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Lydia Craig

Time to fix this mess

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Since this morning's work crashes have been constant, logins take hours and often end unexpectedly, inventories fail to load, lag has increased alarmingly, and appears to be accompanied by a massive memory leak that is affecting not just inventory but the entire database.  At this point it may be time to give up trying to fix the mess piecemeal, and buy a new database robust enough to handle the demands of Second Life and a  Database Manager with the experience and knowledge to keep the thing going.  Otherwise with a few more days like today SL may become history.

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I am hardly new, and have been on for nearly 6 year, and have witnessed a steady erosion of both services and support  in SL.  Until today things were working relatively well recently, but today rivaled and probably topped the worst performance I have yet seen in SL, and to add insult to injury I noticed just now that we had a "billing issure" last night.  This is a clear sign on general data base failing when coupled with the other problems of yesterday, and no amount of distraction from LL driven nay sayers can hide this fact.  Hopefully, they can fix some of these issues and this thing will last awhile longer, but in the end the only practical solution is a new database, and it is debatable if is even willing or capable of taking that step.Those of you who do not like to hear this get used to it because things are getting worse and most likely will continue to do so until LL either fixes this problem or destroys SL completely.

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Lydia Craig wrote:

Since this morning's work crashes have been constant, logins take hours and often end unexpectedly, inventories fail to load, lag has increased alarmingly, and appears to be accompanied by a massive memory leak that is affecting not just inventory but the entire database.

 I've not noticed any particular problems with crashes, logins or my inventory, and neither have I seen any complaints in various groups about people having unusual difficulties.   What leads you to the conclusion it's a widespread issue,  and why do you say it's caused by the database rather than any of the other many possible culprits?   

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Lydia Craig wrote:

 ...but in the end the only practical solution is a new database, and it is debatable if is even willing or capable of taking that step.Those of you who do not like to hear this get used to it...

I'm relatively new to SL (< 6 mos.) so I don't know how bad it's been in the past. All I know is that performance is pretty crappy now. I don't think that LL execs care. They had an innovative idea a decade ago, it's made $$ for them which is all they care about, and now aren't willing to spend any $$ to improve performance or bring the grid up to modern standards. The way things stand, LL deserves to go out of business.

On the other hand I like SL. Despite all its faults and frustrations, SL is still fun. I would like to see SL survive but not under the control of LL. LL has demonstrated their failure to maintain & improve SL as its users & players & residents deserve.

I agree that an entirely new approach to grid archetecture is needed, one that will allow a (virtually) unlimited number of avatars per sim. A new approach to building stuff that isn't based on the prim is needed. SL needs to be run as a member-owned non-profit rather than by a for profit corporation. SL needs to be based outside the US where restrictive US law doesn't apply. "Land" ownership needs to be abolished along with the $L. A minimal membership fee needs to be imposed on all players, just sufficient to cover expenses and not intended to enrich corporate execs & shareholders. Class distinctions between paying members & "freeloaders" need to be abolished. Decisions need to be made on the basis of resident consensus, not imposed dictatorially by a bunch of unaccountable corporate parasites.

Unless changes such as these, & others that more experienced players can think of, can be implemented, I think that SL will probably deservedly die out. IT & the internet have moved on in the past decade. LL hasn't. Not much anyway. Maybe once LL has driven SL into the ground, a group of dedicated SL lovers can bring back a new & improved version of SL, encorporating modern technology, and out from under the thumb of a sociopathic corporation. So mote it be!

Jeanne

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-------------------------------

"...This is a clear sign on general data base failing when coupled with the other problems of yesterday, and no amount of distraction from LL driven nay sayers can hide this fact.  Hopefully, they can fix some of these issues and this thing will last awhile longer, but in the end the only practical solution is a new database, and it is debatable if is even willing or capable of taking that step.Those of you who do not like to hear this get used to it because things are getting worse and most likely will continue to do so until LL either fixes this problem or destroys SL completely."

------------------------------

Since you've been in SL for 6 years (same as me) then you obviously have not been paying much attention to what the SL platform does, how it handles content, presence, inventories, and the whole grid.  It's not just a single data base.....it's a whole host of different data bases handling many different assets.  It's graphics that are less than optimal provided by residents that everyone can see, use, and interact with.  You don't just get a "new database"...........you invent that "new database". 

 

Perhaps you have the skills to do that.  I mean, afterall, you've been here for as long as I have so you should certainly know what needs to be done and how to do it............or, at least, that's what I'm getting from you.  That's why I said you were new.  You sure are acting like it.   When I was new I thought should be easy too..........then I started learning what what happening in the SL platform and how people like me contribute to the "problems".  Then a reaslized that the design of SL is way more complicated than just some datatbase.  Then, I started seeing what I thought as simple issues that could be fixed by some coder just digging a little deeper in a completely different light.  When you are re-inventing the wheel you can't just get a "new database".  If it were that simple there would be dozens of "Second Lifes" all over the Internet..........and that just is the case now is it?  Ever wonder why?  :)

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"It's not just a single data base.....it's a whole host of different data bases handling many different assets."

There ya go! A cobbled together mess, in other words. This is why no amount of tinkering ever is going to "fix" SL. Doing so will require a fundamental rethink of platform archetecture which LL simply has no incentive to undertake. Hence, SL will continue to wobble along until people get sick of the poorly designed & overly complicated interface, and SL dies... OR... people who love SL wrest it from the clutches of a corporation with no pride or vision, and redesign it coherently.

"That's why I said you were new.  You sure are acting like it."

Heaven forbid that anyone new should ever come along, pointing out that the emperor has no clothes. All the geezers with vested interests in SL's toy economy who dominate these fora, might get their panties in a bunch if anyone ever rocked the boat by pointing out how dysfunctional LL has become and how SL could be made so much better. LOL

Jeanne

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JeanneAnne wrote:

 people who love SL wrest it from the clutches of a corporation with no pride or vision, and redesign it coherently.

How, exactly, do you suggest people might do that?   SL belongs to Linden Lab, and I don't see how we might go about changing that state of affairs.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

 people who love SL wrest it from the clutches of a corporation with no pride or vision, and redesign it coherently.

How, exactly, do you suggest people might do that?   SL belongs to Linden Lab, and I don't see how we might go about changing that state of affairs.

Good question Innula!

Maybe we just have to wait for LL to kill off SL through incompetence & neglect, then start afresh with a platform loosely patterned after LL's initial grid archetecture but with modern refinements & improvements.

Maybe LL will branch out into new enterprises, grow tired of SL and simply give it to a non-profit consortium of users, as a tax writeoff.

Maybe we have to force the transition. How do we do that? Tier strike! Simply refuse to rent server space from the corporation until demands are met. LL will be forced to either concede to our demands or go bankrupt.

I'm not sure how best to bring about these needed changes. I'm apolitical. I only seek to foment interest in these ideas in others with both the political & technical savvy to pull off this coup. If I didn't love SL & the friends I've made there, I wouldn't care.

Jeanne

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

 people who love SL wrest it from the clutches of a corporation with no pride or vision, and redesign it coherently.

How, exactly, do you suggest people might do that?   SL belongs to Linden Lab, and I don't see how we might go about changing that state of affairs.

Good question Innula!

Maybe we just have to wait for LL to kill off SL through incompetence & neglect, then start afresh with a platform loosely patterned after LL's initial grid archetecture but with modern refinements & improvements.

There are already other grids that are based on SL technology that are run by some not for profit and some for profit.

Some have improvements over LL already but they're not competing with LL.  Everything you've asked for is being done already yet you're on Second Life.  Ask yourself why you're here and not enjoying all that you've asked for in the earlier message, since that already exists elsewhere.

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Sassy Romano wrote:

There are already other grids that are based on SL technology that are run by some not for profit and some for profit.

Some have improvements over LL already but they're not competing with LL.  Everything you've asked for is being done already yet you're on Second Life.  Ask yourself why you're here and not enjoying all that you've asked for in the earlier message, since that already exists elsewhere.

Cool, Sassy... Thanks!

Ok, I asked myself why im here & not elsewhere, and this is what myself told me:

I didn't even know about SL until back in August. When I googled "virtual world" or something like that, SL was what came up. So im here cuz this is what I found & what i know about. Also, at this point, I now have friends in SL. Unless they migrate with me, im kinda stuck w/ SL if i want to keep my friends...

I won't ask you to identify any of the other grids - LL might ban you if you did. Wouldn't put it past em. But i will look for alternative virtual worlds. Thanks for the heads up!

Jeanne

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Well said.....and well put to one of the tiresome - but oh so predictable - Shill Queens on here.....quite made my day reading you put her to the sword. :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

However, it is no chance of fate that such shills and apologists swarm in these forums, and as you point out they blindly ignore the glaring inadequacies and appalling customer relations of LL  because that is what they are precisely here to do.

The sad thing is, LL has actually made a half hearted attempt to improve their viewer. It now shows promise.  However, I think it is too little too late, and had we not had astounding incompetence in the conception and introduction of viewer2, not to mention the notorious deafness that LL staff - by and large - exhibit to their customers we would never have had that debacle of a viewer to start with.

Serious investment is needed by LL in servers and database, as the OP shrewdly nailed,  but LL is ruled by their beancounters who are out to squeeze every last $L out of the place, and the customers come last by some margin.

Bumble has not been able to reverse this suicidal way to run a company. Yet. :o)

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Want to know how "invested" my financial interests are in SL?  Exactly 0 (zero).  Not a single linden has ever been cashed out by me (including any alt I might have).  Want to know how many "creations" I've "invested" my time and efforts to and distributed to other residents in SL?  Approximately 200......free, absolutely free with no strings attached.

 

I have no "vested" interest in Second Life or Linden Lab.  I've actually paid for a premium membership for all but one month of my "residency" in SL.......that would be since October 5, 2005 (or just over 73 months.....and that's not counting the other premium account I paid for over 4 years before downgrading that account to basic).  LL's failure would save me money......not cost me money.

 

Think about that "cobbled together database" statement.  Do some research on databases and how you can combine more than one into a single database.  See how "easy" it would be.........or even if it's possible.  Think of assets and what those assets are (landmarks, inventory, avatar, objects, textures, scripts, animations) and how they could be placed in a single database that would not buckle under the conflicting types of data being stored in some organized mannor..........and the data can be updated nearly constantly.  Like I said, if it were easy someone (one of the SL cloned Open Sim project grids, for instance) would have figured it out and blown SL off the Internet.......that hasn't even come close to happening has it?  That, alone, should tell you something.......unless you actually think all those grids are in cahoots with LL and sharing the gold.

 

People like you have been bitching about LL for ever (I was one of those for a while back in 2006).  Those same people predict the end of SL if LL doesn't "get their act together".  SL has grown since then and continues to grow.......it's niave to say such things without some indication that what you are saying has a trace of truth to it.  After your claim of 6 years in SL it really makes you look rather silly to continue such tripe.  The side effect that BS like this is that real new people tend to get their "facts" just a crooked as yours............you make it harder for them to understand what SL is and how they can better enjoy SL.  Poison the water so to speak.  In a small way that contributes to the retention problem for residents to SL........the learning curve is large enough as it is without telling the new people that "it's hopeless, move on".

 

One of two things will happen with SL.  LL will advance the platform to the point of more perfect for most users.  Or LL will fail to do that before someone else comes along and does it first (taking LL and SL down by a knock out blow).  LL is making progress on the former and, you can bet your next pay check, that there are more just a few out there trying to get to the goal first.  As long as LL is making progress they stay ahead of the competition simply because LL has the expertise the others don't..........LL invented the platform and the others have to work with LL's old copies.  If you understand the basics of what's happening instead of bitching about something you are clueless about, your SL experience can be much much happier.

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So you're being ripped off?

 

Only morons continue to get ripped off once they find out they're being ripped off.  Why are you continuing to let LL rip you off?

 

From the "predictable shill Queen"  :)

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For those that don't keep up with the happening in SL and think the Lindens don't care and aren't doing anything... read through this series of articles:

SL Server Related - Started in Oct 2010 - 51 articles. 

SL Script Related - Started in Feb 2011 - 25 articles.

Viewer Reviews and Updates - Started in Jul 2009 - 312 articles

I find it amazing that people come into vent in front of other residents and think they will be believed. I thought only politicians were that thick.

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Has LL started turning off some of the old Viewer 1 server side support?  When they do, that will affect users of V1-based viewers differently than V2/3-based viewers. 

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And those V-1 based users have had how long to prepare for that?  How many games that supported 3 year old systems a year or so ago still support those 3 year old systems?  You want the bells and whistles that new technology brings but you want it to work on old technology........that just doesn't happen and you know it.  But it is something to bitch abour.  :)

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11 hours can not load a notecard a script I ve been abile to load two pictures all day .. Can someone please explain whats going on with the asset servers 

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I've had no problems like that, and there haven't been any complaints in any of the scripting groups to which I belong that would make me think it's a general issue. 

Normally when I can't upload stuff, logging out and rebooting my cable modem fixes it.   Have you tried that?

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Q, MY SL is all busted up, lagging blah.

 

A, as of ball park jan 2012, try turning off your voice over IP.

At current updated drivers, with the latest patch release my much older viewer 2, became unplayable. when it was smooth around xmas. noteing the lag and the latest patch sitting there i figured i should grab it. Still unplayable. When investigating further found Vivox was going stupid, and also effecting computer proformance out side of SL only when SL was running. Turned it off. Became instantly smooth again... YAYA new feature FREE lag button. It might be my gigbyte board, my realtek ob sound card, just having compatability issues. With what ever has occured with the vivox portion of SL. But holy hell vivox in SL is not liking my system. turn it on isntant unplayable 2 fps no textures load, full chop.

me>preferances>sound media> 5th odd slider down voice over IP, at the end of it is a mute speaker and a turn off check box.

 

might not help everyone but helped me

 

this seams to be the problem, for me that is

Voice Server Version: Vivox Built with MSVC version 1600

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Sassy Romano wrote:

There are already other grids that are based on SL technology that are run by some not for profit and some for profit.

Some have improvements over LL already but they're not competing with LL.  Everything you've asked for is being done already yet you're on Second Life.  Ask yourself why you're here and not enjoying all that you've asked for in the earlier message, since that already exists elsewhere.

Cool, Sassy... Thanks!

Ok, I asked myself why im here & not elsewhere, and this is what myself told me:

I didn't even know about SL until back in August. When I googled "virtual world" or something like that, SL was what came up. So im here cuz this is what I found & what i know about. Also, at this point, I now have friends in SL. Unless they migrate with me, im kinda stuck w/ SL if i want to keep my friends...

I won't ask you to identify any of the other grids - LL might ban you if you did. Wouldn't put it past em. But i
will
look for alternative virtual worlds. Thanks for the heads up!

Jeanne

You've identified the issue, LL is the incumbent but you don't have to look very hard.  In Firestorm viewer for example,

preferences, advanced and check the check box that says "Allow log in to other grids".  Then a drop down list will appear on the login page with a list of grids to choose from.

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A question about Linden Lab not being exactly thrilled about mention of other grids on their forums (or putting the log into other grids in their official viewers).  Would you think badly of Office Depot because they frowned on people handing out ads or fliers for Staples inside their stores?  Wouldn't that be expected of Office Depot?  It's pretty obvious why LL doesn't link other grids in any of their veiwers.  The fact that LL does allow the TPV's to link other grids is so conveniently forgotten..........they don't have to allow that, but they do.

 

And a note on the "alternative" grids.  If you are looking for improvement in performance in those grids you're in for some disappointments.  Every one of those grids that I've visiited (and there have been several) the performance and features are just about 2 years behind Second Life.  SL has issues.......but far, far less than the "alternative" grids.  And the problems experienced on those grids are with fewer features that are common in SL.  Things like physics are either not available or very borked.  Teleports fail quite a bit more often, sim crossings get you disconnected often, group chats simply don't work.  I'm not dissing those grids......tthey are experiencing the same growing pains that SL has already gone through (about 2 years ago).  I'm sure those grids (or, at least, the ones that survive) will get those kinks worked out and then they can work on mesh imports and better in-world currency transactions (most don't have a way to cash out the in-world currency).  Those grids have a way to go..........it's not a bad thing but if you are looking for a "better" grid, you're in for a surprise  Grandpa SL ain't so bad after all.

 

And just for the record.  I'm sort of odd when it comes to "problems".  Unless lag is so bad that motion is down to less than about 10 FPS I can deal with it.  The times I see such low FPS are very rare anymore (I would say non-existant except that as soon as I do that Murphy's Law will kick in).  Chat lag is probably the most irritating for me.............I hate it with a passion (but I haven't experienced that for more than a just a few seconds in close to a year).  Second Life has improved.  Improved substanially in the past couple years.  It has more to do, of course, but by that time there will be something new to bitch about.  It never ends and if you are going to ever enjoy SL then you will have to learn to live with some "problems" until they are worked out......and then face some new ones that weren't there before.  That's just the nature of progress in an experimental world.

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