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jamesether

How tall are you?

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Even if you do, which I genuinely doubt, grabbing your av on the back isn't the way to navigate in a room. It's only a way to see.

You can drop the snarky, ad-hominem attitude anytime.  But yes, it's possible to navigate with WSAD and grabbing your av on the back

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I respond to you according to the way posted earlier in the thread - not very nicely.

How do you move by grabbing the av on the back?

Even if you can move, it's no way to work thing in SL unless you really want to. The normal way of moving is to press cursor keys. Maybe you mean to press WSAD keys and swing your av's view around at the same time. It a bit contrived, isn't it? Square pegs and round holes? If it can be done that way in a 12'x12' furnished living room, that's fine, but it's not what people want to have to do, so much bigger rooms are necessarily the norm.

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I don't care how tall people make their avatar if only they knew that they were much taller then is realistic.

If we were given realistic avatars with rl scale to start with and knew that when we started changing them that they were becoming a lot taller, maybe there would be fewer giants around.

You say scale doesn't matter because we can see if something is right or not, we make buildings around our avatars, sort of guessing how tall or big stuff has to be.

But if we all had the same (basic) scale we could use the RL measurements to make exact copies, doors, cars, furniture and animations that would fit EVERYONE, except those that decide to be much taller or shorter.

There could be a whole seperate market for giants and tinies (there already is for the latter if I'm not mistaken.

We do not have a general accepted middle scale, well we do but it is ignored by many, mostly because LL gives us giant avatars to begin with and sticks the camera in a way that makes it hard to navigate anywhere.

Personally I don't like seeing every shop being HUGE, every house being HUGE, SL is HUGE.

I even felt that way when I was still a large avatar myself, all the tall ceilings, ballroom sized shops.

If you are realistically scaled, it is hard to buy a car because those are often made for giants, to me that is odd.

It would be good if we had a rl based or at least GENERAL type of measurement in SL so we could all fit the same furniture, all fit the animations, etc.

Right now, even if you don't mind being a giant, you sort of have to guesstimate and often still tweak stuff you buy to fit and match.

As for the small room, it all takes some getting used to I guess but yes, we've been using rl scale houses without any problems, fully furnitured.

But remember that our very very small hotel rooms are supposed to be very small.

Even in RL only a bed, table and chair would fit in, nothing more.

This is a hotel in the poor side of town, somewhere you stay for not too long.

Some of the rooms there are as big as just the bathroom in our fancy Hotel Adlon.

A more common working class apartment we have has two rooms, measuring 5 by 5 meters each, walls a little under 4 meters tall.

 

Oddly enough I grew up in a huge Edwardian mansion in RL with huge rooms ;)

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I respond to you according to the way posted earlier in the thread - not very nicely.

How do you move by grabbing the av on the back?

Even if you can move, it's no way to work thing in SL unless you really want to. The normal way of moving is to press cursor keys. Maybe you mean to press WSAD keys and swing your av's view around at the same time. It a bit contrived, isn't it? Square pegs and round holes? If it can be done that way in a 12'x12' furnished living room, that's fine, but it's not what people want to have to do, so much bigger rooms are necessarily the norm.

You technically cannot move by grabbing your avatar on the back. A combination of keypress and av-steering is required. It's my normal method of moving in SL, and the one I recommend to anyone finding accurate movement difficult.

First you left click anywhere on your avatar's back (as long as it isn't an object with a touch-activated feature). This allows you both to turn your avatar on the spot, and to alter your camera angle up and down with respect to your av. Both are useful for looking around, but even more so for the next step... press the W or forward arrow key to move forward. As long as you remain left-clicked on your av, you can continue to steer it (and alter camera angle) as you move. Need to move particulary carefully? Push the mouse forward until you get an almost top-down view of your av. Look further ahead? Draw the mouse back.

It might sound unnatural when described, but I found it almost completely instinctive to pilot my av this way, and now rarely use any other method. I've taken part in several activities where fast, assured, accurate movement is necessary and this is incredibly useful. It closely mimics the way the mouse and keyboard are used in First Person Shooters: mouse for tilt/pan, and movement in the direction you are looking.

The acid test (for you, at least) would be: can you navigate a 4m x 4m furnished room this way. For me, the answer is yes, with a but. It's neither comfortable nor easy, even with a human-sized av. I still prefer more open spaces, because I'm used to camming freely around without the hassle of sliding my cam through a wall. I build much smaller than average for SL, but larger than RL.

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Kelli May wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

I respond to you according to the way posted earlier in the thread - not very nicely.

How do you move by grabbing the av on the back?

Even if you can move, it's no way to work thing in SL unless you really want to. The normal way of moving is to press cursor keys. Maybe you mean to press WSAD keys and swing your av's view around at the same time. It a bit contrived, isn't it? Square pegs and round holes? If it can be done that way in a 12'x12' furnished living room, that's fine, but it's not what people want to have to do, so much bigger rooms are necessarily the norm.

You technically cannot move by grabbing your avatar on the back. A combination of keypress and av-steering is required. It's my normal method of moving in SL, and the one I recommend to anyone finding accurate movement difficult.

First you left click anywhere on your avatar's back (as long as it isn't an object with a touch-activated feature). This allows you both to turn your avatar on the spot, and to alter your camera angle up and down with respect to your av. Both are useful for looking around, but even more so for the next step... press the W or forward arrow key to move forward. As long as you remain left-clicked on your av, you can continue to steer it (and alter camera angle) as you move. Need to move particulary carefully? Push the mouse forward until you get an almost top-down view of your av. Look further ahead? Draw the mouse back.

It might sound unnatural when described, but
 I found it almost completely instinctive to pilot my av this way, and now rarely use any other method. I've taken part in several activities where fast, assured, accurate movement is necessary and this is incredibly useful. It closely mimics the way the mouse and keyboard are used in First Person Shooters: mouse for tilt/pan, and movement in the direction you are looking.

The acid test (for you, at least) would be: can you navigate a 4m x 4m furnished room this way. For me, the answer is yes, with a but. It's neither comfortable nor easy, even with a human-sized av. I still prefer more open spaces, because I'm used to camming freely around without the hassle of sliding my cam through a wall. I build much smaller than average for SL, but larger than RL.

Thank you, that was the thrust at what I was getting at.  In close quarters, I tend to zoom in a bit with the mouse wheel for finer directional control.  I don't get the notion that this is a square peg in a round hole at all, that outright dismissal is more indicative of refusing to listen to reason.

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I just have my camera right behind me, looking slightly over my head straight ahead and just use the 4 arrow keys to move about.

No grabbing, no alphabetic keys needed.

Very easy.

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Kelli May wrote:

It might sound unnatural when described, but
 I found it almost completely instinctive to pilot my av this way, and now rarely use any other method. I've taken part in several activities where fast, assured, accurate movement is necessary and this is incredibly useful. It closely mimics the way the mouse and keyboard are used in First Person Shooters: mouse for tilt/pan, and movement in the direction you are looking.

 This same method is used in third person games as well, it is in fact the normal way of doing movement & camera, which is the reason sl supports it. Phil's assertion that [only] the cursor keys are the normal way is an archaic belief that dates back over 20 years, no modern games actually do things that way because it doesn't work in a 3d environment.

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

 This same method is used in third person games as well, it is in fact the normal way of doing movement & camera, which is the reason sl supports it. Phil's assertion that [only] the cursor keys are the normal way is an archaic belief that dates back over 20 years, no modern games actually do things that way because it doesn't work in a 3d environment.

The first game that made WSAD+mouse movement the default (instead of purely keyboard movement by default) was id Software's 1996 release of Quake. So more like over 15 years.

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Baloo Uriza wrote:


leliel Mirihi wrote:

 This same method is used in third person games as well, it is in fact the normal way of doing movement & camera, which is the reason sl supports it. Phil's assertion that [only] the cursor keys are the normal way is an archaic belief that dates back over 20 years, no modern games actually do things that way because it doesn't work in a 3d environment.

The first game that made WSAD+mouse movement the default (instead of purely keyboard movement by default) was id Software's 1996 release of Quake. So more like over 15 years.

WASD + mouse look wasn't actually the default in Quake, but everyone quickly enabled it since it gave you such an overwhelming advantage. There were plenty of other games that experimented with various forms of mouse look before Quake tho.

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

 This same method is used in third person games as well, it is in fact the normal way of doing movement & camera, which is the reason sl supports it.
Phil's assertion that [only] the cursor keys are the normal way
is an archaic belief that dates back over 20 years, no modern games actually do things that way because it doesn't work in a 3d environment.

You added a word (in square brackets) that I didn't use, and converted what I said into something that I didn't say. Square brackets are used like that for something quite different. If your point needs you to change what someone else said, then perhaps you don't have a point at all.

Curser keys (or the WASD keys) are the standard method of moving in SL.

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Jo Yardley wrote:

As for the small room, it all takes some getting used to I guess but yes, we've been using rl scale houses without any problems, fully furnitured.

A more common working class apartment we have has two rooms, measuring 5 by 5 meters each, walls a little under 4 meters tall.

That's my point, Jo. When you say you use RL-size houses, I don't trhink you do use typical rl-size houses. I think you choose very large, or huge, RL-sized houses, which makes a huge difference to the discussion. Even your "more common working class apartment" (5x5m) is larger than a real life typical RL living room or bedroom, and 4m high is huge compared to typical RL rooms. I don't think you use typical RL-sizes at all for your accommodation.

You may say that you choose larger than typical life sizes so that you can fit RL size furniture and avs in, but that's quite different to the impression you've been giving in your posts - that RL sizes all round do work in SL. I accepted ages ago that some RL sizes will work just fine, but those are larger than typical RL sizes, and those are what you use. 5x5m is over 16' in each direction.

I've actually tried in a 12'x12' room (typical RL size), with my cam at my eyes and my height at 6'1" and, whilst I can move in it without the cam going outside, I can't see properly in it, I can't see very much of the bed in it, I can't see the bottom of the walls in it, so I don't know where my feet are with respect to the walls or anything else. I put an RL bed sized block in it, and it's just ridiculous. There's no way in the world that SL users in general would accept living rooms and bedrooms like that. As for 3m x 2m room for rent, well.... you can't even change in it and see what you look like in any way that's reasonably acceptable.

I'm sorry. I did test it all and, whilst I appreciate that a few people have a preference for it, for some strange reason that's beyond my imagination, SL people in general would never accept homes like that. They need and want much more floor space so they can see their avs, and see where they are walking, than RL homes typically have. After that, some may accept RL-sized furniture if they get used to it not filling the room like RL funiture does, in which case, avs could be RL sizes too. But the floor space is essential. You can't have all three as typical RL sizes.

It's all academic anyway because SL works perfectly well with the sizes that are generally used, and there isn't a good reason at all why things should be generally RL sizes. Nobody has stated one, anyway. I'll say again that the SL world is not the RL world, and that's it.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


leliel Mirihi wrote:

 This same method is used in third person games as well, it is in fact the normal way of doing movement & camera, which is the reason sl supports it.
Phil's assertion that [only] the cursor keys are the normal way
is an archaic belief that dates back over 20 years, no modern games actually do things that way because it doesn't work in a 3d environment.

You added a word (in square brackets) that I didn't use, and converted what I said into something that I didn't say. Square brackets are used like that for something quite different. If your point needs you to change what someone else said, then perhaps you don't have a point at all.

Curser keys (or the WASD keys) are the standard method of moving in SL.

Curser keys alone don't give you the fine grained control you need to maneuver in a complex 3d environment. Just try it yourself in any modern game and see how long you live.

You may not have used the word but it's implicit in your entire argument that you mean only the curser keys and not the curser keys plus a mouse which is what you're arguing against. If there is any other way to interpret what you're saying please enlighten me.

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You are mistaken, Leliel. It wasn't implicit at all. I have been well aware of the WASD+mouse method - I've even used it. So, as I said, making a point by changing what somebody wrote into something that they neither wrote nor implied, must mean that you don't have a point to make at all.

Btw, SL isn't a game, so 'seeing how long I live in a game' doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with SL and this discussion.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

You are mistaken, Leliel. It wasn't implicit at all. I have been well aware of the WASD+mouse method - I've even used it. So, as I said, making a point by changing what somebody wrote into something that they neither wrote nor implied, must mean that you don't a point to make at all.

I'm sorry, but that's the way I understood you and still do, thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt and not just accusing me from the start. And I'm pretty shure you already knew about mouse look, at the very least because you were replying to some one that had just brought it up.

What is your point exactly? I read it as only the curser keys are the normal way, you claim that's not your point but have yet to provide a more thorough explanation. So are you just going to continue to tell me I have no point or are you going to tell me what your point is?


Btw, SL isn't a game, so 'seeing how long I live in a game' doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with SL and this discussion.

BTW, SL isn't a game, so telling people they need a fast GPU with up to date drivers doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with it. The discussion is about moving around in 3d environments, I'd say 3d games are a valid comparison. If you don't like the "how long I live" part then I'll just bring up games with 3d puzzles like Portal and Amnesia.

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My point is that you should not quote somebody, add something to the quote that they neither wrote, meant, nor implied, and then try to make a point based on that.

Whether or not you still wrongly think that only the cursor keys can be used to move around in my opinion, is irrelevant. You are wrong about it. I just told you that I've used the WASD+mouse (long before this thread, incidentally), so why you want to hold on to a wrong belief is puzzling, to say the least.

However, I do say, and have said, that the normal way that people move around in SL is by using the cursor keys.


leliel Mirihi wrote:

BTW, SL isn't a game
, so telling people they need a fast GPU with up to date drivers doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with it.
The discussion is about moving around in 3d environments
, I'd say 3d games are a valid comparison.
If you don't like the "how long I live" part then I'll just bring up games with 3d puzzles like Portal and Amnesia.

I said that. You even quoted it.

The discussion is not about moving around in 3D environments, and 3D games are not a valid comparison. It is specifically about navigating reasonably well inside a very small 3D space, such as a 12'x12' furnished living room. Perhaps you haven't read the thread and you jumped to the wrong conclusion by only reading the last bits. The latest posts took it off at a tangent by discussing 3D games, and which method of movement is best for them, but this discussion has nothing to do with any of that, other than they are both 3D environments.

There's no need to bring up 3D puzzles. They also have nothing to do with this discussion, which, as I said, is about navigating in a very small fully furnished room. Whether it can be done or not doesn't even come into it. Of course it can be done - by blundering into and over things - but it's not suitable for homes in SL. Space is needed.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

Curser keys (or the WASD keys) are the standard method of moving in SL.

No! lol

From day 1 in SL (years ago) I used a combination of Mouse+Keyboard to move, that is the standard in other games too. I'm not talking of mouselook, thats another option I use in special cases only.

I really wondered seeing so many with that clumsy movement you get when playing keyboard only. Seems that this feature is obviously not known that well.

I always know when i teleport to a place with an invisible prim at the landing point (spam and spy tool) because i fail to connect the mouse steering to the avatar then.
:)

It is no problem to move in a furnished 4x4 room with a mouse/keyboard combo -  IF sculpties are not bigger than they look (need phantom setting then) AND you have a decent framerate AND the sim is running well.

But it's absolutely no fun so why bother with that?

A moving camera is never the same than the way you see in RL so the environments must not be the same than RL. Game designers know that and you can see that in all games. In SL everyone is a designer.

Well - your imagination so do it - but SL does not allow to make a RL environment that is fun so I will always make SL environments and no RL environments in SL.
:)

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You said it yourself, Nova:- "I really wondered seeing so many with that clumsy movement you get when playing keyboard only. Seems that this feature is obviously not known that well." That makes the cursor keys the normal way that people move in SL ;)


Nova Convair wrote:

It is no problem to move in a furnished 4x4 room with a mouse/keyboard combo -  IF sculpties are not bigger than they look (need phantom setting then) AND you have a decent framerate AND the sim is running well.

But it's absolutely no fun so why bother with that?


Moving isn't a problem. I never said it was. It's seeing and navigating in it that the problem, which, as you said, "is no fun, so why bother with that?"

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Phil Deakins wrote:

My point is that you should
not
quote somebody, add something to the quote that they neither wrote, meant, nor implied, and then try to make a point based on that.

That's not the point I was talking about and you know it. Thanks for dodging the question. I'll back out now since there's obviously no point in discussing with you.


Phil Deakins wrote:

Whether or not you still wrongly think that only the cursor keys can be used to move around in my opinion, is irrelevant. You are wrong about it. I just told you that I've used the WASD+mouse (long before this thread, incidentally), so why you want to hold on to a wrong belief is puzzling, to say the least.

WTF are you even talking about then? How can I admit I'm wrong when you won't tell me what you actually ment?

 

Note: just because I disagree with you about this doesn't mean I hate you for life.

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

WTF are you even talking about then? How can I admit I'm wrong when you won't tell me what you actually ment?

You made the mistake of thinking that this discussion was about the methods of moving around in a 3D environment, and you posted as though it were, but it wasn't about that at all. You compounded the mistake by adding to what I'd written and making a point based on that addition.

 

 


Note: just because I disagree with you about this doesn't mean I hate you for life.

Me neither. I won't even remember much about it in a day or three :)

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I'll break my word and come back for one post because I think I see where part of this misunderstanding came from.

 


Phil Deakins wrote:

I have a question for too? Jo said she has 3x2m hotel rooms to rent. Do 
you
 think it's possible for an rl-sized avatar to
navigate
well enough in such a furnished room?



Phil Deakins wrote:

Even if you do, which I genuinely doubt, grabbing your av on the back isn't the way to
navigate
in a room. It's only a way to see.



Phil Deakins wrote:

How do you
move
by grabbing the av on the back?

Even if you can
move
, it's no way to work thing in SL unless you really want to. The normal way of
moving
is to press cursor keys.


Moving and navigating aren't the same thing. How did it change from one to the other so quickly? I thought you meant navigate because that's the word you used in your early posts (admittedly not the word I used in my replies), but I see now that you quickly changed it to move. You're right that you can't move with the mouse (aside from single or double click to move, which means you're wrong), but have a look at one of the meanings of navigate.

"to ascertain or plot and control the course or position of"

One of the ways to ascertain or plot a course is to look around which you can most easily do with the mouse.

You say this discussion is not about the methods of moving (nee navigating) around yet what's this right here?


Phil Deakins wrote:

Even if you can move, it's no way to work thing in SL unless you really want to. The normal way of moving is to press cursor keys. Maybe you mean to press WSAD keys and swing your av's view around at the same time. It a bit contrived, isn't it?


That shure looks to me like you're saying one method is better than the other. Not that it really matters tho, topics change over time. The title of this tread is "How tall are you?", not "Should buildings in sl be rl size" or "Can you navigate in a 12' by 12' room".

 

I won't bother asking you to clarify what you truly mean this time. And I'm done.

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You really should have read the whole thread, leliel. You got it completely wrong. The discussion was not about moving/navigating within SL. It was about moving/navigating with a tiny space - specifically within a 12'x12' furnished living room or bedroom. I'm sorry that I didn't add "within a 12'x12' furnished living room or bedroom" each time, but it really wasn't necessary because those who were involved knew what the discussion was about. Those who didn't read it, didn't know and you were one of those.

I'm not going to waste time by writing detailed answers to your questions because you can answer them for yourself by simply reading the thread and getting the gist of the discussion. That's what you should have done in the first place instead of going off on a tangent.

I don't really find fault. You read a post out of context, thought it was about something you knew about (moving is 3D environments) and posted accordingly. It was a mistake, that's all.

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leliel Mirihi wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

Even if you can move, it's no way to work thing in SL unless you really want to. The normal way of moving is to press cursor keys. Maybe you mean to press WSAD keys and swing your av's view around at the same time. It a bit contrived, isn't it?


That shure looks to me like you're saying one method is better than the other. Not that it really matters tho, topics change over time. The title of this tread is "How tall are you?", not "Should buildings in sl be rl size" or "Can you navigate in a 12' by 12' room".

Look. There is nothing in what you quoted of mine that suggests that one method is "better" than the other. One methods is much more normal in SL than the other but that's quite a different thing. If you'd bothered to read the thread instead of jumping in without knowing what is was about, you would have realised that using the WASD+mouse method of navigation in a 12'x12' furnished room is "a bit contrived", which is what I said. The intentional implication was that much more space is needed to move around reasonably well in such a small furnished room in a home.

People who were in the discussion, including the one who I replied to (the part of mine that you quoted) understood. Remember that, in a discussion, you don't usually need to rewrite what's gone before because the people in it know what's gone before - just like you would have known if you'd the thread.

You made a mistake that's all - forget it.

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Since I entered SL I have tweaked my avatar to my own RL characteristics...after all, it is a version of myself!   

 

BTW....5 feet tall. No less, no more. Just right.

And yes,

almost everyone else towers next to me....LOL

 

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