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Fubar Constantine

new collars should be banned from the game and break many laws in most countries

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The new collars have all sorts of control for starters when they are placed on there is noway to take them off if the master decides to go offline for good. (support helps)

 

And taking total control of even ims is just plain sick

 

Lets just lock up the person and not let them go to the toilet so they wee themselves

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Secondlife was blocked in many countries i know

it nearly was blocked from australia too but i sent off many long petitions and large documents that were presented in parliament that saved australia from secondlife ip blocking and it was mostly the bdsm collars that caused the issues so i have fought for the right for people to have secondlife here after many millions were spent so i think they should atleast allow a forum about it but i appreciate your responce thanks

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I'm not sure what "new collars" you're talking about. I'm also not sure exactly what gives you the right to pass judgement about people's personal choices. There are people who enjoy taking total control of others, and people who enjoy having others take total control of them. Collars on SL allow those people to experience that sort of relationship in a "safe" environment.

Your concerns are a touch overblown. Collars require RLVa to work. They also require the user to be inworld. Should a situation get out of control, or should an "owner" leave SL permanently, etc., all the wearer of the collar needs to do is log out, turn off their RLV support in preferences, and log back in. Then remove the collar. Plus, you stated that support is willing to help with this as well.

If you have a problem with these "new collars," don't wear one. Don't make someone else wear one. Leave others to their choices; they have a right to them.

ETA some slight clarification.

ETA2: I've seen collars and other restraints that are capable of taking away someone's ability to IM for quite some time now. It's not something new or unique to these "new collars."

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Freedom of speach (now you want to take away my right)

actually ive come accross collars that the only way to take them off was to turn off viewer settings cos the above didnt work so turning off settings was the only way out which is very hard to explain to someone that is not an experienced and adept at secondlife

And yep i submitted a ticket about it as i beleive this particular one which i wont name here come very close to breaking the terms of TOS that was well over a month ago still aint heard back

And what you didnt seem to understand was i didnt say i was against collars i said the new collar control as im sure it breaks TOS

I have fought hard for australias right for the right to keep sl with so many documents and for so long you have no idea and yes i can name quite a few countries that my research found out about that have banned sl because of the bdsm. So i should be able to voice my opinion on collars that i beleive break TOS

I dont want the designer who made the one i reported down my neck do i. Most of the older collars i feel are fine and i understand why people like them im not that old fashioned LOL but sl is not doing as good as it used to be and there are many other new games popping up so more control of some listed items may help

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Fubar Constantine wrote:

The new collars have all sorts of control for starters when they are placed on there is noway to take them off if the master decides to go offline for good. (support helps)

 

And taking total control of even ims is just plain sick

 

Lets just lock up the person and not let them go to the toilet so they wee themselves

You know, personally, I think all that BDSM stuff is sick. I went along with it for awhile with my last boyfriend just to please him, but then told him I wasn't into all the meanness & control and we broke up over it. Oh well... his loss.

I steal collars. The first time I stole one I was just a newbie and didn't really know about collars & RLV. When this doofy dom guy put one on me, I ~poofed~ before the RLV got activated and ended up with it in my inv and he had no control over it. Once I realized I could do that, I started doing it for a hobby. Now I have a collection of the stupid things. LoL Sometimes I wear them as trophies.

All this said, tho... to each his or her own, I say. If people are into control issues it's their own business, not yours. They can't really hurt one another in SL, can't draw blood, so really... what's the problem?

Jeanne 

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The whole bdsm stuff is nothing I like much, but I don't say its sick...if some people like it and they don't involve people who don't want to, why should I care? And some people here should keep in mind that this is a virtual world, nobody can force someone really to do something. If they don't want it anymore, they can turn off the computer and everything is fine.

Oh and many collars with disabled scripts are really nice accessories. Good to combine with a dress.

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I never said I was trying to take away your right to freedom of speech. Please, don't put words in my mouth. I don't feel that anyone has the right to dismiss and belittle the choices of others. I do feel that you should absolutely have the ability to discuss your issues with this "new collar" - and I should have the ability to debate it with you, if I feel differently than you do.

Turning off what settings? RLVa? That's really the only thing I can think of that can give someone the ability to control anything about someone else's avatar. Which is what I stated in my first post - simply turn off RLVa and relog.

As for violating the TOS (or Community Standards), that pretty much requires that at least one party object. The item in question is a collar. Unless someone is extremely naive, they know what a collar is and what it's for. Presumably, upon purchase of one of these "new collars," one recieves some kind of instructions that say what it is, what it does, and what its capabilites are. The user has full access to this, so if they wear the collar without reading the instructions and then object to how much control can be exerted over them, it's kind of their own fault. (Now, if there are no instructions or the instructions are incomplete or misleading, that's a slightly different story.) I object far more to an object on the market that sends a seemingly innocent request that, once recieved, grants the avatar who sent the request complete control over the one who accepted.

It's important to remember that this is a virtual world. There's a little red X in the corner of the screen at all times, so if someone gets into a situation they can't handle, they can hit that little button and leave that situation. Or, if all else fails, turn off the computer. Problem solved.

I'm of the opinion that it's not the object itself that would violate the TOS, or the creator, but rather any avatar who uses such a device to abuse an unwilling person.

I'm actually quite interested to read about SL being banned for BDSM, specifically. I had heard about issues over ageplay (thus the addition to the TOS forbidding it), but not about BDSM. Do you have any links you could post to articles covering this, or to political action in countries that have banned SL for this? (I did find a link or two about Australia's censorship, stating that SL could potentially be banned there, but it did not seem to link directly to BDSM. Rather, it referred to "X-rated pornography" in general? Please feel free to clarify. Also, what laws - in particular - do these "new collars" break?))

ETA: There are, of course, those that would give the collar to someone without including the instructions. Personally, I'm skeptical about wearing anything given to me by another person if I don't know how it works, particularly something as complex as a scripted collar - but not all are as cynical as I am. Still, we end up back at two points - one, the little X in the corner of the screen and the ability to turn off RLVa; and two, the option to report harassment should one party be or become unwilling to be so heavily controlled and the other party refuse to release their control.

Edited to clarify, because I reread it and it just didn't come out right the first time.

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I agree with you, absolutely. I mentioned this, actually, in my second post. But still, I think it's the users who should be reported for abuse for using the object to harass others, not necessarily the creator. (Although it seems to be a pure griefing tool, that particular item says in the description that it is not intended as such. I have my doubts, but regardless, I don't know that they're necessarily breaking TOS by creating such an object - though that may be subjective. There are many items inworld and on the marketplace that can be used innocently, or as tools for griefing. I'd hate to lose some good things because they have the potential to be used for griefing.)

Perhaps a scripter can chime in at some point with how one might exert that kind of control without the use of RLVa.

Edited for spelling. Geeze, I just can't type today!

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To my knowings, in order for a collar to work that way RLVa in the viewer has to be activated, and that RLVa is only something you'd find in a third party viewer.  You would have to activate it yourself before you started any of these activities in the first place.

With that in mind,  Why are you wanting to infringe upon sexual expression and the rights of others to choose what they want to do by way of their own free-will?  Collars are commonly used by the lifestyle community, and anyone in the community is a consenting adult, I do not quiet understand what you're problem with all of it is.    I'm sure you are a consenting adult with free will, which means you have the will to walk away, say no and go to another sim which is more pleasing to you.    

 

Edit: Also, if there is a hud that someone has mentioned here that does a force collaring that works to the effect of RLVa collars, wouldn't it be easier to report the person for harassment/griefing, followed by muting a derendering their avatars?

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Well put Ariel and I agree.  I have yet to find anything I can't take off.  Even if its RLV, you just turn off RLV or log in on a non-rlv viewer.

I see this a lot and usually around the D/s community. It's your choice to do it or not but one thing I have learned the most in SL is to be acceptable and tolerant of all lifestyle while not passing judgment.

When I first joined I made a good friend and later found out she was really into diapers.  I must tell ya, it was the weirdest thing I had ever heard but over time, I learned more about this fetish and though it's still weird as hell to me, I understand and she is still one of my best SL friends after almost 6 years.

#1 key to success in this truly bizarre but amazing world is to be open minded and acceptable.

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If it's the hud I'm thinking of, it takes advantage of a very old exploit -- jira VWR 13228 explains it --and depends on the fact that, once a script has permission to animate you, it keeps that permission until the script is reset or it takes another set of permissions.   You can't revoke it, it other words.

What this means in practice is, if you take an ordinary hug/kiss attachment and play around with it, you end up with something that, once your unsuspecting victim has given you permission to hug them, can be used to animate them in any way you choose (if they're on the same sim as you) without their having any further say in the matter.

It's nothing to do with RLV; it's to do with the way script permissions work, and everyone is vulnerable to it, no matter what viewer they use.

 

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No, I'm sure that robot we talked about in the Scripting Tips forum took advantage of the fact RLV commands use llOwnerSay, which means if a command comes from an object you own (and if you're wearing it or have just rezzed it, then you must own it) then it gets executed.

Having thought about your description of what happened, I am certain I know how it was scripted (it's hardly rocket science).    All I can say is, if you have RLV turned on, be even more careful than usual about accepting and rezzing items from people you don't know.

This animations exploit is something completely separate.  It's to do with animation permissions, which RLV isn't concerned with.

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Thanks! I was hoping someone would chime in. I'm alaways careful about accepting anything, animation requests included, from people I don't know. I'll be even more cautious in the future.

Is there any way to revoke that permission? Or a script that could be written and dumped into an HUD or object to do so?

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Unfortunately, there's no way you can revoke the permissions.    There's not even an explicit lsl function the person writing the script can use to cancel them.    The script has to be reset, or acquire a new set of permissons.   

You can use "Stop Animating Me," but the person can simply restart the animation.   And, if you're using a third-party viewer that lets you block specific animations, the person can start another one.    

If someone's using one on you, the short-term solution is tp to a different sim, and then use "stop animating me" when you get there, since a script can only animate you if you're on the same sim.

However, the long-term only solution, I'm afraid, is to avoid the person who is using the hud, AR them for harassment and make sure the owners know if someone's using it at a particular establishment -- a lot of Adult sims, at least, are very aware of these huds and ban anyone caught using them.   I know for a fact (since I have a shop there) that anyone caught using one on The Freedom Continent, for example, gets banned from the whole group of sims and a lot more places, too (including anywhere I own).   On the bright side, these devices have been around for as long as I've been in SL (four and a half years) and only two people I actually know have had them used on them, which suggests to me that maybe they're not that widely used.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

If someone's using one on you, the short-term solution is tp to a different sim, and then use "stop animating me" when you get there, since a script can only animate you if you're on the same sim.


I have a question about this Innula, if you don't mind. You say, "a script can only animate you if you're on the same sim." Yet often I will be dancing somewhere and teleport while still dancing and I'll still be dancing when I arrive on a different sim. In fact, sometimes I go to a club where I know there is a favorite dance on the dance ball, animate with that dance, then tp somewhere else where this dance isn't on the ball, just so I can have the dance animation I want. How does this work if a script can only animate you on the same sim?

Jeanne

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Sorry, I should have been clearer about how scripts and animations work.

An animation in SL is a small file (a .bvh file, to be technical) that is played locally on your computer and on those of anyone who can see you.   The lsl command llStartAnimation(animation name) tells the sim to send that file to people's computers, where their cpu and graphics card actually make you appear to move in your and their viewers.   As far as the sim's concerned, you're just standing (or sitting) there.  It knows an animation is playing, and what the uuid is, but it doesn't know what it's making your avatar do (that's why if you and I are dancing and our paths cross, we'll pass through each other like ghosts, but if we're walking, we bump into each other).   The animation can last up to 30 seconds, and then -- depending on how it was set when it was uploaded -- it either stops of its own accord or runs in a continuous loop.

It's very like sound files, in a way.  

I don't quite understand the mechanics of TP-ing but it would appear that if you've got an animation playing when you leave the first sim, the information that it's playing (and, if appropriate, looping) travels with you, along with all the other information about how your avatar should be drawn  when you arrive at the next sim, and the .bvh file gets sent to the computers of people who are there to see your arrival.

So what I meant, and should have said, is that scripts can only start animations -- tell the sim to start sending to people's computers, including yours, the appropriate instructions to make your avatar seem to move in a particular way -- when you and the script are on the same sim.   The script doesn't actually do the animating; it tells the sim to tell your computer to do it, if that makes sense.  

I suppose it's a bit like colouring or texturing prims by script.  I can drop a script into a prim to change the colour or texture (that is, the information the sim sends to everyone's computers to tell them what the prim should look like), but the prim will stay that colour/texture even if I then delete the script.   In the same way, llStartAnimation tells the sim what information it should be sending to people's computers about how you should be moving, and can only do that when it's on the same sim, but after it's sent that initial instruction, the script's done its job.

Does that make sense?

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Sorry, I should have been clearer about how scripts and animations work.

An animation in SL is a small file (a .bvh file, to be technical) that is played locally on your computer and on those of anyone who can see you.   The lsl command llStartAnimation(animation name) tells the sim to send that file to people's computers, where their cpu and graphics card actually make you appear to move in your and their viewers.   As far as the sim's concerned, you're just standing (or sitting) there.  It knows an animation is playing, and what the uuid is, but it doesn't know what it's making your avatar do (that's why if you and I are dancing and our paths cross, we'll pass through each other like ghosts, but if we're walking, we bump into each other).   The animation can last up to 30 seconds, and then -- depending on how it was set when it was uploaded -- it either stops of its own accord or runs in a continuous loop.

It's very like sound files, in a way.  

I don't quite understand the mechanics of TP-ing but it would appear that if you've got an animation playing when you leave the first sim, the information that it's playing (and, if appropriate, looping) travels with you, along with all the other information about how your avatar should be drawn  when you arrive at the next sim, and the .bvh file gets sent to the computers of people who are there to see your arrival.

So what I meant, and should have said, is that scripts can only start animations -- tell the sim to start sending to people's computers, including yours, the appropriate instructions to make your avatar seem to move in a particular way -- when you and the script are on the same sim.   The script doesn't actually do the animating; it tells the sim to tell your computer to do it, if that makes sense.  

I suppose it's a bit like colouring or texturing prims by script.  I can drop a script into a prim to change the colour or texture (that is, the information the sim sends to everyone's computers to tell them what the prim should look like), but the prim will stay that colour/texture even if I then delete the script.   In the same way, llStartAnimation tells the sim what information it should be sending to people's computers about how you should be moving, and can only do that when it's on the same sim, but after it's sent that initial instruction, the script's done its job.

Does that make sense?

Yes! Makes perfect sense. Thank you so much, Innula, for taking the time to explain how it works. Makes sense that I can still dance after TPing to a different sim, cuz the script is now running from my CPU, but I can't change dances after I've TPed, even if I still have the menu open. You're awesome!

Jeanne

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Very interesting. I don't know much of anything about scripts, so it's neat to learn about. One last question (I think) - they can keep animating you even after you've muted them? Yikes!

I haven't yet had anyone I know have this used on them, and hope they don't! Sounds like a nasty piece of work, particularly since the request to grant permission can be disguised as something completely innocent.

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We had a lengthy discussion about this permissions trick in the Scripting Tips forum a few months ago.   Someone there who has one of these devices did some tests with a friend and confirmed that it still worked after his friend muted him.   We also had a chat about it over at SLU.   

If you, or anyone else, wants to find out more about scripting, we're always glad to help over at Scripting Tips.   I didn't know anything about scripting till I started asking questions there -- that's how I learned.

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Jeanne:

"I steal collars. The first time I stole one I was just a newbie and didn't really know about collars & RLV. When this doofy dom guy put one on me, I ~poofed~ before the RLV got activated and ended up with it in my inv and he had no control over it. Once I realized I could do that, I started doing it for a hobby. Now I have a collection of the stupid things. LoL Sometimes I wear them as trophies."

 

Persephone:

I find this tactic hilarious. I have no problem with adults acting out their fantasies in SL or RL, as long as everything done is ultimately consensual. Having been briefly involved in the RL BDSM scene, I can attest that some people enjoy letting others have control over them, myself included to some degree. Personally, though, I'm far from an "ideal submissive", because I never give up all my control. I'd be the kind to try to manipulate my Dominant if he annoyed me or pissed me off. I've also seen male Doms in SL & RL who I think deserve to be manipulated, mocked & taught some humility.

 

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Lucinda Bulloch wrote:

when i was here 2 years ago there was a Persephone, a vile creature, diff surname, but a vile creature that looked at all spelling and liked to bully people, he thought he had power and would AR all those that fought back, of course you are not that vile creature he was sick.

 

i allways saw him as a very fat short old bloke that could never get any sex in rl

You might be thinking of a different first name.  Pserendipity perhaps?

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