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Mesh and unintentional nudity?


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(I'm not sure if this has been discussed before as nothing relevant came up in search or in the knowledge base.)

I'm using a version of Phoenix that doesn't see mesh objects or clothing, and I have no desire to upgrade since I won't be buying or using anything that is mesh, not just for the simple reason I would not want to be seen wearing a textured donut on my head to anyone also not using a mesh-compatible viewer.  Simple, right?

The problem is, I showed a friend some textures in a sandbox today, and I don't recall the maturity rating there -- she was wearing some sort of mesh corset top and it didn't occur to me (until now) that she appeared essentially topless to anyone not using a mesh viewer.  It didn't really click since we never venture outside of "adult" areas and situations together, but at the moment I'm aghast for not realizing it.

I'll be sure to let her know so it doesn't happen again, but it's something to keep in mind for those of you wearing mesh clothing in PG areas without some modest underwear.

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Janelle Darkstone wrote:

(I'm not sure if this has been discussed before as nothing relevant came up in search or in the knowledge base.)

I'm using a version of Phoenix that doesn't see mesh objects or clothing, and I have no desire to upgrade since I won't be buying or using anything that is mesh, not just for the simple reason I would not want to be seen wearing a textured donut on my head to anyone also not using a mesh-compatible viewer.  Simple, right?

The problem is, I showed a friend some textures in a sandbox today, and I don't recall the maturity rating there -- she was wearing some sort of mesh corset top and it didn't occur to me (until now) that she appeared essentially topless to anyone not using a mesh viewer.  It didn't really click since we never venture outside of "adult" areas and situations together, but at the moment I'm aghast for not realizing it.

I'll be sure to let her know so it doesn't happen again, but it's something to keep in mind for those of you wearing mesh clothing in PG areas without some modest underwear.

Howdy, Miss Janelle!  One thing you can do is upgrade to Phoenix 1.6.0.1600.  It can see mesh and it still has all the features of Phoenix you are used to now!  The thing with mesh clothing is that *most* of them come with alpha layers that one wears before wearing the piece of clothing that makes the body part it is covering transparent so you don't see body parts protruding through the mesh.  I have a full mesh outfit (well, pants and shirt and jacket) and I wore them all the other day along with their alpha layers.  Then I got to thinking...what am I now??  I'm a head, and hands!!  Every other part of me was invisible! 

Is this what we are all going to be soon?  Walking heads and hands??  Once I realized that, then I started thinking about sex in SL.  What if someone were preparing to engage in amazing boom boom and started taking off their mesh clothes?  In about 3 seconds, all their partners would see would be a head and hands (until, of course, all the alpha layers could be removed).  Not very conducive to romance, huh?  *laughs*

Anyway, I would suggest upgrading to at least 1600.  Sooner or later, Linden Lab will block all version 1.0 based viewers (which Phoenix is one) and you will be forced to move to a different viewer anyway.  All new residents are coming inworld with SL viewer 3.0 so they can all see mesh.  <Ridiculousless Removed>

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:

coming inworld with SL viewer 3.0 so they can all see mesh.  But you are right...if someone is in a PG area and they appear naked to someone else there because they don't have a mesh enabled viewer, one quick snapshot and an AR, and the "naked" person would be in trouble.

 

I doubt this. For a long time LLs has ignored support tickets from TPVs that relate to viewer problems. They will likely start doing the same with ARs. A person wearing mesh will still render a blob around them for a non-mesh viewer, so it'll be clear from looking - and the AR includes info on the viewers used, so they'll know from that as well.

 

Wearing mesh is not a ToS violation, so foks in G land will just have to deal with it if they refuse to upgrade. That said, its fast becomming a minority that cannot see mesh - so this will soon be a non issue. SL in general will start looking stranger and stranger to people on 2009 tech.

 

The post above me though has the ideal solution for those wedded to old viewers. Cool viewer also can see mesh, but is 'on the surface' v1, while largely v2 under the hood (you pretty much have to be v2 under the hood for many things to avoid a broken experience).

 

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Frankly, I don't care what other people see. The tools are out there for them to upgrade, including v1 viewers that are mesh-enabled for those who don't wish to or can't upgrade to the v2 viewers. When I'm wearing mesh, I am clothed. If the owner of a PG-rated location wants me to change, chances are I'll simply tp somewhere else. I have a right to wear what I want, and I'm not responsible for what those using non-mesh viewers see. Again, I'm clothed, even if they see me otherwise. It's vaguely similar to when you appear clothed on your own viewer, but others see you as unclothed. You ARE wearing clothing, but it's not rendering for others. If someone messages me and politely lets me know that I look naked to them, I may change, or I may tell them that I'm very sorry, but I'm wearing mesh, and I like my outfit. From there, they can choose how to respond.

This has come up in other forum conversations. Some people won't wear mesh until everyone can see it for just this reason. Others make sure to wear underwear under their mesh, others avoid PG regions while wearing mesh, and still others simply wear what they want and go where they want and let the non-mesh viewers deal with what they see on their own.

ETA: Avatars wearing mesh appear in non-mesh viewers to be slightly deformed and wearing strange objects - donuts, squares, etc. It should be fairly obvious to any Linden reviewing such a case that the avatar who was reported was wearing mesh, and the avatar who made the report was using a non-mesh viewer. Wearing mesh is not in any way against the ToS, so...

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There are a bunch of people using old obsolete viewers not compatible with inventory changes made recently and those people are naked in the latest LL beta. So it isn't just mesh that is an issue. Oz warned the open source dev list this might happen.

Mesh is happening. May as well get used to it. One pair of mesh thigh highs only has a draw weight of 3k or so while a simple pair of sculpty shoes is 10k per shoe. I know people don't care but if using an old viewer because of viewer performance then you might consider converting to all mesh stuff on a current mesh viewer. Might actually run better for you. At least when mesh becomes prevalent anyway.

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Ann Otoole wrote:

Mesh is happening. May as well get used to it. One pair of mesh thigh highs only has a draw weight of 3k or so while a simple pair of sculpty shoes is 10k per shoe. I know people don't care but if using an old viewer because of viewer performance then you might consider converting to all mesh stuff on a current mesh viewer. Might actually run better for you. At least when mesh becomes prevalent anyway.

Ann speaks gold here.

Mesh will, if done right - and many of the mesh makers are old pros from Poser/Renderosity/Daz3D so they know how to do it right - mesh can actually perform -faster- with less lag than sculpty.

The only performance hits people will take from a mesh viewer is if they happen to upgrade during an update that has a bug which impacts their particular graphics card. If that happens, try assorted other recent releases, TPVs, and betas, or wait for the next patch after filing a JIRA.

 

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Ann Otoole wrote:

There are a bunch of people using old obsolete viewers not compatible with inventory changes made recently and those people are naked in the latest LL beta. So it isn't just mesh that is an issue. Oz warned the open source dev list this might happen.

This is, um, utter nonsense. If you are seeing lots of naked people then there is probably something wrong with your setup.

The server side changes that can make this nudity issue possible are not active on the main grid yet. The changes are only running on four regions on Aditi, the preview grid.

The nudity issue will only apply to one very specific circumstance, when one opens a rezzed prim and uses the "copy and wear" button. It is not a general inventory issue.

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Nothing odd about my setup. It is the same setup I have used for years. Default LL current published beta version with no tweaks. I am seeing more people with attachments and no system clothing. Maybe they just like to walk around that way.

Anyway I find it somewhat amusing. A few months ago I was naked in someone else's viewer (for which they kicked me out of a venue even though I was dressed) so the naked bug is definitely out there.

The only solution for G rated region inadvertent nudity is underwear painted directly on the skin. If concerned there are such skins in the Library.

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I'm amazed by some of the mesh creations I see in SL now.  By not having a mesh viewer, increasingly you'll be missing out on an enriched visual experience.   

I know that mesh objects can take a while to rez properly, but that's the same with sculpts.  So the choice boils down to that between having lots of grey spheres all over you or lots of grey sharp triangles!

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:

 

... But you are right...if someone is in a PG area and they appear naked to someone else there because they don't have a mesh enabled viewer, one quick snapshot and an AR, and the "naked" person would be in trouble.

Do you really think that it is the fault of somebody using mesh if another person using old viewer sees them partially naked?

Linden Lab is well aware of this problem and they don't mind. Linden Lab have stated that old non mesh enabled viewers will phase out naturally as more and more users will switch to mesh enabled viewers. Thus the probled stated here is a temporary problem which will pass away.

If somebody sticks to old viewer it is their choice. Or they might be forced to use old viewer if their computer cannot run mesh viewers. Old viewer users must suffer the consequences of seeing odd objects on others using mesh, even occasional partial nakedness. It is the observer's problem, not the wearer's problem.

Abuse reporting somebody using something which Linden Lab has officially released? Really?

Such ARs will be totally ignored by Linden Lab.

According to Linden Lab, over 70 percent of residents are already using mesh enabled viewers now. Mesh is not something to be avoided like a plaque "until all users will be using mesh enabled viewers".

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:

 

Anyway, I would suggest upgrading to at least 1600.  Sooner or later, Linden Lab will block all version 1.0 based viewers (which Phoenix is one) and you will be forced to move to a different viewer anyway.  All new residents are coming inworld with SL viewer 3.0 so they can all see mesh.  But you are right...if someone is in a PG area and they appear naked to someone else there because they don't have a mesh enabled viewer, one quick snapshot and an AR, and the "naked" person would be in trouble.

LL might stop supporting any 1.23 viewers, but that doesn't mean they will block TPV 1.23 logins. For one Coolviewer latest versions are 1.23's UI based but with a V3 engine (i.e the same Library files as V3)...it would be very hard to block that particular viewer as it would also be blocking off their own official V3 viewers at login.

The Coolviewer can view Mesh and shadows just like V3, but with a 1.23 UI and with several memory leaks plugged, so it chews up less CPU than most other viewers including Pheonix & Firestorm.

With gradually decreasing SL concurrency during the last 24 mths,** i doubt very much LL would want to reduce it even further by choking off all the TPV 1.23 viewers or even it's own official one. One has to take into account users with low end machines that might have difficulty usings LL's latest viewers.....even Firestorm & Pheonix can be CPU & GPU hungry.

** another 100 Estate Sims dropped off the Grid this week

 

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Coby Foden wrote:


Marcus Hancroft wrote:

 

... But you are right...if someone is in a PG area and they appear naked to someone else there because they don't have a mesh enabled viewer, one quick snapshot and an AR, and the "naked" person would be in trouble.

Do you really think that it is the fault of somebody using mesh if another person using old viewer sees them partially naked?

Linden Lab is well aware of this problem and they don't mind. Linden Lab have stated that old non mesh enabled viewers will phase out naturally as more and more users will switch to mesh enabled viewers. Thus the probled stated here is a temporary problem which will pass away.

If somebody sticks to old viewer it is their choice. Or they might be forced to use old viewer if their computer cannot run mesh viewers. Old viewer users must suffer the consequences of seeing odd objects on others using mesh, even occasional partial nakedness. It is the observer's problem, not the wearer's problem.

Abuse reporting somebody using something which Linden Lab has officially released? Really?

Such ARs will be totally ignored by Linden Lab.

According to Linden Lab, over 70 percent of residents are already using mesh enabled viewers now. Mesh is not something to be avoided like a plaque "until all users will be using mesh enabled viewers".

OK, OK...I get it everybody.  I didn't even think about this when I responded to the OP and everybody sure jumped on me with all four feet!  Ridiculous part of my original response has been deleted.

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This problem has been pointed out to the Lindens on many occasions since the advent of mesh.

I do hope that whoever reviews AR's is aware of this.

I am one of those who mesh viewers give my computer heartburn.  I drop from 40FPS in V2 code down to 5FPS in V3.  So I see a little bit of unintended nudity.  Several hours of work on it and I still have not been able to find a solution.  Frustrating.

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

i read the OP i didn't read your post or anyone elses..my response was to the OP

Yes, you're right, Miss Ceka.  I'm Sorry.  I just saw everybody jumpin on the AR comment and didn't see that you weren't talkin to me.  My mistake and I apologize for it.
:)

i understand =)

there is no need to say sorry to me =)

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Ann Otoole wrote:

There are a bunch of people using
old obsolete viewers
not compatible with inventory changes made recently and those people are naked in the latest LL beta. So it isn't just mesh that is an issue. Oz warned the open source dev list this might happen.

Mesh is happening. May as well get used to it. One pair of mesh thigh highs only has a draw weight of 3k or so while a simple pair of sculpty shoes is 10k per shoe. I know people don't care but if using an old viewer because of viewer performance then you might consider converting to all mesh stuff on a current mesh viewer. Might actually run better for you. At least when mesh becomes prevalent anyway.

At this moment in time, "obsolete" is too strong a word.

We may be in a period of transition regarding mesh, but there are still plenty of people choosing to stay on a viewer that they're comfortable with. It's not a hanging offence, and neither is choosing to progress to mesh, if that lights your candle.

@Janelle, you had a valid point, about the nudity, and I know, from what we were talking about inworld last night, that you care about that particular old friend not realising they were exposing themselves, and now have taken to warning others via these forums. Your intentions are good. 

It's just a shame that "mesh" has become as much of a controversial word as "ageplay".  We all need to get over that and realise that the very essence of Second Life is to show ourselves as very individual people, not just sheep who all bunch together.

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:


Rene Erlanger wrote:


<snip>

** another 100 Estate Sims dropped off the Grid this week

 

/me shakes his head

Are we just going to be left with nothing but Linden owned mainland??

No there will always be a good number of Estate sims (currently 23k)...and there will always be some sort of demand for residential or commerical plots to rent......thats not really the issue. The problem is how many 1000's of Estate sims would LL need to lose to hit their own break-even point .....or even go into the red? To put it into perspective. they've lost 1500 sims since the beginning of 2011....how much Tier income has LL lost for 2012?

Let's attempt an approx calculation. According to Gridsurvey.com -> 56.4% of Private Estate regions are Full Regions, 43.3% Homesteads & 0.3% Openspaces

We can determine average Tier charge per sim =.> ($295 x 56.4% + $125 x 43.3%+ $75 x 0.3%) = $223 approx  => so that's 1500 sims x $223 average Tier cost x 11 mths  =3.68 Million USD Tier income lost for 2012!  (annualised its 4.014 Mill)

So the question remains, how many more sims can be abandoned before alarm bells start sounding off at LL offices?

The above doesn't account for Mainland abandonment and lost of Tiers there. We do have titbits of information though => 43.0% of Mainland owned directly by Linden Accounts (Contiguous Mainland is 6723 regions including Linden Home regions) with 6.7% to 7.8% of Mainland by area are abandoned parcels...generally it looks like any gains or losses in Mainland Tier over ther same period has been minimal...and can be ignored.

My guess is that if LL lost another 3 to 4k worth of Estate sims, I think the company would be in trouble. ACS & RGF the 2 biggest SL Estates own 13.5% of Estate sims (approx 3150 sims)...if those both left SL !!.....eeeekk!

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Marigold Devin wrote:


Ann Otoole wrote:

There are a bunch of people using
old obsolete viewers
not compatible with inventory changes made recently and those people are naked in the latest LL beta. So it isn't just mesh that is an issue. Oz warned the open source dev list this might happen.

Mesh is happening. May as well get used to it. One pair of mesh thigh highs only has a draw weight of 3k or so while a simple pair of sculpty shoes is 10k per shoe. I know people don't care but if using an old viewer because of viewer performance then you might consider converting to all mesh stuff on a current mesh viewer. Might actually run better for you. At least when mesh becomes prevalent anyway.

At this moment in time, "obsolete" is too strong a word.

Like it or not, its an accurate term.

Non-mesh viewers of a thing of the past. Obsoleted by the current technology. Both officially, and in terms of prevalence.

 


Melita Magic wrote:

I'd definitely say, most people cannot see mesh properly yet - so wearing a flesh colored thong and pasties at the very least won't kill anybody('s avatar.)

70% of viewers connecting to SL now can see mesh. Most people and 30% are usually not seen as synonyms. ;)

 "Flesh colored"... is not something "most people" can find. As its only usually made for the 'Not most people' that are caucasian (who I would guess probably are 70% or more of SL (unlike RL), making them 'not most people' but a minority according to the terms above. :D

But what it all comes down to, simply put, is that there's no reason to bother. Mesh is a core part of SL now. Its normal clothing. You wear mesh clothes - you're clothed.

If someone has a glitch preventing them from seeing a normal part of SL, that burden to address that glitch is on them. Not people using SL as normally intended and designed.

 

And now that the $800 suite of applications from Daz3D just went free for the month of February, the bar for getting into making Mesh content just went down by a -LOT-, so its likely to get a good boost.

http://catnapkitty.wordpress.com/2012/02/06/breaking-news-for-february-only-daz-studio-pro-bryze-7-and-hexagon-2-5-free-from-daz3d-for-february-giving-sl-mesh-creators-a-powerful-suite-of-apps-to-work-with/

 

 

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:


 

And now that the $800 suite of applications from Daz3D just went free for the month of February, the bar for getting into making Mesh content just went down by a -LOT-, so its likely to get a good boost.

 

 

Yep, I downloaded all the Daz programs last night...it states "Free for a limited time!"  i think the offer is to 11th Feb according to my download page though.

A few posters in the Merchant forums pointed out correctly, that good Mesh builders and indeed the professional ones have so many outlets online to sell their creations for 100's of USD... that they are unlikely to really be interested in selling within Second Life's mircopayments economy. It looks like creation & selling of Mesh products within SL will be more for the Hobbybist and existing set of SL Creators.

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Rene Erlanger wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:


 And now that the $800 suite of applications from Daz3D just went free for the month of February, the bar for getting into making Mesh content just went down by a -LOT-, so its likely to get a good boost. 


A few posters in the Merchant forums pointed out correctly, that good Mesh builders and indeed the professional ones have so many outlets online to sell their creations for 100's of USD... that they are unlikely to really be interested in selling within Second Life's mircopayments economy. It looks like creation & selling of Mesh products within SL will be more for the Hobbybist and existing set of SL Creators.

Quite a large number of SLs current crop of builders actually come out of the Daz / Poser modeling community. So there's an interest from them in being able to put their full skills to use in the platform they socialize within. I suspect this is already driving some of what we see in mesh. Much of it does not look like beginner work.

But further, tools like the Daz tool allow non-modelers to also enter the fray.

 

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