Medhue Simoni Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Copy and pasted from the jira that I just created:The limits for shape height makes creating the range of avatars that people want more difficult than it should be. After creating my first Mesh Avatar, it became clearly apparent to me that these arbitrary shape height limits are just that, arbitrary. Currently, for any1 to make tiny avatars, users have to create them in some extremely odd ways, which even further limits the avatar. To create a monster avatar that is taller than 2.2 meters, which many monsters are taller than that, a creator has to jump thru many other hoops, and again limits these avatars more. By simply making the shape height limits more reasonable considering what the residents want, would make things much more pleasant for both creators and users of these avatars. Plus, it keeps the avatars compatible with other aspects of SL like animations. Right now, the height limits are something like 1.68m to 2.20m. My suggestion would be to change the height range to something like .25m to 5m,If LL does adjust the shape height limits, while LL does this, they might want to consider adding a z axis control into the shape editor, much like is implemented in some 3rd party viewers. I know there are jiras for this somewhere. I'll try to hunt them down when i have time, or write my own jira for that, if needed. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28098 If you think this is needed or have experienced issues with height limits, then please vote, watch, comment on the jira. Plus, we can talk about it more here, in the forums. If any person knows of a current jira for a Z axis controller, please post the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charolotte Caxton Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If you as a creator believe this feature will be beneficial to the Second Life community, then I will support you. Voted and watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Thanks Charolotte!! I really don't see any reason for this limited range for avatar shapes, and all the ways around the height limits cause problems elsewhere, as far as creating them goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irene Muni Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Voted and watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Furse Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 voted ... :smileyhappy: *meows* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Patton Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: To create a monster avatar that is taller than 2.2 meters, which many monsters are taller than that, a creator has to jump thru many other hoops, and again limits these avatars more. Not disagreeing it would be great to have a wider range of avatar sizes but wanted to correct this small detail, the standard SL avatar can be anywhere from 4'1" to 8'10" without jumping through any hoops. 8'10" is 2.7m tall. Remember, the height displayed in the SL appearance editor (or any script reading AgentHeight by itself) is short by about six inches or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Thanks every1 for supporting this. Not to be arguementative, but there are a few factors that go into overall height. I'm sure the other settings for other sliders have an affect on overall height. I just went inworld, and then rez a cube next to my avatar, raising it up to my overall height. Based on the cube, my avatar was 2.35 meters, not the 2.20 meters the editor says I am. Of course, whatever the actual total limits are, they still need to be adjusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Until normal human avatars start scaling down, I can't get behind any effort to allow larger avatars, even for non humans - knowing full well it will just result in the club bimbos going from their current 12 feet to 20 feet... While, as a fan of the movie Avatar who wishes my Na'vi could have been the proper size, I understand where you're coming from... I just do not trust creators enough to be willing to get behind it. That said, it appears that rezzed mesh items go down in prim cost by a significant amount if scaled down to 'human scale' rather than 'SL bimbo scale' (so far I've gotten a 10% return on this), which might help reduce sizes of avatars over time on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charolotte Caxton Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 If the trend is taller avatars maybe people want to be taller. Depriving anyone of that choice just because you don't trust the club bimbos to keep it down to realistic scales is not fair to those creators, such as yourself, that would like to be able to create realistic Na'vi, for example. Don't get me wrong, I understand yours and Penny's campaign and educational efforts to enhance and improve SL by means of intelligent design, but unless everyone in Second Life is required to show proof of computer graphics design certificates, this will always be a world of the amateurs for the amateurs and created by the amateurs, not that excellent designers are not wanted or appreciated, they are what makes this world excellent in its craziness. This is not an argument, just a different perspective, humbly submitted, as I do not create avatars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 I do not see where that issue has anything at all to do with this issue. People are tall for many, many reasons. I guess it is 1 thing if people don't know that they are really taller than normal, but beyond that I don't see where it really matters how tall some 1 is. What if the person is really tall in real life? I usually have a normal size avatar, like 6'3", and in real life I'm 6' tall. Getting the height limits changed has to do with fixing a major flaw in thinking about avatar sizes. Folding up skeletons to make tinies, or deforming bones to make monster are not good sensical creation methods that make the avatars less appealing not more, and break compatibility with other things. I guarantee that every1 is not going to go running around in human avatars that are 8 feet tall, at least not anymore than they do now. Plus, you do not have a choice. Larger avatars will be made whether you like them or not. They will be made whether this jira gets implemented or not. They would get made even if LL hates their guts. The real question is whether they will be compatible or not, and how much extra time it takes a creator to make them. Mesh avatars have more than enough creation frustrations, with rigging, bones and all that jazz. To pile on size manipulation, is just silly when we have a height slider right in the viewer. The end result benefits the users the most, and that is what we all should be hoping for, a better user experience, with less problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo Yardley Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I think it should be able to be tiny and HUGE. From 5 inches to 50 foot or taller. As long as the BASIC STARTER avatars become more realistic scaled. The avatar editor should also display the correct height and perhaps a little marker on the sliders that shows what part of the slider is realistic so you at least know when you're making your avatar unrealistic. People can be as tiny or huge as they want to be, as long as they know they are not realistic. It would be awesome to be a giant, even if just for a "stamp on village" photo shoot or to film a SL version of SL. It would also be cool to be really tiny, and live in someones doll house Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Exactly! And even cooler, is doing that with motion capture animation.:matte-motes-sunglasses-3: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo Yardley Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 We're so going to recreate this movie hehehe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_of_the_50_Foot_Woman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Nice! There is a guy in the mesh forums that just got his gorilla ape rigged. Now, I just need to model the empire state building, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo Yardley Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hahahaha, I've got the vintage cars, clothes, hairstyles, biplanes and suicidal pilots! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charolotte Caxton Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Ooooh! I love the dollhouse idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo Yardley Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Charolotte Caxton wrote: Ooooh! I love the dollhouse idea! You could build an entire HUGE city with LOTS of houses... if everything is tiny tiny tiny. Or you could simply live in a victorian old dusty dollhouse in a forgotten messy attic... Not to mention that you can be the 'borrowers', living under the floor of a house where giant avatars live. Or just be Smurfs Or sneak around sims without being noticed! And remember the Greenies? Wouldn't it be awesome to build a giant house and then explore it as a tiny little person? So many new options! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 And the best part, If you are really tiny like that. A mesh dollhouse would be super low in prim cost, with probably tons of detail, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charolotte Caxton Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Yes yes yes! My dream has always been to be fairy sized, the size of a butterfly, so I could flitter wherever I pleased Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo Yardley Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Ok its totally soft and pink and girly and Disney... but I can so imagine a bunch of fairies simply living in a garden on flowers or in old broken bottles, houses made with old cans, etc. OOooh we could be ants in an anthil I better stop now, I already have a zillion plans for a SL as it is, if we get all sizes of avatars I'll get even more. And its not like I haven't got enough to do already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charolotte Caxton Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hey, when you need help raiding that picnic, I'm in! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I've heard the argument that if everyone were smaller they would not need as much land and could lower prim counts and land impact etc. If people pay for the land to support it, for what possible valid reason should they be restricted from building a giant's castle out of thousands of prims to live in with their 30m avatar and entertain other giants in? You don't like tall/giant humans and think all humans should be in human scale and are against the JIRA. That's your choice. I'd be the first person to defend it as your right to think that way and to build on a scale that the tall humans can't use or put a height restriction on any venue you own. But calling all tall avi's 'bimbos' and saying you don't 'trust' creators to stick to your personal desires is a strange attitude coming from a neko that seems to be against bigotry. My regular personal avi is 'human scale' because that is what I personally find the most comfortable for everyday use, I do have other avi's I can wear for fun though, from a huge dragon to a micro avi. I voted for the JIRA as I believe that the more variety there is in the world the more interesting it is. I would also support changing the appearance tools to show measurements in actual proportions as they relate to RL and see no conflict in the two things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irene Muni Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: My regular personal avi is 'human scale' because that is what I personally find the most comfortable for everyday use, I do have other avi's I can wear for fun though, from a huge dragon to a micro avi. I voted for the JIRA as I believe that the more variety there is in the world the more interesting it is. I would also support changing the appearance tools to show measurements in actual proportions as they relate to RL and see no conflict in the two things. Totally agree. And more: only a "normal" human scale gives the true sense of the large/small sizes of other avatars (dragons, mouses, giants, martians, or Spaghetti Monster LOL). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 There's one thing you can do, especially since you're an animator. Everybody knows the tiny avatars, elves, stuffed animals, cute things like that. They can be made with some weird animation hack as far as I know, stretching the bones (often called avatar deformation). The same can be done to make giant avatars. I couldn't find a link, but I've seen a giant viking, looking well over 3 meters tall and quite impressive at that height. The way I feel about it is a bit double. I never liked hacks, since they have no support and might be impossible to use due to LL changes in the code at any given time. Recently we've seen this with the invisiprim (which was more a glitch or bug than a hack, but still). On the other hand it is harder to make very small or very large avatars. This way when you actually do have one, it is likely it will be seen as very out of the ordinary, which is what you are after. I think if the slider allows 5 meter avatars, the average scale of them will go up quite quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Patton Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: I've heard the argument that if everyone were smaller they would not need as much land and could lower prim counts and land impact etc. If people pay for the land to support it, for what possible valid reason should they be restricted from building a giant's castle out of thousands of prims to live in with their 30m avatar and entertain other giants in? You don't like tall/giant humans and think all humans should be in human scale and are against the JIRA. That's your choice. I'd be the first person to defend it as your right to think that way and to build on a scale that the tall humans can't use or put a height restriction on any venue you own. But calling all tall avi's 'bimbos' and saying you don't 'trust' creators to stick to your personal desires is a strange attitude coming from a neko that seems to be against bigotry. My regular personal avi is 'human scale' because that is what I personally find the most comfortable for everyday use, I do have other avi's I can wear for fun though, from a huge dragon to a micro avi. I voted for the JIRA as I believe that the more variety there is in the world the more interesting it is. I would also support changing the appearance tools to show measurements in actual proportions as they relate to RL and see no conflict in the two things. I really do not think you understood Pussycat's comment. She's not against people who deliberately choose to be larger from being able to do so, she's concerned that with all of the confusion about scale in SL it could potentially lead to further confusion and more unintentional upscaling of the general population. I share that concern although I agree with Medhue that it is a variety of issues that lead to the current state of scale in SL and I believe LL is fully capable of dealing with the scale issue in a very short period of time, which would allow them to do so before expanding on the ability to create larger/smaller avatars. On the other hand, I doubt LL will allow a greater range of avatar sizes because it would require a complete overhaul of every slider in the appearance editor, which woiuld affect all current avatars. This seems like a feature that would be ideally implemented with a new avatar mesh with an all new appearance editor accompanying it. (Implemented in such a way as to allow people to switch between the old and the new as they choose to prevent breaking content.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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