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Marina Ramer

Marketplace shouldn´t allow freebies or dollarbies anymore

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Snow Frostwych wrote:

Asking other merchants why the "right"? Well, you're talking to the wrong people. It's LL you should be hollering at. It's their marketplace & they set the rules.


I'm trying to be clearer about that lately. I do NOT point any fingers at any customer of SL, merchants, free users and even most employees at LL, or bear them ill will. Hard for me to get context and full meaning across in these forums.

It is the leadership and management at LL that I lay every bit of blame on.

Some investors of Yahoo! want to see a new board re-instated because they're botching things horribly.

When I pay these kind of costs and I'm told it's my world, I kind of feel vested in it. And I want top level things to change, that includes getting rid of some board members that allow things to keep getting botched or interject the wrong things into the product.

This stuff we're talking about now can be solved, but someone has to pay attention up there.

 

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

I've got about 3000 combinations of product that are not listed on marketplace.  I'm not really sure what your number has to do with anything.  If I have some time tomorrow, I might just make some lime green glass stuff and get that stuff up.  Or a Holy Cow Sofa.  Maybe someone will beat me to the punch.  If so, High Fives.

I'm luvin' that Holy Cow Catsuit.  I didn't want one of those yesterday, but I sure want one now.  Not sure if I can wear it in the store, though.

There's still place for
ANY ITEM IMAGINEABLE. 

Please stop telling all of these merchants that the market is saturated and untouchable.  That is simply not true.  Not even close.  Where the heck is the lime green glass?

"Not every In-world Merchant lists their products on Marketplace"

If they want to make some money, why the heck don't they have stuff listed?   Huh?

I pointed it out, because one could likely find lime-green grass in-world....infact i have one such terrain texture....it's very lime green (bright!)

Sure you can make "lime green grass" and load it up onto Marketplace.....but really, how many people do you think are going to use the search term "lime green grass" during a given month? If it somehow reaches double figures, which I very much doubt.....please inform us all.

Yes, there are gazillion (obscure) product terms that could be unique in Marketplace.....those are easy enough to conjure up. I could list "Swedish buffet tables" or "Bowl of flour" or "Egyptian daybed" or "Meditation Pouffe" or "Water well" or "Art Deco Dresser"......those are all items i could list and tons more.......but what's the point if those search terms are unlikely to be searched on by potential consumers?.

Between those above mentioned items...i might be lucky if i got 10 clicks/ views in a given month.....and that's primaraily due to the keywords "Egyptian, Bowl and Art Deco". 

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:


Snow Frostwych wrote:

Asking other merchants why the "right"? Well, you're talking to the wrong people. It's LL you should be hollering at. It's their marketplace & they set the rules.


I'm trying to be clearer about that lately. I do NOT point any fingers at any customer of SL, merchants, free users and even most employees at LL, or bear them ill will. Hard for me to get context and full meaning across in these forums.

It is the leadership and management at LL that I lay every bit of blame on.

Some investors of Yahoo! want to see a new board re-instated because they're botching things horribly.

When I pay these kind of costs and I'm told it's my world, I kind of feel vested in it. And I want top level things to change, that includes getting rid of some board members that allow things to keep getting botched or interject the wrong things into the product.

This stuff we're talking about now can be solved, but someone has to pay attention up there.

 

I'm not bagging on you either but it's my world too & I have invested in it with my time & what I do. So I'm not a premium member, I can't afford dumping that much RL money into a platform that will eventually disappear (and that has nothing to do with freebies/cheapies).

It wasn't that long ago merchants dumped on Eloh Elliot's free skin templates for supposedly killing the skin market....skin makers still going strong aren't they?

The doom of SL will not come from freebies/cheapies, it will be from the lack of performance & fixing current issues of the like.

I will say those that get my freebies & dollarbies are return customers that are very supportive and if it wasn't for the marketplace, I would't have an inworld shop at all or even making content for SL. I'd probably still be making freebies for Poser & Daz Studio 3D models (I kinda miss doing that & I didn't kill off the Daz & Renderosity merchants either).

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

Fair enough, good old sinks in action. Talking about the overall model still though, please don't take it personally.

I pay those as well as tier, premium, etc. That doesn't make me better in any way, it just makes me contribute more to the free model.

But if I sell on the Marketplace, I have to pay those as well as the 5% commission. Another good old sink.

Why the "right" to distribute there? Why the right to distribute at all if you're not concerned with sales? I get that it feels good to share all the content for free, and the company loves nothing more than when you do that, you pay them in one way or another for the priviledge of them making money off of your content.

But where is the justification that it's a god given right to distribute it to as many people as possible?

Before anyone can answer the "why the right" questions you have, you should probably answer the "why do you have any right to dictate" question first. If anything *that is a selfish outlook, not the person who believes they have a right to use their imagination to make the world theirs in whatever way(s) they so choose. As long as they aren't actually harming another or infringing on another's rights in sl, of course.(aka, abiding by the rules).

The whole "why do you think you can give things away" questions seem kinda loaded to me. I have to admit that your posts are coming off terribly pretentious, especially given your recent admissions in here the forums on your own performance as a merchant. The whole pot, kettle, sort of deal....yeah. For every finger you point, there are 3 more pointing right back atcha. At least that's my take. You're definitely not alone in that, I think it's a mistake we all make at some point.(inflated ego maybe? who knows why we do it, but we do, at times). I am guessing that's just a poor interpretation of what it is you're trying to say on my end. But I thought I should be honest and let you know that it's really reading something terrible. Hopefully, it's not intended to. (I can't imagine why any merchant would want to bite off the hand that feeds them, lol)

I'm one of those people who feels "entitled" to giving away that which I create. As a matter of fact, I give away things that compliment *your* product line ;) (and not just on marketplace either) I've been doing it since long before you even owned the product, and frankly don't intend to stop anytime soon. It's a need, and I fill it, end of story. I have just as much right to give those products away, as I do to sell them (and one would think you wouldn't judge so harshly since they DO compliment something you want to market to the masses, no?) A lot of people create things that compliment other creators, well, stuff. I don't understand this whole  "OMG nooooo, don't giiiiiive it away" stance people have. But I am even more perplexed by the folks who have dozens, maybe even hundreds, of other merchants who both sell AND give away items that compliment theirs. If anything, we should be helping each other, imo. When what we make compliments something else people likely have, I don't see why we would want to shoot down that other merchant. I mean I guess if we were in direct competition, perhaps(well I'd understand the mindset, still wouldn't agree, but understand), but, that's not always the case. A lot of freebie items out there in the world compliment something else, or fill a need that someone else hasn't filled yet.

I should probably read the rest of the thread before replying, guess you struck a nerve though, haha.

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Rene Erlanger wrote:


Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

I've got about 3000 combinations of product that are not listed on marketplace.  I'm not really sure what your number has to do with anything.  If I have some time tomorrow, I might just make some lime green glass stuff and get that stuff up.  Or a Holy Cow Sofa.  Maybe someone will beat me to the punch.  If so, High Fives.

I'm luvin' that Holy Cow Catsuit.  I didn't want one of those yesterday, but I sure want one now.  Not sure if I can wear it in the store, though.

There's still place for
ANY ITEM IMAGINEABLE. 

Please stop telling all of these merchants that the market is saturated and untouchable.  That is simply not true.  Not even close.  Where the heck is the lime green glass?

"Not every In-world Merchant lists their products on Marketplace"

If they want to make some money, why the heck don't they have stuff listed?   Huh?

I pointed it out, because one could likely find lime-green grass in-world....infact i have one such terrain texture....it's very lime green (bright!)

Sure you can make "lime green grass" and load it up onto Marketplace.....but really, how many people do you think are going to use the search term "lime green grass" during a given month? If it somehow reaches double figures, which I very much doubt.....please inform us all.

Yes, there are gazillion
(obscure
) product terms that could be unique in Marketplace.....those are easy enough to conjure up. I could list "Swedish buffet tables" or "Bowl of flour" or "Egyptian daybed" or "Meditation Pouffe" or "Water well" or "Art Deco Dresser"......those are all items i could list and tons more.......but what's the point if those search terms are unlikely to be searched on by potential consumers?.

Between those above mentioned items...i might be lucky if i got 10 clicks/ views in a given month.....and that's primaraily due to the keywords "Egyptian, Bowl and Art Deco". 

Thanks Rene. I didn't get it either.

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Snow Frostwych wrote:


Dartagan Shepherd wrote:


Snow Frostwych wrote:

Asking other merchants why the "right"? Well, you're talking to the wrong people. It's LL you should be hollering at. It's their marketplace & they set the rules.


I'm trying to be clearer about that lately. I do NOT point any fingers at any customer of SL, merchants, free users and even most employees at LL, or bear them ill will. Hard for me to get context and full meaning across in these forums.

It is the leadership and management at LL that I lay every bit of blame on.

Some investors of Yahoo! want to see a new board re-instated because they're botching things horribly.

When I pay these kind of costs and I'm told it's my world, I kind of feel vested in it. And I want top level things to change, that includes getting rid of some board members that allow things to keep getting botched or interject the wrong things into the product.

This stuff we're talking about now can be solved, but someone has to pay attention up there.

 

 

It wasn't that long ago merchants dumped on Eloh Elliot's free skin templates for supposedly killing the skin market....skin makers still going strong aren't they?


Skin prices dropped about 75% because the market flooded with quality skins, which is good for the consumer but not good if you happened to be one of those creators making your own skins from scratch.

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

Yes, I know Rene, sorry, just couldn't remember where you were from.  The way some people talk around here, it's like they don't have a clue what's going on with any economy.  Have to assume they are sheltered -  not really sure where that is, though.

I don't care about IMVU.  I did not set up there.  No reason to.  I've got an etsy, ebay, and brick and mortar biz going on, and you know which one shows the most promise?  Second Life.  Even with all of it's current issues.

If you're so enamored with IMVU, then get your azz over there.  I don't see what the issue is.  And if you can't handle a smidgin' of competition, then you better do it now.

Merchants are undercutting each other in every other venue I'm selling in.  Big Time.  Not sure what you're trying to get at there.

Freebies are an excellent marketing tool.

You will probably do best if you take your marketing outside of world.  Plenty of experimentation and observation to determine that.

Did you ever come up with some straighforward examples of some freebies killing some businesses?  on marketplace?  I sure can't find one searching random keywords.

Well IMVU is 3D VW environment just like Second Life.....I want to destroy this argument and the necessity for having to have an abundance of freebies......and show you that a rival VW platform can grow and grow and grow....during a RL recessionary period without the additional inducements of freebies. (I really get tired of reading such nonsense.....SL did just fine during 2004 to 2007 without the grid being flooded with freebies)

The proof is in the pudding, 900 Estate sims less in Jan 2012 compared to Jan 2011 a loss of 2.5 Mill USD tiers for 2012.....a good percentage of those 900 sims would have been commerical. You yourself even downsized....take a look at the state of some of those Mainland continents !  This is culmination of zero growth to the SL grid during the last 3 years,, increased Merchants pool, less consumers and 3 years of freebies, dollarbies, Midnight Mania, Hunts ...all coming together. (Freebies is just one contributory factor...but not the sole reason)

I don't have to join IMVU...i'm just pointing out some harsh realities.....you're the one that had to downsize your SL land holdings  to remain profitable.....I didn't have to,... so let's not start getting all personal!

 

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Question for Rene.....

Does IMVU sell land & have tier? I have no idea about IMVU. The only thing I remember about it were ads for it at a pixel doll site I used to make pixel dolls for & moderate.

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Not sure how it's getting personal - you made a great plug for IMVU - I told you to get your azz over there, so you can start making some money before heavy competition sets in.  Sounds like some competition rattles you a bit.

I downsized in physical world, when the web commerce started.  It would have been incredibly stupid, not to.  Everyone started shopping on the web. The folks that thought they could keep a fancy little downtown store with outrageous overhead, well I think most went under big time.

I love SL because it's like an incubator.  Much less financial risk here, to test things out.  I'm testing now, and it's working great - had an awesome weekend in the store. 

 

 

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

As soon as you become a paying member in IMVU you get freebies thrown at you all the time. Not directly by merchants, but by IMVU.

LL could use the head of marketing from IMVU. IMVU didn't grow because the have a better or more easy product then SL, IMVU is far behind SL. They just know better how to attrack people and have better strategies to make people return and stay.


Yes, IMVU provides freebies to it's members....but so does LL through it's Library folders. I would not say bombarded as IMVU main income is really from it's Catalog shopping site.....so no way would they damage that "golden goose"

I stated that IMVU is an inferior product to Second life.....that's what makes the situation all the more laughable.

IMVU grew because the spent tons of marketing & advertising dollars on website campaigns since 2008, before the recession began. It never let up.....and that's the main reason why it grew by nearly 400%. In 2008 IMVU had less peak logins than SL.....now it has over twice our number. Their Management did a great job growing that platform.

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Where are the Abundance of Freebies on the marketplace?

I've asked you that several times - give me examples of a keyword where every single item on the first page of search is dominated by freebies.  That still won't prove anything , just suggests that market is not the best one to compete in, if you have no drive and no gumption and no marketing in place.  Or it suggests that you should use other keywords. 

You're using that for your argument, over and over again. 

Where is it?

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

To all of it, but especially this ... bingo.

They're still misfiring on startup mentality and overly complex models when in any other industry but tech, it would be an amateur mistake to apply overly complex business models to customers with a lemon-aid stand model.

I learned this literally at 16 years old.

Had they kept it simple with land and scaled around that, and focused on the core product, we'd still be growing like IMVU.

But no, give it to a bunch of employees and tell them to be creative. It's creative, all right.

And declining.

 

You said it!

I find it a crying shame really....it's a case of missed opportunities....I believe Second Life could have been so much more than what it has ended up.

It really is a superior product than say IMVU......yet look at the growth curves of both them....its not like we have to pay a subscription fee to join Second life (like for WOW).....it's free to join.

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OK, after reading a few things about IMVU, comparing their growth to SL is not quite right.

For one, they do not have "land" or "tier", they sell (for lack of a better term) "chat" environments, rooms and such. Not really someplace you can explore like in SL. Since there is not any "land" needing rented or tier paid on, merchants have no "land" cost.

No land, no inworld store, no prims needed, just items in the IMVU catalog. Which means cost of doing business in IMVU is much less than SL.

Two, their platform is web-based. No viewer required to download which makes it easier to use.

All in all, IMVU is mainly virtual chat. I can see it appealing more to potential users since it's easier, cheaper, & less complicated.

What'scomplicated is their credit system. I read intructions on how to become a "developer" and that looks like it more hassle than it's worth.

Honestly, I don't think comparing the two makes much sense as the only thing in common is VR & avatar customization. The platforms & purposes are totally different.

Now comparing marketing, yeah SL sucks, no one will argue that.

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Wow Mickey.... earlier in this thread you asked / wondered why so many Merchants are grumpy which is ironic because in another thread OPed by Chelsea, you were the Queen of the "Angered" grumpies no matter what logic or direction or ideas came up in the thread.

Now you are the GRUMPY here and based on narrow minded logic on macro economics of how pricing works in an economy - based on some of your resposes to Rene.

I am sure everyone in this world is just as aware of the terrible economic situation that is continues to grip many large sectors of the world - including many parts of the US.  As Rene mentioned, as bad as it is in the USA and the hardships for many Americans personally, I dont think you have much of a clue how bad it is in many parts of Europe where the economy is so bad that entire countries are riding a razor's edge from being bankrupted - not just people - COUNTRIES!

So you can stop the harping to everyone that know more than you that the world economies is hurting. We know.

That besing said, your logic suggests that the easy solution is for all businesses to simply drop the prices of all their products - even if its to the bone - as long as it helps the needy?  So tying your farmer giving Tomatos away free because it helps and it dont hurt wallmart... as Rene said, if a large group of farmers could all decide to give away their tomatos for free, do you think that will help the agriculture community and all those other tomato growers that feel it is important to at least get their costs out of growing them and bringing them to the market?

If all business drop their prices to below their costs or be real generous and give stuff away for free, I am sure all Wallmart shoppers would be very happy for a couple weeks.  That is until they lose their own job at the plant that made the products that now went bankrupt because Mickey wanted them to give away their products.  Your "drop the prices" might be a great help for a couple weeks when the un-employed worker now has even less chance at a job since these business cannot afford to grow - they are too busy going bankrupt.

Business exist to make a profit. PERIOD!  Any business - even ones in virtual worlds or selling things online.  If they have any other reason - they are not a business.  And yes - this is true for even most of the FREEBIE creator / sellers in SL.  They are only giving their content away because it basically costs them EXTREMELY little or nothing to create (please dont tell me that 10L upload charges are a cost anyone would care about $0.04).  If these same Freebie creators had legit hard RL costs for producing the content they give away - i.e. if it magically cost $2.00US for every Sculpty Stairway that was sold, I can assure you that the days of the SL FREEBIES would be GONE!

The problem in SL is that the virtual world has relatively little RL costs to produce (unless you are a merchant with a serious investment inworld and/or advertising).  A freebie creator makes an item like a sculpty staircase for maybe $50L and throws it up on MArketplace that charges no fixed price to list and has no additional cost per unit sold. 

As frustrating as it is to try to run a business in SL and do what most businesses do - earn a profit - the reality is that the SL economy has a fundamental flaw in that the Cost of Manufacturing and distribution is extremely low for businesses and near zero for freebie makers.  Since the COST of a product dictates the minimum price of a product and in SL the cost is near zero - sadly this opens the door for the economy to eventually gravitate to a FREEBIE ECONOMY.

Go back to medieval times... the Barter system.  Mickey can make and give away her tomatos and hopefully the other creator (Merchant will be a role not needed in SL in the future) will give her a prefab home or a sculpted rock in return.

This is the world Mickey and others in this thread wanna see.

This is the type of economy Mickey you want to see in the US as well?  Seems like a simply life at least.  Start growing your tomatos Mickey. :)

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

Wow - sounds like you're missing some major opportunities there, Rene. 

How do you make it on the other retail sites without paying attention to keywords?

As you well know...i always do well on major keywords in the In-world search system....no difference now, even with their new OS Lucene Search engine. I have a good strategy for that.......but the traffic has moved on...it's now in the Marketplace Search Engine.

When I left SL in March 2011, it was still very good in driving traffic through In-world Search......I still have tons of top positions, but the traffic has dropped by about 50%.....which tells me they've moved over to Marketplace. Therefore i now focus only on popular keywords and use less and less secondaries.....no point anymore! (in terms of traffic arriving at  shop from TPs)

Marketplace uses the same Search Engine but uses different criteria to rank.......but it wouldn't take long to figure it out!

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Oh, good grief, I am NOT Grumpy!

I'm sitting here laughing my ass off at some of the comments Rene is making!

Where do you get Grumpy?

That's not even close.

I'll tell you what...I'm pumped!  I'm comin' back here next week and going to bust some stuff out, because it looks like a bunch of folks are sittin' on their asses!

I'm not even going to address your stuff. 

I'm totally disappointed in you.  Totally.  And embarassed.  Big Time.

That ain't grumpy.  Ya'll sound like the grumpy ones.  I think you're scared shizless with no plan.

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Snow Frostwych wrote:

It wasn't that long ago merchants dumped on Eloh Elliot's free skin templates for supposedly killing the skin market....skin makers still going strong aren't they?


You can count on one hand how many Skin creators still make serious amount of sales (yes, they cut their prices also).....I could probably name them.

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Ohh and one final thought on all those POOR AVATARS in SL that freebie creators are helping.  They are poor for all the reasons that were mentioned... how bad the real life economy is and they cant afford to buy that $1000L nice ballroom dress for the ball, or afford a nice skin to look good, or the better sculpted parts for their home....

If these Avatars / people behind the avatars are so poor not to pay the high gouged prices by all those eveil Merchants of SL, how are they paying for their ISP to be on SL?  Or the computer that gets them on SL?  Or heck even the power to run the computer that gets them on SL?  IF life is so hard in their RL world - which I am sure it is - then forget about shedding a tear because you cannot get a decent avatar skin for free.  You should be wondering why you are on SL in the first place.  As someone here seems to call SL....  Why are they even playing a game as opposed to saving it to keep their RL going?

So as much as some of you are throwing this "ohhh dont shed a tear for the SL businesses that are losing profits or even going under because of the impacts of the SL freebie economy"... you should also stop using the lame excuse that "I create freebies to help the poor troddened Avatars that cant afford to buy things in SL".

 

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