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SL TOS Translated!


hamiltonRP
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i agree, the TOS should be translated.

if i have a restaurant with the doors open to the public, it seems like im welcoming everyone, and i put a sign of what i expect of my visitors in a rare obscure language spoken only by a small tribe in a far away island, saying "by entering my restaurant, you agree to sit in the tables that have certain symbols in there, in a certain order, and that you will eat all your food, or you will pay double the price", i can not be sure if my clients read and understood the rules, even if they saw the sign and enter my restaurant.

so, if they break the rules and sit in the table of the wrong symbol, would it be right to be angry and throw them out because they didnt obey the rules? how could them if they didnt understand the weird symbols in the sign?

if i expect that the people who come in my restaurant will behave a certain way, i should make sure that they understand the rules, thats why i decide to have some rules, so everything will come out as i want.

the TOS should be translated with the objective that everything goes fine as Linden Lab expects.

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Having the TOS available in other languages is not going to stop griefers or kids from illegally accessing SL as they are already knowingly breaking the rules.  Even before the teen grid was merged with the adult grid, there were kids on SL illegally.  The fault here lies not with LL, the English only TOS,  or anyone connected with SL but with the parents of these kids.  It is the sole responsibility of the parents to assure that their minor children are accessing age appropriate sites on the internet and that they behave themselves if they do have access to a site.  If they find they can't do that, then their children should not have access to the internet.  LL and SL residents can't be expected to baby-sit.  Although I do feel that if anyone discovers a minor on SL illegally they should report it so that the child's access can be removed.

If you are required to agree to an legal document the responsibility is your's to be sure you understand it before doing so.  If the translations could be done in a completely accurate manner without cost, then that's great.  However anything that means LL has to spend this kind of money on that doesn't provide a real beneift to the ENTIRE community I am against as it will force LL to keep prices up to compensate for it.  To translate the TOS into every native language spoken (which is only fair if you do it for one) would be hugely expensive.  This would be a constant ongoing expense as new people that speak other languages join SL or the TOS is updated.

 

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Storm Clarence wrote:

Que?

 

Best response thus far ;)

Thanks for that :D

OP-Yes TOS needs translated, so does a crap ton of other stuff. But it's not a priority, never has been, never will be. Your rant, your original rant, had nothing at all to do with the actual TOS and everything to do with other issues(ageisms, griefing, and whatnot...speaking of the majority of "kids" in sl, as in actual underage people, probably can not only translate but most likely speak English just fine, them choosing not to because their native tongue is easier, doesn't make them stupid, or something. Just thought I'd toss that in there, for all those kiddies who speak "another language" out there). Issues that you're now throwing a verbal tantrum when anyone dares mention them. Newsflash, you don't get to decide which parts of your posts people respond to. Come across in a weird or unexpected manner, and people will respond in kind.I didn't expect your issue to have anything to do with age, or griefing, or anything like that, when I opened the thread, lol.

Plus, convos derail all the time, and this one is on page 3(so far) and hasn't yet derailed, that's pretty darn special. You simply don't like that people don't agree with you on your crusade, or at least, a portion of it. (btw, spamming people is a form of griefing, are you sure you fully understand the TOS?)

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Hi Tari,

Yes I understand I am not the "boss" or the "leader" of the Fourms,Yes it does become very annoying when they are talking about the othert stuff when I didnt really want them too, I just implied it for a explaple, I do follow the TOS and I understand I have to follow the rules just like everyone else.Just annoyes me when people are "shouting" at me.

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hamiltonRP wrote:

I have created a bug report for this issue- 

Your JIRA is duplicated of another old JIRA: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2594

The translation of TOS has been debated for years in the offcial group of translators. See the penultimate comment of that JIRA (and the link) and you will see where is the issue for a translation.

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Ok so the price comes into alot of things, but here is the proof that LL could hire translaters and could probarly do it without making much more cost for the residents.. here is the Daily Lindex transtions etc..Just One day of Lindex..jpg

This shows that in just on average day they get about 4 Thousand Dollers just with the Lindex.. not counting the rest of the stuff like tiers. I would guess they would get about One Million dollers a month, Yes they would have to pay alot to the workers etc but I would guess theres quite a bit left. 

Thanks,

HamiltonRP

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We are not talking about anything you didn't originally bring up. You broached the subject of under aged people in your original post.

As for money, you do know LL just laid off a ton of people right? So they probably don't have the profit margin you think they do.

My advice is if you feel so headstrong about TOS and Community Standards being translated why don't you do it for them? You take the effort to have it translated into the 100 some different languages used around the world.

And if LL has to do it, that means every other web site in the world has to do it to. All these things you agree to with any software, like adobe or quick time . They are all in English for the most part. I guess they should all have multiple languages too.

Like we have stated, bottom line is they are not required to have it translated and its up to the person agreeing to it to be sure they understand and agree to it. I doubt anyone reads the darn thing anyway until after they get in trouble.

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hamiltonRP wrote:

My aim is to get Linden Lab to translate their TOS because many children (underage) are in Second Life and they cannot read English.. currently.. the TOS is only in English, Linden Lab need to have it translated otherwise more and more children are going to join SL! I will be glad if Linden Lab can translate the TOS becuase not just children carnt read English there are plenty of adults what dont speak English in SL now. 

Before you comment on that the TOS is translated here is the web TOS evidence (please note I choose german for this)

Here is the VIEWER proof of that the TOS is not translated! (not many people read this but people have said I should put this into thought before making this)

 

Thanks,

HamiltonRP


I don't think translating the Terms of Service will prevent children from joining Second Life.

 

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Linden Lab could use Philip's new creation, Coffee & Power, to hire people to translate it.

as he has proven with this project, is that you dont need to pay thousands of dollars for people to do something, as Philip said, he rather hire a poor programmer in brazil that is going to do the same job for a few dollars, than a programmer in the US with certification that would charge thousands to do it.

lets put Coffee & Power to the test.

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As Irene already stated - many residents have asked for a translated version of the ToS for years. Linden Lab has always stated that they can not provide translations for "legal reasons". Actually, legal documents as the ToS can not be simply translated as has been pointed out by others before - they need to be localized. Many regulations within the ToS of an american company are not possible in european countries as they violate local law and would need to be adjusted - which is a pretty complicated process. Best example is Microsoft who had to pay a billion dollar fine to the european union because their terms of service collided with european law and Microsoft saw no need to change that.

Now here comes the issue. It´s legal standard in europe that if you provide a localized website (german, french, spanish...) you must provide  localized ToS in the languages of your website, so that you can not lure customers into business without them knowing what they agree to. Even if you are capable of speaking english the terms of service are considered void by european courts if they aren´t available in your local language. So right now, as a resident of europe (except Great Britain) there are no terms of service. You can do whatever you want and as soon as you get banned for something you can sue Linden Lab. This is how it started a few years ago with Microsoft - let´s hope Linden Lab has some dollars to pay the fine then.

To find out how complicated it is to enforce american terms of service in europe you could check this document: Court case Blizzard ./. Bossland but it´s only available in german and 216 pages...

So to sum it up, it would be nice and reduce risk if the ToS were localized but as Linden Lab has stated before, it´s not going to happen.

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1 meter = 3.2808399 feet 

Oops, that's a different thread.

There is nothing stopping a user from using Google or another translator to get a good general idea of the TOS.

I can fully understand LL's legal concerns with an 'endorsed' translation.

I have seen bilingual contracts that stated should a conflict be found between the original language and the translation that the original language would hold precedent.

However, I can see two linguists disputing each other in a court of law regarding what the translation means or should be, not to mention other accusations that could be levied.  And what would happen if your country had a law that said the translation held precedent in its jurisdiction?

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hamiltonRP wrote:

This shows that in just on average day they get about 4 Thousand Dollers just with the Lindex.. not counting the rest of the stuff like tiers.

 

Why do you think that the largest sale of L$s on that day was by Supply Linden?

On the other hand, that single transaction only accounts for a tiny fraction of the total Lindex volume, and IIRC the Lab skims 3.5% of all LindeX sales (plus a US$0.30 transaction fee collected from the buyer), so their LindeX-related revenues that day would have been about US$13,850, assuming Supply didn't sell any L$s at all.

(None of which actually has anything to do with the cost-effectiveness of translating the ToS.)

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

Linden Lab could use Philip's new creation, Coffee & Power, to hire people to translate it.

as he has proven with this project, is that you dont need to pay thousands of dollars for people to do something, as Philip said, he rather hire a poor programmer in brazil that is going to do the same job for a few dollars, than a programmer in the US with certification that would charge thousands to do it.

lets put Coffee & Power to the test.

I still don't see how translating the Terms of Service would in any way prevent under aged persons from using Second Life.

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Hello,

I have had contact from a Linden and atm there is a translated version (spanish maybe more, but hard to find!) So from now on I will not be replying to this fourm thread.. and as far as the messages I have had in world (my.secondlife.com) I will not be paying any more attention. Thanks again for the support and getting Linden Labs attention and bringing the answers to me. Here is the "Duplicated" Bug report for the translation of the TOS https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2594?.. Yes it will cost, Yes Linden Labs may get sued becuase they might not get all the words right becuase it is a legal document.

Thanks for contributing to this Fourm,

HamiltonRP. 

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hamiltonRP wrote:

Hello,

I have had contact from a Linden and atm there is a translated version (spanish maybe more, but hard to find!) So from now on I will not be replying to this fourm thread.. and as far as the messages I have had in world (my.secondlife.com) I will not be paying any more attention. Thanks again for the support and getting Linden Labs attention and bringing the answers to me. Here is the "
Duplicated" Bug report for the translation of the TOS
.. Yes it will cost, Yes Linden Labs may get sued becuase they might not get all the words right becuase it is a legal document.

Thanks for contributing to this Fourm,

HamiltonRP. 

 

Which Linden has contacted you so we may know?  I thought Irene Muni gave you all that information and links some 12hrs before you posted this...?  I see nothing extra that a Linden may have informed you about or gone out of their way to tell you that you hadn't already been told or could have found out yourself?  

The Spanish version of the ToS is not "hard to find" it's linked in the JIRA and can be easily found by typing Spanish ToS in the Wiki search.  If you had read the JIRA though, and I'm surprised "your" Linden didn't tell you this, that particular Spanish translation is now out of date.  Another factor  LL would have to consider everytime there is the slightest change required in their ToS.

 

 
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forget about children getting in because of lack of translation, forget about griefers in-world because of lack of translation, or that the TOS needs to be modfied to fit the laws of many countries, why cant an American document, without being modified to fit the laws of other countries, be translated into other languages? as simple as that, not to have any power over other countries, just so that people that speak another language can understand it. is still gonna be an American document, with the power as it has now.

Linden Lab can have a disclaimer "this American document is translated into this language for the single purpose that people that speak that language can understand the agreement, in case of any translation conflict, the english version will be taking into account."

like the spanish version, there will be a lot of volunteers that may do it for free, just like a lot of volunteers have helped Linden Lab build this world, not even being paid by Linden Lab, instead they pay Linden Lab to build it.

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I'm reading both the feed and the forum thread on this topic and I'm getting slightly lost.  Can someone accurately and definitively bring us up--to-date?

 

https://my.secondlife.com/linden.lab/posts/4f25864f3a1aa20001002ed0

 

We've got an English ToS, an old Spanish-translation version of a ToS that is now out of date and takes a bit of looking to find and an old jira requesting translations of the ToS, is that right?

And now I'm reading things that seems to suggest that either the situation will remain as is or Linden Lab is looking at the issue again and may indeed add language translations, but it's hard to tell because some of the posts are vague and/or contradictory.

 

Where are we?

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LeeHere Absent wrote:

I'm reading both the feed and the forum thread on this topic and I'm getting slightly lost.  Can someone accurately and definitively bring us up--to-date?

 

 

We've got an English ToS, an old Spanish-translation version of a ToS that is now out of date and takes a bit of looking to find and an old jira requesting translations of the ToS, is that right?

And now I'm reading things that seems to suggest that either the situation will remain as is or Linden Lab is looking at the issue again and may indeed add language translations, but it's hard to tell because some of the posts are vague and/or contradictory.

 

Where are we?

Same place we were at the start, but we at least got some speed up to crash into the same wall from where we started.

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This is bull **bleep** becuase I have now spent about 3 hours in the help island public alot of people who are spanish etc I asked them if they understand the TOS ( I translalted the question) and they said no.. and this person who can nearly speak english said that she cannot be bothered to go though the hassle with the translators.. So this is just **bleep**ed up.. Linden Lab need the TOS translted.. they get enough money they can afford it! I might post a letter to the CEO of Linden Labs soon.

( My prior quest is no more.. my new one is to get the TOS translted end of story.. not on about underaged or griefers anymore, thanks)

HamiltonRP

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So if I'm reading the arc of the feed and forum thread correctly. HamiltonRP started this quest for translated versions of the ToS, received community feedback and then received Linden feedback and then either misinterpreted the Linden feedback and thought the matter was resolved in his favor or interpreted the Linden feedback correctly but decided to give up and announced he was giving up, but then changed his mind and took up the cause anew.  

So HamiltonRP is once again back on the case, or cause, and Linden Lab has once again resolved to NOT provide translated versions of the ToS (stating legal reasons). Is that about right?

https://my.secondlife.com/linden.lab/posts/4f25864f3a1aa20001002ed0

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Or...HamiltonRP figured we only *really* needed a Spanish translation of the ToS (and maybe a few more, dependent upon existing translations perhaps or maybe that was a reasonable compromise) and the Linden said there were some, but hard to find, and HamiltonRP went to Help Island, spoke to Spanish speakers who said they didn't understand the ToS (did he shoot them the link the Linden was referring to?) and decided to take the cause back up again. Is that right?

Will making any future translations easier to find be part of the new cause? Will another jira be opened? What happens if the letter to the CEO is ignored? Then what?

Clearly the Lindens have got the message, is it possible it is time to rewrite the message and add something new and compelling?

This cause has tickled my curiosity.  

https://my.secondlife.com/linden.lab/posts/4f25864f3a1aa20001002ed0

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hamiltonRP wrote:

This is bull **bleep** becuase I have now spent about 3 hours in the help island public alot of people who are spanish etc I asked them if they understand the TOS ( I translalted the question) and they said no.. and this person who can nearly speak english said that she cannot be bothered to go though the hassle with the translators.. So this is just **bleep**ed up.. Linden Lab need the TOS translted.. they get enough money they can afford it! I might post a letter to the CEO of Linden Labs soon.

( My prior quest is no more.. my new one is to get the TOS translted end of story.. not on about underaged or griefers anymore, thanks)

HamiltonRP

What makes you think that most of the English speakers understand the TOS either, much less even bother to read it?

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Perrie Juran wrote:


hamiltonRP wrote:

This is bull **bleep** becuase I have now spent about 3 hours in the help island public alot of people who are spanish etc I asked them if they understand the TOS ( I translalted the question) and they said no.. and this person who can nearly speak english said that she cannot be bothered to go though the hassle with the translators.. So this is just **bleep**ed up.. Linden Lab need the TOS translted.. they get enough money they can afford it! I might post a letter to the CEO of Linden Labs soon.

( My prior quest is no more.. my new one is to get the TOS translted end of story.. not on about underaged or griefers anymore, thanks)

HamiltonRP

What makes you think that most of the English speakers understand the TOS either, much less even bother to read it?

We're supposed to read it?

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