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Lets discuss - SL last names post from Rodvik Linden in the feeds.

DQ Darwin

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Charolotte Caxton

Charolotte Caxton

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I've never used a display name either, does it get rid of the capitalization in our name? That would be horrid! Sounds silly, I know, but if the name above my head were suddenly rendered as charolotte.caxton, well, I don't know what I would do. I guess I would start using a display name..hmmm, interesting.

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Ceka Cianci

Ceka Cianci

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

I've never used a display name either, does it get rid of the capitalization in our name? That would be horrid! Sounds silly, I know, but if the name above my head were suddenly rendered as charolotte.caxton, well, I don't know what I would do. I guess I would start using a display name..hmmm, interesting.

ya because actually the cap version is a display name..they just made us with two names of the same name..

your real user name is the one with the dot in the middle while the caps version is the actual display name..so if you change it  then it will be gone..now i don't know if we could get them back or not..

maybe..i just remember Torley saying that if you use a display name we will lose the caps version of our user name..so i never did it hehehe

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Dillon Levenque

Dillon Levenque

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Thank you.

I would venture to say that perhaps if having many inactive accounts is a draw to the system then one might say that if an immersionist really cared for the community, they would be willing to sacrifice themselves for the betterment of all.

 

NOT! Ain't sacrificing myself for the benefit of anybody. Period.

On the other hand, any account that has been inactive for more than a year, let alone three, is neither immersionist nor anything else. It's just inactive. Yes, there might be some who were inactive for reasons beyond their control but they could still reconnect. Any friends they had that are still here (and what other reason for coming back to SL as another avatar matters besides reuniting with friends?) would be fine knowing them by a different name. I don't see it as an issue.

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Charolotte Caxton

Charolotte Caxton

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Thank you.

I would venture to say that perhaps if having many inactive accounts is a draw to the system then one might say that if an immersionist really cared for the community, they would be willing to sacrifice themselves for the betterment of all.

 

NOT! Anti sacrificing myself for the benefit of anybody. Period.

On the other hand, any account that has been inactive for more than a year, let alone three, is neither immersions nor anything else. It's just inactive. Yes, there might be some who were inactive for reasons beyond their control but they could still reconnect. Any friends they had that are still here (and what other reason for coming back to SL as another avatar matters besides reuniting with friends?) would be fine knowing them by a different name. I don't see it as an issue.

What other reasons are there for coming back to Second Life other than friends? Do you want me to list them or just say that there are very many reasons? Not everyone is here for friends, and not everyone who has friends here is here for them. Friends can be made in any life, as of Feb 2012, I have not yet been able to find the powers within myself that let me fly, create matter out of thin air, teleport into other's dreams and art, or change my appearance on a whim. Those are just the superficial reasons, we could go in depth about exploring aspects of our personalities, experimenting with different art mediums, and philosophical motivators as well.

With that in mind, if I were to suddenly find myself in an unfortunate incident that prevented me from logging into my account for three years, to come back and discover that Charolotte Caxton was now in the hands of some other stranger, well, creating a new avatar would be akin to waking up from a coma to find myself in another person's body while my own body was inhabited by someone else. Yes, I would be alive, but what kind of (Second) Life would it be?

As far as the sacrificing oneself, like I said, if an immersionist really cared for the community and if their sacrifice would benefit all. Otherwise, it would indeed be a pointless waste. 

 

 

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Amethyst Jetaime

Amethyst Jetaime

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Aside from the reasons other have mentioned about why a recycling of names would be problematic here are a few more that were not mentioned that I'll point out:

Some creators have trademarked their avatar name. They can't be reused. Legally a trademark owner is not required to send notice of their ownership to everyone, it would be up to LL to determine this through checking the trademark database.

An avatar is considered the property of its creator as well as everything that person created under that avatar name.  This is why LL requires a death certificate plus a copy of the will or probate order to allow anyone to take over the account or even access it to retrieve any of the deceased persons property.  A precedent has been set that the avatar's name is the unique identifier.  So at the least they would probably need to get a legal release from the avatar's owner or heirs to reuse the name.

People do die in RL.  If you had someone that you cared deeply about in SL pass away you wouldn't want to see someone else walking around with their name.  There are also memorials in SL to people that died in RL.  A newb may find it a bit disconcerting to discover a memorial with their name on it. 

There are literally billions of names in the RL world and probably billions more that could be invented.  I doubt that running out of names to use as a last name is going to be anything to worry about.  So there is no real reason to recycle names.  To prevent reuse LL doesn't have to retain all the data on the entire account,just a list of names.

@Deltango:

Sharing inventory between several avatars owned by the same RL person will not happen because the IP rights of everything in that inventory that wasn't personally created in all its parts (prims, textures, scripts, animations, sculpt maps etc.) belong to to the original creators and their permission would be needed.  A precedent has been set that one avatar owns an item and if you want the same thing for another one, you have to buy it again. LL can't arbitrarily change this for items already created.  The whole TOS would need to be changed and would only apply to new creations. It would increase prices you'd pay for things in the future. Creators would be justified to charge an extra fee for each avatar that will 'share' an item or charge a lot more for an item to cover all avatars that one person may own. which wouldn't be fair to people that only have one avatar.  This also would this present a logistical problem for LL to somehow only make items with a multiple avatar license available in all your avatar inventories and not the items which you only have a one avatar license for.  Not that this couldn't be done, but their time is better spent fixing the things wrong than setting this up.  This is why you can't teleport between SL and another grid now.  The technology exists but the legal  IP rights issues haven't been solved yet to allow you to arrive in the other grid with your avatar intact with the hair, skin clothes etc you were wearing, let alone its inventory.

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Gavin Hird

Gavin Hird

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Any IP rights that would be applicapble is between RL persons and not between avatar personas that RL person might hold. So there is no IP rights issues that must be changed. Some wording in the TOS might have to change, but nothing earth shattering.

It is also not super complicated to make such a change technically as they only need to implement an owner hierarchy where an alt UUID is owned by a master UUID, which is connected to the RL identity. 

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Amethyst Jetaime

Amethyst Jetaime

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Yes, IP rights belong to the RL person not their avatar..  But as a creator and  holder of IP rights, I sold my items under terms that a no transfer item was owned by a single avatar in SL and could not be 'shared' with another avatar and that a transfer enabled item would only be owned by one avatar or group, if deeded to a group,  in SL at a time and not be legally transfered to another grid the person has an avatar on without my specific permission.  This is exactly why you can't tp between grids right now and why LL won't transfer your inventory to a new avatar you create in SL if you request it.  I've been in meetings with LL where this was discussed.

The technical logistics may be not be super complicated, I have no idea since i'm not a programmer.  However if your right about how it could be accomplished, it would require people to disclose RL identity, which judging from the posts on this forum on the subject a large number of if not most people are opposed to.

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Gavin Hird

Gavin Hird

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 ...it would require people to disclose RL identity, which judging from the posts on this forum on the subject a large number of if not most people are opposed to.

Everyone register with an email address, right? So the main would have to be registered to an email (real or fake), the alts would be registred to the main as identities of the main. 

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Gavin Hird

Gavin Hird

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It would be exactly as now. 

Now every account (main or alt) is registered to an arbitrary email address that may be real or fake. So you don't have a clue in reality who's behind an identity. 

In my proposal, every main would be registred to an arbitrary email address (same as above), and all alts would be registered to the main. So also here the identity is known in the same manner as before. There is just fewer email addresses involved. 

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Charolotte Caxton

Charolotte Caxton

Posted
Posted

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Aside from the reasons other have mentioned about why a recycling of names would be problematic here are a few more that were not mentioned that I'll point out:

Some creators have trademarked their avatar name. They can't be reused. Legally a trademark owner is not required to send notice of their ownership to everyone, it would be up to LL to determine this through checking the trademark database.

An avatar is considered the property of its creator as well as everything that person created under that avatar name.  This is why LL requires a death certificate plus a copy of the will or probate order to allow anyone to take over the account or even access it to retrieve any of the deceased persons property.  A precedent has been set that the avatar's name is the unique identifier.  So at the least they would probably need to get a legal release from the avatar's owner or heirs to reuse the name.

People do die in RL.  If you had someone that you cared deeply about in SL pass away you wouldn't want to see someone else walking around with their name.  There are also memorials in SL to people that died in RL.  A newb may find it a bit disconcerting to discover a memorial with their name on it. 

There are literally billions of names in the RL world and probably billions more that could be invented.  I doubt that running out of names to use as a last name is going to be anything to worry about.  So there is no real reason to recycle names.  To prevent reuse LL doesn't have to retain all the data on the entire account,just a list of names.

@Deltango:

Sharing inventory between several avatars owned by the same RL person will not happen because the IP rights of everything in that inventory that wasn't personally created in all its parts (prims, textures, scripts, animations, sculpt maps etc.) belong to to the original creators and their permission would be needed.  A precedent has been set that one avatar owns an item and if you want the same thing for another one, you have to buy it again. LL can't arbitrarily change this for items already created.  The whole TOS would need to be changed and would only apply to new creations. It would increase prices you'd pay for things in the future. Creators would be justified to charge an extra fee for each avatar that will 'share' an item or charge a lot more for an item to cover all avatars that one person may own. which wouldn't be fair to people that only have one avatar.  This also would this present a logistical problem for LL to somehow only make items with a multiple avatar license available in all your avatar inventories and not the items which you only have a one avatar license for.  Not that this couldn't be done, but their time is better spent fixing the things wrong than setting this up.  This is why you can't teleport between SL and another grid now.  The technology exists but the legal  IP rights issues haven't been solved yet to allow you to arrive in the other grid with your avatar intact with the hair, skin clothes etc you were wearing, let alone its inventory.

Thank you for bringing up those very informative points and for the explanations.

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Amethyst Jetaime

Amethyst Jetaime

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Gavin Hird wrote:

It would be exactly as now. 

Now every account (main or alt) is registered to an arbitrary email address that may be real or fake. So you don't have a clue in reality who's behind an identity. 

In my proposal, every main would be registred to an arbitrary email address (same as above), and all alts would be registered to the main. So also here the identity is known in the same manner as before. There is just fewer email addresses involved. 

Maybe so, BUT as of now I sell my items at retail to ONE avatar at a time, and have NOT granted permission for them to be shared by mulitple avatars under ANY circumstance, other than transfer enabled items deeded to a group, and need not be concerned about RL identities.  Even deeded to group items can only be in one inventory at a time if not rezzed in world.  I would be concerned about RL identities though if multiple avatars owned by one person could share inventories and email is NOT sufficient proof of identity for this purpose for me.  Maybe it is for you, but that's a decision you make for your creations, not mine.

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Gavin Hird

Gavin Hird

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Posted

Technically you don't sell to an avatar, but to an account. Currently there is a one-to-one relationship between an account and an avatar. However, redefining an account to have multiple avatars would keep everyone in the clear from a legal standpoint with minimal to no changes to the TOS. 

 

 

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Dillon Levenque

Dillon Levenque

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

What other reasons are there for coming back to Second Life other than friends? Do you want me to list them or just say that there are very many reasons? Not everyone is here for friends, and not everyone who has friends here is here for them. Friends can be made in any life, as of Feb 2012, I have not yet been able to find the powers within myself that let me fly, create matter out of thin air, teleport into other's dreams and art, or change my appearance on a whim. Those are just the superficial reasons, we could go in depth about exploring aspects of our personalities, experimenting with different art mediums, and philosophical motivators as well.

With that in mind, if I were to suddenly find myself in an unfortunate incident that prevented me from logging into my account for three years, to come back and discover that Charolotte Caxton was now in the hands of some other stranger, well, creating a new avatar would be akin to waking up from a coma to find myself in another person's body while my own body was inhabited by someone else. Yes, I would be alive, but what kind of (Second) Life would it be?

 

You're right about the zillion other reasons, of course. I meant by my comment that the only reason for insisting on the same name would be to reunite with friends and I think that would be relatively easy even if I had a different name. I had not considered your main point: finding out someone else was using my name. I admit that would be kind of creepy. As for the rest of my SL: my house, my stuff, even my avatar—those are things I could recreate. I might not like it but I wouldn't be devastated. I wouldn't expect LL to keep all that information stored on a server pending my possible return.

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Charolotte Caxton

Charolotte Caxton

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Posted

Dillon Levenque wrote:

Charolotte Caxton wrote:

What other reasons are there for coming back to Second Life other than friends? Do you want me to list them or just say that there are very many reasons? Not everyone is here for friends, and not everyone who has friends here is here for them. Friends can be made in any life, as of Feb 2012, I have not yet been able to find the powers within myself that let me fly, create matter out of thin air, teleport into other's dreams and art, or change my appearance on a whim. Those are just the superficial reasons, we could go in depth about exploring aspects of our personalities, experimenting with different art mediums, and philosophical motivators as well.

With that in mind, if I were to suddenly find myself in an unfortunate incident that prevented me from logging into my account for three years, to come back and discover that Charolotte Caxton was now in the hands of some other stranger, well, creating a new avatar would be akin to waking up from a coma to find myself in another person's body while my own body was inhabited by someone else. Yes, I would be alive, but what kind of (Second) Life would it be?

 

You're right about the zillion other reasons, of course. I meant by my comment that the only reason for insisting on the same name would be to reunite with friends and I think that would be relatively easy even if I had a different name. I had not considered your main point: finding out someone else was using my name. I admit that would be kind of creepy. As for the rest of my SL: my house, my stuff, even my avatar—those are things I could recreate. I might not like it but I wouldn't be devastated. I wouldn't expect LL to keep all that information stored on a server pending my possible return.

Agreed. Inventory can be replaced, better stuff can be got, but identity defines who we are, if only to ourselves. 

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Ranya Palmer

Ranya Palmer

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Posted

I know everybody wants last names to return and fast, and just saying that it should not be that hard to bring back something that was already there from the beginning of second life is not going to completely solve the problem, yeah it will solve one problem but there is another problem that will still be there, unless it gets solved too, and this problem goes back to when last names was available.

Back when last names was pre-selected from a drop down list, some of the last names on the list looked like random words put together and some others just did not make any sense, and now we have Resident as the current and only last name.

Just think about this for a second, what if bringing back last names isn't the only thing being considered, what if they are trying to make it possible for an avatar to change their name to a more desired one, I am not talking about display names, I am talking about the username or legacy names for us with last names, I understand that you want the last names back as soon as possible and it should be as simple as it was for them to take it away but now they are trying to give it back, and again that would only solve one of the problems. Back when we had to select a last name, not all the last names were decent ones, some last names were down right ugly and did not make any sense and some first names were even worse, the fact is that some people with legacy names didn't have much of a choice when it came to last names either and that was just as bad as Resident is now as a last name, so it makes sense to assume that changing one's name would also be possible, this unlike just bringing back last names would be harder to implement and if done poorly can result in everything in the inventory breaking and becoming virtually unusable and I know nobody wants that.

Having the option to change your avatar's name would solve the other problem, being stuck with a dumb name and being forced to use a display name that most will not see because they have the display name turned off in their viewer is the only option that's available to those with odd names, and don't say "well if they want another name then create another account" some people may have invested time and money into their account and they may want to keep all of their inventory so creating a new account for the sake of getting a new name is not an option for them.

For now, we should just wait and hope that they don't go back to the last name list and pre-select names that they think we want, and lets just hope that they do something right for a change.

 

FYI, forgive me if this was mentioned already, i just did not feel like reading through 12 more pages before posting.

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Cinnamon Mistwood

Cinnamon Mistwood

Posted
Posted

about 2pm SLT Rodvick put this on his feed:

https://my.secondlife.com/rodvik.linden/posts/4f285951be9e8f0001002204

 

heh, nope been very engaged on the issue. I will respond tomorrow in full. I have learnt a LOT about the naming issue why things were changed. It is a very polarizing issue and finding a win / win for those who love naming freedom to those who love the bonding nature of pre picked names has proven impossible to do well. However I do have one feature we can commit to and a discussion going forward about another way to skin the cat. Will update tomorrow in more depth.

about 8 hours ago

Maybe we will find something out tomorrow.

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