Imported DAE from zbrush-Sculptris - error

[Toysoldier Thor]

I am sure there is an easy answer to this but this was my first quick shot at importing a mesh model from my 3D tool and it failed.

I created a model in Sculptris.  Awsome freeform sculpting tool.  When I created it, I was asked to bring it into SL to show it at a UWA art challenge.  I thought I would try to do my first mesh import and I knew that Sculptris could not generate DAE files so I exported the model to OBJ and imported it into my Zbrush.  Then I used Zsculpty in Zbrush to generate the DAE.

Zbrush had no errors in doing it and created the file.  I thought - woo hoo this might even work...

Then I tried to import it into SL.  And when the load model screen came up there was an X on the LEVEL OF DETAILS screen saying that the Triangles and Vertices for the DAE model were  N/A.  So basically it failed.

I am using the latest version of Zsculpty (9B i believe).

Any answers why?

 

PS - this is a 2D photo of the model in Sculptris (and the OBJ import to zbrush looks identical).

http://toysoldierthor.deviantart.com/art/Swimmers-TheArrival-RawPhoto-277105084

I have the CAE file if it helps someone figure out why SL thinks there are no triangles or vertices in it.

[Toysoldier Thor]

OK I was playing around some more and it seems that Zsculpty plugin within Zbrush just doesnt know how to work with the OBJ imported and generated mesh that came from Sculptris.

My next thought was - maybe Blender can do it.  So I installed Blender and imported the OBJ there.  The sculptris model showed up in Blender just as it looked in sculptris (and zbrush for that matter).  I exported to a DAE and tried to import the model into SL (or at least just see its costs).  I knew it was gonna be high if it was created in Sculptris that has no vertices limits as it creates....

I set the the physics to the lowest (I dont care if there even is physics) and the LOD for medium low lowest to generate.

There are 174752 triangles and 201965 vertices.  I assumed the upload and LI was not gonna be good...

Pressed calculate.  SL took a minute then came back with the following :

 

SWIMMERS-mesh failed to upload. Multiple errors while validating asset.  NewAgentInventory_InvalidAsset.  See the log file for details.

I am starting to think that importing a sculptris model into SL is impossible.

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

LOL ... I figured the number of vertices might be too high with physics and LODs so I tinkered and set the physics to lowest and set all LODs but the highest to 0.  It actually successfully calculated the mesh model and surprisingly it was way lower than I imagined - upload cost of 14L and LI=75. 

So I said "why not" and uploaded it.  It took about 2 minutes to upload.  When if finally arrived I dragged the model to my floor and waited.   About 3 minutes later the model popped up.  I thought it was just invisible and I created som phantom mesh.  But it just took 3 minutes to rez.

Next issue... the mesh model is riddled with triangular holes in it.  I have to assume that its because I was so far over the 65000 limit that the Model importing tool made arbitrary decisions of removing triangles...

So here is the result of a Sculptris model, exported to OBJ, imported to Blender, exported to DAE, imported to SL.  I put the image in EDIT mode so you can better see the countless triangle holes in my mesh.

 

 

[Nooto]

I use Sculptris as my main modeling tool for mesh for second life, i can tell right away your triangle count for your model is far too high for second life.

You can make massive reductions to your models triangle count in sculptris with the Reduce Brush alone.Even after that you can still make more reductions to your model in Blender with a modifier called Decimate.

These are just a few things you can do to make your models Second life import an easy one.

[Chosen Few]

Cool sculptire.  I love the image you linked.

But yeah, as you well said, the poly count is pretty nutty.  If sculptris is to be your tool of choice.  Keep the tool settings such that the extra polys don't pile on with your brush strokes.

[Toysoldier Thor]

Thanks Nooto for the suggestions on how to reduce the poly count.  I didnt know about the REDUCE function of Sculptris.  I saw the button but I really didnt know its purpose.  I will try it BUT my fear is that since I made a sculpture of the human form with continuous soft intricate curves and shapes (like the fingers), I fear that the REDUCE will begin to destroy the form if I use it too much.  But I will experiment.

As for the DECIMATE modifier... LOL well that is one of the main reasons I left Blender in the first place.  Its obscure surper tenchical functions were so hard to understand and use that I just got frustrated at Blender.  Last night I installed the latest Blender simply to use it as a way of creating a DAE file.  I have noticed that the new blender's interface now looks completely different than the 2.49 I use to use.  I remember ther were modifiers in blender but I have no clue how to use them or where to find this modifier.

So I guess I will try to reduce the poly count with only the REDUCE button.

I dont use Sculptris as my default tool to make sculpties.  I used to use Blender and switched to Zbrush.  Not that Zbrush was vastly less confusing but it was better than Blender.

I use Sculptris to make amazing freeform hand sculptures that I 2D photograph and make into 2D art.  I never had intentions to actually bring the sculptures into SL.  But now I have been asked if I could bring my sculptures into SL. 

Here are two examples of my 2D photo art of my 3D Sculptris models...

http://toysoldierthor.deviantart.com/art/Swimmers-The-Arrival-277100164

http://toysoldierthor.deviantart.com/gallery/26942771#/d3fczrr

I could never imagine bringing these models and my texturing of these models into SL - as much as I would love to.

[Drongle McMahon]

If you use the high poly models to bake a texture and then put that on a low poly version in SL, you might get acceptable results? I am very surprised that you got anything to upload with that vertex count. The upload format uses a 16-bit integer to index into the table of vertices. So it cannot ever index more than 65536 vertices. The uploader really should prevent the upload if you give it more than that. :matte-motes-agape:

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Drongle McMahon wrote:

If you use the high poly models to bake a texture and then put that on a low poly version in SL, you might get acceptable results? I am very surprised that you got anything to upload with that vertex count. The upload format uses a 16-bit integer to index into the table of vertices. So it cannot ever index more than 65536 vertices. The uploader really should prevent the upload if you give it more than that. :matte-motes-agape:

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LOL Well Go Figure!  I guess we all learn something new. 

My 172,000 triangle model did get sucessfully imported (well sorta successful) after I played around with the Physics and setting the LODs of all but HIGH to 0.  As I mentioned earlier, my first shot was that I got an error message afer like 2 minutes of the sim server trying to calculate the model's upload and LI.

But if you wanna see it live on the SL grid I can show you.  And strangely its LI cost was not that bad - 75 as you can see.  But as you can also see, the model is riddled with triangle holes and the sim server took about 2 to 3 minutes to rez it on my parcel.

So... its not that it technically CANNOT do it... it can somehow but clearly with poor interpretations of what to do with all the extra triangles beyond its 65000 limit.

You tell me how it didnt reject and got it generated into SL?

 

ADDED COMMENT:  So as you can see I did texture this model in Sculptris... but how would I get this texture out of sculptris and into SL?  I know I can get the texture into PS as a PSD but I dont think these are usable in SL.

[Drongle McMahon]

Ah. 172,000 triangles, but maybe less than 65536 vertices? The triangle count is unlimited. I think there is a function that removes very small triangles on the way to rfendering, but I don't think that should give you visible holes.

Convert PSD->TGA in photoshop etc. Then you can import into SL. It can't be bigger than 1024 x 1024. You would have to preserve the UV mapping of the high poly version in the low poly model. I didn't say it would be easy. :matte-motes-grin: I don't know your tools, so I can't help much there.

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

Dont laugh but the SL Model Importer reported that the DAE had 172,000 triangles and 212,000 vertices.

I am gonna play with this more.  As bad as the process was to get this model into SL, I found it intriguing that so many triangles/vertices could actually not be very LI expensive.  For Sculpture / Statue Making - this might be a Godsend for 3D and 2D artists like me that would love the higher vertices needed to make free form sculptures with no physics.

I just need to learn all this complicated reducing and decimating functions of making a mesh model for the restricted world of SL's grid.

thanks for some of the hints on how to bring my sculptris texture into SL.  I will try.  Not sure how to get this UV from sculptris.

[Ashasekayi Ra]

I use Sculptris and Zbrush from time to time. One issue I noticed with Sculptris models is that they sometimes made these extraneous floating vertices. So, I would have to take the model into Blender, go into Edit mode and remove doubles. This got rid of the duplicated vertices. Then, I would have to check for and select non-manifold vertices. This is when you'd see the cloud of floating, disconnected vertices. You can then delete the floating vertices. You may also get the floating cloud of vertices after using a decimation solution. So, it is good to check for them then as well.

[Toysoldier Thor]

Hmm - interesting Asha... I will try those ideas as well to see if Blender can further improve the efficiency of this Sculptris model.  Telling me exactly where to find the "EDIT REMOVE DUPLICATES" really helps as I totally lost touch with Blender.  Although I do not know what "non manifold vertices" are, exactly how do I execute the steps to select and delete these?  Also, should I decimate first and if so - exactly how does one Decimate a model in Blender?

ONE QUESTION to the LL Mesh Gods....  how was I able - even in a shredded state - to get SL Model Import to successfully ingest a 172,000 triangle / 212,000 vertices DAE model into SL?  As a few have said... this is supposed to be impossible.

Maybe a LL Mesh developer should take a look at my resulting mesh in SL and diagnose it.    They will have to wait 3 minutes for the model to rez but it will rez on the sim.

[Siddean Munro]

Zbrush has an excellent mesh decimation plugin which will get that poly count right down while preserving most of your detail so it doesn't take 3 minutes to rez . Decimation master, easy to use, preserves your uv etc. good stuff to get to know if this is the kind of work you're doing!

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Siddean Munro wrote:

Zbrush has an excellent mesh decimation plugin which will get that poly count right down while preserving most of your detail so it doesn't take 3 minutes to rez

. Decimation master, easy to use, preserves your uv etc. good stuff to get to know if this is the kind of work you're doing!

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The problem is that by using Sculptris as my freehand model molding tool (which is awesome at doing even though it spews 100's of thousands of triangles in its process), the problem is that the Sculptris exported OBJ that imports into Zbrush does not seem to be visible as a poly that the Zsculpty outputting DAE generator can read.  I am sure there is something I am doing wrong in Zbrush that does not let Zsculpty see the imported "tool" that came from sculptris (even Zbrush is a bit of a black art to me regarding fixing and importing and initialize a model).

Now that I know how to bring in a mesh into SL, I might draw the next sculpture directly in Zbrush and avoid the Sculptris import.

UPDATE on my progress...

BTW, last night I used the Sculptris REDUCTION tools and I got my statue down from 172,000 triangles to 31,000 and then to 9000.  It can be very accurate as one reduction tool is actually a scalable brush.  A smart reducer like you said Zbrush plugin has would be awesome (i.e. give me the lowest poly count without changing my model more than x%).

I Mesh uploaded all 3 model to SL.  The LI of the 3 were 75prim, 6prim, 2prim respectively for about a 3meter cubed shape.  I settled on the 31,000 triangle mesh because although the two looked almost identical in form, you could see deformaties / boxiness in the fingers of the 2Prim model.

The next problem I never was able to overcome was to get my beautiful and easy to paint Sculptris texture into SL.  I had a beautiful texture on the Sculptris model but even though I exported the Texture map out of Sculptris, when I brought it into SL and slapped it on the SL model - it looked blotched and stretched and had major gaps.  I am sure it has something to do with the UV from Sculptris but the NOOB I am on this - I have no clue the steps to fix it.

What I would really love to understand and just cannot grasp nor have found a simple tutorial on is how to texture paint in Sculptris or even Zbrush and get the resulting texture to be on the model in SL.  That would be a DREAM!

IF anyone knows of a very DUMBED DOWN version of this process for Sculptris or Zbrush TO SL, I would love it.

Also, as of last night I rememebered why I SOOOO MUCH HATE BLENDER!  It makes flying a plane seem easy.  I threw up my hands trying to find modes that didnt exist in certain states, modifiers that were cryptic, useless "scene" windows that open but I have no clue how to close (no "x" button), even simple model movement keys that are not like any other tool on moving a model.  Last night confirmed that I will never go back to Blender except if I have to export a DAE.

Anyway, I did make the deadline for the University of Western Australia 3D Artists Challenge last night.  I used TWO of my 31K models and linked it with 8 other basic prims and with animation srcipts in a few prims including one of the mesh.  I linked them all together and the total build was 45 prims.  I would show a finished photo of my work but I am at RL work.

Cheers

[Drongle McMahon]

"...although the two looked almost identical in form, you could see deformaties / boxiness in the fingers of the 2Prim model."

Couldn't you cut the hands off the 9000 model and replace them with the hands from the 31000 model?

[Toysoldier Thor]

In essense that is what the 31,000 model is.  Using the Sculptris Reducing Brush, I reduced the polys all over the model where there were a lot of straight lines and where there were a lot of detailed curves like the hands, fingers, breasts, pecs, forehead/nose, etc. I left the poly count high enough that it was not changing the skin geometry.   So the 31,000 model is the 9000 model with high details on the model where it counted.

I am not sure if an over reduced poly count was a factor to why appying a texture on the SL mesh looked so terrible.  I increased the poly count even on the flat areas but it didnt help much.  I used a seamless texture on the mesh in SL but unlike a Sculpty, the seamless texture on the mesh looked TERRIBLE.  It was distorted and stretched and not uniform.

The 31K mesh made the seamless texture look a little better but not by much.  Also, when you apply a texture on mesh I noticed you have to switch from DEFAULT to PLANAR (not sure the difference but the texture was not visible on DEFAULT).

So I got a lot of things to still learn on how mesh behave in SL and how to get the beauty of a Sculptris or Zbrush painted texture to look just as beautiful on an SL Mesh model.

If anyone has a youtube video on them I would love to know.

[Ashasekayi Ra]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

The next problem I never was able to overcome was to get my beautiful and easy to paint Sculptris texture into SL.  I had a beautiful texture on the Sculptris model but even though I exported the Texture map out of Sculptris, when I brought it into SL and slapped it on the SL model - it looked blotched and stretched and had major gaps.  I am sure it has something to do with the UV from Sculptris but the NOOB I am on this - I have no clue the steps to fix it.

 

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I'm not sure what your workflow is. But, I generally build my model in Sculptris or Zbrush. Then, I use Blender to retopologize the model so that I can get nice edge flow and UV layout. (Zbrush has retopology tools, but I despise the tool.) Once I have my low res model (from retopology) and my high res model (from Zbrush/Sculptris). I take both .obj files into Xnormal and export out the maps I need. One of the maps that you can bake is a high to low texture map. In essence, it takes your Sculptris painted texture and makes it fit the nice, neat and orderly UVs created for the low poly model.  

Xnormal is an opensource program that works wonderfully as a helper program to Zbrush and Sculptris.

Here's a tutorial that covers the Zbrush to Xnormal texture pipeline. You could easily substitute Scupltris or any other sculpting program though. http://eat3d.com/free_zbrush_xnormal_pipe

 

As a side note, to remove doubles: Select the vertices in Edit Mode, hit the "W" key -> "Remove Doubles".

[Toysoldier Thor]

Thanks for the tips.  "ReTopo" basically means to remove the doubles?  and here is the question I cannot grasp in my mind and what I believe is the main reason my texture maps dont even come close to fitting on my mesh in SL....  Why do I have to "UV" my model and EXACTLY how does one UV the model?  Is it simply one button in blender?

I just hope the MODE in blender is there when I import the obj.  I tried to follow a couple simple "how to apply a texture onto a mesh in Blender" but options in the video under texture (like MAPPING") do not exist when I bring in the Sculpty OBJ even though the video shows it should.  Blender has a bad habit of removing/hiding modes and options for obscure reasons.

I will sure try this XNormal plugin.  But of the two programs of Zbrush or Blender, Zbrush for me is the lesser of two UI Disaster evils.

[Ashasekayi Ra]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Thanks for the tips.  "ReTopo" basically means to remove the doubles?  and here is the question I cannot grasp in my mind and what I believe is the main reason my texture maps dont even come close to fitting on my mesh in SL....  Why do I have to "UV" my model and EXACTLY how does one UV the model?  Is it simply one button in blender?

I just hope the MODE in blender is there when I import the obj.  I tried to follow a couple simple "how to apply a texture onto a mesh in Blender" but options in the video under texture (like MAPPING") do not exist when I bring in the Sculpty OBJ even though the video shows it should.  Blender has a bad habit of removing/hiding modes and options for obscure reasons.

I will sure try this XNormal plugin.  But of the two programs of Zbrush or Blender, Zbrush for me is the lesser of two UI Disaster evils.

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Retopology isn't related to removing doubles. When you do retopo, you are making a new topology for a high resolution mesh. The retopolgized mesh can have quads and good edge flow. Another benefit is that you can make an efficient UV map for the new low resolution model. I use the paid version of the Bsurfaces addon for Blender to do my retopo since it is fast and easy to use. Here's a tutorial on the addon that will give you an idea of what retopology is: http://cgcookie.com/blender/2011/08/08/retopology-with-the-bsurfaces-add-on/. There are free solutions for retoplogy in Blender as well, but they take much longer. (There is also a free version of Bsurfaces in Blender. It's a lower version than the paid one that doesn't have the best features and it's buggy.) As I mentioned before, you can use Zbrush for retopology, but the tool really sucks imho. Here's a tutorial that shows how to do it in Zbrush though: 

 

As for UV mapping, there isn't a one button solution if you want a quality UV map at the end that doesn't have bad stretching. That being said, it does depend on the model. Some models are easier to unwrap and organize than others. Here is a whole series on the different UVmapping solutions in Blender: http://www.youtube.com/user/cannedmushrooms#grid/user/AB4DF1F21A33CB3B

To better understand the default UV Mapping solution in Zbrush (and Sculptris), you may want to read this page: http://www.pixologic.com/docs/index.php/Tool:Texture_Subpalette#Other_Types_of_UV_Mapping As you can see, it uses a tile system, which cuts down on texture distortion. However, you can't take that map into Photoshop and make hand painted changes because all it looks like is a bunch of tiles. That's why it is customary to make a low resolution version of the high resolution sculpted model and make a well, laid out UV map for that low model that can be easily understood and used by a person later.

Zbrush also has a plugin for making a UV layout that is not tile based. It's called UV Master. If you want to explore that one, here's a link: http://www.pixologic.com/blog/2010/02/uv-master-tutorials/

[Drongle McMahon]

"Zbrush ... uses a tile system, which cuts down on texture distortion." :matte-motes-agape:

Ugh. That's horrible. It makes a separate UV island for every polygon. That is also a nightmare for SL download weight, as it means each vertex has to be repeated as many times as the number of polygons it appears in. So for a nice regular quad mesh it will come close to quadrupling the download weight compared with a joined-up UV map.

[Ashasekayi Ra]

Thanks for pointing that point out Drongle. Just one more reason not to use that sort of UV map in a final production.

[Toysoldier Thor]

WOW... thanks a lot for all the info.  More to read although my mind is barely grasping the concept of UV... and with all the options and that Blender now seems like the better option and since Blender is equivilent to brain surgury ---- I am personally getting frustrated that after reading all this and taking another shot of getting through a workable pipeline, I will just throw my hands up once again.

So, you mentioned that there is no magic button to setting the UV.  Therefor I have to some how have to hand place all the UV patches onto the mesh model in order for what i painted on the high rez mesh to get somewhat clean on the texture map/UV going into SL?

And triangles are BAD? Quads are GOOD?  So I have to also convert my triangles to quads for SL to have a good looking texture map?

And its sounding like more and more ppl do not like Zbrush as a good tool when working with models destined for SL?  Maybe I should just consider abandoning Zbrush and look for a new tool.  With the exception of the rocket scientists in this forum that can get their minds around Blender and its horrid UI, is there a more simple and easier to understand tool than Blender?  I dread opening up Blender everytime I have to.  2.48 was bad but at least when it opens up - it was pretty simple and clean with its windows layout.  2.5 2.6 is a completely confusing jumble of windows (most of them seeming to be related to creating an animation scene) and I have no clue how to even close them.

So what tool is the easiest tool for SL mesh / texture map making?  I so wish a tool like sculptris and its simplicity had the smarts to do the proper retopo, UV, and exporting of its models and maps.

[Drongle McMahon]

I wouldn't want my comment about the fragmentd UV mapping to stop you using Zbrush. I am sure there must be reasonable pipelines for getting a Zbrush model into SL without that problem, whether that involves a bit of Blender or not. I'm afraid I don't know Zbrush though.