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Adjust Shape Height Limits to users demands


Medhue Simoni
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Penny Patton wrote:

 On the other hand, I doubt LL will allow a greater range of avatar sizes because it would require a complete overhaul of every slider in the appearance editor, which woiuld affect all current avatars. This seems like a feature that would be ideally implemented with a new avatar mesh with an all new appearance editor accompanying it. (Implemented in such a way as to allow people to switch between the old and the new as they choose to prevent breaking content.)

Why would every slider need to be overhauled? The Height slider is the only slider that needs adjusting. It is possible that adjusting the Height slider limits might affect all shapes, but that is not plainly obvious if it would be a problem or not. It is just as likely that old shapes will not be affected, depending on how it all works. If the shape data is saved as actual height and not just the percentage of the slider, than there is no reason to think that adjusting the Height slider limits will break every shape.

This is all just speculation tho.

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Well, that was a bad explanation...

the percentage of other parameters is not changed, but their effect.

Example: Head size has an effect on all subcategorys of the head. If you make the head smaller, the eyes become smaller too, even if you don't make a change at slider for them. They stay the same in proportion to the head, but become smaller.

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Millennium Sands wrote:

Well, that was a bad explanation...

the percentage of other parameters is not changed, but their effect.

Example: Head size has an effect on all subcategorys of the head. If you make the head smaller, the eyes become smaller too, even if you don't make a change at slider for them. They stay the same in proportion to the head, but become smaller.

You just explained exactly why changing the height slider will have no real effect on all the other sliders. Because doing so simply makes the body proportioned correctly based on the one setting(one can consider this the "base" setting, of sorts). The other sliders won't move, the body will simply adjust all the pieces and parts based on the height, and keep them in proportion. The same way the eyes, mouth, etc.. change when you adjust head size.

So no, changing the height slider shouldn't have a negative impact on the other sliders. Assuming they do/did it correctly of course. I'm sure they could change something, that would mess something up, if they tried. But, in theory, it should not, it should work exactly the way it does now, just with higher and lower options (aka, less limitations on the "base" height)

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

The Height slider is the only slider that needs adjusting.

 

 

This assumption is understandable but incorrect, the appearance editor isn't nearly so straightforward. The "Height" slider does not scale your entire avatar smaller and larger, it squashes and stretches several parts of your body, and not consistently, either.

 

This is why you can't just use the height slider to scale down a shape (it will leave you looking like a squashed hobbit) and why women at 5'5" can have perfectly proportioned arms, but even at 100 on the arm length slider women at 6'8" will have noticibly short arms.

If you want a 15 foot tall avatar with proportionate limbs then the arm and leg  length sliders will need to be affected. You'll also need a greater possible amount of fat, shoulder width and muscle mass or your 15' tall avatar will look like a beanstalk.

 As Millenium points out the sliders are 0-100, so if you change what the numbers at the extreme ends result in you've altered every shape on the grid. However they are not quite percentages. Moving the height slider from 0 to 100 does not result in a smooth transition, there are places where the height change is more gradual and other places where height will jump noticibly. The same can be said of the other sliders, as well.

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Tari Landar wrote:

You just explained exactly why changing the height slider will have no real effect on all the other sliders. Because doing so simply makes the body proportioned correctly based on the one setting(one can consider this the "base" setting, of sorts). The other sliders won't move, the body will simply adjust all the pieces and parts based on the height, and keep them in proportion. The same way the eyes, mouth, etc.. change when you adjust head size.


 

 You'd think it would work that way, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, it does not. I'm really not entirley certain what the exact mechanics are behind the appearance editor sliders but they do not work the way everyone thinks.

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Unless you wrote the code, or even looked at it, then you can't not say how it works or who is wrong or right. Me, I just make and understand how the avatar works, cause I made 1. I understand how and what affects the slider. The sliders would seem to be independent, and if they were not, then changing the height would automatically change other sliders. It does not. If I choose to make my avatar half a meter tall, and yes my body is squashed, then I just goto the sliders that thins me out in different areas. 1 has nothing to do with the other. The sliders are making certain bones bigger/smaller and that is it. Now, based on this theory, which is my own theory based on the little I know, there will be points where the other sliders don't expand close enough or far enough to match the height. That makes total sense.

If you just look at the example I show in the jira, which i will post here:

AvatarShapeHeight.jpg

You see here that my whole avatar is scaled down, except the width, which have to do with other sliders. So, changing the height limit alone is not going to make you have to change others. Well, beside the problem I explained above. The only real issue is what would happen to old shapes if the range was changed. I'd bet nothing at all.

The way I imagine it tho, these limits are simply digits punched into lines of code. That is really the extent of the change. I'm sure it could be more complicated than that, but I doubt much more. Even the algorythm for scaling all the parts, that is the same irreguardless of the height.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Unless you wrote the code, or even looked at it, then you can't not say how it works or who is wrong or right. Me, I just make and understand how the avatar works, cause I made 1. I understand how and what affects the slider.

 

You don't see the blatant contradiction you wrote here?

I'm not pulling my statements out of nowhere. I literally wrote the book on the appearance editor, based on years of observation and making many, many avatars. Not just making avatars but deliberately experimenting with shapes to  see how the appearance editor works.

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How ironic that in the flesh world some girls wish that their arms were shorter or that they were taller and that in the digital world they are being told they are too tall and their arms are too short. Conspiracy! :P

(not to take away from your tireless campaign to educate on proper proportions and inworld enhancement via scale)

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Penny Patton wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:

Unless you wrote the code, or even looked at it, then you can't not say how it works or who is wrong or right. Me, I just make and understand how the avatar works, cause I made 1. I understand how and what affects the slider.

 

You don't see the blatant contradiction you wrote here?

Knowing how the code works and understanding the affects of sliders are 2 different things. As you read on, I say I have a theory, like you, base on my understanding. While our theories might be different, 1 does not discount the other, nor does it discount my quoted statements. This is not a fight, it's a discussion.

See here's the thing, this is what jiras are for, and testing. Why push so hard to defend your line when the proof is in the testing. Let the users decide whether this could be important to them. Me, as someone who deals with unusual avatars all the time, I see the problems blatantly, and the frustration by the users. They are not mad at me at all or even LL, just that stuff doesn't work together. Learning SL is hard enough, then you add that half the stuff in it can't work with half the avatars, now it starts down the unbearable range. Me, I'm there to help them, but they don't know about this or that and where do I find that viewer with this feature or that. The goal should be to make things easy for every1, creators included.

 You know, I think our 2 arguements have 2 completely different understandings of what is exceptable. My goal is functionality, not whether a child avatar looks like a child or is the proper size. Now we have mesh and if we want a perfectly proportioned any age avatar than just pop open Blender or Max. I could really care less about proportions as this is handled in 3d programs. I just would like everyone using the same template.

Did I not just see a tweet from Rod about the average avatar height. So, obviously they know that issue, but again, completely unrelated to this issue.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Knowing how the code works and understanding the affects of sliders are 2 different things. As you read on, I say I have a theory, like you, base on my understanding. While our theories might be different, 1 does not discount the other, nor does it discount my quoted statements. This is not a fight, it's a discussion.

 

Er, I was just pointing out how your theory doesn't hold up to testing and observation. Just because I point out things that don't line up with your theory doesn't make it a fight, it's what makes it a discussion.

 I said right at the beginning that I think it would be great if we had a wider range of avatar sizes, I'm just bringing up some observations that don't line up with some of your statements.

 


Medhue Simoni wrote:

See here the thing, this is what jiras are for, and testing. Why push so hard to defend your line when the proof is in the testing. Let the users decide whether this could be important to them. Me, as someone who deals with unusual avatars all the time, I see the problems blatantly, and the frustration by the users. They are not mad at me at all or even LL, just that stuff don't work together. Learning SL is hard enough, then you add that half the stuff in it can't work with half the avatars, now it starts down the unbearable range. Me, I'm there to help them, but they don't know about this or that and where to I find that viewer with this feature or that. The goal should be to make things easy for every1, creators included.

 

This is a web forum, you started a thread and I offered some insight into the topic. That's what web forums are for.

 Again, I'm not attacking your idea, a wider range of avatar sizes, I'm just pointing out why adding it might be more complicated than you think based on what I know about the appearance editor and how the sliders affect things.

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Again, I think our disagreement has to do with looks and proportion. To me, it doesn't matter whether the defualt SL avatar is a little distorted at 5m tall, or a tiny human's shoulders are a bit too wide. How distorted will they be? I can't tell exactly. That's what testing is for, or looking at the code.

Plus, it would not hurt at all for LL to take a look at all the sliders and limits. I mean, it is 2012.

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Penny Patton wrote:


Charolotte Caxton wrote:

in the flesh world some girls wish that their arms were shorter

I know you're joking and all, but I hever never heard anyone wish for shorter arms. Especially not as short as they often are in SL. :smileylol:

Really? Do you know what a pain it is trying to find long sleeves that aren't too short? Its like the topic of almost every family gathering around here, especially during Christmas and shopping sprees :) (ok, so maybe we dont wish for shorter arms, just longer sleeves! :D)

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Yes, that is why we need a Z axis slider in the Appearance editor too. I think Firestorm has 1, so i been told. I've never used it yet tho. That is for another jira tho.

Would it not be a heck of alot easier for creators, and for users, if we just controlled the size with the slider tho?

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The way I see it it's possible to widen the range of the avatar height without breaking any content.

We can slide from 0-100 now....

Let's say LL widens the range from -100 to 200..or -200 to 300, -300 to 400 etc, so 50 stays in the middle.

Then we have a slider nobody understands.

So LL can rescale those numbers, existing content would stay the same, but a different number would show up in the editor. If they make the range twice as large, an avatar which has a height of 25 now, will have a height of 38, an avatar with a height of 0 will have a height of 25, an avatar with 100 will be 75. All the exact same, but with extra room.

This doesn't fix the arms issue, but for that slider they could do the exact same thing, or for any slider that won't offer enough length.

I don't know how hard it is to make the code, but I'm sure it won't be all that difficult.

Only real downside I see is the larger you make the scale to offer very small and very tall avatars, the bigger the steps are between two numbers. I don't know if the slider is lineair, if it is maybe it needs to be exponential in both directions from where the "extra length" is added.

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I simply do not understand the perceived resistance Linden Lab has to anything that will improve our Avatars.  Things like fixing the sliders, better default Ava's for the new users, Avatar 2.0.  Maybe there are technical limitations but I am in doubt of this based on the number of technically competent people who speak up on these issues.

All this work they are putting into the improving how the SL World appears with shadows and depth of field, etc is wonderful.  But while it may not be this extreme, the SL World will begin to look like, well, can you imagine if Monet had drawn stick figures in his landscapes?

 

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To be fair to LL, they have done quite a bit lately. We've gotten new avatars for newbies twice this year that I know of, and they seem to be working on many things that we have complained about.

I just want to touch on Avatar 2.0. Of course, I'm not a Linden, so I really have no clue, but I seriously doubt Avatar 2.0 is ever going to happen. Changing the default avatar would be a major overhaul. It is possible to do it in a way to save all past user created content and allow it to work, but again, no small task. Plus, in the end, few people would be happy with 2.0 as well, lol.

Mesh is a nice alternative, but it can't use the clothing layers, and the creator would either need to make all the clothing themselves, or they would need to give out the model for free for any1 to create on. Clothing layers are important tho, and a nifty way to have clothing without adding geometry. If people are very passionate about Avatar 2.0, I would suggest working with a mesh avatar maker to create a standardize human mesh avatar for all clothing makers to create on. Of course, this mesh Avatar 2.0 will not be able to use all the sliders like the default, hence limiting that avatar also. Maybe the creator can make different options but keep the body relatively the same for clothing.

I would very much bet against LL ever changing the default avatar. What do I know tho.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

To be fair to LL, they have done quite a bit lately. We've gotten new avatars for newbies twice this year that I know of, and they seem to be working on many things that we have complained about.

I just want to touch on Avatar 2.0. Of course, I'm not a Linden, so I really have no clue, but I seriously doubt Avatar 2.0 is ever going to happen. Changing the default avatar would be a major overhaul. It is possible to do it in a way to save all past user created content and allow it to work, but again, no small task. Plus, in the end, few people would be happy with 2.0 as well, lol.

Mesh is a nice alternative, but it can't use the clothing layers, and the creator would either need to make all the clothing themselves, or they would need to give out the model for free for any1 to create on. Clothing layers are important tho, and a nifty way to have clothing without adding geometry. If people are very passionate about Avatar 2.0, I would suggest working with a mesh avatar maker to create a standardize human mesh avatar for all clothing makers to create on. Of course, this mesh Avatar 2.0 will not be able to use all the sliders like the default, hence limiting that avatar also. Maybe the creator can make different options but keep the body relatively the same for clothing.

I would very much bet against LL ever changing the default avatar. What do I know tho.

Whether or not Avatar 2.0 could be implemented without breaking a lot of content I am not technically competent enough to comment.  I leave that to others who are smarter than me to figure out.  All I know is that there are some who feel it can be done.

While I am not against MESH per-se, I am not a big supporter of it either.  I am of the school that clothes should fit the Avatar, not the other way around.  And even if you don't mind a change in the way your shape looks, here we are again having to jump through hoops using alphas in order to look right.  So in essence we are having to use a hack. 

So my thought is, why not do Avatar 2.0 and get it right with the future in mind.  Why not enable sliders to modify mesh to fit the avatar so we can get rid of all the extra alphas that are for some people causing drastic drops in frame rates?

If implemented carefully and with fore thought maybe it could be done with out causing major disruptions.

Look at all the people who are opting to use the less than perfect looking prim feet in order to 'look their best.'  We want to look good but we are having to jump through too many hoops to do so.  Let's get rid of the hoops.  After all, isn't that what you are asking for with the slider changes?

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Actually mesh clothing that will automatically fit avatars may be coming very soon. A group contracted Qarl Fizz, a former Linden, to develop a system to deform mesh clothing to fit current avatars and it's coming along very well. It's already part of some development viewers. It won't work perfectly with current meshes because the mesh should ideally start out using the default "Ruth" shape so that it will respond properly to sliders and the plan is to make it the mesh maker's option as to whether the mesh item will follow the sliders or not. When it's released and when clothing makers catch up, though, it should fix most of people's concerns with mesh clothing.

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Well, the mesh clothing issue is because it was not implemented right. Any1 who thought about mesh clothing for a minute and knows how to make it, would see right away the problems that would happen. LL pushed mesh out, to the cheers of many non clothing makers, knowing clothing was an issue. The solution to clothing not fitting is already in alpha testing and seems to work decent, but some issues need to be worked out. Personally, I thought it was smart to release mesh when they did, as they worked on it for over 3 years. What I don't think was a good idea was not warning people about clothing or straightout discouraging the creation of clothing until proper fixes were in place. Maybe LL thought creators would find their own solution, but for something like this, that kind of seems a delusional state of mind, given the problem. There were honestly not alot of mesh clothing makers in the beta testing, at least that I saw. The mesh clothing backlash tho, gosh, who could anticipate that, lol.

Yes, Avatar 2.0 is possible and it is possible to make another default that does not break textures and clothing, at least from what I understand of the default avatar. Not breaking other stuff, like shapes, or shoes or eyes, or others, i have no clue about. The question is really, how important is this to the whole of SL, over arbitrary skeletons for mesh. Or over a pathfinding system for NPCs. I agree that a better default avatar would be nice, but I also put that avatar into the context that it is versatile, and despite it's flaws, there is still some genius in it. If people really want beautiful feet or hands or whatever, they really should invest their money into a creator that specializes in doing that, not relying on a defualt avatar created for versatility.

What I would rather LL spend their precious time on, which is related, is improving the avatar creation tools and making our mesh avatars compatible with all the sliders that change your avatar. The mesh deformer that is being worked on for clothing shows that when this is applied to a whole mesh avatar, now all the sliders work, morphs and all, and maybe expressions. This means that some1 could make a Avatar 2.0 and all the sliders would work and that mesh avatar could have the same range of sizes and shapes as the default has. The problem is, we the creators of mesh avatars are not able to adjust the morph target areas. If we had a way to adjust the morph target areas, then Avatar 2.0 would be here already, again just without the ability to wear clothing layers. Who knows tho, I can imagine creative ways to get some layers to work.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Well, the mesh clothing issue is because it was not implemented right. Any1 who thought about mesh clothing for a minute and knows how to make it, would see right away the problems that would happen. LL pushed mesh out, to the cheers of many non clothing makers, knowing clothing was an issue. The solution to clothing not fitting is already in alpha testing and seems to work decent, but some issues need to be worked out. Personally, I thought it was smart to release mesh when they did, as they worked on it for over 3 years. What I don't think was a good idea was not warning people about clothing or straightout discouraging the creation of clothing until proper fixes were in place. Maybe LL thought creators would find their own solution, but for something like this, that kind of seems a delusional state of mind, given the problem. There were honestly not alot of mesh clothing makers in the beta testing, at least that I saw. The mesh clothing backlash tho, gosh, who could anticipate that, lol.

Yes, Avatar 2.0 is possible and it is possible to make another default that does not break textures and clothing, at least from what I understand of the default avatar. Not breaking other stuff, like shapes, or shoes or eyes, or others, i have no clue about. The question is really, how important is this to the whole of SL, over arbitrary skeletons for mesh. Or over a pathfinding system for NPCs. I agree that a better default avatar would be nice, but I also put that avatar into the context that it is versatile, and despite it's flaws, there is still some genius in it. If people really want beautiful feet or hands or whatever, they really should invest their money into a creator that specializes in doing that, not relying on a defualt avatar created for versatility.

What I would rather LL spend their precious time on, which is related, is improving the avatar creation tools and making our mesh avatars compatible with all the sliders that change your avatar. The mesh deformer that is being worked on for clothing shows that when this is applied to a whole mesh avatar, now all the sliders work, morphs and all, and maybe expressions. This means that some1 could make a Avatar 2.0 and all the sliders would work and that mesh avatar could have the same range of sizes and shapes as the default has. The problem is, we the creators of mesh avatars are not able to adjust the morph target areas. If we had a way to adjust the morph target areas, then Avatar 2.0 would be here already, again just without the ability to wear clothing layers. Who knows tho, I can imagine creative ways to get some layers to work.

Thank you for responding.  I have been trying to stay better informed on what is going on but it can really be hard to stay up to date on everything.  My interest is based more as a user than as a creator.  While I do have a basic understanding in how to torture prims and twist them beyond recognition, I really don't build much.  My basic interest in SL is more 'social' and enjoying everyday activities.

As far as the Avatar mesh goes and Avatar 2.0, I am not looking for perfection or being able to wiggle toes individually.  But as one woman I know put it, "If there is any proof that SL was designed by men it's our feet.  A woman would have never stood for the travesty they call feet in SL."

I understand that Linden Lab needs to look at what they invest time in and the return on that investment.  It's just that some issues it appears they have left them on the back burner too long and now they are burned solid to the pan.  I truly hope they don't dawdle on the mesh issues.

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Considering what I saw with the mesh deformer for clothing. Some1 could drop the default avatar into blender, add more vertices to all the areas that people complain about. Adjusting a few of them to be better shaped, then smooth out the bone weights a bit, and upload it back into SL with all the sliders working right, cause it still is the exact default shape almost. Mesh avatars can be flaky tho, but once a creator got a good workflow, they could pretty easily make whatever corrections some1 wanted. How the deformer will change, and how they choose to handle the issues is unknowable tho.

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