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JWtheJayhawk

......and you perfer using a third-party viewers becauce?

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

I've heard this argument many times.  I don't buy it.  This argument is always put forth by gamers and folks who, for whatever reason, love to brag about how good their system is and how crappy others' systems are.  The average human eye detects smooth video at somewhere around 25 to 30 FPS........and because of that smooth video is said to be 30 FPS.  Once you go beyond that threshold of what your eye can see as smooth video, you are only seeing a little more "detail".  When your video card draws a frame twice for every frame your eye detects your colors might look just a little brighter or some small detail might become more crisp.........but you did not see any more movement on the screen (it did not become "smoother").  The 30 FPS is an average......some will see smooth video at a slightly lower rate and some will still it at a higher rate.  I happen to be one who sees smooth video at a slightly lower rate.  But I can see a difference at 45 FPS than at 30 FPS...........the colors are richer.  Beyond that, it's all the same.  I'm probably typical of the whole of the human race in that aspect.  When people tell me that they don't sees smooth video until it's 60 FPS I want to ask them how they watch television or a movie.......those are 25 to 35 FPS.  The argument just doesn't hold water..........it's false.

To start with, the argument was not whether or not more fps gives more detail, but whether it is, in fact, humanly possible to notice at all. Since you say it is, then you're arguing a moot point in the first place, and your argument is actually agreeing with me... so I guess you DO buy it lol. As to how you see tv or a movie, apples to oranges. TV and movies have motion blur, something 99% of all video games do NOT have. This is how the eye is tricked into seeing fluid motion at that low of a framerate. It's not about detail, or crisp colors... it's about fluidity of motion. A series of still images, with no motion blur, has to have a higher framerate, therefore less change between each picture, than one with motion blur to get anywhere near the same effect. The very fact that you're arguing anything at all about colors looking brighter or crispness of detail just shows that you have absolutely no understanding whatsoever of the point that I was putting out. Especially since you actually agreed with it in the first place.

Again.. tv and movies appear smooth because of the inherent motion blur, not because 25fps is the limit of human vision. You understand that incorrectly.

In closing, just to be clear, since you obviously didn't read the link I posted at the start, this is not anything about computer hardware, not an argument about what computer hardware can do. It's about us fleshy old humans, and what we are capable of. You say you are fine and see fluid motion at 30fps, good for you. I can barely stand to watch cartoons, and have a real major problem with most anime, in that I see no smoothness there. I can see the individual frames. In fact even in some live action, especially wide screen movies at the theatre, I can, on occasion, detect the framerate and it bothers me. I think the first time I noticed that was on The Empire Strikes Back, way back in the day. I didn't know what it was then, but I do now.

And yeah, I'm SOOOOO bragging about my 5yr old hardware. It's so 1337!! ROFLMAO!

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Certainly according to the Singularity website, Singularity 1.6.n can see mesh, though not upload it.   

However, in common with other Snowglobe-based viewers, it doesn't support multiple clothing layers as yet (though Henri Beauchmap is working on that with Cool VL and so, apparently, are the Singularity team for their viewer), which means that wearing mesh clothes might be problematic if you need to wear alpha layers anywhere else too, like your feet.

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A question about frame rates.   As far as I can tell, if neither I nor other avatars are doing very much other than walking around, things seem OK at ~19 fps, and not much different from how they look at ~25 fps.   Am I alone in this?

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

A question about frame rates.   As far as I can tell, if neither I nor other avatars are doing very much other than walking around, things seem OK at ~19 fps, and not much different from how they look at ~25 fps.   Am I alone in this?

i think you would notice on animations.but really i think most of those are made at 30fps..when i was getting good frames they just always seemed to move too fast..where when i was getting lower frames they were actually moving more natural lol

as much as i dance i notice that the most..most classes i have seen for animations in sl they use a standard of 30 fps..i don't know if they all do but a lot seem to really move at that rate to me...

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JoJo Moeleneaux wrote:

Most people that have responded have given reasons along the lines of "it works better on my computer", " I prefer the interface", "the tools/options " etc
but I don't see anyone bashing LL viewers
. I haven't seen anyone state their reason for using a TPV is to buck the system, maybe I've missed a post or two but I honestly don't see that as being the primary reason in the replies. 

Scan through the thread for any mention of "V2" and you'll see people bashing LL viewers right left and centre ;)

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Haldir Meskin wrote:

To start with, the argument was not whether or not more fps gives more detail, but whether it is, in fact, humanly possible to notice at all. Since you say it is, then you're arguing a moot point in the first place, and your argument is actually agreeing with me... so I guess you DO buy it lol. As to how you see tv or a movie, apples to oranges. TV and movies have motion blur, something 99% of all video games do NOT have. This is how the eye is tricked into seeing fluid motion at that low of a framerate. It's not about detail, or crisp colors... it's about fluidity of motion. A series of still images, with no motion blur, has to have a higher framerate, therefore less change between each picture, than one with motion blur to get anywhere near the same effect. The very fact that you're arguing anything at all about colors looking brighter or crispness of detail just shows that you have absolutely no understanding whatsoever of the point that I was putting out. Especially since you actually agreed with it in the first place.

Again.. tv and movies appear smooth because of the inherent motion blur, not because 25fps is the limit of human vision. You understand that incorrectly.

In closing, just to be clear, since you obviously didn't read the link I posted at the start, this is not anything about computer hardware, not an argument about what computer hardware can do. It's about us fleshy old humans, and what we are capable of. You say you are fine and see fluid motion at 30fps, good for you. I can barely stand to watch cartoons, and have a real major problem with most anime, in that I see no smoothness there. I can see the individual frames. In fact even in some live action, especially wide screen movies at the theatre, I can, on occasion, detect the framerate and it bothers me. I think the first time I noticed that was on The Empire Strikes Back, way back in the day. I didn't know what it was then, but I do now.

And yeah, I'm SOOOOO bragging about my 5yr old hardware. It's so 1337!! ROFLMAO!

I suppose it's theoretically possible for you to have an extremely high speed of processing visual matter that gives you an unusually high ability to detect frame rates but the examples you gave don't guarantee that. Not all animation is done at the actual projected frame rate. amd sometimes each image is shot for more than one frame, especially in mass-produced animation like most anime. The Empire Strikes Back used extensive model animation and probably didn't have a constant 24 fps animation rate either. If you can detect frames in early Disney animatiom or in a Pixar film that's another story, as they are generally animated at 24 frames per second without motion blur.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


JoJo Moeleneaux wrote:

Most people that have responded have given reasons along the lines of "it works better on my computer", " I prefer the interface", "the tools/options " etc
but I don't see anyone bashing LL viewers
. I haven't seen anyone state their reason for using a TPV is to buck the system, maybe I've missed a post or two but I honestly don't see that as being the primary reason in the replies. 

Scan through the thread for any mention of "V2" and you'll see people bashing LL viewers right left and centre
;)

Depends on the people, I guess.  I didn't hate V2, at least not after the problems in the very early versions got fixed.  

I preferred using V2 (and V3) with Hitomi's Starlight skins  and -- their having RLV/RLVa apart -- preferred Catznip, Dolphin and Marine's RLV to the official viewer because there were particular things I thought they did better than did the official viewer, but I certainly didn't particularly dislike it.   It was just I preferred using other implementations of it than LL's.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

I suppose it's theoretically possible for you to have an extremely high speed of processing visual matter that gives you an unusually high ability to detect frame rates but the examples you gave don't guarantee that. Not all animation is done at the actual projected frame rate. amd sometimes each image is shot for more than one frame, especially in mass-produced animation like most anime. The Empire Strikes Back used extensive model animation and probably didn't have a constant 24 fps animation rate either. If you can detect frames in early Disney animatiom or in a Pixar film that's another story, as they are generally animated at 24 frames per second without motion blur.


 

To be clear, I was talking about some live action footage in Empire, not animated. Regardless, in film you do have absolute control and ALWAYS 24fps, there is no slowdown and varied framerate that is typical on a computer. Regardless, the animation in Empire was done via physical models and elaborate camera rigs, not computer animated, and therefore even their animated sequences have motion blur. Still at 24fps, I can, mostly during pans, detect motion stutter. This is one reason why a few filmakers are now working to move movies to 48fps.

I understand the processes and limitations inherent in animation, that is my career industry.

Pixar films DO have motion blur.

All these things are still not the point, which is, the eye can detect higher than 25fps. Period.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


JoJo Moeleneaux wrote:

Most people that have responded have given reasons along the lines of "it works better on my computer", " I prefer the interface", "the tools/options " etc
but I don't see anyone bashing LL viewers
. I haven't seen anyone state their reason for using a TPV is to buck the system, maybe I've missed a post or two but I honestly don't see that as being the primary reason in the replies. 

Scan through the thread for any mention of "V2" and you'll see people bashing LL viewers right left and centre
;)

I went through the thread and picked out the "bashing" comments. (I might have missed one, I was doing a quick read).

 

"Viewer 2  (a disaster!)"

 

"V2 was a big disappointment,"

 

"I downloaded V2, but the shock of how ridiculously anti-intuative V2's GUI was sent me straight back to Phoenix.....Memories of V2 still make me twitch though."

 

"The V2 was an utter disaster. LL actually had a poll about the V2 in the forum, and 95% of all who did the poll were against it - 95%!!"

 

"When LL first introduced "Viewer 2", the UI was a mess."

 

"the UI on the original V2 was personally horrible to me."

 

"it was a massive UI improvement on the awful LL V2 viewer "

 

"A big problem with the V2 for many people (I know from posts), including me, was the huge non-translucent camera controls. Many people like to have those controls permanently on-screen and you couldn't do that with the V2 "

 

"One of the best words I heard when V2 first was introduced to SL was clusterf4ckery.  For me, V2 at first seemed to be like looking through a letterbox into a dark and dingy hallway"

 

No doubt we could call that all bashing, but in the overall context of this thread, people are responding to why they prefer TPV's so comparisons will happen.

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i used Kirstens after the Emerald thing happened, and used V2 after they fixed the sidebar so it didn't move the world when it slid out...i much prefer the sidebar..i like having everything in one window that i can tuck away when i'm done with it

now i'm using firestorm because they gave me back the sidebar after LL took it away...how ironic...heheh

the only problem i've found with firestorm is the chat bar is way too small, but at least it stays in one place

i do use the official viewer sometimes, and do have it set up so it's 'useable', but the chat notifications being in the top right,  the weird way the chat works, and the lack of the sidebar keep me going back to firestorm

just wanted to put in a positive note for the sidebar...shrug...viewer choice is just that..choice...no reason for anyone to bash someone else because they use a different tool to do the same job...:smileyhappy:

 

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I did and I still don't see users of TPVs bashing the LL viewers.  

Perhaps my interpretation of bashing is different to others but I interpret it to mean an attack and I didn't see anyone attacking.

The context of the statements that Perrie (thanks Perrie) has summarized were pertaining to personal preference, I don't feel they were hateful or attacking, imo they were just pointing out what those posters belief are the flaws in some of the LL viewers. I did see that some of the same posters are using an LL viewer and were only pointing out some flaws in some versions but no, I didn't see TPV users bashing LL viewers, as a few posts stated :matte-motes-smile:

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JoJo Moeleneaux wrote:

I did and I still don't see users of TPVs bashing the LL viewers.  

Perhaps my interpretation of bashing is different to others but I interpret it to mean an attack and I didn't see anyone attacking.

The context of the statements that Perrie (thanks Perrie) has summarized were pertaining to personal preference, I don't feel they were hateful or attacking, imo they were just pointing out what those posters belief are the flaws in some of the LL viewers. I did see that some of the same posters are using an LL viewer and were only pointing out some flaws in some versions but no,
I didn't see TPV users bashing LL viewers, as a few posts stated
:matte-motes-smile:

Fair enough. I took "bashing" to mean "being negative about". My mistake.

I understood those comments to refer to other places, such as group chat.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I understood those comments to refer to other places, such as group chat.

I agree and that it is why I raised it. I just didn't see it happening in this thread :matte-motes-smile:

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Phil Deakins wrote:


JoJo Moeleneaux wrote:

I did and I still don't see users of TPVs bashing the LL viewers.  

Perhaps my interpretation of bashing is different to others but I interpret it to mean an attack and I didn't see anyone attacking.

The context of the statements that Perrie (thanks Perrie) has summarized were pertaining to personal preference, I don't feel they were hateful or attacking, imo they were just pointing out what those posters belief are the flaws in some of the LL viewers. I did see that some of the same posters are using an LL viewer and were only pointing out some flaws in some versions but no,
I didn't see TPV users bashing LL viewers, as a few posts stated
:matte-motes-smile:

Fair enough. I took "bashing" to mean "being negative about". My mistake.

I understood those comments to refer to other places, such as group chat.

I sometimes joke that "I didn't know that I was supposed to hate Linden Lab until I came to these Forums."

One reality here is this, that whether it is just for personal pleasure, business or other professional reasons, people invest their time into Second Life and as in anything you invest your time into, there is the tendency to take issues personally.  So when Linden Lab does something you will hear people speak up.  Some of them are going to speak up quite loudly.

There are a  few who come to troll.  Our opinions as to who those people are may vary.  What I do is try to avoid feeding them.  Because I want this Forum to be productive and enjoyable.  This does not mean that I am above poking someone with a stick at times, but for me, I don't go out of my way to do it.

Honestly, from where I sit, this Forum is dieing and I don't like it.  I am feeling a little bit like a hold out.  I started watching post counts a few weeks ago and to my observance they are way down.  A couple of categories I actually started writing the numbers down.  And so far they look pretty bad.

This past week I asked a couple of questions in the Scripting sub fora and only got a few responses from a couple of Scriptors.  One of my OP's still has some open ended questions in it.

Six months ago when I posted questions there a half dozen scriptors spoke up and the thread continued till there were no open questions left.

So while I would not like to see a return of the Viewer Wars (and flame wars in general), I'd still rather see strong opinions being posted here instead of bland comments.  Mature people will butt heads at times, but they are also able when the head butting is over to shake hands and move on.

At least to me, such is life.

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On the forums being dead thingy, I still find these forums hard to look at. The dont feel like forums. Something like ubuntuforums.org is a good forum. Heck even the old old blue ones here were good. 

 

Im not quite sure why I cant gel with these forums. It just doesnt feel natural using them? 

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

I've never fallen is "love" with any viewer.  It's a browser for heaven's sake.  A tool.  An end to some means. 

 

I love firestorm the way I love my new washer and dryer. They're tools too, and they sure make laundry less of a chore :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:

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UncommonTruth wrote:


Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

I've never fallen is "love" with any viewer.  It's a browser for heaven's sake.  A tool.  An end to some means. 

 

I love firestorm the way I love my new washer and dryer. They're tools too, and they sure make laundry less of a chore :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:

laundry is only a chore if you miss the rinse cycle!\o/

 

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I use Firestorm 3 because it runs best on my computer. It almost never crashes, things rez quickly, and I have very little lag.

With LL's viewer, on the other hand, my avatar never rezzes, and the viewer crashes frequently.

I know people whose experience is exactly the opposite of mine. So I'm not surprised that people's preferences are different.

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I've just recently switched to the latest CoolViewer.....it has V3 engine (same library files) but with a familiar 1.23 UI. It can view Mesh, create 64m mega prims, http textures, double click TPs and has a quality Radar. It doesn't seem to drain my CPU...and has an option called "swapping" in it's Advance menu for those that have less than 4Gb RAM memory. The latest version released 4 days ago can view "shadows"

My SL Partner who was an avid Phoenix fan, says she can use higher settings in Coolviewer without lagging! She tested it out last night, by opting for "high settings" and 512 draw distance and performed better than her Pheonix viewer.

I think it comes down to what Computer you have....if you have top of the range spec,  i can imagine Niran Viewer being a good one to use.

 

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Rene Erlanger wrote:

I've just recently switched to the latest
CoolViewer
.....it has V3 engine (same library files) but with a familiar 1.23 UI. It can view Mesh, create 64m mega prims, http textures, double click TPs and has a quality Radar. It doesn't seem to drain my CPU...and has an option called "swapping" in it's Advance menu for those that have less than 4Gb RAM memory. The latest version released 4 days ago can view "shadows"

My SL Partner who was an avid Phoenix fan, says she can use higher settings in Coolviewer without lagging! She tested it out last night, by opting for "high settings" and 512 draw distance and performed better than her Pheonix viewer.

I think it comes down to what Computer you have....if you have top of the range spec,  i can imagine Niran Viewer being a good one to use.

 

oh i may look into coolviewer then..the last time i was able to use shadows was in kirstens v2..i loved that viewer =)

 

just one question? does it have depth of view ? and if so was she able to get that running also?

 

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Ceka, I just downloaded Cool Viewer and I couldn't find depth of field, and there are just the basic windlight presets, so you would have to download any that you would want to use regularly. Aside from those two things, it seems to be a good viewer.

Heart

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Honestly, from where I sit, this Forum is dieing...


I've not been around all that long. I think that my first post was in late August of 2011. Maybe I haven't been around long enough to see these fora wax & wane. Maybe posting is seasonal, for all I know. But, still... it even seems to me like these fora have gone downhill since back in the fall. What's happened to Ishtara Rothschild, for instance? To Carole Fraizzi & Void Singer? These were some of the most interesting & intelligent people who posted on here and I haven't seen them in quite awhile. Did LL ban them? Did they become bored or disgusted & leave? Guess I wouldn't blame them if they did. I was going to move on over to Second Life Universe and abandon these censored fora but I quickly discovered that the same censorship & clichishness as prevades the LL site is just as bad if not worse over there. From my perspective, limited as it may be, I have to agree with you about the fora dying, Perrie ...

Jeanne

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