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Fubar Constantine

new collars should be banned from the game and break many laws in most countries

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Persephone Emerald wrote:

Jeanne:

"I steal collars. The first time I stole one I was just a newbie and didn't really know about collars & RLV. When this doofy dom guy put one on me, I ~poofed~ before the RLV got activated and ended up with it in my inv and he had no control over it. Once I realized I could do that, I started doing it for a hobby. Now I have a collection of the stupid things. LoL Sometimes I wear them as trophies."

 

Persephone:

I find this tactic hilarious. I have no problem with adults acting out their fantasies in SL or RL, as long as everything done is ultimately consensual. Having been briefly involved in the RL BDSM scene, I can attest that some people enjoy letting others have control over them, myself included to some degree. Personally, though, I'm far from an "ideal submissive", because I never give up all my control. I'd be the kind to try to manipulate my Dominant if he annoyed me or pissed me off. I've also seen male Doms in SL & RL who I think deserve to be manipulated, mocked & taught some humility.

 

LoL Persephone.Here's the story of me stealing that first collar:


http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Who-was-your-first-benefactor-Thank-you-for-helping-me-as-a/m-p/1114273#M27846

Jeanne

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Rather than make several comments i have made this all one

ive also had one of those simple hug animation style devices that not only took control of me but allowed the other person to teleport anywhere i went. That one was reported and the person using it was banned from many sims as it was a total sexual griefing device. And its quite easy for someone to use with tracking huds which may be something as simple as trying to attach something to your avatar or droping something on the sim there is many ways and Its not hard for a script to let out your location or even have teleport control i was new in game at the time and i know lindon does remove these style of scripted objects cos i myself have had stuff removed from game with comments from lindons about it breaking TOS and being removed from game and no i nolonger have those emails from linden labs

And above about the the Australian Censorship battle i have 50 page documents i could send but have no desire too and as you probably have never listened to an australian political battle you have no idea what is in them. Briefly It wasnt just about the sex cos there was many games that there was many other games which still allowed it consenting sex and some would say are far worse than secondlife and was on the allow list.

And il try and be clear i dont want to take away your rights. But technically speaking the TOS covers sl against law suits aswell but i think they should be respective of them aswell. If you are in a country that allows bdsm and so is the other party thats fine you use them. But technically speaking the extent of some of the control and slavism is quite illegal in allot of places in the world go and search through the United States Laws and see if you can find one that states something as simple as anyform of initiation testing wether conecentng or else otherwise is prosecutable BDSM goes allot further than this. SO if you want to use BDSM check your laws in your state and country and the other parties too. AND Then if you find suitable accepting partners go ahead and use them.i really couldnt care just think there should be strong guidlines protecting people from there use in game I love sl (and didnt appreciate it being said that i wanted to take away rights so) and was commenting only about there extent of control and its not just as simple as logging out for many people as sad as it may sound they dont find that all that easy. So many people are making new avies to get away from it thats fine but doesnt allways seem right why should they have to. I think guidelines should be stronger on them I dont want to see sl shut down i enjoy it too much. But if they go bad when prosecutions become abundant im not sure it would do aswell as it allways have done

Virtual worlds altho are virtual and can allways be logged out of should have controls too

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I'm still trying to find where I said you were trying to take away anyone's rights. I'm guessing maybe that bit was in response to someone else, although I have to say, I agree with them.

Here's the thing. BDSM is not illegal in my country. BDSM means Bondage/Discipline, Dominance/Submission, and Sadomasochism. None of those things in and of themselves are illegal where I am from as long as they occur between consenting adult parties. Yes, the more extreme forms are. Slavery is certainly illegal, as generally in slavery at least one party is unwilling. You have to remember that in SL, BDSM and slavery are roleplay. It is very difficult to force someone to do anything in SL that they don't want to do, because of the previously mentioned red X. Now, if someone chooses not to use that out, for whatever reason, that is personal choice. The fact is, it is that easy. Some people may not want to use that option, may choose not to do so, but in the end that is their choice and no one can be responsible for it but them.

If you are in a country that does not allow virtual representations of BDSM, it is your personal repsonsibility not to participate in it. I'll admit it can be difficult to avoid entirely, but you certainly are not required to visit BDSM sims or engage in BDSM play. However, again, that's a matter of personal responsibility, not the responsibility of LL.

I realize that slavery is against the law. I haven't yet see anything, at least relating to my country, that says virtual roleplay of slavery between consenting parties is illegal. Then again, I'm in the U.S. We're pretty against censorship over here. You're right in saying that I've never seen an Australian political debate. I tend not to watch American political debates either, because they bore me. I resent the implication that I wouldn't understand, however, as I in general consider myself to be an intelligent person who is capable of understanding things and of researching things she doesn't understand.

In any case, I can't say I'm willing to have my rights in SL restricted or stripped away. And that is what you're talking about, whether or not you wish to admit it. To keep SL in your country, you want LL to tighten up and censor SL. I feel for you. I love SL, and wouldn't want to be forced to leave by the government, but you have to remember that any kind of additional restrictions on SL affect all of its residents. Without documentation, all I can say is that I disagree with LL adding restrictions for all countries to appease the residents of one.  

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I am glad this issue has been brought up and explained so others are aware of possible issues and to be very very cautious about granting any type of permissions to others.

Since having information sent to me on this questionable product, I have been greatly concerned what the impact might be to not only established residents but new folks.  It would only take one dufus with said product to cause alot of PR issues for LL, especially if it were used on residents that are underage. 

I don't wish to discourage anyone's creativity or,  tell them what they can and cannot sell, but if it takes advantage of a known exploit and one where you will have no control or to opt out, it can't be a good thing.  With collars and RLV, the person wearing it is aware and what the consequences could be before they enable the option.  Ultimately, they can chose to shut/turn RLV off....with this product, once permission is given  that's it....no further choices. You are at the person's mercy for good or bad.

This is something I think LL needs to examine and make a determination if it violates the TOS or not. If LL is wise, they will do this quickly before something happens and things get out of hand like they did with Red Zone issue.

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I agree that the product is highly undesirable, and I'd certainly encourage anyone who has one used on them to AR the person responsible.   

But I'm not sure how great a threat this is in practice -- as I said, these things have been around for as long as I have, and probably longer (I remember seeing them, or something very similar, in xstreet, as then it was, soon after I started) but I've very rarely heard about them actually being used on people malicously.   

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Isn't it their own fault, if they agree to something like this? Every adult should be so able to get themself some informations before jumping into any kind of roleplay, relationship and especially everything that has to do with bdsm. And don't come with the minors now! If they lie about their age an visit adult sims....well nobody here is their babysitter.

And after all, it isn't like people were running around and put a collar on everyone who can't teleport away fast enough. :matte-motes-little-laugh:

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The two people I know who've had this kind of thing used on them maliciously encountered it in completely vanilla settings -- both times people they met at parties, one of whom got his victim to agree to let the device have PERMISSION_TRIGGER_ANIMATION by giving her a hug and the other who invited her victim to dance on what she said was her chim.  Both times it was a nasty practical joke rather than anything else, but the victims were really upset because it's one of the few exploits that you really can't do anything about other than avoid the person who's done it.    

 

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Hmm, yes if it is used, or more to say abused, that way there should be consequenzes. But I'm not sure, if we can blame the creator for it. The true problem is maybe, that the controll can be taken with such hidden requests.

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According to the creator in one of the comments made on a negative review, it's the fault of the person who accepts the animation request for accepting something from an object with that name (which does, admittedly, sound ominous). According to the creator, the message recieved is something along the lines of "[object name] would like permission to animate your avatar." Supposedly, it doesn't have anything that allows the object name to be changed or hidden. I don't know the truth of this, having not purchased or been victimized by it.

My own opinion started as "ban the people who use it maliciously, not the object itself or its creator" but has changed a bit. I don't think the creator should be banned, but based (partially) on the creator's attitude towards criticism and towards the object in general (which seems to be "Well, I said not to use it as a griefing tool (even though the description gives a perfect example of how to do so) - it's just a funny prank lol") and on the attitudes of those who reviewed on the marketplace (with one exception, "Oh how cool I love having so much power over others thanks for letting me control people by force man it's awesome!!!"), I do think think the HUD itself should be banned. The potential for griefing is very, very high, and I can't see that it's good for much else. Or at least, nothing that another object can't do without such a heavy potential for misuse.

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ppl always been making stuff that take advantage of bugs. linden always say that ppl should not buy anything that does that. they will fix the bug eventually and the fix will probly break whatever the thing is

not that some ppl listen to linden when they say that. was a whole wepons industry built on bugs and holes and exploits in olden days. when linden fix all them was lots of tears from ppl who had bought all them things. linden just shrug and go oh well nvm

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This is really overblown and lacking sense...

1. The collars are used in a BDSM environment. And BDSM is by definition a mutual consented situation between 2 adults. You can like it or not, but that is a question of taste.

2. Collars only work as long as you activate RLV. No RLV, no collar. If you are lock in, just deactivate RLV, relog and remove the collar. So simple.

3. Any way to forbid or punish creators or users would be against the freedom of expression, which is one of the basic laws in most of our countries (so far). It is like to ban the wheel because bank robbers run away in cars that use wheels...

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My question, exactly. And also, WHY was it blocked in those countries? Because of the BDSM you're upset about, Fubar, or because of other issues?

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Fubar Constantine wrote:

And above about the the Australian Censorship battle i have 50 page documents i could send but have no desire too and as you probably have never listened to an australian political battle you have no idea what is in them. Briefly It wasnt just about the sex cos there was many games that there was many other games which still allowed it consenting sex and some would say are far worse than secondlife and was on the allow list.


Just a few facts from a fellow Australian....The Australian government has never threatened to ban Second Life and has no plans to do so.  In fact several government departments and universities funded by the government have private islands, such as the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (our version of the BBC for those not from Australia).  Would the government really allow its departments to be spending money on SL, if they thought it should or would be banned?

However there was a lot of scare mongering over the issue for a several resons:

First it is not possible to have a non-physical product classified, meaning that if a game did  not come on a CD or DVD, it was not able to receive a classification.  However this is not the same as being banned or refused classification, it simply means that second life does not need to be classified.  In addition, Second Life does not meet the definition of a game in the Offlice of Film and Literature Classification guidelines, so even if it was sold in shops on a CD or DVD, it still would not require classification.

Second there is no R18+ rating for games, due to lack of agreement among the state and federal attorney generals, however there is now a proposed draft of the Act that introduces a R18+ rating, but again this has no effect on SL as it does not require classifcation, as I explained above.

The third reason is the propsed internet censorship laws, which have not even been introduced into parliment and are already opposed by many, including the Greens and Conservatives, which means it will not pass in the Senate.  While this might theoretically impact on second life, technically they only block a very specific part of the web (http requests on port 80 to a specific web address) and from what i gather from those more technically knowledgable than myself, it is not possible to block second life using this method, as it uses different ports and protocols, compared to a web page or browser.

There is no block or allow list for games, as the internet censorship proposal has not not even been put to parliment and looks like it won't any time soon, plus only applies to a web pages, not online games, IRC, instant messagaing, email or any other method of communication on the net.  On the other hand, if you are referring to games refused classification because there is no R18+ rating, then as I explained that is likely to change as soon as the attorney generals can agree, but was never going to effect Second Life, as I explained above.

Finally, after everyone panicked years ago and got worried that SL might be banned, someone actually did the sensible thing and wrote to the Minister concernerd, who confirmed in writing that there was no plans for SL to be banned, which Linden Lab confirmed.

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Ethaniel Morrisey wrote:


Fubar Constantine wrote:

And above about the the Australian Censorship battle i have 50 page documents i could send but have no desire too and as you probably have never listened to an australian political battle you have no idea what is in them. Briefly It wasnt just about the sex cos there was many games that there was many other games which still allowed it consenting sex and some would say are far worse than secondlife and was on the allow list.


Just a few facts from a fellow Australian....The Australian government has never threatened to ban Second Life and has no plans to do so.  In fact several government departments and universities funded by the government have private islands, such as the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (our version of the BBC for those not from Australia).  Would the government really allow its departments to be spending money on SL, if they thought it should or would be banned?

However there was a lot of scare mongering over the issue for a several resons
:

First it is not possible to have a non-physical product classified, meaning that if a game did  not come on a CD or DVD, it was not able to receive a classification.  However this is not the same as being banned or refused classification, it simply means that second life does not need to be classified.  In addition, Second Life does not meet the definition of a game in the Offlice of Film and Literature Classification guidelines, so even if it was sold in shops on a CD or DVD, it still would not require classification.

Second there is no R18+ rating for games, due to lack of agreement among the state and federal attorney generals, however there is now a proposed draft of the Act that introduces a R18+ rating, but again this has no effect on SL as it does not require classifcation, as I explained above.

The third reason is the propsed internet censorship laws, which have not even been introduced into parliment and are already opposed by many, including the Greens and Conservatives, which means it will not pass in the Senate.  While this might theoretically impact on second life, technically they only block a very specific part of the web (http requests on port 80 to a specific web address) and from what i gather from those more technically knowledgable than myself, it is not possible to block second life using this method, as it uses different ports and protocols, compared to a web page or browser.

There is no block or allow list for games, as the internet censorship proposal has not not even been put to parliment and looks like it won't any time soon, plus only applies to a web pages, not online games, IRC, instant messagaing, email or any other method of communication on the net.  On the other hand, if you are referring to games refused classification because there is no R18+ rating, then as I explained that is likely to change as soon as the attorney generals can agree, but was never going to effect Second Life, as I explained above.

Finally, after everyone panicked years ago and got worried that SL might be banned, someone actually did the sensible thing and wrote to the Minister concernerd, who confirmed in writing that there was no plans for SL to be banned, which Linden Lab confirmed.

Thank you Ethaniiel

While I am not an Aussie, I do have many friends from Down Under and I remember well the flurry of concerns over all this.  I also did some reading on it and if any one is interested there is some good basic info on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Australia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Australia

Concerning  Fubar's claim that this 'new collar' can not be detached I have asked the experts in the LSL sub forum if it were possible and so far the answer is NO.

IF there is a hack by which this can be accomplished then I would highly suggest that Fubar start a JIRA concerning this with specific details, that is the reproduce-able evidence.  Vague, "I heard such and such," does not work in the JIRA.  The JIRA would need to be about the HACK itself because that would be the concern, that ANY OBJECT could be permanently attached to an Avatar.  The Collar could be referenced as an example.

While I may sympathize with Fubar's concern that SL could get banned in Australia, however remote or unlikely that may be right now because of its Adult content, how this Collar could result in SL being banned over any other Collar is a jump in logic that makes no sense. 

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New collars may come close to violating TOS but as for control of a submissive in an honest BDSM relationship those controls should be agreed upon by both the Dominate and the submissive. Any Dominate worth their salt understands two things. 1. Submission is a gift and should be treasured. 2. The mantra of the BDSM community is Safe Sane and Consensual. BDSM isn't about being mean it is a different way of loving someone. With that said, a submissive has the right to say "hey ok that's enough" or "sorry I am not into that." Of course most things can be avoided by following the mantra and cherishing the gift of submission.

To end this let me say that new collars or old collars are only as restrictive as the well educated couple allow them to be.

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You know, Lindal, I don't think that calling the OP an "obvious troll" is very nice. Fubar expressed a legitimate concern and this brought out a serious exploit for discussion and for people to be made aware of. The thread then went on to an interesting discussion of Australian politics. It's so easy to just dismiss anyone you may happen to disagree with by calling them a "troll." We should all strive to make these fora a less hostile place.

Jeanne

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vaseline.jpg


JeanneAnne wrote:

You know, Lindal, I don't think that calling the OP an "obvious troll" is very nice. Fubar expressed a legitimate concern and this brought out a serious exploit for discussion and for people to be made aware of. The thread then went on to an interesting discussion of Australian politics. It's so easy to just dismiss anyone you may happen to disagree with by calling them a "troll." We should all strive to make these fora a less hostile place.

Jeanne

I will admit I seriously thought what Lindal said.  Reading Fubar's comments I was seriously wondering if I needed his product from the MP.

A thread about an exploit that doesn't exist about political issues that were resolved ages ago with no documentation and wild claims. 

Oh well.  Such is the way of Forums on the Internet. 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

You know, Lindal, I don't think that calling the OP an "obvious troll" is very nice. Fubar expressed a legitimate concern and this brought out a serious exploit for discussion and for people to be made aware of. The thread then went on to an interesting discussion of Australian politics. It's so easy to just dismiss anyone you may happen to disagree with by calling them a "troll." We should all strive to make these fora a less hostile place.

Jeanne

I will admit I seriously thought what Lindal said.  Reading Fubar's comments I was seriously wondering if I needed his product from the MP.

A thread about an exploit that doesn't exist about political issues that were resolved ages ago with no documentation and wild claims. 

Oh well.  Such is the way of Forums on the Internet. 

If the exploit in question doesn't exist, what's this all about:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13228?

Jeanne

 

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

You know, Lindal, I don't think that calling the OP an "obvious troll" is very nice. Fubar expressed a legitimate concern and this brought out a serious exploit for discussion and for people to be made aware of. The thread then went on to an interesting discussion of Australian politics. It's so easy to just dismiss anyone you may happen to disagree with by calling them a "troll." We should all strive to make these fora a less hostile place.

Jeanne

I will admit I seriously thought what Lindal said.  Reading Fubar's comments I was seriously wondering if I needed his product from the MP.

A thread about an exploit that doesn't exist about political issues that were resolved ages ago with no documentation and wild claims. 

Oh well.  Such is the way of Forums on the Internet. 

If the exploit in question doesn't exist, what's this all about:

Jeanne

 

That JIRA covers a different issue than what the OP claimed.

We were fully aware of the irrevocable permission and that has been covered in other threads and links to discussions concerning that were provided.

There is a related JIRA in which I commented.  https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1006

The OP claimed there was a COLLAR that once worn could not be removed.

The OP claimed it was a NEW COLLAR, not the old issue. 

While the OP did not directly claim that this NEW COLLAR could be used to control IM's as can be done with some collars and RLV by bringing it up they inferred it. IM's can not be controlled via the script in question.  (OP simply stated they felt this was 'sick')

It was also asked and answered in the scripting forum whether this script could be used to force someone to wear an object and the answer is "no."

So yes, I gave serious consideration to this thread being just a troll by someone claiming that they had found the doomsday machine in SL.

For someone to infer they had done all kinds of research with out providing any of the supporting evidence is a good way to open one's self up to criticism.

 

 

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

You know, Lindal, I don't think that calling the OP an "obvious troll" is very nice. Fubar expressed a legitimate concern and this brought out a serious exploit for discussion and for people to be made aware of. The thread then went on to an interesting discussion of Australian politics. It's so easy to just dismiss anyone you may happen to disagree with by calling them a "troll." We should all strive to make these fora a less hostile place.

Jeanne

I will admit I seriously thought what Lindal said.  Reading Fubar's comments I was seriously wondering if I needed his product from the MP.

A thread about an exploit that doesn't exist about political issues that were resolved ages ago with no documentation and wild claims. 

Oh well.  Such is the way of Forums on the Internet. 

If the exploit in question doesn't exist, what's this all about:

Jeanne

 

That JIRA covers a different issue than what the OP claimed.

We were fully aware of the irrevocable permission and that has been covered in other threads and links to discussions concerning that were provided.

There is a related JIRA in which I commented. 

The OP claimed there was a COLLAR that once worn could not be removed.

The OP claimed it was a NEW COLLAR, not the old issue. 

While the OP did not directly claim that this NEW COLLAR could be used to control IM's as can be done with some collars and RLV by bringing it up they inferred it. IM's can not be controlled via the script in question.  (OP simply stated they felt this was 'sick')

It was also asked and answered in the scripting forum whether this script could be used to force someone to wear an object and the answer is "no."

So yes, I gave serious consideration to this thread being just a troll by someone claiming that they had found the doomsday machine in SL.

For someone to infer they had done all kinds of research with out providing any of the supporting evidence is a good way to open one's self up to criticism.

 

 

 

Ok Perrie, thank you for the clarification.

Seems to me that the OP may be a bit confused about the issue (as am I). That doesn't make Fubar a "troll" tho.

There may not be any doomsday machine in SL but using a known exploit to trick people into granting irrevocable permission and the JLU hacking IP addies from media streams, etc., come close enuf to make some people nervous.

Jeanne

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

Ok Perrie, thank you for the clarification.

Seems to me that the OP may be a bit confused about the issue (as am I). That doesn't make Fubar a "troll" tho.

There may not be any doomsday machine in SL but using a known exploit to trick people into granting irrevocable permission and the JLU hacking IP addies from media streams, etc., come close enuf to make some people nervous.

Jeanne

I am concerned about and don't like the idea of this irrevocable permission being out there in the wild either.  As I have stated in other threads we used to hear from time to time people complaining in the Forums about weird things happening to them and we used to discount it as "not possible" because we were unaware of this function.

But I take exception to people who just come and 'cry wolf.'  Give us some documentation.  Don't send us on wild goose chases.  To me it is no different than people who spread false virus warnings.  Maybe they remotely get people concerned about their internet security but deleting your system32 folder does no good.

It is like I have said to many a friend who has forwarded me these warnings, "Why are you trying to scare your grandparents off of the internet?"  Unless of course you don't want your grandparents to know what you are doing.

Personally, I'd be really pissed if someone used this exploit on me.  So I can understand the emotional issues involved.  But we need to approach the problem and deal with it logically and with facts.

Thanks

Perrie

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