I have already repeatedly stated that the invisible bites are not my greatest concern with progeny. The main problem that i see in this thread is we have basically three groups of people...thiose who believe that progeny has some issues that need to be fixed, those who created progeny or are in high positions of leadership (and are therefore very biased in their support), and everybody else who makes comments without having any experience dealing with progeny inworld. It's all well and good for you to criticize our methods of dealing with them, but i would suggest that you get some actual experience before telling us how we should or should not deal with the problem.

So, let me address those points that you made...

1. stepping away doesn't always work, because if one of them is feeding, they either continue to follow you around, or they atach a follower script (which is a griefer object) to your avi, preventing you from getting away.

2. logging out sort of defeats the entire purpose of being in SL.

3. TP'ing to another location is always an option, and one that i take advantage of frequently. However, I don't really like the idea of being run out of one of my hangouts when the problem can be solved by the PV system creators.

4. Oh, trust me, if staking them (or being able to fight back in any way) was an option, I would be all for doing that. If they want to be able to RP feeding off of me, I would be more than happy to reciprocate by RP killing their worthless ***. Unfortunately, the PV system doesn't have a way to do that, short of their own Slayer system, which still isn't available to the public after two years.

5. I don't scream in public about the pretend vampires, but I do inform others of their presence. true, many people probably are like most in this thread...they don't care. However, there are some that do care, and they have a right to know about it.

6. If you read back through all of my posts in this thread (i know, i know, probably too much work and you can't be bothered), my purpose is to raise awareness of the issues and hopefully convince the PV creators to make a few minor changes, that could actually enhance their RP experience by adding a bit more of the realism that they claim to crave so much.

 

There are such things as principles, and I am very aware that many people don't believe principles exist in a "game" like SL. I don't generally criticize people for not having them, but at the same time, I don't believe it is right for those people to criticize those of us that DO have principles. Trust me, if PV vamps would just go on their merry way feeding in private, then i wouldn't have even half of the dislike for them that I do, but when they use their progeny status and RP as an excuse to abuse and disrupt, then I look on them as griefers, not RP'ers.

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CleoSertorii wrote:

1. stepping away doesn't always work, because if one of them is feeding, they either continue to follow you around, or they atach a follower script (which is a griefer object) to your avi, preventing you from getting away.

 I'm trying to visualise what you're describing and having difficulty.

You can't -- absent special cases involving RLV or Experience Tools -- "attach" anything to anyone without their consent and cooperation.  

You can -- assuming you have rezzing rights on that parcel and the parcel allows your objects to run scripts -- rez a follower object, but that simply (as the name suggests) follows the victim around.    You can -- again, subject to the parcel permissions -- cage people, and you can script a follower cage.  Is that what you mean?   

Being caged and/or being chased by a follower aren't, of course, common hazards other than maybe  in script-enabled sandboxes, because they are both old griefer tricks and any landowner with a grain of sense will set the land permissions to prevent them.    It certainly shouldn't be happening in most places.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


CleoSertorii wrote:

1. stepping away doesn't always work, because if one of them is feeding, they either continue to follow you around, or they atach a follower script (which is a griefer object) to your avi, preventing you from getting away.

 I'm trying to visualise what you're describing and having difficulty.

You can't -- absent special cases involving RLV or Experience Tools -- "attach" anything to anyone without their consent and cooperation.  

You can -- assuming you have rezzing rights on that parcel and the parcel allows your objects to run scripts -- rez a follower object, but that simply (as the name suggests) follows the victim around.    You can -- again, subject to the parcel permissions -- cage people, and you can script a follower cage.  Is that what you mean?   

Being caged and/or being chased by a follower aren't, of course, common hazards other than maybe  in script-enabled sandboxes, because they are both old griefer tricks and any landowner with a grain of sense will set the land permissions to prevent them.    It certainly shouldn't be happening in most places.

i honestly don't know how it works, but there are "followers"  that allow one avi to follow another one around no matter where they go, and even tp'ing out and back doesn't always work as the follower has some sort of auto-reaquire function. They also use "force hugs" that allow them to attach to your avatar in a hug pose. If these griefer items are activated outside of the "no scripts zone", it can be brought inside the no scripts area and used anyway. Many progeny use thes on their "victims" to keep themselves within feeding range. They also use it on eachother when doing their ground level clan wars. 

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Cinnamon Mistwood wrote:

I did play with the Progeny system for about a month a few years ago.  I got bored and never played again.  Have you tried it?

No, I have not played it personally, as I am not into being a vampire. I do, however, have several friends who used to play and left for various reasons, and i have also done some research on the subject, including listening to the progeny podcasts. 

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CleoSertorii wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:

Well now... I suppose you've gotten me all figured out.  And with access to such little an amount of information... you should be really proud of yourself.

...Dres

P.S. Um, I forget... can someone remind me who I have to see in order to renew my Forum Elite membership card?

Hey, I'm just following the advice of another forum sage who suggested that i do a bit of background research into the "players" who are regular posters in here. I did just that, and came up with my conclusion. Do i have you all figured out? Not likely, but i have seen enough to give me a general idea of how you operate on the forums.

Oh, and before i forget, I just wanted to mention that you have basically done the exact same thing to me as you accuse me of doing to you, which is making judgments about my motives and character with very little information. The difference is that you have posted FAR more often in the forums than I have, so I have much more data to work with.

I suggest you go back to that supposed sage and ask them to explain to you what it means to reply to the post and not the poster.

Every critique I've delt you here in this thread has been a direct result of what you yourself have written here in this thread.  Yes, I've made observations about your behavior (as described by you) and speculated about what would motivate someone to behave in such a manner.  That alone in no way equates to judging someones character as a whole.

I did admit to treating you harshly when you first started posting to this thread, having conflated you with Goose and Friends, who'd just started resorting to calling me names because they didn't like what I had to say to them about this specific situation.  I apologized to you for that and haven't lumped you in with them since.  I suppose that just wasn't drama-inducing enough for you to notice.

Perhaps if you'd concentrate more on how you operate on the forums than on how I do, you'd be a whole lot better off.

...Dres

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CleoSertorii wrote:

i honestly don't know how it works, but there are "followers"  that allow one avi to follow another one around no matter where they go, and even tp'ing out and back doesn't always work as the follower has some sort of auto-reaquire function. They also use "force hugs" that allow them to attach to your avatar in a hug pose. If these griefer items are activated outside of the "no scripts zone", it can be brought inside the no scripts area and used anyway. Many progeny use thes on their "victims" to keep themselves within feeding range. They also use it on eachother when doing their ground level clan wars. 

I'm still confused.    A follower, as the term is generally used, is simply an object containing a script that locks onto a particular avatar and then follows the avatar around the region.    Is that what you mean?

As to force hugs, the only way to do them without using Experience Tools is to have the victim give the script permission to animate her via a normal permissions dialog (normally under the impression she's consenting to a normal hug/kiss) and the script then keeps the permission.   That is a nuisance, certainly, but you do have to give the initial permission.    A complete stranger can't suddenly animate you without your prior consent (admittedly obtained by fraud and deceit).   If you complain to the landowner, they'll almost certainly ban whoever is using the device.

As to bringing items into no-script, no rez areas, the only way I can see that working is to attach the object to yourself and then drop it.   I don't know what happens then if the parcel is set (as it should be) to prohibit object entry.   

Be that as it may, you seem to be describing a special case of griefing using scripted objects.   We get a lot of that -- a lot of attempts at that, rather -- on the regions which I help manage, and, like any competent business-owners who want to attract and retain visitors -- we find it very simple to control using the normal land tools LL give us and a few security scripts. 

The only places I can see these vampiric exploits you describe working, in other words, are places most people would want to avoid since they are likely to be full of griefers anyway because the landowners aren't managing them properly.    

 

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Cinnamon Mistwood wrote:


Dresden Ceriano wrote:

Well now... I suppose you've gotten me all figured out.  And with access to such little an amount of information... you should be really proud of yourself.

...Dres

P.S. Um, I forget... can someone remind me who I have to see in order to renew my Forum Elite membership card?

*signs off on Dresden's Forum Elite membership card*  There!  It is good for another year.  You're welcome.

Yay... um, how do I get one of those non-expiring ones I like Drake has... or is he just more Elite than I?

 


Cinnamon Mistwood wrote:

It is hard to believe this is still going years later, but I fail to see how this type of role play really impacts anyone that is not part of the Progeny system.

It doesn't.  It never has.  Just because a handful of people come back to this thread to complain every so often, doesn't give any more legitimacy to their argument than it had when this thread was first posted oh, so many years ago.

I firmly believe that Progeny only affects those who consciously choose to be affected by it.  Sure, if you waltz into a sim full of people and extemporaneously announce that there are vampires trying to drain everyone of their blood (as if pretend vampires silently pretending to drain pretend blood from pretend people is the most egregious pretend thing ever), you're going to get a reaction.  What fun is simply going about your own business and letting other people go about theirs?  Where's the drama in that?

Some people are simply unable to comprehend that it's much more fruitful an endeavor to modify one's own behavior, than to try to force someone else (especially a group of them) to modify theirs.

...Dres *is most delusionally convinced that his invitation to join the FIC got lost in the mail*

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CleoSertorii wrote:


 

 

There are such things as principles, and I am very aware that many people don't believe principles exist in a "game" like SL. I don't generally criticize people for not having them, but at the same time, I don't believe it is right for those people to criticize those of us that DO have principles. Trust me, if PV vamps would just go on their merry way feeding in private, then i wouldn't have even half of the dislike for them that I do, but when they use their progeny status and RP as an excuse to abuse and disrupt, then I look on them as griefers, not RP'ers.

 

This paragraph pretty much sums up what is causing what you perceive as friction between you and several other people in this thread. First, I don't believe anyone here is criticizing you for having principles. Most of us have principles. You have been disagreed with, certainly, and disagreement can be felt as criticism (and is, by most people). But you have to learn to accept that not everyone is going to agree with everything you say. You can argue back all you want, but at that point is has nothing to do with criticism any longer; it's just a disagreement like any other.

This next is a two-parter; don't start getting steamed until you read both parts, please.

1. Most of us (myself included) think your irritation with the hidden bite thing is pretty silly and, since it in NO WAY even comes close to being a violation of any LL TOS, Rule of Conduct, or anything else (including most people's view of acceptable behavior), we naturally see your suggestion that someone do something about it equally silly. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

2. When Progeny "abuse and disrupt" you think they're griefers. We think so too! Anybody who pushes you or harrasses you repeatedly is a griefer (or an idiot; doesn't really matter which). But you don't form a posse and go after griefers. You just block and ignore, and if there are too many to keep up with you just GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. If you see something truly AR-worthy than use your right to AR. But let it go. That's right. Give up. Stay away from them. It's the only smart thing to do with griefers and it always has been. 

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