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Martin Emerald

Progeny Vampire System

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I would like to take this opportunity to ask Lachiel a direct question, one concerning the rules of Progeny. Quite simply, what are they? Your website includes the following information:

The Marshals office is charged with investigating reports of allegations concerning abusive behavior that violates System Rules and Laws or the laws set forth by the Grand Council of Sovereign Clans. We investigate any complaint without bias that has the proper protocol and evidence. 
Witness reports are transcribed and evidence that is necessary for the complaint is gathered in order for a proper report to be written. These reports are then sent to either the Arch Tribunal or Diabolic Conclave, whichever is applicable, for their consideration. 
Marshals abide and adhere to all aspects of the Law, be it set forth by the System or Grand Council of Sovereign Clans. They are to apply fair and impartial protection under the applicable Laws equally to both the Mainstream and Outcast members of the Vampire community.

Now, as I see it, it appears that you have given us a means to police your system, which is certainly a way forward, however, you will need to do two things, 1/ let us all be aware of the rules of the system, 2/ show us evidence that reports are taken seriously and acted upon.

Now, on a personal note, re your "final words"

As someone who actually sought to join Progeny in the hope of gaining better insight into the game, I wish to know which of these you accuse me of,

A# Exhibiting abusive behavior toward another player ( not character to character ),

B# being rude or obnoxious to the creator or support staff.

As far as I am aware, apart from directly telling you to keep your players off my land and away from my family i have done neither of these things.

A case for your "marshals" maybe?

 

 

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there have in fact been a hand full of players banned for abusive behavior toward a non-player of the system.    that said many situations that involve non-players are extreamly difficult for me to prove,  

I am not a lindon, I cannot access or verify private IM logs.   or SIM records etc.  99% of such He Said She Said dose an shoud be reported to the lindons.

if the lindons ever asked I would supply them with what ever information I have to support an investifation.

but my system for the privatcy of it's players and everyone else only stores a very limited set of information nessissary to run the simulation.

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Snowgoose, 

I launced the Marshals and later the Advocates, Inquisition and Arch Conclave Tribuneral.

because for 3 years now I have mostly handeled these cases myself unilaterialy based on what ever evedence was presented at any given time.

this system places a group of people in charge of alligations of abuse, ( and in-system law violations )

Marshals Investigate any alligation of abuse to the best of theri abbility,  they report the findings to the Arch Vampire Conclave and the Inquisstion.  those two bodies determin if there is enough evedence to hold a tribuneral.    the accused can be represented by the advocates office who can conduct their own investigation.

The Arch Vampires as a unit hear the case and make a decision if action is to be taken.

-----

in cases wthin second life where you and I are not Lindons we have limted resources to verify things after the fact.  frequenly we have to go on gut and what ever information and testemony we can aquire.   haveing the Conclave hear and rule on the case insures some level of fairness as there are 8 minds to question and 8 minds to choose.  rather than my 1 freuqnely taffypulled brain.

-------

Rules of Progeny

First  progeny is not Really a Roleplaying system.    it is a Roleplaying Aid Eco-System

its a framework of tools people can use to roleplay a vamprie.   

so at eh system level the rules are minimal.  

Do not Break SL's TOS
Do not exibit abusive behavior toward anotehr player 

Do not Exibit Abusive Behaviro toward a Diabolic

No excessive Fowl Langage.

No-Nonconsutual Biteing ont he progeny SIM.

 

all clans and houses have their own laws. and the marshals investigate those too

but at the system level I am only concerned with player to player ( or non-player ) abuse.   and that is largely covered by #1 SL's TOS

 

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Thank you for taking the time to answer my post Lachiel, its about time some meaningful dialog was brought to this thread.

Your answer to my question of rules is is interesting, as indeed is your description of the Progeny game, which has now either changed from its original form or was never properly described by those that were inviting players at the start.

The part of your answer that intrigues me most is

"but at the system level I am only concerned with player to player ( or non-player ) abuse.   and that is largely covered by #1 SL's TOS" 

This seems to be a claim that non-players are now considered by you as important, not, as previously put to me by many of your players, that we are "just food", an attitude that made me so against PV in the first place.

Perhaps with this new found sense of the value of the people behind the avatar will come a little more respect in the treatment of the populous of SL that decide they do not wish to be a part of something like Progeny?

 

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I cannot speak to the attitude of everyone who uses my system to do their roleplaying. But i do care about all people.

 

That said. There is someetimes little i can do when people outside the system are involved. I have zero athority over people who are not in my system.

 

Bybway of example i frequently get a complaint such as one of your players killed one of my family.

 

I do the research and find no evedence of a progeny bite.

 

The user then says yes they used the hungar hud to attack.. but the player is in your system

 

My response always is. Hunger is not progeny. I have no way to detrmine what did or didnt happen in that system. Please take it up with the makers of hungar or the lindons.

 

There is little i can do if the progrny system is not used in the activity that is reported.

 

And ingeneral my system is designed not to bother people...

 

 

Result i pay attention to every case. And take action when nessissary.

 

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can you explain why my sl uncle Randy (randy burt, who has posted on this thread) is killed on your system then?

Do i hear anybody running to say sorry or raise their hand in admission??

NO i do not.

By your own writing "You have no control", never did and never will have it seems.

Your system by its very nature is designed to cause and inflict a curse upon others.

With it seems no way or means to resolve such a matter, other than joining as in so doing spreading your seed amonst those whom had never any wish to be a part of it..

The biggest joke is New Members Have to do a MIC recognition to stop "Drama", and after what i believe is a 2 or 3 week "training" may or may not be accepted into Progeny

The Simple way to stop Drama is to stop Progeny or re-write the hud, tho i have a feeling both things are way beyond your abilities.

Your post have declaired your enjoyment of this threat, in it Proving your system is not liked and is as you state increasing membership, so i have to ask,  Are the new members joining for the right reasons or just to have some sick twisted power over others?

Also how many others have also been left that way due to ... as one of your "lords" told me, so what we kill un-lawfully.

That single line was the Major part and begining of my Pure Hatred for your system, you may ask where i was when this converstaion took place,,,?

The answer.. YOUR Progeny Home.

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I would like to share a conversation that a good friend of mine had with Oberon, head of Ravens Claw clan, well over two years ago. I have taken the steps to remove names, but the text is just as it was passed to me all that time ago. What i would point out is the following:

The length of time that any development of tools has taken, that by Oberon's statement were "coming soon"

The way the game was sold as "free" and it still is, even if Latcheil now admits he wants to make a profit from it.

The condescending way that Oberon views ANYONE that questions the way Progeny works.

there are more points embedded in this text too, but for now, lets all just read it and maybe make up our own minds about what sort of person Oberon and his kind are shall we?

[2012/09/21 07:17]   Oberon Eames: (Saved Fri Sep 21 09:11:59 2012) He (Snowgoose) has his "political" position on it I respect that but he is letting his own paranoia get the best of him

[2012/09/21 07:18] Resident: sorry cat client crashed

[2012/09/21 07:18] Resident: shat*

[2012/09/21 07:18]   Resident: chat* as well

[2012/09/21 07:18]   Oberon Eames: that happens

[2012/09/21 07:20]   Resident: Do you realize it isn't paranoia? He doesn't feel threatened by Progeny so much as he doesn't see it as a system with any honor

[2012/09/21 07:21]   Oberon Eames: Then he has never immeresed himself in Vampire Lore

[2012/09/21 07:21]   Resident: Maybe not i can't honestly say

[2012/09/21 07:22]   Resident: tell me this how much does it cost to bring someone back from being a shade?

[2012/09/21 07:22]   Oberon Eames: nothing

[2012/09/21 07:22]   Resident: nothing at all and I'm not just talking monetary

[2012/09/21 07:23]   Oberon Eames: I can bring anyone back takes me 15 seconds

[2012/09/21 07:23]   Oberon Eames: if that

[2012/09/21 07:23]   Resident: ok.

[2012/09/21 07:24]   Resident: next question, if someone wants to join Progeny how will they feel after they find out they are a shade and need to be brought back before they can join? Isn't that likely to put them off?

[2012/09/21 07:26]   Oberon Eames: I can not speak for them but they would not know they were a shade unless a potential sire tells them if the sire does that then the sire is breaking an unwritten rule of vampireisim as the sire should petition the Diabolics to return that individual to life then do the embrace

[2012/09/21 07:26]   Oberon Eames: without the party knowing they were a shade

[2012/09/21 07:26]   Oberon Eames: its part of the RP

[2012/09/21 07:29]   Resident: I can see that. I think the biggest factor in all of this for both Master and myself is that Bloodlines is more than just a game to us and the fact that Progeny is a game and treated fully as that yet parts of it are similar to bloodlines it makes it difficult to see it in a good light. Does that make any sense?

[2012/09/21 07:32]   Resident: I think the other part that gets Master really upset is the fact that people don't know it is happening to them........ for instance he wants his land to be bloodlines friendly and he doesn't want Progeny messing around on his land but he has no control of that because he has no way of knowing if they are let alone a way to stop them.

[2012/09/21 07:34]   Oberon Eames: The primary difference between BL and PR is that BL is actually the game it makes you be a soul counter = score, it makes you spend mony on blood and the accumulation of it = score

[2012/09/21 07:34]   Oberon Eames: Progeny: Vampiretm is a role-playing aid eco-system developed for use in the Second Lifetm   Meta-Verse. Allowing your Avatar in Second Lifetm to experience Lifestyle Role-play from the shadows of the eternal night. By feeding upon the life force of others vampires stalk the night for ages, maybe even eternity.

[2012/09/21 07:36]   Resident: yet like BL's you have to feed and keep you blood up or you die. You say this is a RP aid yet you are feeding on people who can't RP back with you????

[2012/09/21 07:36]   Oberon Eames: Progeny: Vampire is a free to play system; developed by lovers of vampire lore for lovers of vampire lore. While there are or will be many toys, add-ons and accessories available for purchase within the system, the system itself is free to play. Progeny: Vampire is unique within Second Life, the most realistic Vampire RP system ever and it will not cost you a single linden unless you wish it to.

[2012/09/21 07:37]   Oberon Eames: They can if you wish to inform them

[2012/09/21 07:37]   Oberon Eames: its about individual RP we the creators do not wish to Dictate the terms

[2012/09/21 07:38]   Resident: and right there is the kicker.

[2012/09/21 07:38]   Oberon Eames: Unlike MARS who says that if you must piss blood you need to first pay me 100 lindens then I will let you piss blood

[2012/09/21 07:38]   Resident: with no control, no rules in essence people like ???? at 2 days old become shades

[2012/09/21 07:39]   Oberon Eames: yep the kicker is abput us giving individuals the right to make free choices

[2012/09/21 07:40]   Oberon Eames: which is why there is a Vampire Council which has been trying to set gudlines for the system as a whole but it must come from them

[2012/09/21 07:40]   Resident: it's just me but the point in vampire lore isn't to drain persay but to move in the shadows living and maximizing your resources. If you drain each person you come across your "food" becomes limited and the RP value is no longer there. You are simply killing.

[2012/09/21 07:46]   Resident: sorry computer died that time

[2012/09/21 07:47]   Oberon Eames: NP

[2012/09/21 07:50]   Resident: I guess what I am saying is when looking at Progeny we see a perversion of BL's when it first started out. There was no honor in BL's and it gave BL's a bad rep.

[2012/09/21 07:51]   Oberon Eames: Well being the Second oldest continually operating Clan in BL the only Bad Rep that I have seen is the obscene amount of real money that they have made on it

[2012/09/21 07:52]   Resident: lol from what I understand BL's had a bad rep because people were being victims at very young ages with the griefing in places like freebie areas.

[2012/09/21 07:53]   Oberon Eames: I am not denying anyones right to make a buck But there shold be some give and take for the loyal fan base

[2012/09/21 07:53]   Oberon Eames: Yeah the "Griefing" was from noobs getting bite requests

[2012/09/21 07:53]   Resident: yes I agree

[2012/09/21 07:54]   Oberon Eames: so they put the 14 day rule in effect

[2012/09/21 07:54]   Oberon Eames: Progeny has a 30 day rule

[2012/09/21 07:55]   Resident: then how did ???? become a shade when he was only 2 days old?

[2012/09/21 07:56]   Oberon Eames: a bug that has already been reported

[2012/09/21 07:56]   Oberon Eames: whats ????s full name so I can look him up

[2012/09/21 07:58]   Resident: ***** is his user name but in world he goes by ???? *****

[2012/09/21 08:03]   Oberon Eames: interesting now that I see who did the draining this was done to get at me

[2012/09/21 08:03]   Resident: hmmm

[2012/09/21 08:05]   Resident: you do realize what happened with ???? was the praverbial straw for Master Snow.

[2012/09/21 08:06]   Oberon Eames: in what way

[2012/09/21 08:09   Resident: He didn't care for Progeny and he would tell you that but Master views SL as a place to do your own thing and participate how you please.... "to each his own" The fact that ???? was 2 days old when he was drained and the fact that I was hunting him when he was 1 day old means someone we knew understood where this was going. Someone close to us, if this was targeted at you, knew we would have ???? scanned eventually and knew how Master felt!!!

[2012/09/21 08:10]   Resident: whoever did the draining knew the conflict this would cause and yet they did it anyway, that isn't for RP value.

[2012/09/21 08:13]   Resident: we also don't know where it happened it may have happened at Snow's Place we just thought it could have been a freebie area because ???? spent a lot of time there.

[2012/09/21 08:13]   Oberon Eames: Now that I have looked at the chain of players in this I ammulling over just what I will do, 1 of the possibilities is that I may just withdraw fro SL all together /me contemplates saving around 2K USD a month if he does this or opting to destroy 2 complete Progeny Bloodlines and approx 250 players game

[2012/09/21 08:15]   Resident: We don't want to see you go and I don't know the politics of Progeny what I do know is that if things like this are happening to get at you or others it shows a need for regulation

[2012/09/21 08:15]   Oberon Eames: in case you have not noticed /me is now pissed

[2012/09/21 08:15]   Resident: I understand

[2012/09/21 08:16]   Oberon Eames: there are a few system rules in place, but the rules of the "Game" are put in place by the players not the creators

[2012/09/21 08:16]   Resident: are you pissed at me?

[2012/09/21 08:16]   Oberon Eames: no not at you

[2012/09/21 08:16]   Resident: well I am glad to hear that

[2012/09/21 08:18]   Oberon Eames: basically what Snow and people of his thinking (and I am not saying he is right or wrong) is that Progeny should be like North Korea and the Democratic process's that exist in the United States should be brought under totalitarian control

[2012/09/21 08:19]   Oberon Eames: no room for free thinking

[2012/09/21 08:19]   Oberon Eames: and establishing cultures

[2012/09/21 08:20]   Resident: I honestly don't know about that. All I can speak for is myself for any certainty and I see a need for some regulation to help make the game more enjoyable for all.

[2012/09/21 08:21]   Oberon Eames: then that has to come from the players up through the ranks so it can continue to be discussed as it has been for 2 years now in the Council by all the council leaders

[2012/09/21 08:22]   Oberon Eames: Thats called freedom of choice

[2012/09/21 08:22]   Oberon Eames: and decision making in the hands of the people who choose to play

[2012/09/21 08:23]   Resident: which is fine but as non players with an outside view and opinions on why we aren't playing the only action we have to help in any way is to voice our opinions to those who are active players

[2012/09/21 08:26]   Oberon Eames: which makes you a player if you are not hudded and want to have an opinion in a game that you do not "Play" that truly makes no sense

[2012/09/21 08:26]   Oberon Eames: what about the other 10 Vamp games that exist in SL

[2012/09/21 08:27]   Resident: I havent learned of them and to be honest Progeny sounded very appealing to me and if some of these things changed then yes I may would be more likely to join.

[2012/09/21 08:28]   Oberon Eames: well Being free to make a choice will never change

[2012/09/21 08:29]   Oberon Eames: and that is basically what Progeny is all about the freedom to make your own choices

[2012/09/21 08:30]   Resident: that is fine I suppose. But if a person is using Progeny as a means to get at another player it's no longer about choice is it. They are doing something to influence your actions and your surroundings. That doesn't sound like the game you want.

[2012/09/21 08:31]   Oberon Eames: Then I advise all who feel that way to move to a desert island and not communicate with anyone cuz thats how RL and SL is

[2012/09/21 08:33]   Resident: I don't know. You have brought up a lot of valid points that I need to look over because some of my opinions were based on other ideas.

[2012/09/21 08:34]   Oberon Eames: :) that is why we are Freely discussing this

[2012/09/21 08:35]   Resident: I just felt that someone should know what is going through non players minds, the smallest change can be made without affecting the game too much but would give others the desire to play.

[2012/09/21 08:36]   Oberon Eames: and believe me I appreciate the input and you points are not ignored and have been brought up before in varying manners

[2012/09/21 08:38]   Oberon Eames: until you actually participate in the system You willl always have questions

[2012/09/21 08:38]   Resident: very true

[2012/09/21 08:40]   Resident: also no game is without it's problems the system isn't perfect and I know it will take time to work out kinks but I feel so much has been said and done that it's not doing our family any good. Heads are butting over something that could easily be resolved with a little give on both sides

[2012/09/21 08:45]   Resident: quick question and possible help but is there anything avilable that would give non-active players, players who don't have a hud but know of Progeny, a form of protection? With BL's there are things like the garlic necklace

[2012/09/21 08:46]   Resident: Something of that sort would allow players a form of control without encroaching on active players free choices.

[2012/09/21 08:49]   Oberon Eames: As I have and lledge has told on way more than one occasion over the term of this discussion that there is a device that will be coming very soon that will render the HUD inoperable over a given area

[2012/09/21 08:51]   Resident: I know this and that is a good start a very good start but what about personally? If a person decides they want to venture out but the area doesn't have that protection you may still be making choice available to the players but you are taking that choice away from non players.

[2012/09/21 08:58]   Resident: the last thing I have to say cause I can tell this is upsetting you more which I don't want is this:

[2012/09/21 09:01]   Resident: BL's offers protection to those that don't play by making it so the non player has to agree to be bitten. That sort of thing doesn't fit with how Progeny works. In all these games a person has the decision to play or not but there also needs to be an element of decision for those non players.

[2012/09/21 09:01]   Oberon Eames: Basically a person that is not a part of the system should have no knowledge that the system even exists as in Vampire Lore do we "really" exist

[2012/09/21 09:02]   Oberon Eames: a "Real" vampire would not say to someone "excuse me I'm a Vampire may I bite You"

[2012/09/21 09:03]   Resident: no as in if a Person has knowledge of the system let them decide how involved they wish to be. If vampires existed in the real world and people actively believed those who cared would take actions to protect themselves or not.

[2012/09/21 09:04]   Resident: those who don't know can be viewed as rl people who don't believe. those who know can make the decision on whether they desire protection or not.

[2012/09/21 09:05]   Resident: that would actually make Progeny even more realistic.

[2012/09/21 09:06]   Resident: It would make the game more of a challenge which RL vamps would run into

[2012/09/21 09:06]   Oberon Eames: Yes and when the Slayers HUD is released that will all come into play until then it is not

[2012/09/21 09:06]   Oberon Eames: We are building a story line that will allow for the system to grow

[2012/09/21 09:07]   Resident: This is the HUD Lledge told me of?

[2012/09/21 09:08]   Oberon Eames: we are coming out with many HUDS its all part of future planning

[2012/09/21 09:09]   Resident: and have you released that these are coming out? From the sound of things you are working on many things that would resolve the issues people like Master Snow have with the game.

[2012/09/21 09:09]   Oberon Eames: The people who are using the HUD have some of this knowledge not all

[2012/09/21 09:10]   Resident: and those who aren't using the HUD but have a vested interest?

[2012/09/21 09:12]   Oberon Eames: The system is still in Beta mode so if someone has a vested interest they would be using the HUD to assist in the development,

[2012/09/21 09:14]   Resident: Yet not all people want to be involved in the game yet knowing that it is out there they want to remain out of it even if that includes not being bitten. Every SL player should have that choice!

[2012/09/21 09:15]   Oberon Eames: How would they know they have been bittin if they are not participating

[2012/09/21 09:15]   Resident: and knowing of the coming HUDs would allow the conflict to stop because said people would have assurance that something is coming.

[2012/09/21 09:19]   Resident: That isn't the point Oberon darling. Whether a person knows if they have been bitten or not they may not wish it to happen at all. Sorry I am using BL's as an example so much but like I said it is the only other vampire game in SL that I know of. A person who knows of the game and everything that happens if you are bitten has the assurance that they can stay out of it. Not only with the bite requests but also with the available items such as the garlic necklace. Even newbies know SL has a vampire element and they know they can protect themselves by getting the necklace even if they don't know the specific systems.

[2012/09/21 09:25]   Oberon Eames: I hear what your saying but here is the other view: BL hits you with "Excuse me but can I bite you" that is from many points of view Griefing therefore BL was Forced by the LL TOS to make the Garlic Neclace to stop the Griefing. Progeny Does not Grief by spamming people with Bite invites there for they are not "Griefing and violating the LL TOS so the Garlic necklace has absolutely nothing to do with the argument you presented

[2012/09/21 09:26]   Oberon Eames: PS I am enjoying theis "Debate" Hugs

[2012/09/21 09:27]   Resident: yes I understand that but if a person knows and doesn't wish to be involved even to the extent that they don't wish to be bitten shouldn't they have the right to say ha too bad nice try. I am enjoying as well!!! :-))

[2012/09/21 09:28]   Resident: I will however need to take a short break my daughter will be getting home from school and I will need to go pick her up from the bus stop.

[2012/09/21 09:28]   Oberon Eames: nope not if the system is not spamming them and they have no way of verifing that it even happend

[2012/09/21 09:28]   Resident: that will be soone

[2012/09/21 09:29]   Resident: you wish this to be as realistic as it would be if it were rl right?

[2012/09/21 09:29]   Oberon Eames: That is what we are doing, aiming for

[2012/09/21 09:31]   Resident: so in RL if a person knows of vamps and wishes to protect themselves they have a way. If people don't know they can be a victim without knowing it happened. Why not give that protection to those who know.

[2012/09/21 09:32]   Resident: ok I need to go right quick to get <name> off the bus I will be back soon!!

[2012/09/21 09:33]   Oberon Eames: when the slayers come out then that portion of the story line will start

[2012/09/21 09:33]   Oberon Eames: and we will let the slayers make the choice of reveal or not

[2012/09/21 09:35]   Oberon Eames: The FAmilier HUD is next up then the Lycanthorpe then the Slayers

[2012/09/21 09:51] Resident: :-)) I guess we will have to agree to disagree lol I think fanatics as we can be called such as Master Snow and myself should know about the HUDs if only to cut back on the conflict between everyone lol

[2012/09/21 09:52]   Oberon Eames: and that my dear is why You guys have the inside track with me :)

[2012/09/21 09:52]   Resident: lol well that is a good thing. Does Master Snow know about these huds

[2012/09/21 09:54]   Oberon Eames: Probably not as he has not had this sort of discussion with me I believe he has only spoken with lledge and krysteen

[2012/09/21 09:54]   Resident: :-)) then I will let him read our convo. I think it may help him. at least I hope it will

[2012/09/21 09:55]   Oberon Eames: You have my permmisson to copy it to him

[2012/09/21 09:55]   Resident: thank you I appreciate that

 

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There is something in your post that I believe some might take issue with, right away, before even reading the conversation. That would be this part, that I bolded.

 


Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

I would like to share a conversation that a good friend of mine had with Oberon, head of Ravens Claw clan, well over two years ago. I have taken the steps to remove names, but the text is just as it was passed to me all that time ago. What i would point out is the following:

The length of time that any development of tools has taken, that by Oberon's statement were "
coming soon
"

The way the game was sold as "free"
and it still is
, even if Latcheil now admits he wants to make a profit from it.

The condescending way that Oberon views
ANYONE
that questions the way Progeny works.

there are more points embedded in this text too,
but for now, lets all just read it and maybe make up our own minds about what sort of person Oberon and his kind are shall we?
 

I did read the whole conversation, and can easily make my own mind up about a person, though I wouldn't just use one conversation to do so, that's really neither here nor there. However, the use of "what sort of person Oberon and his kind are", can be rather misleading. It is like saying that because there are idiots that participate in bloodlines, all of them fall under the same umbrella, and, therefore, deserve that same label. Oberon himself may be a jerk, I don't know. He may be arrogant, even ignorant, again I don't know (and don't personally base my opinions of people on one conversation, or even one topic, but I'm a tad weird that way). What I don't know is how "what kind of people his kind are", nor would I pass judgment on them all, just because of him, or even a bunch of others who might act like him. That was one of my points earlier in this thread. Using a broad brush to paint everyone the same color is not goint o help others better understand you. Just as I am not passing judgment on each and every individual in this thread, or inworld, that have a serious dislike for this sytem, based on the rantings of some people, I wouldn't pass judgment on anyone that participates in progeny based off the ones who use it more as a griefing tool.

Some of the posts in this thread have merit, in my opinion, or at least have points that have merit, and are worth discussing and considering when I am trying to understand the other side. Some of them though, come off half-cocked, and make it very difficult to distinguish the actual issues at hand, versus someone just feeling butthurt and needing to vent emotionally, without a need to be understood. I know people don't like the use of that word, but, really, that's how it comes off in some cases. If the points could be spelled out a bit better, it would make it easier for people to understand. I think you've done your best, at least in the last portion(s) of the thread, to try and do that, without it seeming like you're simply butthurt over something really stupid, or rather something some folks might think is stupid in their own opinions. Others, however, are doing the entire "anti-progeny" thread a massive disservice. It's probably one of the reasons others won't take what you, and others, have said, seriously. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure in this case, I'm not.

Maybe reading back through the thread from the position of someone not on the inside of the issue would help people better understand why others think that some of the rants make people sound looney. Maybe not, but it's always worth a shot. Personally, I like being objective, I like understanding, I like clarity. Whether or not I come to the conclusion that I agree with someone, those things can better help me understand issues others have, way better than some of the rantings. Venting is good, ranting might even be good now and then, but, ya can't blame the reader when the typist is going off willy nilly, all emotional(seemingly) and posts lack clarity.

Sort of like when I'm trying to help someone inworld and they get all ranty at me. I'd like to help, I'd like to understand the problem. But, if you can't explain it to me, it's not my fault when I cannot interpret what you're trying to say through the other junk. Make sense? Maybe not...but maybe. I just experienced this with a customer a couple of weeks ago. He bought something, and didn't quite know how to use it. Rather than simply asking for help, I get an IM that amounts to "your f'n **bleep** dont work, i want my money back" and a rather aggressive and emotion filled reason as to why it was "**bleep**", how it's ruining his sl life, how other products have also done the same to him...etc..etc.. Trying to get the guy to calm down and explain what the problem is, was a very daunting task on my part. I couldn't see the issue through his ranting and raving. Eventually, after a few "discussions" with him, I got through, he calmed down, explained what he did right before it "broke" and we figured out that he had opened something that he shouldn't. Truth be told the product was labelled as "DO NOT OPEN!!!" in the product name, the hovertext over it, etc...Long story longer, I needed him to be clear, not emotional, and explanatory, not aggressive aand accusatory. Even if the product had indeed been broken, accusations would not have gotten it fixed, and aggressive behavior is not likely to get the response one desires. Not the same exact scenario here, but, very similar concepts all the same.

Regardless, hopefully whatever issues folks have, will be resolved at some point, and folks can continue on in their slives, happy as a puppy in a milkbone pool. If not, well, it's a good thought anyway.

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so, let me see if i understand all of what Oberon said...

 

for non-players who have no knowledge whatsoever of Progeny, it is a non-issue. Because they are unaware of what is going on, it doesnt matter what happens to them in the course of the progeny rp.

Non-players who do have knowledge of progeny (like myself) are basically screwed and have no choice but to just deal with things like being physically griefed by progeny vamps when we discuss it in open chat, or choose to "out" progeny vampires when we warn people about their existence. We have no recourse for any abuse except through the highy ineffective LL abuse report system. Progeny courts and laws have no provisions of protection for abused non-players, or discipline for those progeny that cause the abuse.

If a non-player wished to have any chance at all in being able to detect and defend against progeny, we have to wait for the Slayer HUD to be released (still waiting after more than two years since Oberon's comments), or request a dove device, which isnt portable, and is rarely given out by Lachiel. Getting the Slayer HUD also means that, in order to use it, we would be basically forced into JOINING Progeny. 

One thing that i totally disagree with is this notion that IF vampires existed in RL, that they would be able to bite people undetected. That is apparently what progeny is based on. Of course, no real vamp would ask permission to bite, but at the same time, a vamp cant just walk up to someone and bite them without the victim at least being aware of their presence and have a chance to run away or defend themselves. Also, Oberon indicated that BL is all about scores, while Progeny is all about RP. I highly doubt that when i see progeny vamps hanging out at newbie welcome areas doing nothing but feeding on every single person. I have been keeping track of the progeny who show up at one of these welcome areas, and i see no fewer than 12-15 progeny there in a single day, and many of them come back several times during that day. Some of these vamps have been clan leaders, and even one or two of the diabolics, so they must be aware of what is going on. 

What i would like to see in Progeny is a version of the garlic necklace (portable dove device maybe) for those of us non-players who are aware of progeny but do not wish to participate. I would also like to see progeny expand their "court" to include investigating reports of abuse by progeny towards non-players. Lachiel and Oberon both say that the creators are not responsible for how their players conduct their RP, when in fact, the way their system is designed and some of their rules (esp. the masquerade) encourages some players to abuse others. They need to at least have a method for dealing with it. They should learn their lesson from the issues with BL if they dont want Progeny to have a bad reputation from the way that some of their players treat other people. 

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im sure if you got bitten by a vampire in RL if as you say they did exist im more than sure you would know about it, thus his statment like most that come from the mouths of progeny members makes no sence at all

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RevengingAngel1 wrote:

im sure if you got bitten by a vampire in RL if as you say they did exist im more than sure you would know about it, thus his statment like most that come from the mouths of progeny members makes no sence at all

It's a long time since I read Dracula, but I don't think the Count's victims had any clear recollections (if any) of his attacks on them, did they?    If I recall correctly, they just became weaker and weaker, and had these strange marks on their necks, and no one knew what the problem was until Professor van Helsing was asked for his opinion, and he recognised the signs for what they were.

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Wow,  there is a lot to read here.  I will respond on my alt to avoid being profiled.  :P

 

I think that the hysteria over this system is ridiculous.  If your biggest issue in Second Life is a a vampire gaming system that isn't even noticeable,  then I would say your life is doing rather well.  Why do people get so worked up over such triviliaties?  

 

I'm in the Bloodlines System and the Progeny system.  I'm in Bloodlines as a Human and Progeny as a 3rd generation Vampire.  

I do not use the Bloodlines system much at all yet because I cannot afford to buy the Forever Amulet and I do not think it is all that possible for me to feed as much as is necessary.  It's still a system that I appreciate and intend to get more involved with in the future.

Progeny is my preferred system.  Before I became Progeny,  someone drank my blood until I became a Shade(Dead).  The system discourages against such practice because blood is regenerated unless you're dead.  I don't know who fed on me and I'm quite over it.  I went searching through various clans and found a clan that uses both systems.  They revived me and turned me into a Progeny vampire.

For all the complaints made about Progeny,  it's really not worse than Bloodlines.  With Bloodlines,  you send bite requests and some people are annoyed by that.  Then the bite is instant and you're in the system forever until you put on the garlic necklace.

In Progeny,  if we are biting you,  the bite is very gradual and you have the chance to escape.  You just aren't paying attention to the fact that we have our fangs sticking out!  Another vampire started feeding on me today while I was afk and I escaped when I came back and noticed him there.  I could have gotten upset about it but then I just went hunting and got back my pint.  A human regains their blood after a few days and then it's as if they were never biten.

If a Vampire clan claims that they don't bite the unwilling,  then perhaps that is true for their clan.  They still have the ability to chat with people.  Maybe they DO talk to people and ask before they can bite.  Everybody is different.  RP is what you make of it.  If they want to get their victims more involved in it,  that's their choice.

For me,  I have my own personal ethics.  For me,  I give myself bonus points if I see someone is a pedophile or being a jerk to other people.  I'll feed on them happily.  So in that way,  I work as a bit of an anti-hero.  I don't feed off of other clan members.  If I like your sim,  not only will I not feed on your property,  but I also will do you the favor or scanning you on occasion and helping you out if you need it.  So in those regards,  I could be your ally instead of a pest.  

I had been hanging out on a sim for weeks and decided to invite my partner there to dance.  My partner tried to recruit someone,  first making polite conversation with them.  But that person was so xenophobic that they had my partner permabanned from the sim,  made a big group announcement about it,  and then threatened to have me removed.  So,  in a way,  all of this hysteria and hatred adds to my RP because while I might think as a human,  it is more YOU PEOPLE who really create the separation between human and vampire.  

 

Again,  I think if you're going to be so delicate about the issue,  you really don't belong on Second Life or any other game.

 

ETA:  There have been times where I have scanned people and if I see they are a Shade,  I will inform them and try to help them get revived, if that's what they want.  I also see it as an opportunity to ask them if they want to be a Vampire instead.  The last time I did this,  the person decided to try and set up a security system against Progeny and told me they wanted to report the HUD to Linden.  After that incident,  I've decided that I no longer want to assist strangers, if that's the kind of mentality they have.  And don't ever compare this to rape,  ever.  Don't compare anything to rape.  Just don't go there.

 

ETA2:  And there is not MORE drama in Progeny than Bloodlines.  There is drama on every sim in SL.  I'm rather new to all of this and I hear about drama all day from so many clans that are BL.  

"With it seems no way or means to resolve such a matter, other than joining as in so doing spreading your seed amonst those whom had never any wish to be a part of it.."

No one has to join Progeny.  I helped someone buy the potion to revive themselves,  and they are human again.  They still hate anyway,  so meh.  

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Well, for someone that hides behind an Alt. you make some bold claims for a system that is neither in a finished form or indeed one that is widely known of and respected. At least with Bloodlines it is in the open, people love or hate it quite openly and that is the way of many things in SL, well at least the ones that us residents are aware of.

This thread has thrown up much discussion, as to individuals rights and wrongs in SL, some are in my opinion valid, others are not, as I am sure others think of my views on the subject. That is what makes a forum interesting and useful for those that take the time to contribute.

So you don't think I have a place in SL, really? You have the gaul to hide behind an Alt and say that? What are you afraid of? Breaking the masquerade?, Its already been done here and its done anytime a Progeny Vamp tries to recruit anyone in world isn't it?

No, the real issue here is a system that is kept in Beta as a way to hide its faults and dubious ethics. It is ruled by people that seem to enjoy the drama it creates and they have a long list of "followers" that are little more than sheep or clones that try to perpetuate the system when it is so obviously failing. 

I don't hide behind an Alt to speak my mind, if people want to read and hear what I say, then good for them, if not, well, that is up to them, but rest assured, the more I get told to keep quiet, the louder I will become.

It is, as much MY SL as anyone's, I don't have any less or any more right to be in world as the next person, but at least when I am on my Avatar I am the same person that is in RL, and many really cannot say that with any truth it seems.

 

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so i feel Mr Y, Angel, along with others and aslo my sweet lil self are like Van Helsing :matte-motes-big-grin: thats Awesome.

oh i did read the book Van Helsing DID win!!!

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First, i think that your use of an alt to reply just shows how little faith progeny players have in their own system. You say you are afraid of being "profiled", yet you willingly participate in a system that has proven to be controversial. What amazes me is people like you who refuse to even acknowledge that people with differing opinions have a valid concern. That just shows how narrow-minded people can be. You claim that our point of view is rediculous and trivial, yet you can't even show your true self and have to hide behind an alt.

You claim that people can "escape" from Progeny vampires. I have been bitten several times and NOT ONCE have i ever seen fangs. You also apparently haven't read all of the posts in this thread, because i have said that progeny often attach followers to their victims which prevents an escape, even if we knew who they were. The only option at that point is to teleport out, which takes a bit of time to open the places folder, pick a new location, and then leave...all the while being fed on.

Your afk feeding experience isn't quite the same as it owuld be for a non-player. First, your hud allows you to instantly detect another progeny, giving you an advantage that non-players dont have. Next, you have the option of feeding to regain your heath, while we apparently have to just wait for enough time to pass to recover and hope we dont get bitten again before then.

It's nice that you have your own code of ethics, but obviously that doesnt apply to other vamps within the system. This isnt a case of a few bad progeny players spoiling things for everyone else, it seems to be the majority of them who cause the problems that give them such a bad reputation. In the time since i discovered progeny, i have seen at least 30 of them. I have been threatened by a few, physically attacked by many, and treated as though i was an inferior piece of crap by almost all of the rest of them. So far, i have only met THREE progeny players who i would consider to be honorable, and one of those decided to leave progeny because SHE was being treated badly by her own people.

Now, if you wish to really RP as a vampire, then as you said, the way that we feel about it would be an accurate reaction to vampires and what they do. I hope that you wouldn't expect the general population to actually LIKE your vampire character, so maybe our rediculous and trivial response isn't such a bad thing for you, and you should actually be happy that we do :)

This isnt a case of being "delicate", and even if it were, why the hell does everyone have to be just like you in order to be in SL? Do we all have to have thick skins?Do we all have to have the same point of view? What ever happened to diversity?

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Oh, and i just found out today that i have been bitten enough to be a shade, and i know exactly who was responsible. Two days ago, i was at social island 1 (apparently progeny's fave new hangout), and had to go afk. When i came back 30 minutes later, i recieved an IM from a friend who said that two progeny vamps had been standing right next to my avi for at least 10 minutes. She also told me the names of these progeny...botiRD, and lidyaLL. boti has also attacked two of my friends, and has also physically come after me more than once. In an IM conversation, lidyaLL told me that she would stay far away from me, but apparently that was a lie. They took advantage of my being AFK, and unable to flee or defend myself in any way. I have also seen a new tactic by at least two progeny where they dress in a newbie starter avi and run around feeding on totally unsuspecting newbies. Just where the hell is the RP in that?

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Incase anyone is interested, I have found a new way into the Progeny database to uncover the members list (after my last way in was secured) Please feel free to contact me inworld and I will gladly give you the hack details.

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Wow a lot of reading I just did. Not to mention the "Spell Checker" ringing loudly for most of the words. Plus I'm curious as to what in the hell is a "Lindon", I thought they were called Lindens, and for Vampire lore lovers? What books did they seriously read, Anne Rice, Twilight, Cause I have done extentsive research into Vampires, and the various forms of lore, and not once did I see anything like Progeny in it. Still amazes me that some do not get that Progeny is truly a bottomless pit of hopelessness. It's claimed to be a Role Playing aid (or better known as a Tool), but yet in same sentence has "Ecosystem" in it as well. This is why I truly gave up in there, because outside of the areas designed for RP, we did not take it out into the public open SIMs to interact. I won't say I wasn't a good vamp, and didn't feed off those that were new to SL in general, or in info HUBs, because I did, until I started logging in Alts to avoid going out and about and dealing with other "So-called" Progeny Vamps, back to the topic. I believe this game as they see it, along with SL, and yes I've seen many say and chat that SL and Progeny and everything inside is a game. But I've also visited SIMs that were strictly set up for RP only and gave their rules, information, and such, and what is and is not allowed to be done on the SIM, most of the time I just used the "Observer" Tags to watch people stand around in those SIMs not saying or doing anything. I just feel it's a sad time  that a new resident can not even go freebie shopping without being hounded by these leeches, while some do not drain them dry, others will. It's how they do it. Most don't know what they are doing in SL when they first join it, and are trying to learn the way, learn how to walk, interact with others, and well yes sometimes annoy the women with IMs saying "Hey baby I want the sex", even though I still have yet to figure out what "The SEX" is. I know what Sex is in general, but not "THE Sex" as some say. So my opinion is this, if progeny is to be a RP Aid, then state that, and if you want your little ecosystem in it as well, well keep those damn players in the SIMs you have set up for it, Super andA few of  them were building weapons to help Progeny grow into something more since so many were using DCS to fight , and yet when they left, there went the HUDs and weapons for that set up. Why must outsiders of progeny continue to be punished for not wanting to be apart of the RP in the first place?, Now that I've truly had enough time out of SL and Progeny , I can see it clearly for what it is. A system that will always be "BETA" because it's not good enough to be anything better, no matter how many changes come. When the so-called "Slayers" and "Lycans" come into play as well, rest of SL Community that wish to remain out of it will be harrassed and targeted by those as well. I just don't see it ever being anything more then a hopeless dead system that is and always will be consumed with the "Greed" for money!

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LadyShad0wz Greymoon wrote:

I just don't see it ever being anything more then a hopeless dead system that is and always will be consumed with the "Greed" for money!

If it truly is a hopeless dead system, then why not let it fizzle out on its own, the way many other things have in sl? Why bother to be concerned, to the point that you *may* make your own self a nuisance in public sims, by "outing" and publicly crying outrage about anyone and everyone that might be using the system, especially if those people are merely standing around on a sim and NOT biting anyone?

I get, in theory, wanting to "out" griefers, that are annoying others and forcing them to partake in another person's rp without their consent. While it may not be something I'd choose to do, I can understand, in some instances, why others do not. I cannot, however, fathom why anyone would do this to everyone in a sim using that system, without just cause. 

Often times, because I've been in sl long enough, and been to enough places, as well as reading others' experiences on the matter, I have noticed that sometimes the person who thinks they are doing others a service by pointing people out publicly that may, or may not, be using a tool that some deem as griefing...to indeed make their own selves a target. A target not just to those who are using that tool nefariously, but also anyone and everyone else that might come to the conclusion of..."oh, this one is terribly bothered by griefing....let's have fun". Sure it doesn't always happen, but it can, especially on public sims. I have seen it happen more times than I care to count. Sometimes the best defense is simply no defense.

As an example, I used to own and run a nice public gathering sim. It wasn't generally too populated, but enough that some folks regularly enjoyed it. We had music going, no stores, but lots of other activities. If someone came on my sim, wearing progeny, but not utilizing it, and another person came on the sim and started outcrying how that person is "griefing" or wearing a tool they perceived as griefing....I would have a chat with the person making a public scene. I would also have a chat with the person wearing the progeny, IF and ONLY IF, the person making a public scene about it, told me that person was indeed biting others(and could prove it). Otherwise, I would think the person "outing" the av wearing progeny, to be a nuisance to an otherwise peaceful public gathering place. It can be seen as griefing to try and rile othes up by saying "so and so is wearing...(insert whatever), do you KNOW what it does?". If the person wearing (insert whatever) is doing no harm to anyone, not bothering anyone and is simply there to enjoy a nice place...you have no more business trying to get others to gang up against him or her, than he or she does to bite you without consent. Both instances, in my opinion, could be seen as griefing, and would be  handled as such. Personally, I welcomed anyone and everyone who wanted to enjoy the nice sim, so long as rules were followed and respect given to everyone around. I would no more put up with a person making a public scene than I would someone using a griefing tool. They're both absolutely annoying and detrimental to the environment I wished for my sim.

I have seen the outcome of people trying to "out" others, in regards to various different huds, systems, etc.. available in sl. It was rarely ever pretty. And while those who wanted to "out" others may have thought they were doing everyone a huge service in doing so, and may have even done so, for a few folks, they were actually annoying even more people than they imagined. Try dealing with complaints against people who are making a public nuisance of themselves for a while, and you might understand why some people think publicly outing people wearing progeny, who may otherwise be doing nothing harmful at all(as in, NOT biting people) is a really bad idea on sims you don't own, or have any control over/say in. When it's your sim, you get to make the rules, under LL's TOS of course, no one else gets to make them for you. If you bug my patrons by coming onto my sim(assuming I ever open it back up again) I'm goign to hvae a chat with you. If you don't like it...then don't bother coming back. I can deal with people who are biting others without consent, and those folks who are being annoyed by the bites, have no problems telling me themselves. Unless you're being bitten, at that moment, don't make a scene and don't try and make yourself into some hero "speaking up for others". If they want you to speak up, they'll ask. Otherwise, you're verbally griefing others around you and likely losing the battle you think you're winning.

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

I would like to share a conversation that a good friend of mine had with Oberon, head of Ravens Claw clan, well over two years ago. I have taken the steps to remove names, but the text is just as it was passed to me all that time ago. What i would point out is the following:

The length of time that any development of tools has taken, that by Oberon's statement were "
coming soon
"

The way the game was sold as "free"
and it still is
, even if Latcheil now admits he wants to make a profit from it.

The condescending way that Oberon views
ANYONE
that questions the way Progeny works.

there are more points embedded in this text too, but for now, lets all just read it and maybe make up our own minds about what sort of person Oberon and his kind are shall we?

I see nothing at all condescending about Oberon's views throughout the conversation which you've posted.  In fact, it seemed like a very civil, thoughtful interaction on both sides.  What I do find interesting is the one point that the person with whom he was speaking (your subordinate, I presume) brought up, which has never yet been brought up in this far-less-civil thread... the fact that those in the know have no way of protecting themselves from vampire attacks.

I firmly believe that the clueless should be considered fair game, but for those, such as yourself, who do know, there should be a way of arming yourself against attacks.  Of course, doing so should be entirely dependent upon your own choice to engage in such rollplay.  In other words, arming yourself against such attacks should require something more proactive than simply wearing a necklace.

While I believe that, in RL, this would be the sort of choice one would have to make in order to stave off vampire attacks, I don't believe that, in SL, users in the know should have to make such decisions should they simply wish to remove themselves from the rollplay altogether... much like they're able to do with Bloodlines.

The more I learn about the workings of Progeny, the more I understand how realistic they're trying to make the system... but, this isn't RL.  There should be an opt-out option made readily available to those who wish to take advantage of something like that.

Of course, there will always be the fringe, lunatic element, which will be unable to live and let un-live, as it were... but, they should be easily ignorable to anyone who would otherwise be concerned.  In other words, Progeny developers should just give people the choice to opt-out and, then, just ignore them, in exactly the same way I've been telling anti-Progeny advocates to ignore Progeny players throughout this thread.

...Dres

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BTW the mic thing thats a Must to get into Progeny is to "STOP the use of ALTS".

guess she really doesnt know the rules

also i got this feeling stormarmond is the one that was seen at a store walking into the middle of a group of people then attaching her hud , that was announced , then had the ban put on her :smileytongue:

didnt see any body there being as she are those she attacks

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You write this as if I know what the hell you're trying to convey.  I'd ask you to explain yourself in plain English, but the combination of your inability to do so and my inability to give a damn indicates that it would only be a waste of effort... therefore, I shall refrain.

...Dres

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Vampires , and etc are still of interest to me, and I will always speak out against progeny now that I'm done with that scene in my life. I come here to the forums mostly now. To read and laugh at some of the other posts I've seen, not only on this topic, but others as well. I don't see the need to be in a system where well as the old saying goes "Money talks, and BS walks", but I do like to make others aware of that system , I don't come into SL often now because it's just not worth my time to stand around and watch idiots be idiots. While yes I do have a shop still in SL but only on MP and I've given up working on that. My scripts that I stored outside of SL are long gone because I gave that up as well. And RA1. If you read my words carefully it was "I LOGGED IN ALTS TO FEED ON", just because I got tired of having to go out and deal with the other players of progeny, and I did not want to drag anymore people than I already had into progeny. That was my way of trying to protect people that did not wish to partake in that type of RP. I did NOT once say my alts were apart of progeny itself. I did the same before I got the forever amulet in BL as well so I didn't annoy anyone with bite requests, plus at the time I didn't have the L$ to spend on 200 apples for a blood doll. Vampires have always been a high interest to me, way before I ever knew of SL, Vampire The Masquerade, and etc. It was just a dark side of human nature and listening to others talk about it. While in my older days in text style chats like Excite,MSN,YAHOO,AOL,well Excite had a virtual chat room with pictures customized that I got into RP online with a dice roller and other tools. This is what upsets me about Progeny is they contradict themselves and drag everyone into their game even if they are aware , or unaware of it. I don't go scanning for people using the HUDS and or FANGS cause well I'm not in SL often. When I do go in. I clear out notices, and answer offlines that appear from friends that do still pop into SL, which isn't often because they too got tired of it and found happiness outside of SL. While in Bloodlines I made my own clan so I didn't have to join up with anyone that required me to do things I did not and will not do. Progeny made it nearly impossible for the same lifestyle for me in there, so I became an outcast that just did not care about it anymore. Still to this day  they demand "RESPECT" to their leaders. Sorry maybe I'm just old school here, but I firmly believe that respect is something earned and can not and will not be demanded from me ever in life. So a system that merely reeks of demands is something people need to see. While yes they claim it's the most realistic game in SL, which I won't agrue with, because it is, but it's also without it's flaws. So people , next time you decide to include my name into posts that refer to things that I DO NOT do, re-read my words and understand my viewers for SL sit in a fold named "BS " and if I do log into SL on one of my many ALTs, its to be free from the creators life I gave myself in  there, and to roam freely as just a regular joe!

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