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Martin Emerald

Progeny Vampire System

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What you and so many others do not seem to grasp, is that just because you can get away with something, it dosn't make it right.

Look at it this way, if you call a gay person "queer" or a black man a "**bleep**"  or a Hispanic a "spick" and they do not hear you, is it still OK to do it?

This is what I have been trying, unsuccessfully I admit, to put across here. Sometimes a line is drawn by peoples own rational of what is right and wrong. To me, just because someone is not part of something should not make them targets.

OK, its just my opinion, but I am not alone in it. The Progeny game is, by default, unethical in its abuse of non players. As i have said, many, many times here, if Progeny players want to engage with non players then fine, but either RP the action as it was intended to be, giving the non player the chance to say yes or no to it, or stick to sucking just other players "blood". All we want is a choice, Is that really so hard for the PV morons to understand?

 

 

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

Look at it this way, if you call a gay person "queer" or a black man a "**bleep**"  or a Hispanic a "spick" and they do not hear you, is it still OK to do it?

Oh, ffs!  Racism and homophobia are actually harmful... vampire roleplay is not.

 


Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

All we want is a choice, Is that really so hard for the PV morons to understand?

Sorry, darling... you don't get a say in what goes on in other people's imagination.

...Dres

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Dres, you have proved many times that you cannot and will not ever understand what I wish to say, so why even bother to make these snide comments towards me on here?

My opinion is just that, mine, if you don't like it, tough, DARLING!

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I only commented because I take extreme issue with your attempt to equate the very real, actually harmful effects of homophobia and racism in the real world with your irrational opposition to pretend vampires in a pretend world.  If you wish to continue spewing crap like that, expect a response from me... otherwise, please, continue inhabiting the miserable existence of your own creation.

...Dres

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So let me get this straight Dres, what you are saying is that my analogy is not accurate because something that is in SL it is not real? Well damn, this is a strange thing to put across.....I mean, you play SL, are you not real? Am I real? Is anyone in SL real to you? I guess not, that is why you cannot accept that "people" there have feelings. You see where I am coming from? Maybe I was a little harsh with my analogy, but I wanted to avoid the whole rape thing from previous posts again, but at the same time still wanted to make my point in the only way I felt I could. The simple fact remains that there are people in SL, like me, who want to have a simple choice as to who our avatars are interacted with. Is that really so hard to understand?

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

 The simple fact remains that there are people in SL, like me, who want to have a simple choice as to who our avatars are interacted with. Is that really so hard to understand?

I'm not Dresden, obviously, but I am pretty sure you made that specific point, opinion, pages ago. People do not agree with your opinion, which was also stated, in numerous ways, pages ago. 

Your analogy was not just harsh, it was wrong, on all levels, and likely extremely offensive to far more than one person. Being fake biten, without your knowledge, is not even remotely the same as hate speech, discrimination, racism, and lots of other things too. Especially since one is harmful as a whole, tot he entire human species, while the other is merely an annoyance suffered by some, but has no overall effect on the rest of humanity.

(and no that doesn't discount your own personal feelings, but, as you said, people need to draw the line somewhere, and personal annoyance is not the same as being universally offensive)

But if you really want analogies, or comparisons, I'll bring back up one I already posted which you refused to answer. If I, one day in passing, decide during a private conversation between myself and another avatar, that I am going to pretend ot kick you, but I don't tell you, in fact, I don't even actually go near you, nor do I carry out the physical action in local chat. I choose to "rp" this particular action, completely and utterly without your knowledge, and add your avatar name to my "running list of drive-by kicking victims"......Are you going to feel the same way as you do about these bites?

If you want an actual discussion about the topic, and compare situations wherein the feeling would be the same, you need to remain somewhat on topic and use situations that can actually BE compared.

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I can see your point Tari, but what you seem to miss is the fact that most Progeny players love to "inform" you of other PV players actions, just not their own. I know I am never gonna win a debate with any of you self appointed protectors of Progeny, but I sure as hell ain't gonna just shut up and roll over like you all want me to do, sorry about that!

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

I can see your point Tari, but what you seem to miss is the fact that most Progeny players love to "inform" you of other PV players actions, just not their own. I know I am never gonna win a debate with any of you self appointed protectors of Progeny, but I sure as hell ain't gonna just shut up and roll over like you all want me to do, sorry about that!

"self appointed protectors of Progeny"?

It's this sort of baseless accusation that will prevent you from ever making progress here. None of us had ever heard of Progeny until you arrived. As I recall, the creator of Progeny presented his case, and did not refute the claims you made. I suspect he understood that he couldn't refute something that he didn't witness. So, there was no rebuttal to your complaint, by us or anyone else. And yet you've determined that we're self appointed defenders of Progeny?

This would not be the first time I've watched someone lose an argument in which the other side never showed up. Take a step back and consider the possibility that you are your own worst enemy.

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

I can see your point Tari, but what you seem to miss is the fact that most Progeny players love to "inform" you of other PV players actions, just not their own. I know I am never gonna win a debate with any of you self appointed protectors of Progeny, but I sure as hell ain't gonna just shut up and roll over like you all want me to do, sorry about that!

You're still barking up the wrong tree with your accusations. The only things I am a self-appointed protector of include my family, those I love, my own personal beliefs and my opinions. I don't give a rat's patoot about protecting any RP. In fact, as I already stated, I am not even very fond of most RP, regardless of how, why, or by whom it is carried out. It's not my cup of tea.

Still, I have no qualms having an adult discussion, and conversation with someone who has an opposing view, provided of course they can do so intelligibly and with a modicum of understanding of hw discussions actually work.

I didn't tell you to shut up, or to take it. I may have countered some of your points, but I find absolutely nothing I said here to be derogatory towards you, despite the fact that I don't agree one little bit with your methodology, and if it were possible to agree even less with your analogies, I would.

Your approach is absolutely horrendous, and that is precisely why others are not going to understand your position. We don't have to agree with you, to understand why you have formed the opinions you have. But we certainly cannot be expected to understand them when you go off half-roostered during a discussion.

Do I see merit in your madness-so to speak(I am not saying you're mad), perhaps on some level I do, even if I disagree. But it is not everyone else who is making your position difficult to understand, it is yours, and yours alone. Language is a powerful tool, or can be anyway. 

I'm not fond of the "neener neener, I'm not listening, I'm right, you're wrong, I can throw a tantrum if I want to" approach. My kids stopped using it years ago, and they're still children. You may not want your approach to come across this way, but it very much does, and you're only making it worse.

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So, here we are, over 3 years since Martin's original post about the Progeny System and it seems that it is still a subject that causes division. The PV game has not moved on in any shape or form, the game is still in closed Beta, things that were promised as "in development" are still just a pipe dream in the minds of the players. Role play is still limited to within the system as these creatures go about their daily feeding rituals at meeting points and newbie areas. In fact, it seems that even the PV players themselves are abandoning the game and choosing another Graves Designs system, one called Angels and Demons, which is, as far as I can tell, Progeny without the bad publicity! (its always nicer to be "blessed" rather than "bitten" don't you think?)

So where do we go from here? To be frank, I do not know. I have grown tired of commenting here, due the Trolls that seem to serve no purpose other than to shout down anyone's opinions that do not match their own limited understanding of how the subject of choice in a game should be in any way important.

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this is the dumbest thead ever.

 

you all should be ashamed.

 

next you gonna want LL to ban unothorized profile readings and key strokes..

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ok, so let me get this straight...Lazar actually admits that non-players are justified in feeling violated when they become aware that they have been bitten, and it seems that Lachile sort of agrees with that. The question i have though is this...does Lachiel actually give a damn about non-players? or os this 20% thing just meant to protect their own reputations? As honestly as i can say this, I would have far less of an problem with progeny if they would just put a few features in place...one, some method of protection from bites for people who are aware of progeny, similar to the garlic necklace that BL uses. Maybe Lachiel can finally issue a personal dove device to non-players who request it. Its not like that would deplete their food supply. Second, the ability to bring complaints into the progeny court system for progeny players who abuse non-players...and im not just talking about the secret biting. They seem very willing to discipline their own people for things like masquerade breaks, but they have NOTHING in place to protect non-players against progeny who abuse them. Lachiel one time said that was an issue for LL to handle through the AR systsm, but he should also realise that the AR system is all but useless.

randomly reviving and shading 20% of all non-players really does nothing except to add another layer of dishonesty into what they are already doing. They will still be biting people without their knowledge, and they will still be able to abuse non-players who have no recourse. Seriously, how difficult would it be for Lachiel to give a dove device to less than 1% of the entire SL population (those who are aware of progeny and dont wish to participate), or to give us a voice in their discipline system? I would like to hear from Lachiel directly as to why he can't accomodate us. If he is worried about progeny getting a bad reputation (oops, too late), then why not do some things that can help?

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I think the main problem that Lachiel has, is his own inability to move the game forward. Now I would be the last person to try to take away what an outstanding achievement it has been to produce a game system of any type, but he must by now realise that he is stagnating. He can see the weak areas, even acknowledges some of them, but his abilities to code are I think rather limited, and that is why he needs the help of others.

The devices that could be used for personal safety are never going to happen, and the reason is clear, it is because Progeny players are afraid. They know that if such things are sanctioned then their lives (or deaths, lol) become that much harder. I think the fear of actually having to do some "work" like hunting a victim, is a very big problem for the majority of PV players.

It a shame that Lachiel, given that he likes the publicity that this forum provides, does not give us non players the chance to talk with him. He is clearly an educated person, you would think that he would see that maybe an open debate on PV and its interaction with non players could actually be a good thing for his system. 

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Cleo, 

"randomly reviving and shading 20% of all non-players really does nothing except to add another layer of dishonesty"

What do you think of the "honesty" of this statement taken from the Ravens Claw website?

We openly accept all for whom and what they are, greeting them with respect and fairness. Though our ranks contain many of what the unenlightened would term 'monsters', we do not behave as such. We are polite and well mannered. Our vampires and lycans do not feed from unwilling victims.

 

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tari Landar wrote

Your analogy was not just harsh, it was wrong, on all levels, and likely extremely offensive to far more than one person. Being fake biten, without your knowledge, is not even remotely the same as hate speech, discrimination, racism, and lots of other things too. Especially since one is harmful as a whole, tot he entire human species, while the other is merely an annoyance suffered by some, but has no overall effect on the rest of humanity.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I feel I must commend you on what I read as an eloquent, thoughtful, intelligent statement. It is a pleasure to see a point of vew that is not spewing vitrolic minutia.

 Thank You

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It matters not one jot how one's words are painted on the canvas of life, it is the feelings behind those words and the person's actions taken that make a difference. It is good to see the mighty Oberon join this thread, not before time in my opinion.

 

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The Vanatori and MEA Development in SecondLife is to begin the process of creating Progeny Countermeasures.

I am looking for technical information that anyone can forward to me pertaining to Grave Designs, Progeny HUDs, LSL Channels used by the application and all other technical information.

The information will be reviewed and used to create shields, jammers, scramblers,offsensive weapons and other objects both for a Land (aka Security Orbs) and as wearable HUDs and attachments.

Contact me directly in SL @ TiganMica

You may also forward any information to a Vanatori (we wear badges indicating we are the Vanatori) and the information will be sent on to me and the MEA Development Teams.  A common place to find us in SL is at Social Island 1 at the Welcome Circle anlong with other social HUBs and common gathering points of the Progeny where they gather to feed..

It is the intent of the Vanatori to make a point to the Progeny that the days of hiding in the shadows feeding on those that are unaware have come to an end.  Current MEA tools show us who you Progeny are.  Now we will begin the systematic erradication of your infestation.

 

Tigan Mica

Vanatori Troka Mica

Envoy of the Vanatori

Vanator 1st Lieutenant, Trokia Caste   

 

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I can only hope that all parties involved are eradicated, since none seems able to spell the word.

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Progeny Countermeasures  LOL that's hilarious.

Though any progeny vampire caught sharing private system information with non-players will be banned from the system.

-- Now?  do I care about non-players?

I do and I don't.   I see all non-players as potential players, so I do care to some degree.

But let me be absolutely clear.

The Status of any given avatar in Progeny has no bearing on you, your avatar or anything else unless you are a player of the system,  this is why LL doesn’t care, because it doesn’t matter.   Only if you want to play progeny does it matter and then getting your status changed is ... well easy.

So.. if you are all bunged up become some group imaginary vampires, imagined that one of them may or may not have imagined biting your imaginary person because you were all imagining your own little imaginary worlds in the same imaginary space, then you my friend have bigger problems that some game you don’t play.

If you don’t like progeny, don’t play it, if you don’t like progeny players don’t associate with them. If you want to be a Real Vampire within the imaginary virtual context of Second Life then join us you are welcome. BUT, don’t go around bothering the non-players that is not only not the point, it’s against the rules ( not sure why that is dishonest LOL but ok sure why not ).

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Lachiel Vaher wrote:

Progeny Countermeasures  LOL that's hilarious.

Though any progeny vampire caught sharing private system information with non-players will be banned from the system.

-- Now?  do I care about non-players?

I do and I don't.   I see all non-players as potential players, so I do care to some degree.

But let me be absolutely clear.

The Status of any given avatar in Progeny has no bearing on you, your avatar or anything else unless you are a player of the system,  this is why LL doesn’t care, because it doesn’t matter.   Only if you want to play progeny does it matter and then getting your status changed is ... well easy.

So.. if you are all bunged up become some group imaginary vampires, imagined that one of them may or may not have imagined biting your imaginary person because you were all imagining your own little imaginary worlds in the same imaginary space, then you my friend have bigger problems that some game you don’t play.

The word you are looking for is Virtual, not imaginary. I am fairly sure I haven't imagined all the time and moeny spent in SL. If it was imaginary I would have much more money in my bank account.

If you don’t like progeny, don’t play it, if you don’t like progeny players don’t associate with them. If you want to be a
Real Vampire
within the imaginary virtual context of Second Life then join us you are welcome. BUT, don’t go around bothering the non-players that is not only not the point, it’s against the rules ( not sure why that is dishonest LOL but ok sure why not ).

Can we talk about the bold words here... Real Vampire... What makes the Progeny system players Real Vampires as opposed to all other Vampire RPs? Sneaking about, biting people who have no idea that they have been bitten or even the slightest way to "defend" against the Real Vampire. Yeah, sounds like real  vampire RP to me. "Let's sit in a mall and bite everyone that comes in." Whoo, we are havin fun now.

 

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Drake Said

"The word you are looking for is Virtual, not imaginary."

I can not resist...... Drake look up virtual in Technology and you will find.

"Simulated; performing the functions of something that isn't really there. An imaginative child's doll may be a virtual playmate. 
Opposite of real or physical.

 

 

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