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Martin Emerald

Progeny Vampire System

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 NO, that Roleplay had nothing to do with you and should not interrupt your conversation in any way.

RolePlay, that in your case is one sided???

could you also come up with a good reply for how Camping on a landing spot clicking Every Avi that lands can be classed as RolePlay..

why should those using your system be permited to go against "Normal" sim rules, that all others have to abide?

if its so sweet and innocent put it on Marketplace and lets all be equal, let us all have what is it now version 3.3 and not Beta?.

BETTER STILL FOR THOSE OF US WITH MORALS,, DO A VERSION OF "THE DOVE" THAT WOULD ACT LIKE THE GARLIC BLOODLINES HAD TO PUT OUT FREE

"oh no hang on that would lower your little idea of power over others"

Seriously . you need to sit down across from a mirror then take a good long look inside yourself and find out exactly what in your upbringing damaged you.:matte-motes-tongue:

 

P.S. thank you its  nice to see you giving me a name check , thats does make me feel so major special :matte-motes-kiss:

 

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Lachiel Vaher wrote: (an explanation of Progeny) and wrapped up with...

Final Words!

Those Avatar’s that are Banned from the system, there are many, and there are only two reasons people get banned from the system.  

A# Exhibiting abusive behavior toward another player ( not character to character ),

B# being rude or obnoxious to the creator or support staff.

Lachiel, this may be covered under A#, but what happens if you get a complaint of abusive behavior about a Progeny player from a non-player (lay resident)? Most such reports are probably to LL via AR, but I imagine you'd not take kindly to getting complaints from residents about players of your game.

By your description, Progeny seems innocuous. It is interesting to see the reaction the game is getting from people who, had they not been told of it, would never know what was going on in the minds of your players. The next time I'm in public and see a cop, maybe I'll tap his shoulder and ask him to have a talk with all the other men who I'm certain are undressing me with their eyes. Maybe he can even get their phone numbers for me!

;-).

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RevengingAngel1 wrote:

 NO, that Roleplay had nothing to do with you and should not interrupt your conversation in any way.

RolePlay, that in your case is one sided???

could you also come up with a good reply for how Camping on a landing spot clicking Every Avi that lands can be classed as RolePlay..

why should those using your system be permited to go against "Normal" sim rules, that all others have to abide?

if its so sweet and innocent put it on Marketplace and lets all be equal, let us all have what is it now version 3.3 and not Beta?.

BETTER STILL FOR THOSE OF US WITH MORALS,, DO A VERSION OF
"THE DOVE"
THAT WOULD ACT LIKE THE GARLIC BLOODLINES
HAD
TO PUT OUT
FREE

"oh no hang on that would lower your little idea of power over others"

Seriously . you need to sit down across from a mirror then take a good long look inside yourself and find out exactly what in your upbringing damaged you.:matte-motes-tongue:

 

Well RevengingAngel1 (I love the irony!), I gotta say that Lachiel doesn't seem damaged to me. I'd say more, but I don't want people haranguing me for a cockatoo.

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no worries Madeline , i do have a great deal of problems at times keeping a straight face. there was really more fitting words i could have used, tho felt with this being a "Public" forum id hold back, thus proving my higher moral standards, as comapired to him, his system and the greater sum of its users.

(bows, turing my head slightly and giving a sly wink)

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RevengingAngel1 wrote:

 

why should those using your system be permited to go against "Normal" sim rules, that all others have to abide?

 

This is the bit I don't get.   From what you've said, people using this Progeny system are just going to be standing around, apparently minding their own business.    At any of the sims in our group, while we'd prefer for people to interact,  so long as they don't stay there so long that we start to think they've simply parked their avatars there, that's not going to be a problem.

In point of fact, to my mind we're far more likely to have a problem with folks trying to create drama by having a go at other visitors because they're apparently wearing invisible fangs.  

And, as someone who is concerned about sim performance, I certainly have problems with someone encouraging people to make repeated use of Firestorm area search.   That really hammers the sim.   It's ok for normal use, when you're simply looking for lost items or the source of mysterous messages,  but the amount of work you're piling on the sim by having it query and report to you every single scripted object is horrible, and making repeated use of it for something trivial like this, on someone else's sim,  really is pretty anti-social.   

 

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


RevengingAngel1 wrote:

 

why should those using your system be permited to go against "Normal" sim rules, that all others have to abide?

 

This is the bit I don't get.   From what you've said, people using this Progeny system are just going to be standing around, apparently minding their own business.    At any of the sims in our group, while we'd prefer for people to interact,  so long as they don't stay there so long that we start to think they've simply parked their avatars there, that's not going to be a problem.

In point of fact, to my mind we're far more likely to have a problem with folks trying to create drama by having a go at other visitors because they're apparently wearing invisible fangs.  

And, as someone who is concerned about sim performance, I certainly have problems with someone encouraging people to make repeated use of Firestorm area search.   That really hammers the sim.   It's ok for normal use, when you're simply looking for lost items or the source of mysterous messages,  but the amount of work you're piling on the sim by having it query and report to you every single scripted object is horrible, and making repeated use of it for something trivial like this, on someone else's sim,  really is pretty anti-social.   

I don't recall Orwell's thought police being terribly social.

Got any Soma to spare, Amethyst?

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For those that are going to use the area search, you can limit the distance to those within 35 meters of you rather than searching the whole sim. That would help.

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I'm not sure that helps much, though.    The sim still has to calculate the distance between you and every single object on the sim, to decide which objects to report to you.    At first sight, filtering objects by distance would seem to place a smaller burden on the sim, but, in fact, if anything it's probaby making more work.

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RevengingAngel1 wrote:

RolePlay, that in your case is one sided???

why should those using your system be permited to go against "Normal" sim rules, that all others have to abide?

 

Just addressing these bits here, since they're the most relevant to me.

A lot of RP is one sided, at least to some degree. I gave an example earlier...that is to say, taking my sl babies out and about sl.(they're prims, not avs). That rp is one I fully enjoy, and it is entirely one sided. I don't annoy others, I don't involve them in my rp, I just go about my day, rp-ing as I like. Many, many avs in sl rp in a one sided manner. Rp doesn't have to involve more than one person, to be roleplay. Some folks might define rp that way, that is to say, they may believe it cannot be one sided, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily right. Your definition of rp might not match mine, but it doesn't mean either one of us is wrong. It just means we each define r for our own selves. There are a lot of folks in sl who see simply loggingin, playing a character that you are not, is rp. I'm not going to be the one to tell them they're wrong, if that's how they define it for themselves, I'm cool with it. It's all about personal choices on that matter. I've never been fond of the "you're not doing it right" or "that's not really rp", or really anything else others like to define for themselves, and then push off onto others, as if their way, their ideals, are the only right one. It doesn't sit well with me, and never will.

As for the second bit, folks who regularly scan the area, especially using area search, are doing the sim a massive disservice, every time they do. That kind of hit to sims and their performance, is typically against the rules, and more often than not, seen as taboo on most sims, especially venues. So, in that right, for the folks who are "camping" at landing spots and clicking avs that come in, are actually doing less damage, overall, to the sim and the experience of everyone else on the sim, than the folks searching. I'm not going to debate whether or not people should be able to just sit there and click away at avs, or scan them for info. I will simply say that the methods some folks are choosing to out and discuss progeny members, could very well, be far more damaging, overall, to a sim's performance, thereby intruding on the experience of everyone else on the sim and not just yourself. 

I am sure most folks have been on a sim at some point, that was performing poorly due to things others are doing, or have done. It's not pleasant. Believing you've every right to hit a sim's performance, just because you can, is as arrogant as believing your way is the only right way, when it comes to rp...in my opinion. That doesn't mean my opinion is right, but it is how I feel. For instance, I wouldn't take my prim kids to a place that is busy. Why? Because they add more to the sim load, and perhaps take more than I personally feel is fair, of the sim's resources, away from other visitors. So, while I do not let others' idea of "correct rp" stop me, I do mind others' rights(including the sim owner) and don't abuse sim resources when I go out and about. For me, it's common courtesy. I'd say the same thing for folks who deck themselves out with way too many huds, gadgets, etc...that also smack the sim load in the face. It's why a lot of sims have rules about such things, and if/when they notice folks causing issues, will either contact them directly, or outright ban them. I can appreciate that rule, because I, too, want to enjoy my time out on the grid.

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Hey, its about time we heard from you! Glad you thought our little disscusion was worthy of your valuble time.

I took the liberty of repling to your "advertising comment" so that you get another shot at getting your system to reach a few more people, see how I help out you poor little developers? lol.

Anyways, we seem to have moved to a new topic, that of sim performance, so for what its worth, here are my thoughts on that.

Yes, Area Search does impact a sims performance, but not overly so, certainly no more than having a few avatars on the land all wearing huds for various things, like shoes, hair, Bloodlines etc...

I am sure that if people were told to remove those then a small outcry would be forthcoming, the same as would occur if i was told to stop using Area Search :)

Fact is it is hard to detect who is using it, and even harder to prevent, short of banning those that are suspects.

If you think your Sim resources are in danger from me, please, feel free to ban me, I know its nothing personal.

Now, back to the topic, smiles.

 

 

 

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oh i get it,,

Its ok for progeny users to do what they want but not those that dont want to be involved :smileysurprised:

only thing to be done then is to stop them not us that scan to keep outselves free from being part of something

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No,RA1, I don't think that is what Innula is saying,

They have legitimate concerns about Sim resources, something that we have all felt at one time or another. The point is, surely, that we should not have to do an Area Search just to be aware of who on that sim is using a hud such as Progeny on us. Lachiel and his cohorts can talk all he wants about it not effecting "non players" but the fact is it does, to those of us that have any sense of right and wrong that is.

It is refreshing to see that he (Lachiel) can now come out openly about his system, I for one hope this is the start of him and his followers being far more open in what they do and maybe, just maybe, even using some fun RP that we can all enjoy, even those that do not to be a part of the system.

 

 

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RevengingAngel1 wrote:

oh i get it,,

Its ok for progeny users to do what they want but not those that dont want to be involved :smileysurprised:

only thing to be done then is to stop them not us that scan to keep outselves free from being part of something

You really need to quit twisting things out of proportion if you want anyone to take anything you say seriously.

I, personally don't deny that you have a point, and a right, to not want to take part in another person's rp. But certainly, you could find a much better way to articulate that distaste, and msot certainly, denying the fact that some measures taken to avoid such involvement, are likely to cause more problems than you might believe they are solving. Being unwilling to admit that others also have a valid point, whether or not you agree with their stance, just makes your argument sound childish.

I don't particular agree that progeny, and its participants is, overall, harming much of anyone. I do agree however, that some folks are proving to be a nuisance(as with anything, really, there are always jerks). It doesn't much matter to you, or anyone else, whether or not I believe the system, as a whole, is intrusive, but it doesn't have to matter. It's how you feel, and everyone is, of course, entitled to their own opinions.

I still think that scanning the entire sim repeatedly, and actually disturbing the experience for everyone, is not a solution at all. Do I think a better one should exist in their "system"? Yes, much like I've thought that BL needed one(before they had one that is). Whether or not I need, or would use it, is irrelevant, others want it, and will use it, and that's enough of a need for me.

I also think that publicly announcing that people with a progeny hud ar ein the vacinity might be a bit overkill too, but it's primarily because, as people have already pointed out, some of the folks that participate are not honestly bothering anyone. So, for those folks, they'll be painted with a great big black mark, just for being on a sim. It would be a lot like my going around and pointing out how much I dislike gor, and how I feel about others having slaves, etc.. in a public sim, and pointing the folks out who do enjoy that kind of rp...to everyone that doesn't. Sure, some folks might not give a crap, and tell me to let them be. But others, would likely take what I've said, run with it, and turn it into a grief fest for the people who are, otherwise, doing nothing wrong. DO you understand what I am getting at here? Crowd mentality plays a large role in things, whether we want it to or not. TO give you another example, I will take Redzone, as, well, it's something a LOT of people didn't like. Before it was banned, and before the issue became big, there were lots of folks who were goign around trying to get others to blacklist any sim that used it. Mind you, this was long before most people had heard of it, long before it became the problem it did, and long before Greenzone came about(to combat redzone). There were lots of folks who used redzone, not realizing the issue it was becoming, or why people were so against it. But some, rather loud, folks, didn't care. They labelled anyone that used it as some kind of monster, and worse. Sim owners were griefed, visitors of sims were griefed, and generally it became an all out war, of sorts. All because some folks "wanted to be heard" but opted for the worst possible way to do so.

Now, of course, eventually, people realized what redzone was, what it did, and why it shouldn't be allowed. But damage was done LONG before that happened. Even after removing redzone from their sims, once folks realized what it was(and before LL banned it), those people were still veyr much blacklisted by a lot of folks. The damage was done, and for some it was never repaired. For others, it was, and that's awesome. But, still, a lot could have been done differently, and better, to lessen the blow of one idiot's product on everyone else who really didn't realize the harm others(and its creator) were doing with it.

Is it not likely that some folks truly don't understand why you're up in arms about progeny? Is it not likely that some people really do enjoy the rp aspect and want nothing to do with annoying you, invading on you, or being intrusive at all on anyone else? It's been pointed out in this thread, that those folks exist. So why pray tell should they all be black listed, because some of the folks in progeny suck-no pun intended there. Yep, some are idiots, some are jerks, some use the system in a way others are not going to like. But progeny is neither the first, nor the last, system(or product) in sl that does this. In fact, it's definitely the more gentle, docile even, of the ones I have seen. But I suppose the fact that other products that behave similarly exist, and have existed for years, doesn't much matter, lol, since this is about progeny(I still can't help but wonder where the outrage is towards them, but that's just my odd curiosity, and ha sno bearing on anything else).

I should probably stop reading this thread, else whatever merit I have taken from the counter points of view will be lost forever by the folks who aren't exactly representing their own opinions very well. It's been an interesting discussion, regardless, and I enjoy reading other points of view, whether or not I agree with them. I don't think there's much point in trying to explain why multiple points of view in a discussion is a good thing, as it should be obvious at this point. Knowledge is rarely ever, a bad thing ;)

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just a little thought tho

does lachiel`s posting go against his Maquarade :matte-motes-wink-tongue: seems he cant follow his own rules never mind anybody elses

 

on a brighter note, its my birthday friday ,, ill be a big twentteen,, just not giving up being a teenager without a fight :smileyvery-happy:

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RevengingAngel1 wrote:

oh i get it,,

Its ok for progeny users to do what they want but not those that dont want to be involved :smileysurprised:

only thing to be done then is to stop them not us that scan to keep outselves free from being part of something

What I am saying, as someone who is involved in managing a large estate of popular entertainment sims, is that I'm obviously worried about how our sims are performing and I am aware of what puts pressure on the servers and causes lag.  

I know -- because I've discussed it with viewer developers -- the sort of of strain Firestorm's area search puts on the simulator.   When you use it, you are telling the sim to deliver a great deal of data to your viewer that it otherwise wouldn't.

That's not normally a problem, because people usually use the tool as it's intended to be used -- occasionally, and at home, when they're looking for something they've lost, or the source of some particles or whatever.     However, if several people start abusing the tool by doing region searches repeatedly, on a region where the sim is already under pressure delivering lots of data to twenty or thirty agents,  then that is likey to be a problem.

That is why I'm not at all happy about the idea of someone coming to one of our sims and encouraging visitors to start doing something I know is going to lag the sim consideraby more than -- for example -- people turning up wearing hair and boots with resizer scripts in every single prim, which is something else that is frowned upon.

Tl;dr  Whatever I think about vampires and Progeny, I'm not bothered about a couple of avatars standing around quietly.    I am bothered about someone encouraging visitors to put an undue strain on sim performance by encouraging them to abuse Firestorm's area search.

 

 

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

Yes, Area Search does impact a sims performance, but not overly so, certainly no more than having a few avatars on the land all wearing huds for various things, like shoes, hair, Bloodlines etc...

I am sure that if people were told to remove those then a small outcry would be forthcoming, the same as would occur if i was told to stop using Area Search
:)
 

 

It's not the same as huds and Bloodlines, though.   If it were, I wouldn't be so concerned.

There are all sorts of things the impact on a sim's performance and collectively cause something that's rather unhelpfully called "lag".    

Scripts don't normally cause many problems in themselves (assuming they've not been written incompetently or maliciously) because the worst they can usually to is slow down other scripts.   SL puts a cap on the amount of time a sim allocates to running scripts in each frame, so they don't have much impact on anything other than other scripts.    

Scripts can cause problems because they put pressure on the sim's avaiable memory, which is why old-style resizers with scripts in every single prim in someone's hair or boots aren't welcome in most places.   If the simulator runs out of RAM because it's trying to hold too many active scripts in its memory, then it has to start swapping memory between RAM and its available disk memory, which freezes everything.    In practice, that doesn't often happen, or not so you would notice unless the sim has other problems. 

Scripts can also cause problems when avatars teleport into a sim, because the sim has to load them all at once, which is, in practice, when someone's multi-script resizer is going to cause problems -- a sudden spike in sim activity, which can be an issue if there's lots of other things going on.

That's scripts.   However, there's lots of other things that the sim has to do.   Most of its work is delivering updates to everyone's viewers.   If I walk around, it's got to deliver that to the viewers of everyone who has me in their view distance,  so their viewers can redraw the scene, and it's doing that for everyone in the region or adjacent regions.   It's also got to deliver textures to my viewer, or at least communicate with my viewer about what textures my viewer has in its cache, all the time, and there's a lot of other things constantly being updated.    

When someone uses Firestorm area search, they're sending the sim an instruction to query, and potentially deliver information to Firestorm about, everything on the sim.   That's a lot of extra work for the sim that it wouldn't normally be doing.   

Unlike script time, the time that the sim spends processing and sending this data isn't capped, so it's potentially going to affect everything else the sim is trying to do in the same frame.     

Normally that's not an issue -- when Firestorm area search is being used properly, it's a momentary spike on a quiet sim.   However, in the context of a busy sim that's already struggling to keep up with all the updates it has to deliver to every single agent,  that's a very different story.     And trying to cope with several people repeatedly  triggering Firestorm area search on top of all the other things the sim is doing is certainly likely to have a noticeable impact.

On its own it's not likely to be a big deal, but there's very few things (other than deliberate griefing tools) that will, on their own,  cause problems for a region.  

In the context of a busy club or something, though, the effect of several people repeatedly using Firestorm area search is going to be far greater, and likely to be far more noticeable, than that of people wearing lots of resizer scripts, or particularly scripty huds and collars, and technically-minded sim managers who worry about sim performance aren't likely to be very impressed at people who encourage this misuse (to my mind) of Firestorm's Area Search on their sims.    

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the using of the area search by some of us can only be down to one thing.. THE MINDLESS ABUSE THOSE PROGENY USERS ARE ENGAGING IN.

If they stop we will stop,

 your having ago at what seems to us "the cure" and not the symptoms..

wow thats a little deep :smileytongue:

 

ALTHO AS SNOW HAS STATED THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT AREA SEARCH, IF THATS GOT YOUR BACK UP MAKE A NEW THEAD FOR IT.

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RevengingAngel1 wrote:

the using of the area search by some of us can only be down to one thing.. THE MINDLESS ABUSE THOSE PROGENY USERS ARE ENGAGING IN.

If they stop we will stop,

 your having ago at what seems to us "the cure" and not the symptoms..

wow thats a little deep :smileytongue:

 

ALTHO AS SNOW HAS STATED THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT AREA SEARCH, IF THATS GOT YOUR BACK UP MAKE A NEW THEAD FOR IT.

My problem is that, at least to me as an outside observer, your cure seems worse than the ill it seeks to remedy.

I've asked several times, but no one has, as yet, told me what possible harm a couple of avatars are causing by standing around quietly pinging away with their huds and saying to each other, "I've just bitten so-and-so, and he tasted  like a blend of syrah, carignan, cinsault, grenache and mourvedre,  dark without being heavy or claggy, tasted of liquorice and granite." (I pinched that from a wine review) or whatever they say.    It might seem a strange and sad way of spending one's time, but I see no practical harm in it to anyone.

On the other hand, I most certainly see the practical harm to everyone's enjoyment of a busy sim that people are likely to cause by -- irresponsibly, in my view --  going round encouraging others to abuse Firestorm's area search.  

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


RevengingAngel1 wrote:

the using of the area search by some of us can only be down to one thing.. THE MINDLESS ABUSE THOSE PROGENY USERS ARE ENGAGING IN.

If they stop we will stop,

 your having ago at what seems to us "the cure" and not the symptoms..

wow thats a little deep :smileytongue:

 

ALTHO AS SNOW HAS STATED THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT AREA SEARCH, IF THATS GOT YOUR BACK UP MAKE A NEW THEAD FOR IT.

My problem is that, at least to me as an outside observer, your cure seems worse than the ill it seeks to remedy.

I've asked several times, but no one has, as yet, told me what possible harm a couple of avatars are causing by standing around quietly pinging away with their huds and saying to each other, "I've just bitten so-and-so, and he tasted  like a 
blend of syrah, carignan, cinsault, grenache and mourvedre,  dark without being heavy or claggy, tasted of liquorice and
granite
." (I pinched that from a wine review) or whatever they say.    It might seem a strange and sad way of spending one's time, but I see no practical harm in it to anyone.

On the other hand, I most certainly see the practical harm to everyone's enjoyment of a busy sim that people are likely to cause by -- irresponsibly, in my view --  going round encouraging others to abuse Firestorm's area search.  

 

And I thought I was the only one to know the taste of granite, except possibly for Demosthenes.

On all other accounts, I'm agreed.

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


I've asked several times, but no one has, as yet, told me what possible harm a couple of avatars are causing by standing around quietly pinging away with their huds and saying to each other, "I've just bitten so-and-so, and he tasted  like a 
blend of syrah, carignan, cinsault, grenache and mourvedre,  dark without being heavy or claggy, tasted of liquorice and granite." (I pinched that from a wine review) or whatever they say.  

 

They weren't describing a nice Chianti were they?

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:


I've asked several times, but no one has, as yet, told me what possible harm a couple of avatars are causing by standing around quietly pinging away with their huds and saying to each other, "I've just bitten so-and-so, and he tasted  like a 
blend of syrah, carignan, cinsault, grenache and mourvedre,  dark without being heavy or claggy, tasted of liquorice and granite." (I pinched that from a wine review) or whatever they say.  

 

They weren't describing a nice Chianti were they?

Nope.   It was Victoria Moore, reviewing red wines for Christmas, in The Daily Telegraph for December 5th last year.   She was describing an Australian wine, Tim Adams' Clare Valley The Fergus 2009.   

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:


I've asked several times, but no one has, as yet, told me what possible harm a couple of avatars are causing by standing around quietly pinging away with their huds and saying to each other, "I've just bitten so-and-so, and he tasted  like a 
blend of syrah, carignan, cinsault, grenache and mourvedre,  dark without being heavy or claggy, tasted of liquorice and granite." (I pinched that from a wine review) or whatever they say.  

 

They weren't describing a nice Chianti were they?

Nope.   It was Victoria Moore, reviewing red wines for Christmas, in
The Daily Telegraph
for December 5th last year.   She was describing an Australian wine, Tim Adams' Clare Valley The Fergus 2009.   

There was a joke in there somewhere....................    ;)

</threadjack>

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Well, I must admit, its good to have some humor on this topic, it shows, I think, that sometimes we can all be way too passionate about a subject sometimes and need to step back a few paces.

Perhaps to go back to the effects of Area Search, yes, I can confirm that it does lag up small parcels, (as tested on my own land) but it has little effect in bigger, better managed areas such as Social Island and it is at these kind of places where the members of Progeny seem to ply their trade.

From a personal view (as always) as I have said before, If I am not welcome to do an Area Scan of a sim I enter, then please, by all means add me to your ban lists. SL is a big place and i am sure that it will not cramp my style too much :)

A lot of personal views have been aired in these pages, all of which is good because education can never be considered a bad thing. I will state yet again, I have met some very nice people in Progeny and once again i will say that it is a shame not every member is as nice as those.

 

 

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for my part i have never met nor spoken to a nice PV member

tho i have been chased by many, one i spotted  who was even invisible (probably using the bloodlines hud for that ) feeding on an AFK person who then found it a major giggle to still attempt to get within feeding distance of myself , and then start with the treats.

I remember my first honstly Polite IM sent to the one behind this system was met with nothing less than a "GET LOST" reply

 

SO TELL... ME WHY SHOULD I PUT UP WITH ACTION LIKE THAT??

 

Angel RanDom age twenteen in 3days time :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

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