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Martin Emerald

Progeny Vampire System

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it would appear the des has not been given permission form his Mistress to have feelings or basic understanding of other sl users feelings or throughts, Perhaps she needs to take some time to train the "boi"

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i repeat a simple question you seem not to be able to answer.

"WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO ABOUT THOSE "YOUR MEMBERS" HAVE GANGED UP ON AND KILLED OF, PEOPLE NOT INVOLVED IT THIS PATHETIC POWER GAME"?

ALSO ARE YOU GOING TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN FAILURE TO POLICE THIS HATED SYSTEM OR NOT?

BE A MAN ADMIT YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO BE THE ON INCHARGE, SO WHAT YOU MAY HAVE AN ABILITY TO DEVLOPE SOMETHING "EVEN IF AS  YOU KEEP BANGING ON ABOUT IS STILL IN BETA AND SO NOT RIGHT" 

THUS PROVING YOUR DEVELOPING SKILLS IN THAT AREA ARE ALSO LACKING IN SOME WAY, STOP PRETENDING YOUR SOMETHING YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT

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"SO:  if you hate the system,,, hate me,  if you love the system, love me.   I don't really care which,  just spell my name correctly :-)".......Well LATCHIEL,I will do that when you start spell checking your somewhat erratic answers! lol

Anyway, to the point in hand. Mud slinging back and forth, lol

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

"SO:  if you hate the system,,, hate me,  if you love the system, love me.   I don't really care which,  just spell my name correctly :-)".......Well LATCHIEL,I will do that when you start spell checking your somewhat erratic answers! lol

Anyway, to the point in hand. Mud slinging back and forth, lol

Snowgoose, could you provide some evidence of Lachiel's mudslinging? I've yet to see any. Nor have I seen evidence that his answers are erratic.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

 

Unfortunately, you don't walk your talk. Not only are Dres and I not worth your time, but the Progeny folks who've annoyed you aren't either. As you continue to engage them, you provide them all the fuel they need to continue annoying you. Until you learn not to spend time on people who aren't worth it, things will not improve.

But I can understand why you don't actually take Snow's advice. She doesn't either.

;-).

excuse me? I have decided that dres isnt worth my time because he is, in my opinion, a troll. I don't consider you to be one (at least not yet) , so i'll still read what you post. I have already explained in detail why the progeny are still a problem for me and why i wont simply ignore them. I can't simply avoid the progeny because they show up in many of the places that i enjoy spending time at, and i refuse to allow them to run me out of a sim.

That last comment of yours is probably the most trollish thing i have seen you post, primarily because it is sarcastic and more than a bit judgemental. Snow advised me to ignore DRES, which i have done. You might have noticed that he hasn't posted in here yet since i said that, and since i havent even had the opportunity to test my decision,  im really not understanding how you can say im not taking Snow' s advice.

The thing that really bothers me in this thread is that the people who do not agree with our point of view seem to automatically dismiss us as being irrational, unless we can somehow "convince" them with what they consider to be a " rational"  argument. The problem is, they dont think we are rational in the first place, so it would be impossible for us to make any argument that seems rational by their standards, no matter what we do. They also do not realise that we aren't trying to convince them of anything, or bring them over to our side. This is a community forum, a place to talk, ask questions, birng things to people's attention, express concerns, vent, and yes, even debate. However, not all topics are an outright debate, nor does every post need to be all about who is right and who is wrong.

I respect the viewpoint of people who do not think that progeny is a problem, because obviously for them it isnt, and im not going to try to convince them that it should be. All i wish is that they would likewise respect MY viewpoint, even if they dont understand it, or agree with it. People like Dres dont seem to take into account things like feelings or principles, and he doesnt have to, but it would be nice if they could drop the subtle insults, and the condescending attitude. Different is not wrong.

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I think you make a good point about how people who don't see your point of view are going to be hard to win over to it.

I understand that you and some others are genuinely upset about the activities of these Progeny people, but, as an outsider, I equally genuinely find it difficult to understand what the problem is.

As I've mentioned, I'm involved in running a large estate of entertainment sims and I'm very aware of the sort of problems our staff have to deal with day-to-day.    We have people trying to rez griefing objects for the hell of it, or harassing other visitors in various ways, be it by swearing at everyone in voice or insulting them in chat or distributing griefing objects or begging or wanting to bite or claw them, or wearing particle emitters that appear to emit bodily fluids from every orifice, or child avatars who want to explore our sex sims or space robots who want to visit Gor  ...  the list is endless. 

Compared to these obvious problems, people hanging around quietly wearing their invisible fangs and saying to each other in IMs things like, "Mwahh!   I am a fearsome vampire who's just bitten Innula and she didn't notice!  And I can go out in sunlight without sparkling!"  come very low down the list of priorities.

 

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CleoSertorii wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

 

Unfortunately, you don't walk your talk. Not only are Dres and I not worth your time, but the Progeny folks who've annoyed you aren't either. As you continue to engage them, you provide them all the fuel they need to continue annoying you. Until you learn not to spend time on people who aren't worth it, things will not improve.

But I can understand why you don't actually take Snow's advice. She doesn't either.

;-).

excuse me? I have decided that dres isnt worth my time because he is, in my opinion, a troll. I don't consider you to be one (at least not yet) , so i'll still read what you post. I have already explained in detail why the progeny are still a problem for me and why i wont simply ignore them. I can't simply avoid the progeny because they show up in many of the places that i enjoy spending time at, and i refuse to allow them to run me out of a sim.

That last comment of yours is probably the most trollish thing i have seen you post, primarily because it is sarcastic and more than a bit judgemental. Snow advised me to ignore DRES, which i have done. You might have noticed that he hasn't posted in here yet since i said that, and since i havent even had the opportunity to test my decision,  im really not understanding how you can say im not taking Snow' s advice.

The thing that really bothers me in this thread is that the people who do not agree with our point of view seem to automatically dismiss us as being irrational, unless we can somehow "convince" them with what they consider to be a " rational"  argument. The problem is, they dont think we are rational in the first place, so it would be impossible for us to make any argument that seems rational by their standards, no matter what we do. They also do not realise that we aren't trying to convince them of anything, or bring them over to our side. This is a community forum, a place to talk, ask questions, birng things to people's attention, express concerns, vent, and yes, even debate. However, not all topics are an outright debate, nor does every post need to be all about who is right and who is wrong.

I respect the viewpoint of people who do not think that progeny is a problem, because obviously for them it isnt, and im not going to try to convince them that it should be. All i wish is that they would likewise respect MY viewpoint, even if they dont understand it, or agree with it. People like Dres dont seem to take into account things like feelings or principles, and he doesnt have to, but it would be nice if they could drop the subtle insults, and the condescending attitude. Different is not wrong.

I've been online for 27 years, seven of them here, and seen these kinds of skirmishes countless times. The online world is full of asshats who are powered by interaction of any kind. Too often I've seen a "fight fire with fire" mentality that simply increases the chances that everything gets burned to the ground. 

Feelings are something we can have significant control over, and in this case, I don't believe the affected are working hard enough to understand and alter those feelings. If I were to worry about the secret machinations in the minds of the people around me, I'd never have time to think my own nefarious thoughts.

I probably do have difficulty understanding the anger of people who feel their humanity is threatened because a character they've hoisted in a virtual world is the subject of someone else's game play. Google plays their knowledge of me for financial gain every day, as does the local market which prints eerily prescient advertisements on the back of my receipts. Yet there isn't a single resident of SL who really knows terribly much about RL me. I won't be bothered by people who might gather invented information about Madelaine McMasters. It makes more sense to take care in the crafting of Madelaine McMasters. I apply exactly the same reasoning in RL.

If I can stick to my plan, ten years from now nobody will be able to find a trail of abusive, irrational, hyperbolic behavior in Maddy's name. They'll certainly be able to find a trail of complaints about Maddy, but with any luck those will come from people who have left abusive, irrational, hyperbolic trails of their own.

I may have inappropriately lumped you in with Snowgoose, RevengingAngel1 and LadyShad0wz Greymoon. I apologize for that. But I will ask you to consider whether the rants, threats and insults from the other Progeny "critics" have helped or harmed your cause. Where I come from, when a tactic isn't working, you abandon it. If your kitchen helper is breaking dishes, you send him to watch television.

In general, the forum folks are not terribly fond of vampire games. We've lampooned LL's efforts to promote them and thrashed annoying Bloodlines proponents. So we were probably at least a little predisposed to sympathize with anyone complaining about vampiric asshats. Yet those who brought Progeny to light here have done little more (for me at least) than create some sympathy for the game's creator. That was not your (collective) intent, so isn't it worth considering what went wrong?

The forum and many of us in it have been here for years, so we're unmoved by new accusations concerning our behavior. We are all little devils that we know, and you (collectively) are little devils we don't know. This is true in any established social circle, including many of the crowded sims where Progeny histrionics might play out. If the Progeny folk are able to consistently inhabit popular places while annoying only a few people, it may be that most people have no issue with them. Those that do feed the inflammation that eventually results in pain.

Take ibuprofen?

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

I think you make a good point about how people who don't see your point of view are going to be hard to win over to it.

I understand that you and some others are genuinely upset about the activities of these Progeny people, but, as an outsider, I equally genuinely find it difficult to understand what the problem is.

As I've mentioned, I'm involved in running a large estate of entertainment sims and I'm very aware of the sort of problems our staff have to deal with day-to-day.    We have people trying to rez griefing objects for the hell of it, or harassing other visitors in various ways, be it by swearing at everyone in voice or insulting them in chat or distributing griefing objects or begging or wanting to bite or claw them, or wearing particle emitters that appear to emit bodily fluids from every orifice, or child avatars who want to explore our sex sims or space robots who want to visit Gor  ...  the list is endless. 

Compared to these obvious problems, people hanging around quietly wearing their invisible fangs and saying to each other in IMs things like,
"Mwahh!   I am a fearsome vampire who's just bitten Innula and she didn't notice!  And I can go out in sunlight without sparkling!"
 come very low down the list of priorities.

 

That's not quite what I said.

If you only knew.

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

I wasn't referring to
his
mudslinging, but that of others. As to his erratic answers, I refer to his spelling, both here and on his own website and twitter feed. ok?

Misspelling in an answer is not the same as an erratic answer. While I do appreciate good spelling, that's icing on the cake of civil, sensible behavior. So far here, that's what I've seen from Lachiel.

It was not clear from your previous post that Lachiel was excluded from your mudslinging accusation. He is, I think, the only person on the Progeny side of this discussion.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


In general, the forum folks are not terribly fond of vampire games. We've lampooned LL's efforts to promote them and thrashed annoying Bloodlines proponents. So we were probably at least a little predisposed to sympathize with anyone complaining about vampiric asshats.


It was amazing how some one charged with "new user retention" could do such a first class job of alienating everyone.  Some of these folks may not know that at one time there was a Section of this forum dedicated to Vampires and Bloodlines was invited to kind of 'host' it.  Someone at the Lab forgot how much Bloodlines was hated.  And they weren't just vague enigmatic complaints.  We could clearly articulate all the harassment that had happenned. 

So yes in general we are not very vampire friendly here.  And to any vamp who would complain about it I say, "suck it up," part of the story line is that it's human nature to hate vampires.  So they've nothing to complain about.

And yet, despite our disdain for Vamps we don't find ourselves very sympathetic with the OP's position.  Our attitude is it ain't worth the fuss.  Far as I'm concerned Progeny ain't bothering anyone.  So let them play their silly game.  It's only a problem if you make it into one.

 


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


The forum and many of us in it have been here for years, so we're unmoved by new accusations concerning our behavior. We are all little devils that we know, and you (collectively) are little devils we don't know.

This is true.  To us old devils it is a very rare thing that anyone comes here now with something new.   Some things have been discussed to death so many times it can almost get boring.  But it's not that I (and I think mostly 'we') want to discourage anyone from posting.  But sometimes it's hard not to say that their divine light revelation has already been beaten to death.  And then there are the posts from some people who you wonder how they manage to get out of bed every morning and you pray they are not allowed to breed. 

 


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

 


 This is true in any established social circle, including many of the crowded sims where Progeny histrionics might play out. If the Progeny folk are able to consistently inhabit popular places while annoying only a few people, it may be that most people have no issue with them. Those that do feed the inflammation that eventually results in pain.

 

Yep

 


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Take ibuprofen?

Prescription strength. 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

I think you make a good point about how people who don't see your point of view are going to be hard to win over to it.

I understand that you and some others are genuinely upset about the activities of these Progeny people, but, as an outsider, I equally genuinely find it difficult to understand what the problem is.

As I've mentioned, I'm involved in running a large estate of entertainment sims and I'm very aware of the sort of problems our staff have to deal with day-to-day.    We have people trying to rez griefing objects for the hell of it, or harassing other visitors in various ways, be it by swearing at everyone in voice or insulting them in chat or distributing griefing objects or begging or wanting to bite or claw them, or wearing particle emitters that appear to emit bodily fluids from every orifice, or child avatars who want to explore our sex sims or space robots who want to visit Gor  ...  the list is endless. 

Compared to these obvious problems, people hanging around quietly wearing their invisible fangs and saying to each other in IMs things like, "Mwahh!   I am a fearsome vampire who's just bitten Innula and she didn't notice!  And I can go out in sunlight without sparkling!"  come very low down the list of priorities.

 

I actually do see why many people don't understand our point of view, because as you say, a few people hanging around a sim apparently doing nothing isn't much of a problem when compared to normal griefers. In most circumstances, i would totally agree with you. My motives for being against progeny as a system might be a bit different from the others here who also object to it, but we do have enough in common to be on the same "side", for lack of a better term. I have mentioned this before, but if all that a progeny vampire ever did was to virtually bite me without my knowledge, then it would still bother me as a matter of principle, but it would not be enough to make me want to go an a campaign against their system. They stepped it up from being an RP to real griefing when they start to assault an avi for doing nothing more than talking about it. They have done it to me, and also to others. Vampire RP isnt a problem, but griefing is.

My entire point is that the griefing exists as a result of the "rules" regarding the masquerade in Progeny, and a lack of any disciplinary system that can protect non-players. Progeny players can be taken to "court" and even banned for assaulting OTHER progeny players, but they can't be banned for doing the same thing to a non-player. If you arent a part of their system, then you dont matter at all. LL also either cant or wont do anything about it because of the way the AR proceedure works, so we have NO recourse. Their system encourages some of their players to threaten and physically assault people who talk about progeny openly, by making it a "rule" to never break masquerade. Some of these people are so immersed in their RP (or whatever they want to call it), that they feel threatened by outsiders having knowledge that they even exist. Or, they are just griefers anyway, and use the progeny system to their advantage.

Let me make this perfectly clear...i am NOT against vampires, or roleplay, or even against progeny as a concept. I am also not really in favor of blanket bans against anyone associated with progeny, because as it has been pointed out, not all progeny are bad people, and many of them are really just trying to enjoy their RP. I AM  against the lack of any ability to opt out, or defend against them, whether it is virtual biting, or griefing assaults. I am against the lack of any sort of protections for non-players, and the lack of a discipline system that deals with progeny that abuse others. I feel that the biggest failure on the part of the progeny creators is that their system can promote the idea that non-players arent important, arent even people, but are nothing more than a food source. What i want is to raise awareness of how progeny works, and the faults within the system. if enough people know about it, and make enough noise, then just maybe, changes can be made.

 

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Thanks for lumping me with Snowgoose and RA1, but apparently clueless about me. I only gave insight about certain things with progeny, and their lack of Role-playing. I agreed with those that felt they should have the opition to be left out of their little game. As I've at a time or two hated being apart of Bloodlines as well because of the bad reputation that it had gotten in the past when I have read the older forums before garlic. I got labeled a griefer even though I never sent a bite request unless it was someone I knew in my old horde, but then I didn't even do that. I saved enough lindens and bought my blood before getting my forever amulet. I have been online since the early 90's when it was all text based chat rooms. Knew of SL, hell probably even have a forgotten name that is older then my one alt I found a few months after creating LadyShad0wz. No I won't give it out, because it's a name I keep hidden from the world. I use it for storage only now. I've lost friends due to Progeny, but have gained them back after leaving that horrible game. Yes that game like so many others can destroy friendships when they can't stop RL attacking in a RP scene. But like so many other SIMs I've visited in the past, the RP starts and then stops once they forget to seperate themselves from their character they create, or lack of creativity. Who is LadyShad0wz Greymoon now? No one, it's just a name that I log into SL with to check offlines, read forums, reply and then I go back to my RL Name and forget this world even exists. Even my Star War characters have names, some even a back story that I play out in the game, but over all, my RP days in SL stopped when I decided to detach myself from a game. Yes I now see SL as a game that so many will play cause they do NOT respect the people behind the avatar anymore. I feel for the ones that can not seperate themselves from this anymore because at one time I was one of those people until I left cause of RL issues, I thought I had friends, but in the admist of it all. I found out, I was just another name on someone's list that was it. Some of the people I've met while Djing became more then just a random friend in my SL list, they made it to my FB page where it has my SL display name Shadowz Greymoon (Shadowz Dragosani Brooks) but has my RL info listed on it. Yes I have a RL FB too, but don't use.

 

Random Facts to be known. The internet once named Arpanet was created roughly around 1969, the internet known as the World Wide Web wasn't created until 1989, but wasn't released out for others until around 1991.

 

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/05/the-first-website-ever-made/

http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/internet-world-wide-web-are-not-same-thing-n51011

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CleoSertorii wrote:


 I feel that the biggest failure on the part of the progeny creators is that their system can promote the idea that non-players arent important, arent even people, but are nothing more than a food source. What i want is to raise awareness of how progeny works, and the faults within the system. if enough people know about it, and make enough noise, then just maybe, changes can be made. 


but isnt that how vampires actual do see humans. as a food source

has really only been since TV shows like Angel and Twilight that vampires have been given the previous unnatural (unvampirey) ability to empathise with their food

a vampire (the creature of legend) has no empathy. None. nada. Is a creature on the same level as a mosquito. That a person playing a vampire might imagine or wish it otherwise is a bit delusional. You a mosquito dude !!! And your relevance to me is exactly the same. No matter how much you the mosquito might wish/dream it otherwise. Own your reality dude!!

+

ps. If I am on rez land and a mosquito tries to fly/collide my avatar then I will swat them with prims.  If the mosquito just buzz round away over by the side and then giggles to themself: I got you I got you

then you never got nothing you big wuss. Come over here and try bump me and see what you got (:

 

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irihapeti wrote:


 


but isnt that how vampires actual do see humans. as a food source

has really only been since TV shows like Angel and Twilight that vampires have been given the previous unnatural (unvampirey) ability to empathise with their food

a vampire (the creature of legend) has no empathy. None. nada. Is a creature on the same level as a mosquito. That a person playing a vampire might imagine or wish it otherwise is a bit delusional. You a mosquito dude !!! And your relevance to me is exactly the same. No matter how much you the mosquito might wish/dream it otherwise. Own your reality dude!!

 


 

well that would be just fine IF they were real vampires, but this goes far beyond any RP scenario, as i have been trying to explain for quite some time. I don't know how often i keep having to point this out, but i am a person, not a fast food meal. These people are NOT real vampires, and some RP can be taken way too far.

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CleoSertorii wrote:


irihapeti wrote:


 

but isnt that how vampires actual do see humans. as a food source

has really only been since TV shows like Angel and Twilight that vampires have been given the previous unnatural (unvampirey) ability to empathise with their food

a vampire (the creature of legend) has no empathy. None. nada. Is a creature on the same level as a mosquito. That a person playing a vampire might imagine or wish it otherwise is a bit delusional. You a mosquito dude !!! And your relevance to me is exactly the same. No matter how much you the mosquito might wish/dream it otherwise. Own your reality dude!!

 

 

well that would be just fine IF they were real vampires, but this goes far beyond any RP scenario, as i have been trying to explain for quite some time. I don't know how often i keep having to point this out, but i am a person, not a fast food meal. These people are NOT real vampires, and some RP can be taken way too far.

But that's the thing.

What exactly are they sucking out of you?

Nothing as far as I can see.

And yet your choosing to put your life's blood into this.

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What we, or anyone, for that matter, put our "life's blood" into is not the issue here, or rather it shouldn't be. How anyone spends their time campaigning for or against something should not be your concern.

But from reading some of your and the other "contributors" posts to other forums I have got a good idea of what you want. The word Troll has been used but I will not use that, instead I will let people look at profiles and view your other comments to make their own minds up about how "helpful" you are on any of these forums.

Again I will state simply that the purpose of my comments here are to raise awareness of a system that I personally do not agree with in either its ethics and gameplay or its continued beta status. 

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

 The word Troll has been used but I will not use that, instead I will let people look at profiles and view your other comments to make their own minds up about how "helpful" you are on any of these forums.

Again I will state simply that the purpose of my comments here are to raise awareness of a system that I personally do not agree with in either its ethics and gameplay or its continued beta status. 

the readers already got it the first like 100 times you raised it

is not like you need to keep saying it over and over and over. and then getting miffed when hardly anyone actual cares about somebody else imagining that they are a blood sucking mosquito

you actual trolling yourself now. What you said above is a troll. Unlike you I will not wimp it. I will call it what it actual is

 

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Trolling myself? hmmmm, a strange thing to say, but I can see from your 700+ posts on various topics that you yourself enjoy the sound of your own words!

However, leaving that aside, you seem to have a problem that I am still commenting here and getting views to this thread. Is that a problem for you?

It was and still is my intention to continue to raise peoples awareness of the Progeny system, if that is boring for you then I am sorry, but it will not stop me posting here, even if it is just to repeat myself yet again.:matte-motes-kiss:

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 you do actually bother reading what ive posted? I swear sometimes posting in here is like talking to a rock. Do i really need to explain...again...that my issue isn't specifically with the bites themselves? I also think you are making a HUGE assumption about how much of my time i am investing in this. "Life's blood"...really? You act like my entire SL is based around trying to solve the progeny problem. You don't know me, and you have no idea what  i do with my time. How about you actually ask before making assumptions? i will say one thing.;..judging from your 10,000+ post count, i spend FAR less time worrying about progeny, than you spend in here posting in threads.

 

Just sayin' :)

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