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Time to rethink my commitment to SL


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Eio Tuqiri wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:


Eio Tuqiri wrote:

Replying to Monti Messmer who said, "What worries me more is the line about - release this new build features for Linden Realms only to a selected crowd - (not his original words but thats the meaning)."

I believe this is the part of Rod's post? "we will be releasing new tools used to develop Linden Realms, which will allow Residents to create even richer original experiences in Second Life. To prevent abuse of these tools, we will introduce a "creators" program in which verified members will be given access to these very powerful capabilities."

I'm with you Monti, I had a bad feeling about that too.

 

"creation has always been limited to those that wish to learn it..owning can be for everyone."

Hi Ceka,

Not sure which part of my post you're responding to, but I'd say that, "those who wish to learn it" (from your post) will not be able to unless they are "verified members" (from Rodvik's post).  And as far as "owning can be for everyone" (from your post), my guess is that since only "verified members will be given access to these very powerful capabilities" (from Rod's post) I'm not sure how what they create might be given or sold into the hands, or seen by the eyes of those who are not allowed the capabilities.  I guess that remains to be seen.

And selling those things they may create brings up other questions of inequity, with only verified members being given access. 

yes someone showed me i think in another thread where rodvik had mentioned only verified could use these tools and things..

i'll have to look into it and see what i would have to do to become verified..because i don't want to be limited..so hopefull  i can be hehehehehe

also i just have to say..i like the little touch in your avatar with your name in the corner..

people can never see mine because it's blacked out..

i may have to try something like that in some way..maybe just ceka hehehehe

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Phil Deakins wrote:

The current Phoenix viewer has mesh incorporated into it. They weren't going to do it, but they changed their minds.

they actually had gotten it from  i believe Boy Lane..i remember on their site giving credit to the cool viewer creator if i remember right..because they had came up with a way to use it in that viewer for mesh..

thats the version they also used in the V2 i believe..that got firestorm viewing mesh and was just a hold me over till they could put out the version they wanted..

i don't know if they are still using that version for viewing mesh in firestorm..but they do in phoenix i believe..

omg i sound like miss SC with all my i believes and her such as's lol

is this the iraq? such as? i believe?

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Ceka Cianci wrote:


also i just have to say..i like the little touch in your avatar with your name in the corner..


Thanks Ceka, I found a tutorial on how to make the Forum badges and that's actually the name of my group and upcoming website.  To put it on the badge, it's actually a separate texture that gets combined with the whole image.

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Eio Tuqiri wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:


also i just have to say..i like the little touch in your avatar with your name in the corner..


Thanks Ceka, I found a tutorial on how to make the Forum badges and that's actually the name of my group and upcoming website.  To put it on the badge, it's actually a separate texture that gets combined with the whole image.

ya my bouncy pin is on it  also..

it took me a bit to get my whole thing for my avatar setup when i first did mine lol

there was a lot of trial and error then LOL

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To me commitment is a strange word. It works for human relationships but with a company that provides entertainment? As long as it is entertaining people will stay. If it isn't they won't. Commitment is for military contracts or marriages.

There is still so much good in Second Life. As long as it remains a place where people can create and share and make friends and have fun why would anyone leave. If there is some problem that can be fixed, a lot of times it is up to us to fix it.

And MERRY CHRISTMAS!

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Great video Ceka.

Apart from the LOL it reminded me of being in a village in Colombia and realising just how small the UK is.  The local kids were excited to meet European strangers but I don't speak Spanish and they, not unaturally, didn't know where Britain was.  I started drawing a map in the sand.  We identified Colombia, S and N Armerica, Africa and Europe.  I made a dot with my finger off the NW cost of Europe as Britain.  I started again, drawing it bigger, finger-painting was still far too broad-brush for it to be more than a smudge.  I started again ... and then gave up and had another beer instead.

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

Great video Ceka.

Apart from the LOL it reminded me of being in a village in Colombia and realising just how small the UK is.  The local kids were excited to meet European strangers but I don't speak Spanish and they, not unaturally, didn't know where Britain was.  I started drawing a map in the sand.  We identified Colombia, S and N Armerica, Africa and Europe.  I made a dot with my finger off the NW cost of Europe as Britain.  I started again, drawing it bigger, finger-painting was still far too broad-brush for it to be more than a smudge.  I started again ... and then gave up and had another beer instead.

hehehe i love a good story like that =)

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I'll simplify:

The basket of 'technotainment' goods and services available for US$300 is three times larger than it was in 2006. The basket contains 1) new goods and services that did not exist in 2006 (iPhone, iPad, Kindle, Nvidia 9-series graphics cards, WoW Burning Crusade, public Facebook, Twitter etc.) and 2) goods and services that did exist in 2006 (Nvidia 8-series graphic cards, Intel 6300 processors, hosting services etc.), which have fallen in price by at least 66%. A person with US$300 today can buy much more for his $300 than he could in 2006. Since the price of tier has not gone down in competition with that basket of technotainment goods and services, the relative price of tier (the price of tier relative to the competing basket of technotainment goods and services) has tripled - more than tripled, but I am being conservative.

The reason why surplus mainland needs to be mopped up is because there is no natural mechanism for it to vanish. Only Linden Lab can remove mainland. Mainland is worthless today because the quantity is fixed while demand has fallen sharply (largely due to the tripling of the relative price of tier and five years of counterproductive strategies and policies). I have personally passed on several prime abandoned parcels because the land was not even worth the L$1 per m2 abandonment cost. You would have to pay me to own it - and I'm talking about prime, top-quality land. Even Zindra (small supply of XXX land) is at historic lows - almost valueless.

Why is this a problem? Because tens of thousands of residents who own mainland have seen their purchase price wiped out. These are not happy customers. They are not saying nice things about Second Life. They are spreading the word to their friends that Second Life was a bad deal. They are blogging, texting and tweeting their unhappy experiences with land ownership in SL. They are moving to Opensim worlds, slowly, steadily. They are bad publicity for Linden Lab.

Does LL need this bad publicity right now? Does LL want 'virtual land' to become a common phrase like 'watered stock' or 'the Brooklyn Bridge' or 'vaporware'? For a company whose revenues are dependent on selling virtual land, I'm not sure it's a great idea to allow tens of thousands of customers see their money go down the toilet. I don't think Linden Lab wants to end up as a synonym for companies that blew away their customer base through sheer incompetence.

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Deltango Vale wrote:

I'll simplify:

The basket of 'technotainment' goods and services available for US$300 is three times larger than it was in 2006. The basket contains 1) new goods and services that did not exist in 2006 (iPhone, iPad, Kindle, Nvidia 9-series graphics cards, WoW Burning Crusade, public Facebook, Twitter etc.) and 2) goods and services that did exist in 2006 (Nvidia 8-series graphic cards, Intel 6300 processors, hosting services etc.), which have fallen in price by at least 66%. A person with US$300 today can buy much more for his $300 than he could in 2006. Since the price of tier has not gone down in competition with that basket of technotainment goods and services, the relative price of tier (the price of tier relative to the competing basket of technotainment goods and services) has tripled - more than tripled, but I am being conservative.

The reason why surplus mainland needs to be mopped up is because there is no natural mechanism for it to vanish. Only Linden Lab can remove mainland. Mainland is worthless today because the quantity is fixed while demand has fallen sharply (largely due to the tripling of the relative price of tier and five years of counterproductive strategies and policies). I have personally passed on several prime abandoned parcels because the land was not even worth the L$1 per m2 abandonment cost. You would have to pay me to own it - and I'm talking about prime, top-quality land. Even Zindra (small supply of XXX land) is at historic lows - almost valueless.

Why is this a problem? Because tens of thousands of residents who own mainland have seen their purchase price wiped out. These are not happy customers. They are not saying nice things about Second Life. They are spreading the word to their friends that Second Life was a bad deal. They are blogging, texting and tweeting their unhappy experiences with land ownership in SL. They are moving to Opensim worlds, slowly, steadily. They are bad publicity for Linden Lab.

Does LL need this bad publicity right now? Does LL want 'virtual land' to become a common phrase like 'watered stock' or 'the Brooklyn Bridge' or 'vaporware'? For a company whose revenues are dependent on selling virtual land, I'm not sure it's a great idea to allow tens of thousands of customers see their money go down the toilet. I don't think Linden Lab wants to end up as a synonym for companies that blew away their customer base through sheer incompetence.

This does lead me to ask one question and raise a point.

Are Linden Homes placed on existing Mainland or are they somewhere separate?  One way to reduce empty Mainland would be to have Linden Homes on abandoned SIMS.  Reducing the amount of empty Mainland this way could possibly increase the value of Mainland by reducing the amount available to buy.

In his end of year comments, Rodvik stated that Linden Home Occupancy was at an all time high. I also got the feeling that he thinks  this indicates higher retention.  But when I consider that my Landlady had to surrender a Mainland SIM this year due to low occupancy, is what all that has really happened is a shift in WHERE people are living?

And as I have stated on prior occasions, when your supplier also becomes your competitor it is a very difficult place to be competitively speaking, hence my objection to the way they are handled.  As I've said before, at best they should be a time limited offering allowing people the time to settle into SL and find housing elsewhere.  You get six months but then you have to find your own little piece of Paradise.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

This does lead me to ask one question and raise a point.

Are Linden Homes placed on existing Mainland or are they somewhere separate?  One way to reduce empty Mainland would be to have Linden Homes on abandoned SIMS.  Reducing the amount of empty Mainland this way could possibly increase the value of Mainland by reducing the amount available to buy.

In his end of year comments, Rodvik stated that Linden Home Occupancy was at an all time high. I also got the feeling that he thinks  this indicates higher retention.  But when I consider that my Landlady had to surrender a Mainland SIM this year due to low occupancy, is what all that has really happened is a shift in WHERE people are living?

And as I have stated on prior occasions, when your supplier also becomes your competitor it is a very difficult place to be competitively speaking, hence my objection to the way they are handled.  As I've said before, at best they should be a time limited offering allowing people the time to settle into SL and find housing elsewhere.  You get six months but then you have to find your own little piece of Paradise.

 

Nope! it is it's own continent. It is not connected to any other land too. You have to teleport there, as there is no way to walk into it. I really have no idea what LL was thinking when they did this. To me, it just seems moronic not to connect it to a mainland continent or even a few, allowing the Linden homes to be a bridge to all those continents with more thru traffic coming from the Linden homes.

I used to own 1, but It was really a disaster, if you ask me. Most areas block all features, even the community areas. This means you can't use anything there, except in your own home. Once, I tried to take a tour around the Linden homes land and anytime I wanted to change something on my AO, I had to find a porch where the owner allowed for the use of scripts. What a nightmare. From then on, I never left the home, as what was the point if I can't use anything I've purchased or made. The only reason I took the Home was to meet other people that I would not normally meet. That never happened as leaving your home meant not being able to do anything.

Let's play the game, "What would I have done?". I would have started a program, by which residents in the small rental business could sign up and be a qualified Linden Homes renter. I would have made a set of guidelines that must be followed and I would have paid those Land renters a set price per official renter. This gives the Linden Home owner a landlord to help them, and the landlord could have put on events for all the people. Essentially, LL would have been paying the landlords to be part of customer support, but in an indirect way. A small price to pay for quality support for newbies. Plus, if the newbie does not like the landowner, or knows of a better 1 with more events, then they could just easily leave and rent from the other.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Let's play the game, "What would I have done?".


I would have, and still would, work the program into abandoned land.

Let any premium walk up to any abandoned lot, carve out 512m of it within some limited shapes - and call that their 'linden home.'

The limited shape option would begin with the common pattern of 16x32, and a few deviations. And it would have a rule that one side of the cut is on the edge of the abandoned lot (to prevent people effectively claiming double land by going inside in a pattern that made the other land useless.

Obviously some thought would have to go into that to perfect it and help avoid most abuses.

Frankly I'd also pet my moles, if I were running the show, to work recutting linden lands and abandoned land to regroup things, make 512-560 lots that have viable shapes, and leave the excess to the 'governor' as protected land.

- If this could be done, then the lots made would be the lots used for linden homes.

 

I'd keep the current restrictions of no commercial use and no sky builds. OR, I would refine skybuilds - linden homes could have skybuilds between 1000m - 2000m. Not above or below, unless at ground. Those two are limits you could put into the code to be checked automatically. This would allow sky builds, but keep the full sky reserved for people on 'fully owned land'.

 

Some thought would also need to go into what happens to leave such a lot, and how people could acquire the land fully.

- If we got the moles to cut up abandoned land into 512 lots, then they could be handed out randomly instead of by people going to them as I'd suggested above. That would actually make the process of 'discovering' your new home location even more exciting.

Note that I'm not suggesting a linden home be pre-rezzed on the lot at no prim cost the way its currently done - that requires 512m of governor linden land adjacent to the lot to put the root prim. I think instead these homes should have a 20-30 prim home on them, that you can either return to the governor and rez your own, or not... But not being able to would require, again, the root prim outside the lot somewhere... or new server code. If returnable, there would need to be code in place to re-rez it the moment a person moved out.

 

(so you can see that while my idea sounds simple, working out the details gets complex - the wrong choices above and you end up with yet another fiasco like we have now.)

 

 

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Deltango Vale wrote:

I'll simplify:

The basket of 'technotainment' goods and services available for US$300 is three times larger than it was in 2006. The basket contains 1) new goods and services that did not exist in 2006 (iPhone, iPad, Kindle, Nvidia 9-series graphics cards, WoW Burning Crusade, public Facebook, Twitter etc.) and 2) goods and services that did exist in 2006 (Nvidia 8-series graphic cards, Intel 6300 processors, hosting services etc.), which have fallen in price by at least 66%. A person with US$300 today can buy much more for his $300 than he could in 2006. Since the price of tier has not gone down in competition with that basket of technotainment goods and services, the relative price of tier (the price of tier relative to the competing basket of technotainment goods and services) has tripled - more than tripled, but I am being conservative.

The reason why surplus mainland needs to be mopped up is because there is no natural mechanism for it to vanish. Only Linden Lab can remove mainland. Mainland is worthless today because the quantity is fixed while demand has fallen sharply (largely due to the tripling of the relative price of tier and five years of counterproductive strategies and policies). I have personally passed on several prime abandoned parcels because the land was not even worth the L$1 per m2 abandonment cost. You would have to pay me to own it - and I'm talking about prime, top-quality land. Even Zindra (small supply of XXX land) is at historic lows - almost valueless.

Why is this a problem? Because tens of thousands of residents who own mainland have seen their purchase price wiped out. These are not happy customers. They are not saying nice things about Second Life. They are spreading the word to their friends that Second Life was a bad deal. They are blogging, texting and tweeting their unhappy experiences with land ownership in SL. They are moving to Opensim worlds, slowly, steadily. They are bad publicity for Linden Lab.

Does LL need this bad publicity right now? Does LL want 'virtual land' to become a common phrase like 'watered stock' or 'the Brooklyn Bridge' or 'vaporware'? For a company whose revenues are dependent on selling virtual land, I'm not sure it's a great idea to allow tens of thousands of customers see their money go down the toilet. I don't think Linden Lab wants to end up as a synonym for companies that blew away their customer base through sheer incompetence.

There was no need to simplify. All you had to do was answer the question, but you didn't even attempt to answer it until this post.

So you're saying that mainland needs to be mopped up because all that abandoned land looks bad, gets talked about badly, and LL can do without that sort of negative publicity. (That's how to simplify it).

I don't see that as a good reason to mop up the empty mainland. There are lots of empty spaces now. When the mainland was fully used, there was ugly stuff all over it, making much of it undesirable for new buyers. I've always been a mainland user and I prefer it the way it is now to they way it was before.

On a different topic (the topic you keep trying to bring in, even though it's nothing to do with your original statement): All that stuff about tier simply isn't true. Your comparing apples to pairs and that's not logical. If you want to show how the cost tier has (relatively) risen over the years, you need to compare it with something like it. Hard p[roducts, like the Kindle, can't be compared with tier, which is rent. How about the cost of hosting a website. That's very much like what tier is. Has that decreased by two thirds in the same period of time? I don't think so. Competition has surely lowered hosting prices but not by anywhere near as much as your two thirds. If there had been no competition for it, it wouldn't have lowered. But even then there's a limit on how low hosting charges can go, which is why it hasn't dropped by anywhere near your two thirds.

I think that what you may be getting at is that, since tier was priced up, the cost of hardware has come down enormously (because the power of computers has risen enormously so you get much more bang for your buck), which could be taken to mean that the cost to LL has come down enormously, and it should be passed on to the customer. I.e. if LL gets 3 times the computer power for the same cost, then tier should be lowered to 1/3 of what it was. But it doesn't work like that. For one thing, no company can change all its machines when a more powerful one comes out. They update over time; i.e. when new ones are needed, they get the current, more powerful ones. Otherwise, they don't change at all - not for a long time, anyway. Also, the increase in computer power doesn't mean lower costs to LL. They paid for the previous machines, and they can't get that cost back. A decrease in the cost of something that gets used up, such as the cost of gas to a gas retailer, can be passed on, but that's not hardware. Hardware gets paid for once, and it doesn't get used up.

But all that has nothing to do with your statement that LL needs to mop up all the empty mainland. I'm not saying that LL shouldn't do anything at all about the mainland. I was curious why you thought they "need to".

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16 wrote:

was henri beauchamp who made the mesh port to v1 style. henri makes the cool viewer. boy makes rainbow viewer. boy used to make the windows build of cool viewer way back bc henri is linux dev. they gone their own ways since then tho 

thank you for that correction..=)

I was only sure about the cool viewer but only really knew of Boy lane in relation to those..

I guess that's why i used so many "i believe's" .. My sub-conscience must have taken over and wouldn't let me commit to a definite answer hehehehe

Either way thank you for clearing that up for me =) It's been a little bit since i had read that article  at the phoenix site..

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

thank you for that correction..=)

I was only sure about the cool viewer but only really knew of Boy lane in relation to those..

I guess that's why i used so many "i believe's" ..
My sub-conscience
must have taken over and wouldn't let me commit to a definite answer hehehehe

Either way thank you for clearing that up for me =) It's been a little bit since i had read that article  at the phoenix site..

Is that better or worse than the normal conscience? Is it an extra conscience that we would all benefit by having?

;)

And a very merry Christmas to you.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

thank you for that correction..=)

I was only sure about the cool viewer but only really knew of Boy lane in relation to those..

I guess that's why i used so many "i believe's" ..
My sub-conscience
must have taken over and wouldn't let me commit to a definite answer hehehehe

Either way thank you for clearing that up for me =) It's been a little bit since i had read that article  at the phoenix site..

Is that better or worse than the normal conscience? Is it an extra conscience that we would all benefit by having?

;)

And a very merry Christmas to you.

i'm juss waking up !! let me wake up before you hit me wiff deese tings!! *yawns and stretches* \o/

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Phil Deakins wrote:

The current Phoenix viewer has mesh incorporated into it. They weren't going to do it, but they changed their minds.

True Phil, the Phoenix viewer I'm using is not the current mesh viewing version. 

My point being that there are other viewers that don't view mesh besides the "official v 1.2.3 from 2009", which was a response to "Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Since there are no longer any viewers that can't view mesh, unless you're on official v 1.2.3 from 2009... I doubt its that."

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Clarissa Lowell wrote:

To me commitment is a strange word. It works for human relationships but with a company that provides entertainment? As long as it is entertaining people will stay. If it isn't they won't. Commitment is for military contracts or marriages.


There are many reasons people are in Second Life.  I'm there as a creative artist.  There are lots of us who are there to get work done, weather it's because we are artists, merchants, educators, or the like.  SL is many things to many people.  For me it's 90% a creative and marketing tool and 10% entertainment.   I've also met and become RL friends with a number of people in SL.  For others it's 100% entertainment.

I would imagine that commitment is a concept that applies for many who are spending serious money or doing serious work here or who depend on their business to make all or part of their income.

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"Your comparing apples to pairs and that's not logical."

-------------------------------------------------

Actually, at the risk of introducing complexity instead of simplicity, the concept of relative price is precisely that. All prices are relative prices derived from an Indifference Curve. There is no such thing as a price in isolation. The price of an apple is determined relative to a pair or an orange etc. I do, though, understand what you are trying to say.

The price of hosting has definitely fallen by 66%. In addition, Wordpress is free, Facebook is free, Twitter is free, etc.. More importantly, one must compare tier to a basket of technotainment goods and services through time. It boils down to this: what can US$300 buy me in 2012 versus 2006?

  • 2006: a month of tier or an apple or an orange or a pair
  • 2012: a month of tier or 3 apples or 3 oranges or 3 pairs or a banana or a pomegranate or a watermelon or a grapefruit or a plum

As for the oversupply of mainland, it is not the amount of abandoned land that is the embarrassment, it is the tens of thousands of residents who bought mainland over the past five years who have seen their investment wiped out due to Linden Lab's sloppy management of the supply of mainland in addition to the rising relative price of tier. Does any company want tens of thousands of disgruntled customers spreading negative publicity by word of mouth?

In all fairness, Linden Lab never understood Second Life. I believe Philip Rosedale had a glimmer of its potential, but he was pushed out by those with zero vision. Since 2007, Second Life has been a Faberge Egg in the hands of a 10-year-old child. Can Rod repair the damage? I don't know, but he needs to solve this tier problem and quickly.

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I don't mind you going on about things like people's investment being wiped out because of the collapse of mainland land prices (I'm one who only bought mainland and who abandoned it some years later), but that's a different topic to what I asked you.

I don't believe that the cost of hosting has reduced by two thirds. Perhaps you mean the cost to the hosting company, which is quite different. As I said earlier, hosting prices have come down to some extent due to fierce competition in that market. If the competition hadn't forced prices down, they wouldn't have come down. SL doesn't have any competition, so the price of renting land (or server space, as some people like to think of it) from LL hasn't been forced down. Incidentally, I'm not against lower tier prices, but tier doesn't have anything to do with why LL needs to clear up the mainland, which is what you said, and that's all I asked you about.

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Eio Tuqiri wrote:


Clarissa Lowell wrote:

To me commitment is a strange word. It works for human relationships but with a company that provides entertainment? As long as it is entertaining people will stay. If it isn't they won't. Commitment is for military contracts or marriages.


There are many reasons people are in Second Life.  I'm there as a creative artist.  There are lots of us who are there to get work done, weather it's because we are artists, merchants, educators, or the like.  SL is many things to many people.  For me it's 90% a creative and marketing tool and 10% entertainment.   I've also met and become RL friends with a number of people in SL.  For others it's 100% entertainment.

I would imagine that commitment is a concept that applies for many who are spending serious money or doing serious work here or who depend on their business to make all or part of their income.

Commitment does seem like a heavy word for the topic but it wasn't meant to be. :)  As someone that owns mainland parcels, I have a monetary commitment to pay monthly tier and maintain a premium account.  That was the commitment I was referring to here.  I also have a personal commitment to myself not to spead RL money on SL.  I've kept that commitment for 4 years but its getting harder to maintain.  And as a "staff" builder, I have a commitment to the people I work for.  But that's one I enjoy and don't really need to be premium or own land in order to accomplish.  So I'm downsizing a bit going into 2012, but not packing my bags and leaving anytime soon!! :smileyvery-happy:

--Cinn

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So I'm downsizing a bit going into 2012, but not packing my bags and leaving anytime soon!! :smileyvery-happy:

--Cinn

Glad to hear it Cinn!  I've been struggling too with whether I still want to be involved in Second Life.  So many of the changes Linden Lab has made aren't the ones I would choose, but as I've said on other posts in other Forums, I congratulate Rodvic Humble and Linden Labs on the success they've had since he came on board, and I thank them for Second Life which is one of the most exciting tools/experiences I've had.  So I also decided to downsize and stick around.

It will be interesting to see what happens in 2012.

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