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Martin Emerald

Progeny Vampire System

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

Think what you like, right now i am past caring what people think of my of what I want. It just goes to show that the world is full of oppressive people that think that they can do whatever the hell they like with no consequences. Well this Avi is making a stand, like it or not. and I will be actively spreading the word about Progeny whenever and wherever i can, If that makes me foolish in your eyes then so be it, I will not loose sleep over it!

Do and think as you will.

I'm certainly not going to fight with you about this.  And I don't think you are a bad person.

I expressed my POV and the reasons for it.

People can agree to disagree.

I'm not going to join your crusade other than if someone asks me about Progeny I'll say what I think, which is that it is stupid.

And it wouldn't matter to me what Role Play someone is involved in, if I see someone harrasing or griefing others in contravention of the TOS I'll report it.

That's how I choose to live my Second Life.

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CleoSertorii wrote:

I think you may be misunderstanding things a bit. We arent proposing that we literally waste our time sitting in a sim with a sign warning the world about Progeny vampires. I am just as opposed to the progeny system as it exists at the moment, but i also spend my time in SL doing what ive always enjoyed doing...boating, swimming, shopping, clubbing, and socializing. Some of us are capable of multitasking
:)
so its not a big trouble to talk about the problems with progeny when the subject comes up, and still be able to enjoy our SL.

You do make an interesting point about the difference between Progeny and BL. Obviously, i wasnt around when BL was a big deal, but from what i understand, it has calmed down quite a bit, and i suspect that might have been because of people like me who were willing to speak out. You believe that changes might have been made to BL to make the system better for non players.. How did that happen? Why would LL possibly step in and insist on changes? Im guessing because other people made enough noise about it and brought attention to the problem. We are trying to do the same thing here. I know for a fact that i have already attracted the attention of at least one Progeny leader, so they know that we know. It isnt much, but it is a first step.

One thing that many people seem to forget is that SL isnt a game. It is a virtual world with real people behind the avis. We have feelings, opinions, convictions, and beliefs. The fact that our avis and world are digital doesnt invalidate those things.

When Progeny begins to do things like we witnessed with Blood Lines, then I'll speak up too.

And I understand that people have feelings, opinions, convictions and beliefs they bring with them into SL.  But that in and of itself does not make them valid.  They may seem real to the person expressing them but that does not mean they are valid.  Note carefully, I am not invalidating the fact that they are feeling, etc, them.  There is a distinction.

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

But in all seriousness, I now take every opportunity to scan for Progeny fangs and attachments in whatever sim i visit, and if i find them, I make damn sure that I talk openly in open chat about it and who is using them......this is how we will have to act if we are to ever change this system, make it as visible as we can to as many as we can.

This is an honest question.

Do you think that people should always scan and then openly discuss what others are wearing in local chat, whether or not they are using that particular product to annoy, grief, or otherwise intrude on the sl experience of other residents?I ask, because there are a ton of products out there that could be seen, or used, as griefing tools, yet many people rarely, if ever, use them as such. 

I can understand wanting to "openly out" people who actually are griefing others with said tools, but I don't understand this whole "we need to seek change, by openly discussing who is wearing these fangs in public". What if that guy you just made into a virtual parasite to others, isn't actually using his fangs at the moment on someone and is simply there enjoying the atmosphere just like you? Don't you think inciting others by making a scene out of something that is not a scene, might just be a bad idea, and make the problems worse? We have already seen you, and others, discuss that exact scenario. In other words, those doing nothing wrong at all, are turned into virtual monsters, while those who feed off such attention(and like to grief others with the fangs) are given even more ammunition. I've never thought that to be a good way to create change. Of course, your mileage may vary.

We saw the same "we will out them whenever we can" with bloodlines, even players who weren't sending bite requests. Although I am not into that kind of rp, I couldn't help but feel bad for the folks others were, almost literally, lighting the townsfolk torches for, because they weren't all being jerks with their rp. It didn't change because of those folks who thought openly outing all BL players everywhere they went, was a good idea. Those folks, stoked the fire, and made things worse. Sure, complaints made a difference, but making a scene out of nothing at all, hindered the cause from the word go. I strongly, and I know I am not alone, suspect that changes would have been made to the entire syste, much earlier on if people would have never started that kind of behavior in the first place. Complaints made in a more productive manner, however, contributed to the changes being made. Though BL still gets a bad rap, it's mostly out of reputation of those "scenes" from so long ago, and it's definitely not as bad of a rap as it once was.

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The answer to your question, in the case of Progeny, is yes, I do feel that way.

This has indeed become something of a personal crusade on my part and I have no intention of stopping my open discussion of the Progeny system and its ethics until I am given some way of defending myself and others from the bottom feeding pondlife that go by the name of Progeny Vampires. 

If you feel that I am some kind of idiot for doing that then that is your purogative, like I said, I wont loose sleep over your opinions of me.

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Being bitten by a vampire is, to me, a violation of my personal integrity and since I am a fairie, also a violation of my Second Life life style. It does not matter if this affects my avatar in any way. It is a symbolic act. If a person comes up to you and describes, using words only, how he raped you, it is not affecting your person. It still is a violatin.

What would prevent a 'gaming system' were you raped people instead of biting them? They will never know so what is the problem? Well, the problem is that it is a violation. It does not matter if I get to KNOW that I have been exploited or not. I still have been exploited and that is the key evil thing with the entire gaming system called Progeny.

 

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

The answer to your question, in the case of Progeny, is yes, I do feel that way.

If you feel that I am some kind of idiot for doing that then that is your purogative, like I said, I wont loose sleep over your opinions of me.

Well I'm glad you actually answrred the question this time, as it was an honest question on my part-as are the others I have asked.

However, you're projecting with the whole "if you think I'm an idiot" line, and you're projecting it onto all the wrong people, including myself. I may think you're going about your crusade in the wrong manner, but I've never suggested you are, or that I think you are, an idiot, or anything of the sort. In fact, I'm likely the last person that would say this. I get flack for my own rp style all the time from people who think it's creepy, or don't approve. I don't lose sleep over that either. But, I also don't think they get any say in how I rp, or where I rp, so long as I do not actually bother them. My mere existance on a sim with those folks, is enough to send them into the very same tirades I am reading in this thread. So, pardon my curiosity as the recipient of similar commentary from folks who don't approve of my own rp, which, by far and large, literally harms absolutely no one, in ANY way(and really, can't actually harm anyone in any way).

I shouldn't need to apologize for being curious about your(and others') issues with this, but I almost feel as if I must, sadly, I doubt I am alone in that, which is going to prevent a lot of other people from understanding your point of view.

There are probably a lot better ways to express your concerns, without assuming anyone who asks questions is doing so for the wrong reasons. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but, I've always assumed asking people questions is the best way to understand them. Go figure :D

 

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Well asking questions is, as you say, the best way to learn how others feel about a subject. However, I have said repeatedly exactly what I think about the Progeny system and its vast majority of players, so why keep asking the same question? Ok here it is, let me spell it out for you, nice and simple like......

I personally do not wish to be played with by the members of Progeny. The fact that they involve me in a game that I want no part of is, to me, wrong, whether I have knowledge of them doing so or not.

There should be a way to stop attacks on myself and my family and friends (which there is apparently - "The Dove") that is available to all that want no part in the system. That is my whole point and reason for watching and contributing to open discussion on this forum. Give me the tool to stop this game effecting me and i will stop being so vocal in its damnation. (just make sure it is copy because i will want to give away plenty)

 

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If that's your attitude, I will inform Progeny to attack you when they see you, - any means at his reach, that's what you want. So the fun is for everyone

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But alias there is the true problem there Snow, he will not give that device out without headaches. He keeps it hidden even from his members. Had it not been sent out in a notice that he was forced to give out that device to a land owner, none of us would have known about it. The fact is at one time when the diabolics were on the land, it use to dove us from their HUD, he does not want to hinder his progeny members to just their SIM, and feels that all of SL is a playground for his minions. To go around feeding off just about anyone that comes within 2 meters of a member of his little game. He even went as far during the last war to stop members from killing each other by poisoning the bloodlines blood, so another member from another bloodline could not bite each other. Hence they started going after their humans who had no protection in the game at the time. It's truly sad that he will do anything to make SL an open playground for his members, but wants nothing to do with those that no longer want to be apart of it to get out, rather then just "Die and delete the HUD, fangs.", nor will he do anything for those that do not wish to be apart of his game at all.

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

If you feel that I am some kind of
idiot
for doing that then that is your purogative, like I said, I wont loose sleep over your opinions of me.

The only person I've seen call someone an idiot in this thread is you.

...Dres

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

There should be a way to stop attacks on myself and my family and friends (which there is apparently - "The Dove") that is available to all that want no part in the system. That is my whole point and reason for watching and contributing to open discussion on this forum. Give me the tool to stop this game effecting me and i will stop being so vocal in its damnation. (just make sure it is copy because i will want to give away plenty)

Please, someone... anyone, give him the tool!

I honestly do believe that this dove thing should be made readily available to those who wish to make use of it.  I also don't believe for a second that getting this tool is going to stop the more irrational of people from trying to instigate arguments with Progeny members... but it would probably help separate those who are immune and still insist on causing trouble from those who simply want some piece of mind about it.

...Dres

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Go Topaz wrote:

If that's your attitude, I will inform Progeny to attack you when they see you, - any means at his reach, that's what you want. So the fun is for everyone

There is something really wrong with you.

...Dres

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There is no fight in this thread, just spirited discussion of a topic that I am passionate about and those that seem to think I have no right to freedom of speech. Sure we may bat a few little sarcastic quips at each other, but that is by no means a fight.

And if Dres wants to be seen as a naked boy, then that is his affair, It has no bearing on what he has to say or the way in which he says it, does it?

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YAY! 

I do love it when someone finally sees the light and stands with me to ask "Why can't we have the tool?"

I know that Dres's reason will be to make me shut up, but hell, if he can see that is what it will take, to make me quit moaning, then my postings here have not been in vain.

Of course, he is right in what he says, there will be an element out there that will continue to cause drama in the vampire world even with the device, but then, there will also be Progeny Vampires that want to cause trouble too.....its just a sad fact of life.From experience I would say that more drama is likely to come from the P Vamps, but that is to be expected.

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Snowgoose Yootz wrote:

I know that Dres's reason will be to make me shut up, but hell, if he can see that is what it will take, to make me quit moaning, then my postings here have not been in vain.

On the contrary, it'd be no skin off my back should you choose to continue moaning into eternity.  I had no problem with you simply complaining about this nonsense, no matter how futile I may have thought it was for you to continue to worry about it for more than a second.  It wasn't until you started advocating for the idea of creating a list of avatars whom you could then ban, thereby creating a situation wherein the probability would be very high that innocent people would be affected by your over-reactionary stance, that I took issue with your supposed cause.

If this dove thing can alleviate your paranoia enough so that it allows you to reconsider advocating for such draconian tactics, I'm all for it.

...Dres

P.S.  BTW, my avatar is not actually naked in my badge photo... lol...

badge_4.png

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The "dove" hud would indeed go some way to alleviate what I consider to be a threat to my and my families enjoyment of SL. However, it will not stop me openly talking about a game that has no real purpose in being so secretive. My personal ban lists will continue to grow and I will continue to give said lists to anyone that does not want Progeny on their land.  

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Ima Melodie wrote:

Being bitten by a vampire is, to me, a violation of my personal integrity and since I am a fairie, also a violation of my Second Life life style. It does not matter if this affects my avatar in any way. It is a symbolic act. If a person comes up to you and describes, using words only, how he raped you, it is not affecting your person. It still is a violatin.

What would prevent a 'gaming system' were you raped people instead of biting them? They will never know so what is the problem? Well, the problem is that it is a violation. It does not matter if I get to KNOW that I have been exploited or not. I still have been exploited and that is the key evil thing with the entire gaming system called Progeny.

 

Let me see if I understand you, Ima. If I come up to you and say I'm biting your fairie-ness, that's a violation. I won't disagree. I could call that harassment. Yet that hasn't stopped me from pinching butts all over SL, and getting consistently good results. Maybe it's the delivery, not the message, that counts.

But it's also a violation if I don't say a thing? The OP said (three years ago) that Progeny bites require neither notification nor particpation of the victim.

Well then, I challenge you to imagine all the violations I may nor may not have commited against you while writing this post. I'll warn you that I have a very active imagination. To make things easier, the first thing I may have imagined is that I robbed you of your imagination. The second thing I may have imagined was robbing you of the ability to feel indignation.

;-).

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

 

Let me see if I understand you, Ima. If I come up to you and say I'm biting your fairie-ness, that's a violation. I won't disagree. I'd could call that harassment. Yet that hasn't stopped me from pinching butts all over SL, and getting consistently good results. Maybe it's the delivery, not the message, that counts.

But it's also a violation if
I don't say a thing?
 The OP said (three years ago) that Progeny bites require neither notification nor particpation of the victim.

Well then, I challenge you to imagine all the violations I may nor may not have commited against you while writing this post. I'll warn you that I have a very active imagination. To make things easier, the first thing I may have imagined is that I robbed you of your imagination. The second thing I may have imagined was robbing you of the ability to feel indignation.

;-).

Madelaine, it is a bit more than just simple imagination on the part of the vampire who is biting you. Your avi name goes into a database to keep track of your level of health. You are being involved in a RP scenario (or a sporting event, which every way they see it), where an action is being performed by the other avatar, not just a thought in their mind.

It seems that there are two responses to this issue....those that see it as a matter of principle, and those that do not. I suspect that also depends on how they view second life as an overall expeirence....just a game, or a true second life in a virtual world. Neither viewpoint is wrong, because it all depends on what you expect to get out of SL. Some people dont have problems with another avatar biting them, or pushing them, or pissing on them, or insulting them, because they likely dont see SL any different than HALO or CoD. The avatars are digital so for some reason that cancels out things like morality, or respect, or common decency. The fact that every avatar has a real person behind it doesnt seem to matter at all, so they will say and do whatever they want, with no expectation of concequences.

On the other side are those of us that remember that we are people, not NPC's. Feelings matter, and so do principles of how you treat others. To some of us, it doesnt matter if we interact in SL, facebook, Skype, email, telephone, or face to face. The medium of commuication is irrelevant, what matters is the attitude and intent. Does that make us better? No, it just makes us different, and more sensitive to how we are treated in SL. The issue here is not who is right or wrong, but do we respect eachother's opinions. I believe it is entirely possible to disagree with someone's point of view without resorting to name calling and insults (unlike some people who i dont need to mention).

I personally think the dove, or something like it, would be a good first start in dealing with this situation. All i want is to have the ability to defend myself against bite attacks, and not be harassed or assaulted because i choose to talk about progeny in public. Despite what Dres has accused me of, i DO NOT deliberately try to start arguments with progeny. My being vocal about it is to make others aware of the situation, so they can at least make their own decision to be bothered by it or not. Dres also said that it is none of my business...well to his POV, that might be true, but he is not me, and doesnt have the right to decide what is and is not my business. He can think what he wants, but it isnt going to affect what i do.

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CleoSertorii wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

 

Let me see if I understand you, Ima. If I come up to you and say I'm biting your fairie-ness, that's a violation. I won't disagree. I'd could call that harassment. Yet that hasn't stopped me from pinching butts all over SL, and getting consistently good results. Maybe it's the delivery, not the message, that counts.

But it's also a violation if
I don't say a thing?
 The OP said (three years ago) that Progeny bites require neither notification nor particpation of the victim.

Well then, I challenge you to imagine all the violations I may nor may not have commited against you while writing this post. I'll warn you that I have a very active imagination. To make things easier, the first thing I may have imagined is that I robbed you of your imagination. The second thing I may have imagined was robbing you of the ability to feel indignation.

;-).

Madelaine, it is a bit more than just simple imagination on the part of the vampire who is biting you. Your avi name goes into a database to keep track of your level of health. You are being involved in a RP scenario (or a sporting event, which every way they see it), where an action is being performed by the other avatar, not just a thought in their mind.

It seems that there are two responses to this issue....those that see it as a matter of principle, and those that do not. I suspect that also depends on how they view second life as an overall expeirence....just a game, or a true second life in a virtual world. Neither viewpoint is wrong, because it all depends on what you expect to get out of SL. Some people dont have problems with another avatar biting them, or pushing them, or pissing on them, or insulting them, because they likely dont see SL any different than HALO or CoD. The avatars are digital so for some reason that cancels out things like morality, or respect, or common decency. The fact that every avatar has a real person behind it doesnt seem to matter at all, so they will say and do whatever they want, with no expectation of concequences.

On the other side are those of us that remember that we are people, not NPC's. Feelings matter, and so do principles of how you treat others. To some of us, it doesnt matter if we interact in SL, facebook, Skype, email, telephone, or face to face. The medium of commuication is irrelevant, what matters is the attitude and intent. Does that make us better? No, it just makes us different, and more sensitive to how we are treated in SL. The issue here is not who is right or wrong, but do we respect eachother's opinions. I believe it is entirely possible to disagree with someone's point of view without resorting to name calling and insults (unlike some people who i dont need to mention).

I personally think the dove, or something like it, would be a good first start in dealing with this situation. All i want is to have the ability to defend myself against bite attacks, and not be harassed or assaulted because i choose to talk about progeny in public. Despite what Dres has accused me of, i DO NOT deliberately try to start arguments with progeny. My being vocal about it is to make others aware of the situation, so they can at least make their own decision to be bothered by it or not. Dres also said that it is none of my business...well to his POV, that might be true, but he is not me, and doesnt have the right to decide what is and is not my business. He can think what he wants, but it isnt going to affect what i do.

When you visit many websites, a cookie is stored in your browser. Consider that a sort of uninvited username, which is stored in someone's database (often Google). Your subsequent activities are then tracked and logged for use in tayloring your web experience to induce you to purchase goods and services from those who've paid to access the growing profile of your cookied username. That's a hidden manipulation intended to exact RL consequences (your spending of money).

If people feel violated by unseen machinations of unknown SL residents playing vampire with a database of virtual bites, I think it's fair to wonder if they also feel violated by the likes of Google using even more potent unseen machinations to profit from selling advertisers what they've learned about the you that will become real the moment you make a purchase. If not, what makes SL roleplay so much more sinister? It is that we're investing too much in our fantasy and not enough in our reality?

To pass the time while waiting in public places, I sometimes watch couples in conversations and create dialog in my head to explain the body language I see. If I have a willing companion, we'll tag-team them, trying to work up the most nonsensical conversation that comports with the observed behavior. Am I violating the sanctity of those unknown individuals?

As a matter of principle, what distinguishes these scenarios from each other?

Although I imagine many Bloodlines players were able to make bite requests pleasant for their victims (much as I've had great success in pinching bums all across SL), there were a signficant number of them who crossed the line into harassment. If Progeny's game model eliminates the motivation for that kind of behavior, I'd have a hard time getting upset over it.

From a purely practical standpoint, I'd much rather have Progeny continue to be completely unknown to me, with the probability that my name is not in their database, than to invoke a Dove and guarantee that insertion. I value my anonymity (which Madelaine provides to a considerable extent). The fewer the databases I'm in, the better. I can't stop databases from being created, and I can't stop them from adding me without my knowledge, but I can stop enrolling myself in them!

And finally, the OP was three years ago. Has something recently change to make Progeny rant-worthy, or are we simply responding to the first person to find fault with it here in the last three years. I've never gone three years without someone finding something in me to complain about.

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