......and you perfer using a third-party viewers becauce?

[WolfBaginski Bearsfoot]

Most of what you're looking for is in Firestorm now, better than 90%.

And, yeah, the UI is different enough from Phoenix to be awkward, but it isn't the hell-spawned abortion that is Viewer 2 or the current Viewer 3.

To me, one of the essential features is the ability to change the colour scheme so I can read the chat and IM. The default color scheme in the Linden Viewer is unusable for me, I need to download a third-party add-on just the get readable text, and a different version has to be downloaded for every released version of the Linden Viewer..

The Linden Viewer has been like that for close on two years. Most of the third party viewers have fixes built in. Sure, they all depend on the Linden Lab code, but they fix the problem which Linden Labs doesn't.

[Innula Zenovka]

As I said, the only people I run into who seem that bothered about what viewers other people are using seem to be people who use Phoenix and, to a lesser extent, Firestorm.    Clearly you run into different people, but in my experience, other than among some content creators, like people who make RLV toys and have got to decide what to do about the fact RLVa in Phoenix now seems feature-frozen at a point quite some way behind RLV/RLVa in Firestorm, all V3 tpvs and  in Cool VL and Singularity,  it's not a topic that often comes up.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

On the viewer wars.  What is see is a lot of people using any TPV (but mostly the Phoenix/Firestorm users) taking every opportunity to bash any and all the LL provided viewers........you seldom see it the other way around (though it does happen).  Why is that?  The only reason I can come up with is everyone hates the boss type of cultural group think.....if the "boss" does it, there's something wrong with it.  If one of "boys" did it, then it's the best thing since peanut butter and jelly sammiches.

 

A viewer is a viewer.  If it works for you and you like it, great.....if not you can use another.  Why all the "my viewer is superior to your viewer" crap all the time?  Any observer who is honest and objective can see where most of these "wars" start and who starts them........the kids, of course. 

[Kobuk Farshore]

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

 

A viewer is a viewer.  If it works for you and you like it, great.....if not you can use another.  Why all the "my viewer is superior to your viewer" crap all the time?

---

 

I couldn't agree more. When someone makes a viewer that's perfect in every imaginable way for every imaginable person, then I'll tote it as the best. Until then, I just have favourites. :}

[Marigold Devin]

I tend to agree with you on this Peggy, which is why I didn't post at the start of this thread. Viewers are like shoes, spectacles, handbags, typewriters(!); we all prefer a different type, style, colour. It doesn't mean any of us are wrong or lesser people because of it. 

I flit between Viewer 3 and Phoenix (old non-mesh), mainly because my computer system dictates to me how I live my Second Life.  I don't need the fancy stuff, but I do like the features of Phoenix, although the ones I mainly use are built into Viewer 3 (ie going instantly to a higher point in the sky on a sim).  I guess, because I am a very nosy person, always scanning everyone and everything in a room, I have a bit of paranoia about where my crosshairs are, and it's easy to turn them off with Phoenix. And I much prefer the interface of Phoenix, the colour schemes, the ability to change text colour. And building seems easier for me on Phoenix.

Potatoes, potahtoes, tomatoes, tomahtoes, as the song goes.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Marigold Devin wrote:

I tend to agree with you on this Peggy, which is why I didn't post at the start of this thread. Viewers are like shoes, spectacles, handbags, typewriters(!); we all prefer a different type, style, colour. It doesn't mean any of us are wrong or lesser people because of it. 

I flit between Viewer 3 and Phoenix (old non-mesh), mainly because my computer system dictates to me how I live my Second Life.  I don't need the fancy stuff, but I do like the features of Phoenix, although the ones I mainly use are built into Viewer 3 (ie going instantly to a higher point in the sky on a sim).  I guess, because I am a very nosy person, always scanning everyone and everything in a room, I have a bit of paranoia about where my crosshairs are, and it's easy to turn them off with Phoenix. And I much prefer the interface of Phoenix, the colour schemes, the ability to change text colour. And building seems easier for me on Phoenix.

Potatoes, potahtoes, tomatoes, tomahtoes, as the song goes.

 

---

i really just like seeing the words people use to describe the viewers they hate..that really makes these threads fun..

there are some real doozies that get thrown in the pot..hehehehe

it's almost like you can taste the hate lol

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

As I said, the only people I run into who seem that bothered about what viewers other people are using seem to be people who use Phoenix and, to a lesser extent, Firestorm.

---

^ This.

I'd pretty much say to those makers though, to move on. Its a shrinking base - as those folks are getting cycled over to Firestorm.

If new tools are available, make use of them. In time that will help convince people to upgrade.

 

[Marigold Devin]

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

i really just like seeing the words people use to describe the viewers they hate..that really makes these threads fun..

there are some real doozies that get thrown in the pot..hehehehe

it's almost like you can taste the hate lol

---

 

One of the best words I heard when V2 first was introduced to SL was clusterf4ckery.  For me, V2 at first seemed to be like looking through a letterbox into a dark and dingy hallway, but after a year it has morphed more into an amalgamation of lots of different viewers. 

But yes ... a crazy kind of fun it is to watch the haters hate.  :matte-motes-big-grin-evil:



[JWtheJayhawk]

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

"The only reason I can come up with is everyone hates the boss type of cultural group think.....if the "boss" does it, there's something wrong with it.  If one of "boys" did it, then it's the best thing since peanut butter and jelly sammiches."

 

This is what I really ment when I wrote "or are you just trying to buck the system?"

 

 

[UncommonTruth]

I use firestorm because the LL viewers simply don't work for me, at all. My searches don't work, friends don't show up half the time as online, no sound.. Pretty much anything that could go wrong did go wrong :smileyfrustrated:  It took a little getting used to, but I absolutely love the firestorm viewer.

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

Singularity is a V1-style viewer, based on the Snowglobe codebase, like Cool VL and Phoenix.   And,

si

nce October,

 

it's been able to see mesh.

---

Shhhh... don't tell them.

People want to blame mesh for every bug that occurs in the post-mesh viewers, when often the bug is somewhere else.

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I've never fallen is "love" with any viewer.  It's a browser for heaven's sake.  A tool.  An end to some means.  If V-3 disappeared from the world 10 minutes from now, I wouldn't mourn for even a minute..........I'd just grumble "Dammit, I have to learn some new viewer all over again!".........but, maybe that attitude stems from the early days in SL when we had no choice but to take what LL gave us and sometimes viewer changes were 2 or 3 times a month.  Spend all your time bitching about a tool and be miserable or jump in and make it work so you can get back to having fun.  :smileyvery-happy:

 

edited for numerous dumba$$ mispellings and left out words.

[Conifer Dada]

I tend to stick with LL viewers if I can. Recently I've been using the latest versions of the Beta viewer as they update and they've been fine apart from slow rezzing of avatars.  

But during the last couple of days I've had trouble logging in and the frame rate has become very slow - both for the Beta viewer and the normal V3.  I tried uninstalling them and re-downloading them but that made no difference.  So I tried Firestorm and that seems to work OK - about the same performance as I was getting from the LL Beta viewer before it went funny a couple of days ago.  I'll go back to the LL viewer as soon as it works properly again.  But I'll keep Firestorm for my standalone sims and for emergencies.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

I've never fallen is "love" with any viewer.  It's a browser for heaven's sake.  A tool. 

An end to some means

.  If V-3 disappeared from the world 10 minutes from now, I wouldn't mourn for even a minute..........I'd just grumble "Dammit, I have to learn some new viewer all over again!".........but, maybe that attitude stems from the early days in SL when we had no choice but to take what LL gave us and sometimes viewer changes were 2 or 3 times a month.  Spend all your time bitching about a tool and be miserable or jump in and make it work so you can get back to having fun.  :smileyvery-happy:

 

edited for numerous dumba$$ mispellings and left out words.

---

You missed the big error

[Haldir Meskin]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Templus Carrasco wrote:

      Since the introduction of mesh viewers...be it the current LL Viewer or the Firestorm Release Viewer...my frame rates drop off the chart.

      So I wanted to go with a Viewer 2 style viewer that did not have mesh support and have been quite pleased with the Singularity Viewer.   Actual frame rates I get in my no lag high altitude sky box home are as follows:

      Viewer 3 (LL current release..now called simply "Second Life Viewer")  35fps

      Firestorm Release Viewer  50fps

     Singularity (non mesh but Viewer 2 code based) Viewer  95fps

     So near double the fps with Singularity and this really makes a big difference in a crowded venue.

---

By all means go for the viewer that gives you the highest framerate if you like, but you can't see any difference in their visual performance because the human can't detect framerates above ~25. So the worst of your examples will be as smooth as silk to your eyes.

---

This is incorrect. In fact, in a fast action game I find it almost unplayable under 30fps and need at least 60fps for a smooth experience.I can also tell the difference in games that can reach as high as 120fps on my pc (not state of the art, but i7, 6Gb ram and GTX280). 25fps on a game you are accustomed to playing at 60fps and above will be far from smooth as silk, and be an obvious degradation. Now, SL, if it were capable of sustaining a steady 24fps, would be much smoother than the herky jerky we see a lot of the time, but there's really not a lot of fast action going on there, and sim lag that is a part of our daily life is there to limit everything anyway.

http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html

 

Anyway, to the original topic, I've used 3rd party viewers on and off since '07 and Nicolaz viewer. Used Cool, Greenlife (Emerald before it was Emerald), Imprudance, Meerkat, Dale's, Kirsten's.. others.. can't remember them all. ATM I'm back on LL v3. If there is one viewer that left a bad taste in my mouth it's anything and everything by the Emerald team. Not to mention the attitude that is put off by many (not all, so no reason to go getting butthurt if you're not part of that) of the users. I won't be associated with that ever again.. thank goodness. They got enough chances just because they were the biggest name, the popular thing (yeah yeah, I was a lemming for a short while.. I got over it), but then again, building your name on underage coders that got their foot in the door originally building famous copybot viewers, then making your own "in house" copybot viewer just for your team (Onyx) I guess is not the smartest way to go. All the shenanigans that surrounded that team, not just the viewer but other projects as well.. yeah, so very not my cup of tea.

My best experience, and longest use of a 3rd party viewer would be Imprudence, because it was beyond awesome. Major props also have to go to Henri, for Cool viewer, just because that's some serious tenacity and work ethic to do what he's done to that viewer. One of those two I will likely go back to when mesh is fully stabalized.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Actually, Phil, I didn't...........that's exactly what I meant.  It's an end to the means.  The end being the solution.  The means being how to arrive at the solution. 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I've heard this argument many times.  I don't buy it.  This argument is always put forth by gamers and folks who, for whatever reason, love to brag about how good their system is and how crappy others' systems are.  The average human eye detects smooth video at somewhere around 25 to 30 FPS........and because of that smooth video is said to be 30 FPS.  Once you go beyond that threshold of what your eye can see as smooth video, you are only seeing a little more "detail".  When your video card draws a frame twice for every frame your eye detects your colors might look just a little brighter or some small detail might become more crisp.........but you did not see any more movement on the screen (it did not become "smoother").  The 30 FPS is an average......some will see smooth video at a slightly lower rate and some will still it at a higher rate.  I happen to be one who sees smooth video at a slightly lower rate.  But I can see a difference at 45 FPS than at 30 FPS...........the colors are richer.  Beyond that, it's all the same.  I'm probably typical of the whole of the human race in that aspect.  When people tell me that they don't sees smooth video until it's 60 FPS I want to ask them how they watch television or a movie.......those are 25 to 35 FPS.  The argument just doesn't hold water..........it's false.

[JoJo Moeleneaux]

---

JWtheJayhawk wrote:

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

"The only reason I can come up with is everyone hates the boss type of cultural group think.....if the "boss" does it, there's something wrong with it.  If one of "boys" did it, then it's the best thing since peanut butter and jelly sammiches."

 

This is what I really ment when I wrote "or are you just trying to buck the system?"

 

---

Most people that have responded have given reasons along the lines of "it works better on my computer", " I prefer the interface", "the tools/options " etc but I don't see anyone bashing LL viewers. I haven't seen anyone state their reason for using a TPV is to buck the system, maybe I've missed a post or two but I honestly don't see that as being the primary reason in the replies. 

I agree with Peggy in that if it works for you and you like it great, but I'm struggling to see where the wars, haters and bashes of LL viewers are here, in this thread.  

The op asked what the reasons are for people choosing TPV's and I think that question has been answered as primarily being down to the users preference.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

I've heard this argument many times.  I don't buy it.  This argument is always put forth by gamers and folks who, for whatever reason, love to brag about how good their system is and how crappy others' systems are.  The average human eye detects smooth video at somewhere around 25 to 30 FPS........and because of that smooth video is said to be 30 FPS.  Once you go beyond that threshold of what your eye can see as smooth video, you are only seeing a little more "detail".  When your video card draws a frame twice for every frame your eye detects your colors might look just a little brighter or some small detail might become more crisp.........but you did not see any more movement on the screen (it did not become "smoother").  The 30 FPS is an average......some will see smooth video at a slightly lower rate and some will still it at a higher rate.  I happen to be one who sees smooth video at a slightly lower rate.  But I can see a difference at 45 FPS than at 30 FPS...........the colors are richer.  Beyond that, it's all the same.  I'm probably typical of the whole of the human race in that aspect.  When people tell me that they don't sees smooth video until it's 60 FPS I want to ask them how they watch television or a movie.......those are 25 to 35 FPS.  The argument just doesn't hold water..........it's false.

---

actually higher frames assures a better viewering frame..

running something that is only getting 30 fps you are going to be jumping up and down..the human eye cannot notice anything past 60fps..as far as what it can totally pick up..it does not mean fater speed of viewing..

it's just assuring a better 30fps rather than a jumpy 25 to 30..

these cards getting 120fps or whatever are just buffering for a more stable or more quality at a stable fps..you won't speed up any faster than what a frame rate is set at..but you can keep the frame rate of say a 30fps movie at 30fps on your end with a higher fps on your system

60fps is meaning the human eye will only pick up so much stuff or quality in that time of say 30 fps..

so if i'm running my sl on turbo extra super whatever settings..i may be running around at 30fps but my card may be giving 120 fps to make this really high quality run from one end of the sim to the other a smooth glitchless 30fps run keeping my eye seeing 60fps of quality the whole time..

 

so in other words..

say a movie is set to 30fps

and say i could adjust the quality to where i could max  out what the human eye could pick up..

so i make sure i am seeing 60fps worth of quality

if i had a card that woudl only give 60fps  my quality may possibly jump up and down..if i had a card that gave 120fps

i would never notice a thing and keep 30fps speed  with high quality 60fps the whole time with a 120fps insurance plan lol

thats what i remember from back when i used to do machinima for the guys in our UT clan when they would get an E-peen over their cards..

i was big time into video compression and keeping frames and quality..

we had to because the only thing you could upload back then was AVI's..and people didn't feel like downloading a 500 meg 5 minute avi about a first person shooter unless it was really hot lol

ok now i have to find one lol

this was actually one of the men from a forum i used to  be involved in for UT movies..i wish i could still get the data from that forum..it was pricelss lol

we used to have races to see who could put out the first 2003 or 04 movie ect lol

we had to cut things real close..if you didn't get it right your movie looked like a jpg nightmare lol

i don't see mine on any of the sites that used to hos them..bleh =(

Smiley was good though hehehe enough babbling..give it a look it's pretty neat stuffs hehehe

oh and the standard we used was 25fps at the time for these movies..it just worked out better because 30fps ended up being too fast over all..we adjusted speed with how many screenshots we would add rather than up the frame rate  while converting from image file to video file..

and GKC clan instagib movie..they took advantage of the matrix effect

it's pretty neat hehehe good music also

 

 

 

 

[JeanneAnne]

---

JWtheJayhawk wrote:

I recently downloaded and installed the third-party viewer firestorm. After trying it out for a short time I was unimpressed (to put it mildly) and went back to using the regular Second Life client.

 

Thanks to a feature inside firestorm I noticed a great many of you were using third-party viewers. I really don't understand the appeal of these viewers and why anyone would be compelled to use them when the current SL client seems to be functioning well (well within reason anyway). Which brings me to my question? What motivates you to use a third-party viewer? Is it the "features”, the user interface, or are you just trying to buck the system?

---

When I discovered SL back in August I didn't know about any viewer besides Viewer 2. My initial SL experience was very crappy. I couldn't go more than five minutes without crashing, SL was very laggy, and I couldn't see how ridiculously bouncy my physics was. I was very tempted to just give up on SL.

Then my SL sister suggested that I try a third-party viewer. I downloaded Firestorm and my SL experience was immensely improved. I seldom crashed, lag wasn't so bad and I was embarrassed once I saw how my butt & boobs bounced & jiggled all over the place. Needless to say, I toned the physics wayyyyy down.

I like Firestorm much better than I like Viewer 2 simply because it worked so much better for me. I haven't tried Viewer 3 and see no reason for doing so. I bought a mesh skirt and had to download the mesh enabled Firestorm in order to see it correctly. There are features I like better about the mesh enabled version but it is much laggier than the beta. So for now, since few people are wearing mesh, I use the Firestorm beta unless I want to wear my skirt.

Jeanne

[Peggy Paperdoll]

"actually higher frames assures a better viewering frame..

..."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

That's what I said.......your quality will increase with higher frame rates (up to a point anyway).  Once you surpass what the human eye can discern as smooth video (for the average human that is 25 to 35 FPS) you are only going to your frames painted some degree more than anything you can see.......if it's 60 FPS and your smooth video is seen at 30 FPS, each frame is painted two times for each noticable frame.  The video does not get smoother it gets better until you reach the maximum the video is capable of delivering in quality.  That "jumpy" video you can see at 30 FPS is not your eye seeing the video frame by frame at a slower speed than it can discern as smooth........you're seeing missing frames likely due to packet loss or some other form of missing data.  Sure, if you are getting 90 or 120 FPS you might not notice that packet loss so much since your video card is painting the frame it last recieved 3 or 4 times when that "jump" occurred.....but the lost data is still lost you just didn't see the "jump" because you saw the same frame painted when it happened.  If your packet loss is greater than about 1% you would even see the same "jump" at 60 or 90 FPS.

 

We're arguing a moot point with FPS.  Someone said that his game is unplayable at 30 FPS.......and gave his argument about why.  I said I'd heard that argument before and it didn't wash.........it's not true.  It's the argument many gamers put out to boast about how great their video card and system is......bragging rights.  There's nothing wrong with getting 120 FPS on your system (I actually have gotten those frame rates myself) but to tell the world that in order to play a game you need 60 FPS +.........that's hogwash.  You need what is discernably smooth for your eye (for most that is roughly 30 FPS).

 

As a side and has little to do with the discussion.  Next time you loose your connection to the servers (you know, when you fly or walk off into never never land or you wind up stuck in one spot and can only spin your avatar around) take a look at your FPS...........120 FPS no matter where you are is going to be common.  Even on a GMA 945 IGP accellerator.  And your video is super smooth too.

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

"actually higher frames assures a better viewering frame..

..."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

That's what I said.......your quality will increase with higher frame rates (up to a point anyway).  Once you surpass what the human eye can discern as smooth video (for the average human that is 25 to 35 FPS) you are only going to your frames painted some degree more than anything you can see.......if it's 60 FPS and your smooth video is seen at 30 FPS, each frame is painted two times for each noticable frame.  The video does not get smoother it gets better until you reach the maximum the video is capable of delivering in quality.  That "jumpy" video you can see at 30 FPS is not your eye seeing the video frame by frame at a slower speed than it can discern as smooth........you're seeing missing frames likely due to packet loss or some other form of missing data.  Sure, if you are getting 90 or 120 FPS you might not notice that packet loss so much since your video card is painting the frame it last recieved 3 or 4 times when that "jump" occurred.....but the lost data is still lost you just didn't see the "jump" because you saw the same frame painted when it happened.  If your packet loss is greater than about 1% you would even see the same "jump" at 60 or 90 FPS.

 

We're arguing a moot point with FPS.  Someone said that his game is unplayable at 30 FPS.......and gave his argument about why.  I said I'd heard that argument before and it didn't wash.........it's not true.  It's the argument many gamers put out to boast about how great their video card and system is......bragging rights.  There's nothing wrong with getting 120 FPS on your system (I actually have gotten those frame rates myself) but to tell the world that in order to play a game you need 60 FPS +.........that's hogwash.  You need what is discernably smooth for your eye (for most that is roughly 30 FPS).

 

As a side and has little to do with the discussion.  Next time you loose your connection to the servers (you know, when you fly or walk off into never never land or you wind up stuck in one spot and can only spin your avatar around) take a look at your FPS...........120 FPS no matter where you are is going to be common.  Even on a GMA 945 IGP accellerator.  And your video is super smooth too.

---

we are not arguing i was just agreeing with you but also adding a little more to it is all..heheheh

back away from the keyboard slowly and go to the fridge..take out some bacon..cook bacon and eat..it's the worlds happy food hehehehe

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

After the weeks long, numerous discussions you and I had back when the Teen/Main grid merger was the topic of heated debates, you should know I have nothing be respect and admiration for you......"arguing", for me, is not fighting.  It's discussing differences.  Even the most minor of differences. 

 

Let me rephrase.......we're discussing a moot point.  :smileyvery-happy:

 

Editing..........yeah, I got a project going and I got a beer.  So I'm off for a bit. 

 

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

After the weeks long, numerous discussions you and I had back when the Teen/Main grid merger was the topic of heated debates, you should know I have nothing be respect and admiration for you......"arguing", for me, is not fighting.  It's discussing differences.  Even the most minor of differences. 

 

Let me rephrase.......we're discussing a moot point.  :smileyvery-happy:

 

Editing..........yeah, I got a project going and I got a beer.  So I'm off for a bit. 

 

---

oh i know we are just discussing hehehehe

this topic just jarred some good memories oh my machinima days.. plus it had me looking up older videos from back then i hadn't seen in awhile..

most of what i said was based on examples..not what we would actually need to be able to play and move around

i wish i could get 30 fps on my card lol

[Templus Carrasco]

"By all means go for the viewer that gives you the highest framerate if you like, but you can't see any difference in their visual performance because the human can't detect framerates above ~25. So the worst of your examples will be as smooth as silk to your eyes."

 

Very true Phil but this difference also holds true in crowded and laggy sims for me also.  It is a very noticeable difference between 5fps and 18 fps believe me.

Also someone chimed in that Singularity is Snowglobe code based...which I did not realize...but the version I am using is not mesh enabled.  Perhaps the most current version is.