What on earth are clothing designers thinking???

[Pazzo Pestana]

Why do clothing designers add sculpty items to their outfits, items that can't be modified!!! Given the infinite variety of shapes and sizes in SL, one would think that being able to re-size a sculpty clothing object is a no-brainer. Even the resizing script is often useless. Why not just make a sculpty clothing item re-sizeable? What is so difficult about that? And, with mesh appearing more and more in clothing, the issue is even more critical, I think. I think that fashion (female more than male) is the height of creativity in SL ... it's a shame that being able to adjust the items to fit one's avatar is so frustrating.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Have you contacted the creator?  Maybe it was a mistake on their part when they packed it, or it could be a product of the permission change but that appears once in a while.  I'd go back to the shop where I bought it or check the listing on Marketplace if that's where you got it and see what it says about modifying prim parts.  If it indicates that its mod, the creator should replace the no mod items.  If it has a resizer that doesn't work, they should replace that too.   If it said no mod, then perhaps the creator will either refund your money or fit it to you if you explain the problem and ask politely.  Most creators want satisfied customers, so it never hurts to ask.

Otherwise always be sure that the sales info says it is mod or has a resizer before you buy it.  If it doesn't state specifically what the permissions are, don't buy it..  Personally I won't buy clothing that has no mod prim parts, even if it has a resizer.

[Monti Messmer]

Just to add. Rigged mesh is no-mod, so with mesh coming into SL we better get used to fit our shape to clothes or avoid mesh until the deformer project works and is implemented in the main viewers.

Monti

[Sassy Romano]

not accurate Monti. Rigged mesh can still be modify as far as textures and other object attributes but it cannot be changed in shape it size...yet.

 

The mesh deformed project will remove the biggest problem around rigged mesh as it will allow the mesh item to fit the morphed avatar shape.

[Coby Foden]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

 

not accurate Monti. Rigged mesh can still be modify as far as textures and other object attributes but it cannot be changed in shape it size...yet.

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Right Sassy. I wonder why a lot of rigged mesh items are no mod? Aren't all designers aware that rigged mesh can be set to be modifiable? Modify permission has an advantage that if we want to tint the color, for example, then we can do it. Naturally we cannot resize modifiable rigged mesh, but we can tweak other attributes.

For me in most cases, no mod (and also no copy) equals to no buy.

[Jennifer Boyle]

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Copy Fodder wrote:

For me in most cases,

no mod

(and also no copy) equals to

no buy

.

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I agree.  However, I think that one thing that is wrong with clothes-buying in SL is that most of the time there is no opportunity to try things on before buying them.  I know there are exceptions like skins, shapes, and mesh items, which have demos.  It would be better if demos were customarily offered for clothing in general.

I've been thinking of trying to start a consumer movement to encourage venders to offer demos routinely by promoting ones who do to each other.  What do others think of the idea?

[Davido Chrome]

SL do need a consumers right movement.

[Jenni Darkwatch]

Simply don't buy no-mod items. That's what I do in 99% of all cases. Voting with your wallet does work, believe it or not.

[Rihanna Irata]

I hate when furniture are beeing sold no copy, the crappy ones are copy but the ones that are just buetiful are always no copy. Just sayin

[Davido Chrome]

Never buy furniture no copy. One rollback and your furniture is gone...

[TaraSimone Sixpence]

You need to make a differentiation here, and understand what it all means.

Prim clothing such as dresses, gowns and sculpties can be made with Demo. Just like the hair has a "demo" sign on it when you take Demos. But here is the rub.

1. Take just a simple dress. So you put the demo sign on it. Fine and good.

2. Take a gown or a complete set. There could be as many as 8 different prim and sculpted pieces in there all with resize (which you will need to demo). That is attaching 8 demo signs to 8 different pieces, some of which are not large. Such a thing is usually unfeasable. 

3. Boots and shoes - you could to it with boots and shoes. One demo for a color. Attach a large sign to it. Again leaving them out of proportion with no perms would not solve the problem. So it must be added.

4. The worst problem is when you are dealing with an item or a set that contains SL layers. Say you have a set. Top, shorts, socks and shoes. The top, shorts and socks are in SL Layers. So what a designer needs to do is splash the word demo on EACH of those upload, and then create a demo set.

All the above is a great deal of work. A great deal of work. Especially adding it all the time of actually creating, packaging and putting in a vendor a collection.

There is something else that  you should be aware of. A lot of designers, and I am one of them, have ceased to mark clothing Modify, because it has a script for resize. That script (whichever is being used) usually causes the clothing to come out of the package,marked as No Modify, even though in essence it is. The reason I stopped marking it Modify, is because some customers were confused by the Modify option. They thought oh...it is modify, so i can change the colors and do what I want to the textures. So in order to avoid that confusion I and others mark such as items as no modify, and just put on the vendor or in the product notecared "Resize script". 

I have nothing against consumer movements and I personally think it may be a good idea. But you do have to be realistic within the constraints of SL. SL is in the end a virtual environment. Not all clothing is equal. you have SL layers, Prims, Sculpts and Mesh and soon deformed Mesh. Each one of these to produce a "demo" is a fairly complicated and long process. 

Interestingly enough I set up HoloVendors for some of the prim skirt collections and boot collections I have. Those rez the boot or skirt in front of you. Yet, customers seem to buy from the vendors, and ignore the Holo Vendors (which is a step below trying on an outfit.)

Another final worry of the Demo idea, is that in SL layers a lot of customers (It is not only designers that are at fault here), but customers will take an SL layer piece of clothing with the word DEMO splashed over the textures, and still wear them. 

I think all this should be taken into account before one calls designers to task for not including demos.

Finally, most good designers, will gladly give you a gown for free if you contact them and they think you are for real in wanting to purchase it, to try for yourself. Like it...buy it. Dont like it .. delete it. All you have to do is contact them and most are fairly amenable to this request as long as it does not go overboard. 

My 2 cents...

[Sassy Romano]

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Random Sixpence wrote:

There is something else that  you should be aware of. A lot of designers, and I am one of them, have ceased to mark clothing Modify, because it has a script for resize. That script (whichever is being used) usually causes the clothing to come out of the package,marked as No Modify, even though in essence it is. The reason I stopped marking it Modify, is because some customers were confused by the Modify option. They thought oh...it is modify, so i can change the colors and do what I want to the textures. So in order to avoid that confusion I and others mark such as items as no modify, and just put on the vendor or in the product notecared "Resize script". 

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I'm trying to understand this.  First, that resize script is no replacement for the ability to correctly fit an item.  They rarely permit proper adjustment and just change size, not shape.  Here's my suggestion, from the ground up, build the item using the move and size options of that resize script, then convince me that it's a valid substitute for the SL edit facility

Second, you stopped offering modify because ... it's modify and customers were confused?

Yes if it's Modify, exactly they can change the colours and textures, that's the point no?

Typically, the reason that most creators do this is to sell multiple sets of the same thing in different texture styles and tones, that's fair enough for layer clothing but the moment it has prims... MODIFY ALL THE WAY for the prim parts at minimum.

The reason to make the items no modify in your post appear contraditory to the benefit of the customer.

[Monti Messmer]

One former post was more about demos, let me throw my stone into the pond.

A creator, desginer, spend hours in texturing a nice pair of blue trousers. It takes a long time to fake pockets and wrinkles, light effects, seems and whatever else.

Now a customer hate blue but still buy them, change the color to black and shorten them to 75%. Left we have some ugly black bermudas, far away from the original creation. Of course its the customers freedom to do so but still the name of the creator is on that item. If others ask or check who made it, the creator get the fame or blame even for the modifications the customer did.

Prim (sculpty, mesh - if possible) parts should be modify because resize scripts not allways work smooth. At the end there should be more permissions you can set on your creations. Leave the lenght mod but not the texture and color .... for example.

Monti

[TaraSimone Sixpence]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

I'm trying to understand this.  First, that resize script is no replacement for the ability to correctly fit an item.  They rarely permit proper adjustment and just change size, not shape.  Here's my suggestion, from the ground up, build the item using the move and size options of that resize script, then convince me that it's a valid substitute for the SL edit facility

Second, you stopped offering modify because ... it's modify and customers were confused?

Yes if it's Modify, exactly they can change the colours and textures, that's the point no?

Typically, the reason that most creators do this is to sell multiple sets of the same thing in different texture styles and tones, that's fair enough for layer clothing but the moment it has prims... MODIFY ALL THE WAY for the prim parts at minimum.

The reason to make the items no modify in your post appear contraditory to the benefit of the customer.

---

Nope that is not the point. I think most of the established designers will say that we do not want our texturing and techniques used to be changed. If I produce a collection, and I always work in collections, say of a dress, and I apply texturing techniques to it, outside of SL, and you buy the dress, and then go ahead and texture it the way you desire, be it your taste or not...that is not my creation. It is yours. And I do not want, nor does any other designer want, customers making their own designs. In that case, you may as well visit the Template shops, buy a template, and create exactly what you want with your own textures.

If you are talking about using SL colors to use for an item of clothing, well, then, sorry I have only one collection out of over 250 that will allow that and uses SL coloring. I would never even consider using SL coloring these days. That is just well, it is just not what designers do. They use serious texturing techniques outside of SL with textures they created or purchased and change them in different ways to create unique clothing items. So why would I want someone to change the texturing on an item of mine? They dont like it, I can understand that. They do not like any of the colors in the collection I can understand that as well. But designers do not produce templates (at least not the ones that have been established in SL.) And even when they do use templates to create they change them around to suit what they are making in their own unique way.

So again NO. I have no desire for someone to take a dress I made apply their own colors and textures and then walk around with it with my name on it as the creator. It is not what a designer does nor is it a road to being viable in SL. 

The No Modify is a perm issue in SL Not a choice of desingers. The script for resize is always no modify, even if you made it yourself, as  you are not going to let customers open up a script and take it or mess with it. so the object comes out as No Modify. Resize works. And then using a pose stand for some finicky items and moving the items around such as a hat or scarf to best suit your tastes and what you wear works as well. 

[Sassy Romano]

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Monti Messmer wrote:

. If others ask or check who made it, the creator get the fame or blame even for the modifications the customer did.

At the end there should be more permissions you can set on your creations. Leave the lenght mod but not the texture and color .... for example.

Monti

---

Both of these are true, especially the last one.  However, the equal and opposite argument is true, if I wear something that doesn't fit and it's the creators original creation, it still looks bad.

Give me modify and it will fit properly and i'll make that creation look good

[Sassy Romano]

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Random Sixpence wrote:

The No Modify is a perm issue in SL Not a choice of desingers. The script for resize is always no modify, even if you made it yourself, as  you are not going to let customers open up a script and take it or mess with it. so the object comes out as No Modify. Resize works. And then using a pose stand for some finicky items and moving the items around such as a hat or scarf to best suit your tastes and what you wear works as well. 

---

The fact that the script is no mod does not make the OBJECT no modify, you know this right?

Resize does NOT work, the word is RE-SIZE.  Customers are different S H A P E S.  It's really quite simple!  Size change is not the same as shape change and again, same answer as I gave to Monti, if I wear something that doesn't fit right because it can't be properly fitted... guess whose name is on the creation?... 

[Alicia Sautereau]

If the demo doesn`t fit and sold copy is no mod, what would you rather have:

the money from sales and people walk around with a perfectly fitted copy?
or shopping at your competitors? 

I know what i did, and that was not spend money in your shop :matte-motes-silly:

[TaraSimone Sixpence]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

The fact that the script is no mod does not make the OBJECT no modify, you know this right?

Resize does NOT work, the word is RE-SIZE.  Customers are different S H A P E S.  It's really quite simple!  Size change is not the same as shape change and again, same answer as I gave to Monti, if I wear something that doesn't fit right because it can't be properly fitted... guess whose name is on the creation?... 

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So like I said. If you want someone to sell you something that is totally Mod and totally Copy, and you need it to fit your shape, and you want to have total control over it from textures to size of prims to sizing to everything else that you can think of, and you need to change that creation - then there are tons of excellent Template Creators in SL. 

And again, demos are a good idea. They are mostly not feasible on clothing sets. When you buy clothing, if you are not sure contact the designer. I am sure that over 80% of them would happily give you somehthing to try out in that collection. Like I said like it after you tried it - buy it. Dont like - delete it. 

But I am sure not making something for a customer to color and texture and enlarge one prim here and one prim there they way the deem fit for their own use. Why make it then? Let the customer make it as their own unique design. If you want that I repeat - tons of great template designers in SL. Then do your own texturing, uploading checking fixing until it is perfect for you. 

I thank you for the spelling correction though. 

[Sassy Romano]

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Random Sixpence wrote:

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Sassy Romano wrote:

The fact that the script is no mod does not make the OBJECT no modify, you know this right?

Resize does NOT work, the word is RE-SIZE.  Customers are different S H A P E S.  It's really quite simple!  Size change is not the same as shape change and again, same answer as I gave to Monti, if I wear something that doesn't fit right because it can't be properly fitted... guess whose name is on the creation?... 

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So like I said. If you want someone to sell you something that is totally Mod and totally Copy, and you need it to fit your shape, and you want to have total control over it from textures to size of prims to sizing to everything else that you can think of, and you need to change that creation - then there are tons of excellent Template Creators in SL. 

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Templates aren't required at all.  Just sensible setting of permissions that let the customer use what they've bought.  It's all too common to find a policy behind the scripted resize sculpts that also says "NO REFUND UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES".  So now not only does the customer have a product that doesn't fit, they have a double slap around the face since they are out of pocket from merchants that hide behind such policy.   How can that project a positive merchant/customer relationship?

There are plenty of creators who offer mod/copy, people will just shop there instead.  Giving business to competitors is always an option.

Also worth always remembering that those studies show that if a person has a poor experience, on average, they will share that experienc with 20 others compared to a fraction that share a positive experience.

However, every creator is entitled to set permissions how they feel appropriate and customers will happily decide whether to patronise or not.  Ill fitting no-mod clothes will forever remain ill fitting.

[LaraLarisson]

Maybe they think their creations are so important that it is down to the customer to change the size of their avatar to suit the size of the clothes?

[Harper Beresford]

Sometimes items have no mod scripts in them, so it's not really the prim itself but another item that is rendering it no mod. Many things have resize scripts. And sometimes people simply don't want you messing with their stuff. Or they are short sighted.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Very few people attempt to change textures on their clothes.  I may tint a prim part once in a while so that it matches better with the clothing layer parts.  Many designers don't take into account that light reflects off a prim differently than it does clothing layers and use the same texture they used on a dress layer on the prim skirt.  I've have a lot of clothes that I've had to do this with and if I couldn't I wouldn't buy or wear them. 

I build in SL.  I've made clothes before and know what you have to do to make decent ones.  I spend as much time on the design and textures I use for my builds as you do.  Yet I don't have the attitude that my creation is so wonderful that I don't want anyone to modify it or that I'm afraid if they modify it it reflects on me. 

People want mod clothing and its about fit not textures.  My avatar has smaller hips than the average one does.  A resizer alone does not work for me because for example a belt has to be shrunk more in one direction that the other or there is a HUGE gap between the belt and my body.  It looks terrible and it reflects on the quality of the designers product as much as it would if I modified it and messed it up.  Yet you prefer this over me making the belt fit my avatar correctly? Or you prefer me to change my shape to fit it?  If so, don't expect me to buy any. 

No mod is just SL fashionista snobbery in my opinion..  Even the most expensive designer of RL clothing can't prevent their creations being altered and dyed.   SL designers who do this only do it because they can or they think there creations are so great that no one dare touch them.  Its their right to think that and sell their clothes no mod, but its our right as consumers not to buy them.  Did you ever think people may like your clothes and buy more of them if they were mod?  No mod prim parts mean no sale to me period.

[Sassy Romano]

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Harper Beresford wrote:

Sometimes items have no mod scripts in them, so it's not really the prim itself but another item that is rendering it no mod. Many things have resize scripts. And sometimes people simply don't want you messing with their stuff. Or they are short sighted.

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Let me say it again, a no mod script does NOT make the item no mod!

What you will see in inventory view is the collapsed permissions, that is, you will see (no modify) listed with the object because of no mod content, there is NOTHING preventing that object from being rezzed and edited in size, IF the creator has checked the modify box while rezzed and then taken it to inventory.

However, the subtle part is that this must be done while rezzed and not while it sits in the creators inventory, otherwise the "slam bit" doesn't get set and the "next owner permission" will be applied when the recipient rezzes it and not until.

See the following wiki article on this but lets be clear on one thing, a no modify script such as a resizer (yuk), does not imply, convert or require that the prims be no modify.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Debug_Permissions

If that's what you meant, that's great, it's just that's not how I interpreted it and i've found far too many creators who don't understand this and hold the belief that once you add a no mod script, the object becomes no mod (wrong) or that you have to set the object to be no mod to match (also wrong).

[Alicia Sautereau]

Just came across a store with some really great items, just everything no mod with a damn resize script

Left the owner a nice message and this thread link, i wonder if he realizes that this costs him more money then he "saves" with no mod, was willing to spend there atleast l$9000 when looking at the prices heh

 

Now just to find a shop with the same items only modable heh

[Jen Shikami]

One that made me laugh recently was a hair designer with no-mod hair. AND no resizer. Seriously? Hair? Yeah no. I have seen my customers do quite lovely things to the wings from Vaengi thanks to them being mod-OK, matching them to outfits, etc. And posted the photos correspondingly to groups on flickr, and got me great exposure. Honestly, I'm surprised more designers don't make tint-friendly items.