Time to rethink my commitment to SL

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

You can cut tier all you want, but until you shut off Marketplace, land will not recover, and thusly, SL will not recover.

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As much as I'd love to see Marketplace closed, or at least unified with in-world commerce in such a way that there's some renewed motivation to keep in-world stores, I don't think it's a logical necessity in order for SL to recover.  If it were much cheaper to own or rent land, it might cause more folks to do that, get sucked into the joys of terraforming or something, and be proud SL landowners forevermore, happily spending L$s on patio furniture and sex toys.

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MP is free unlimited tier. Land can't compete.

Thus no shops. Thus no places that are funded by having shops on their land. Thus no places to visit.  Thus no one to meet going anywhere. Thus no reason to buy anything to look good visiting places. Thus no reason to use SL. Thus no reason to get a home in SL if there's nothing to do in SL.

SL can't survive just being linden homes, a sandbox, and a couple iconoclasts hiding out in their homes rezzing prims and not talking to each other.

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Cinnamon Lohner wrote:

I'm going to have to disagree, Medhue.  Respectfully of course.

  SL was not conceived as a gaming platform.  It was conceived as a 3D animated alternative to web browsers.

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Actually it was concieved as a place to demo some new VR goggles LL's was going to market.

Everything else is just 'can we make money off of this since the goggles are too expensive to develop?'

 

 

[161488303349]

should also say about the portal bullets

while can make u quite nervous about the no permissions thing, they can also be really good

like say u got a combat sim like rausch. at moment if u get killed on that then u get intersim teleport home. if goes wonky then can crash sometimes

the autoteleport portal have two kinds of teleports. intersim like normal and same sim teleport. the same sim teleport works like double-click on ground teleport. is a insta quick jump and no black screen

so if u got a place like rausch then can cut a safe zone parcel on ur sim and make that the same sim teleport point. be way better for players in ur game that would

can turn damage off as well then. so nothing happens if random ppl come ur sim and try shoot the place up with other kinds of damage style wepons

has been some talk about making portal teleport a parcel permission like push is. that be quite good as well. so can disable any other teleport bullet that not register properly with ur sim game hud and game server

edit: maybe even override the destination. that be cool as well

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

MP is free unlimited tier. Land can't compete.

Thus no shops. Thus no places that are funded by having shops on their land. Thus no places to visit.  Thus no one to meet going anywhere. Thus no reason to buy anything to look good visiting places. Thus no reason to use SL. Thus no reason to get a home in SL if there's nothing to do in SL.

SL can't survive just being linden homes, a sandbox, and a couple iconoclasts hiding out in their homes rezzing prims and not talking to each other.

 

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Actually I've gone to, and spent money at, a lot of in-world stores that I first found when looking for things on Marketplace. Marketplace is a good way to see what's available and it's good for getting cheap commodity items but when I'm looking for something like a vehicle or good furniture I want to see it in-world. Not to mention that buying anything on Marketplace is a crapshoot a lot of the time.

[Medhue Simoni]

I beg to differ.

[Cinnamon Lohner]

The IBM case studies tell a different story.  I believe virtual world conferencing was the underlying premise.  That's what peaked my interest in SL, for what its worth

--Cinn

[Qie Niangao]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

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Qie Niangao wrote:

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

You can cut tier all you want, but until you shut off Marketplace, land will not recover, and thusly, SL will not recover.

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As much as I'd love to see Marketplace closed, or at least unified with in-world commerce in such a way that there's some renewed motivation to keep in-world stores, I don't think it's a logical necessity in order for SL to recover.  If it were much cheaper to own or rent land, it might cause more folks to do that, get sucked into the joys of terraforming or something, and be proud SL landowners forevermore, happily spending L$s on patio furniture and sex toys.

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MP is free unlimited tier. Land can't compete.

Thus no shops. Thus no places that are funded by having shops on their land. Thus no places to visit.  Thus no one to meet going anywhere. Thus no reason to buy anything to look good visiting places. Thus no reason to use SL. Thus no reason to get a home in SL if there's nothing to do in SL.

SL can't survive just being linden homes, a sandbox, and a couple iconoclasts hiding out in their homes rezzing prims and not talking to each other. 

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But before there was Marketplace there was SLX and OnRez (or whatever those things were called) and still in-world stores thrived.  And it's already been mentioned that there are some wares that are best purchased after experiencing them in-world.  (Can anyone imagine buying animations on marketplace?)

You're certainly correct that the Marketplace commission is absurdly low, compared to tier -- and compared to the more relevant Android Market and Apple App Store.  Of course, if LL were to increase MP sales commission to the standard 30%, the merchants would scream bloody murder... and the Lab's Marketplace monopoly isn't behind an insurmountable barrier to entry, as we know from the earlier sites.

Anyway, I'm holding out a slim hope that the Lab might do something smart, based on another sentence in Rod's post:

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In addition, our service and quality focus in 2012 also means that we will be delivering features and policies that we believe will significantly assist merchants and landowners in running a business more profitably.

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It's just possible that they've finally understood the potential of unifying in-world and Marketplace search -- they're now on the same engine -- and they just might have the sense to make Marketplace transactions be commission-free for goods that are also sold in-world, thus providing some incentive to own commercial land.

Finally, and orthogonal to all the above, it simply doesn't follow that "no shops" means "no places to visit" and no socializing in-world.  Although there certainly are clubs that are subsidized by malls and stores, the majority are not -- and the vast (vast) majority of SL socializing happens outside of clubs and stores anyway.  There are plenty of role-play communities, for example, that are mostly or exclusively residential, and one could imagine that scaling up to the whole of Second Life, if there were no in-world commerce at all.  I think it would be dreadful, and every step toward such a future is a step in the wrong direction, but it wouldn't necessarily be the end of SL.

[Ceka Cianci]

oh i have even earlier clip when the grenades came with the bible..it used to take a lot longer to throw one back then.

sl used to be a church!! \o/

[Sy Beck]

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Mayalily wrote:

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

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Cinnamon Lohner wrote:

...Maybe its time to cash out.   What do you think?

--Cinn

 

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Nah, while I completely agree with your translation the sky isn't falling - just getting a little lower every day.  SL has survived a long time, even despite the mess that M made of everything.  This news is not exciting but at least it shows a purpose LL seems to have lacked for a very long time.

Rod's a game developer, wants to make SL a games platform and LL a games company.  That's not what I want for it/them but whatever happens I hope it works well for them.

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SL does need more strategies, as after awhile it gets very boring, such as I feel I'm just listening to the radio *yawn*.  SL is mindless entertainment for those who do not create content, like me.  It's just too boring as it is, and the role play sims seem to be pretty empty or very gorey and creepy.  Linden Realms seems like a start, but don't treat us like mindless idiots and expect a sort of listening to the radio with visuals as an entertainment that will keep us here.  SL is far too mindless.  And, I don't like hunts.  I don't want a bunch of heavy prim items I can't use or a bunch of clothes I may not like.  Residents do need something to engage our minds before we are bored to death. 

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When SL is an environment created for you to live out your imagination what does your post say about you Mayalily?

[Sy Beck]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

Rod's a game developer, wants to make SL a games platform and LL a games company.

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You may be right but there's no reason to suppose you are. Rod did come from a games company but that doesn't mean that games are what he's all about. It just means is that he has a good understanding of games behind the scenes.

I don't assume that Realms is a step towards SL becoming a games platform. I see it merely as a positive step towards something that SL should have had for a very long time, but the powers that be at LL were clueless. When new people sign up, there was absolutely nothing for them to do. Nothing. Unless a person knows what SL actually is in advance, s/he will expect there to be something to do. Realms provides something to do - something to occupy and benefit new people while they are getting a handle on what SL actually is.

If anyone tried to come up with something for people to do while they are getting used to SL, I think most would come up with some some of reward scheme, which is what Realms is. We agreed on that not long ago, before any of us had heard of Realms. And I think that most people would come up with making it some sort of game in which users can gain rewards. It didn't need anyone from a games company to come up with that sort of idea.

So I don't see Realms as an indication that LL is moving SL towards being a games platform. I might wrong, of course, but I don't see it that way.

Incidentally, LL needs to hire somone with an imagination. Calling it Linden Realms? What a silly idea. "Realms" is good name for a game but not "Linden Realms".

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Absolutely, the first hit is for free, once you love it you'll pay for it.  (Meant earnestly)

I don't fear Rod coming from games background I welcome it.  Games companies have been the pioneers of incorporating high end graphics and physics into a limited environment and getting players immersed into environment quickly.  SL suffers from graphics and retention of new users, it does though have a committed long-term user base that surpasses most if not all games and a user base that builds the products it wants.  A hybrid of the two would be an interesting and progressive development of SL.

[Sy Beck]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

"For creators our first new feature for 2012 will be pathfinding. Because worlds feel most vibrant when they are full of life, one of our next focuses for Second Life is

the ability to make high-quality “life” within it.

So in 2012, we will be rolling out more advanced features that will allow the creation of artificial life and artificial people to be much smoother. For starters, in Q1, we'll unveil a new, robust pathfinding system that will allow objects to intelligently navigate around the world while avoiding obstacles.Combined with the tools from Linden Realms this will make the polished creation of full MMORPG’s or people/animal simulators within Second Life easier and of high quality.

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This would be perhaps my biggest concern.

I can see a specific benefit for some types of role play SIMS.

But when I am out and about I want to interact with real people, not robots.  When I go clubbing, I dont want to be dancing with a bunch of robots.

So while I can see a limited use for this, I don't want to be exploring a mainland infested with robots.  Just think how nuts it could drive you  if they are so well done that you couldn't distinguish them at first glance from REAL AVATARS.  And if they are clearly distinguishable, then I'd feel like I was just playing some 3D shoot em up game on my computer.

Second Life to me is about interacting with real people.

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Play WoW or any other online MMO game that has NPCs, they stick out like a sore thumb because they are conceived to be that way.  Any front end development would ensure that, what a back end TP would is of course unknown, but in my life I've had few opportunities to employ the Turing Test so I welcome the introduction of our new AI NPC masters.

[Sy Beck]

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16 wrote:

the new tools at the moment powerful bc they break at least 3 systems permissions to work. is maybe a 4th one as well but i not test for that yet

autoattach hud breaks the accept / decline permission. it also breaks the attach permission. u cant decline the hud when is given to u at the moment. it auto attachs to ur viewer whether u want it or not. is also possible to make a hud that silently attaches to ur viewer and then detaches itself, so u not even know that happened

the portal teleport function breaks the llMapDestination permission. u get autoteleported if u walk into a stationary portal automagically. you also get autoteleported if u get hit by a moving portal. the rock monstas on the realms scripted to do that way. so can make bullets and stuff with this function. the destination of where u can be teleported to can be anywhere in SL

is quite a fundamental change to start breaking permissions. is why ll a bit worried about who can have access to these new scripting functions if they release as is

thats all they are really so far. just scripting functions that do stuff that u can do now anyways. they just not need ur permission to do stuff on/to u anymore

the pathfinding script functions not available yet. that be of more interest to more ppl i think who want to make npcs and life forms. is also a AI type thingy being made as well i think. not sure when or if we will get that separate. or if will be combined with the pathfinding

 

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Good points and ones which raise concerns.

[PeterCanessa Oh]

@ Phil & Others who commented on my previous post here:

Sorry, tl;dr, it's Christmas.

There's nothing Earth-shattering or sky-falling in Rod's blog.  It's good, "everything is for the best in this best of all possible worlds" corporate guff.  I read 'games' into it but that's because my ouija board told me to, not because the blog said it'll happen.

My only 'take home' message is, "LL at last seem to have a CEO who knows what he wants to do with SL.  I hope it works but even if it doesn't it's probably better than the drift we've had over the last several years.  Bob bless us every one."

[Phil Deakins]

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Deltango Vale wrote:

"Compared to the available universe of consumer electronics, games, hosting services, entertainment and communications, the RELATIVE PRICE of tier has TRIPLED since 2006."

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What does this have to do with land? In 2007-2008, Linden Lab pumped out vast quantities of new mainland without any kind of land-management strategy. Never did the company consider the future. Never did the company consider the tens of thousands of residents who were 'investing' their money, time, enthusiasm, attitude, morale, word-of-mouth advertising and 'good will' when buying that land. As of today, anyone who bought mainland before 2011 has suffered massive losses. What message do you think they will spread out into the world via Facebook, iPhone and Twitter? What happens when new recruits meet the wall of residents marching out of SL with horror stories about land ownership in SL? I'll tell you what happens. Joe says to Fred, "Don't buy land in SL, the tier is outrageous. Buy land in an Opensim at a fraction of the price then play for free in SL." And this is exactly what people are doing. They keep their SL accounts for socializing, but they take their date to an island in another world.

Yes, SLM has undermined commercial land to some extent, but nowhere near as much as the skyrocketing price of tier on top of a massive oversupply of land.

How do we know there is an oversupply of land? Easy, economics 101. The quantity of estate land is variable. As demand falls, estate sims are abandoned and

removed from the grid

. The supply of mainland is fixed. It cannot be removed from the grid. Therefore as demand falls, the price collapses - which is precisely what happened. The quantity of estates has been falling for 18 months. The price of mainland has collapsed. Result: tens of thousands of unhappy residents.

And Linden Lab reassures us that tier won't go up in 2012. Well, here is the story: in 2012, for the same price as a sim, former residents will be buying their own personal satellites in space - with onboard spa and tennis court - while watching free videos on Facebook while talking to their friends on Twitter while playing any number of free games while enjoying the life of kings for the same money they used to pay for tier on Second Life. That is the future unless Linden Lab cuts tier back down to 2006 levels.

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You're just waffling.

You said that "Something needs to be done to mop up the surplus and abandoned acreage on the mainland". I asked you why but you haven't even attempted to answer the question. Instead you go on about tier having increased, and that it should be reduced, which has nothing to do with what you said and what I asked. So one last time...

Why does "Something needs to be done to mop up the surplus and abandoned acreage on the mainland"?

If you don't have an answer, don't answer.

 

Incidentally (again) tier has not increased at all - relatively or otherwise.

[Phil Deakins]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

But before there was Marketplace there was SLX and OnRez (or whatever those things were called) and still in-world stores thrived.

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The difference is that SLX and OnRez didn't have the capability of being able to push themselves down everyone's throats, but the marketplace does, and that's what LL did with it from the start. And they still do it. Heck, for quite a while, when you got the login page to the site, you were greeted with "Welcome Marketplace User!", in large type, even though you weren't a marketplace user. LL send out emails to everyone, promoting the marketplace. Everyone's dashboard promotes the marketplace. Everyone's dashboard has a "What's Popular" link, and, a while ago, when the marketplace was new, it lied through its teeth by stating what was popular on the marketplace, but without saying "this is just what's popular on the marketplace". In its early days, inworld stuff was more popular, which is why it was a lie.

That's why inworld stores are failing - because LL push their own website mall to the limit, knowing that inworld stores go to the wall because of their unscrupulous actions. The marketplace isn't a useful extra like SLX and OnRez were. The way that LL do things, t's a complete 'instead of'.

[Ann Otoole]

If land was pay for what you use instead of this doubling thing then a lot more people would scarf up land that is currently laying fallow. I am not willing to double my bill to get one 512 to add prims.

The current system works against itself.

[Phil Deakins]

I've posted exactly that a number of times, Ann. I haven't been one to say that tier should be reduced because I don't have an opinion on that. But I have said that we should pay for the land we have (with a minumum increase of, say, 1024 or even 4096), instead of the huge jumps in tier. The jumps aren't bad at the lower levels but then they jump way too much until, if you own a whole sim, and you want to get a 1024 somewhere else, it costs an extra half a sim's worth of tier so you don't get it. Paying for (more or less) the land we actually have would encourage people to add "that small piece over there". Of course, LL would initially take a hit, because many people's tier would come down, but I think it would recover due to people adding small pieces right left and centre.

[Medhue Simoni]

Ditto!

[Ciaran Laval]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Qie Niangao wrote:

But before there was Marketplace there was SLX and OnRez (or whatever those things were called) and still in-world stores thrived.

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The difference is that SLX and OnRez didn't have the capability of being able to push themselves down everyone's throats, but the marketplace does, and that's what LL did with it from the start. And they still do it. Heck, for quite a while, when you got the login page to the site, you were greeted with "Welcome Marketplace User!", in large type, even though you weren't a marketplace user. LL send out emails to everyone, promoting the marketplace. Everyone's dashboard promotes the marketplace. Everyone's dashboard has a "What's Popular" link, and, a while ago, when the marketplace was new, it lied through its teeth by stating what was popular on the marketplace, but without saying "this is just what's popular on the marketplace". In its early days, inworld stuff was more popular, which is why it was a lie.

That's why inworld stores are failing - because LL push their own website mall to the limit, knowing that inworld stores go to the wall because of their unscrupulous actions. The marketplace isn't a useful extra like SLX and OnRez were. The way that LL do things, t's a complete 'instead of'.

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The new viewer even has a shop link in it, which takes you to the marketplace. Then there was the merging of balances, SLX and OnRez never had this sort of reach.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Ciaran Laval wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Qie Niangao wrote:

But before there was Marketplace there was SLX and OnRez (or whatever those things were called) and still in-world stores thrived.

---

The difference is that SLX and OnRez didn't have the capability of being able to push themselves down everyone's throats, but the marketplace does, and that's what LL did with it from the start. And they still do it. Heck, for quite a while, when you got the login page to the site, you were greeted with "Welcome Marketplace User!", in large type, even though you weren't a marketplace user. LL send out emails to everyone, promoting the marketplace. Everyone's dashboard promotes the marketplace. Everyone's dashboard has a "What's Popular" link, and, a while ago, when the marketplace was new, it lied through its teeth by stating what was popular on the marketplace, but without saying "this is just what's popular on the marketplace". In its early days, inworld stuff was more popular, which is why it was a lie.

That's why inworld stores are failing - because LL push their own website mall to the limit, knowing that inworld stores go to the wall because of their unscrupulous actions. The marketplace isn't a useful extra like SLX and OnRez were. The way that LL do things, t's a complete 'instead of'.

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The new viewer even has a shop link in it, which takes you to the marketplace. Then there was the merging of balances, SLX and OnRez never had this sort of reach.

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i hate that the marketplace has made me lazy to see the world like i used to..

i used to really be all over the place..and always finding other things while shopping..like clubs or friends or just really cool places you could dive or hang out..

i think my new years resolution for SL will be to just shop in world and maybe just use the market as a catalog..i really think i am bored because i have became an online shopper in my second life..a virtual couch potatoe :LOL

and the thing that scares me is i think a lot of people do the same as i do..and that can't be good for the in world..

[Phil Deakins]

What saddens me too is that the merchants forum here is all about the marketplace. I know that the marketplace has a stack of bugs, is faulty, and that LL don't have the ability to make it work properly, which is a big reason why that forum is dominated by the marketplacem but, even so, almost all merchants jumped onto the LL bandwagon, and that's sad. They have assisted the cutting of their own throats, metaphorically speaking.

Of course, since the marketplace started, with LL continually pushing it down everyone's throat, all the new people see that that's what shopping actually is, and new people since the marketplace began are, of course, the great majority of users. They are probably surprised when they first come across inworld stores, and maybe see them as something of a novelty.

 

[Mayalily]

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Sy Beck wrote:

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Mayalily wrote:

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

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Cinnamon Lohner wrote:

...Maybe its time to cash out.   What do you think?

--Cinn

 

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Nah, while I completely agree with your translation the sky isn't falling - just getting a little lower every day.  SL has survived a long time, even despite the mess that M made of everything.  This news is not exciting but at least it shows a purpose LL seems to have lacked for a very long time.

Rod's a game developer, wants to make SL a games platform and LL a games company.  That's not what I want for it/them but whatever happens I hope it works well for them.

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SL does need more strategies, as after awhile it gets very boring, such as I feel I'm just listening to the radio *yawn*.  SL is mindless entertainment for those who do not create content, like me.  It's just too boring as it is, and the role play sims seem to be pretty empty or very gorey and creepy.  Linden Realms seems like a start, but don't treat us like mindless idiots and expect a sort of listening to the radio with visuals as an entertainment that will keep us here.  SL is far too mindless.  And, I don't like hunts.  I don't want a bunch of heavy prim items I can't use or a bunch of clothes I may not like.  Residents do need something to engage our minds before we are bored to death. 

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When SL is an environment created for you to live out your imagination what does your post say about you Mayalily?

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Oh, I guess my imagination is stuck on two very precious kittens who think avatars are dancing cat toys on the screen.  My kittens take up a lot of my attention these days.  Also there isn't much for singles.  My mind is a little imagined in that I am a widow on SL with two children who slaps on a dance animation for the kittens to watch.

But seriously, since I'm not interested at this time to venture into SL creation, SL doesn't engage my imagination that much.  Linden Realms may be a little more interesting, but with the holidays, I've had other priorities. 

I don't think it's shopping on Marketplace that makes SL boring.  It's perhaps that I have a rl relationship and a rl bf who is not even interested in SL and who thinks it's boring without even trying it.  He'd rather watch sports and/or have a rl with me. 

Anyhow, back on topic.  To Cinn, if you are thinking of going elsewhere, you should.  There are all kinds of vocations and avocations to try in this lifetime. 

[Eio Tuqiri]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

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Eio Tuqiri wrote:

Replying to Monti Messmer who said, "What worries me more is the line about - release this new build features for Linden Realms only to a selected crowd - (not his original words but thats the meaning)."

I believe this is the part of Rod's post? "we will be releasing new tools used to develop Linden Realms, which will allow Residents to create even richer original experiences in Second Life. To prevent abuse of these tools, we will introduce a "creators" program in which verified members will be given access to these very powerful capabilities."

I'm with you Monti, I had a bad feeling about that too.

 

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"creation has always been limited to those that wish to learn it..owning can be for everyone."

Hi Ceka,

Not sure which part of my post you're responding to, but I'd say that, "those who wish to learn it" (from your post) will not be able to unless they are "verified members" (from Rodvik's post).  And as far as "owning can be for everyone" (from your post), my guess is that since only "verified members will be given access to these very powerful capabilities" (from Rod's post) I'm not sure how what they create might be given or sold into the hands, or seen by the eyes of those who are not allowed the capabilities.  I guess that remains to be seen.

And selling those things they may create brings up other questions of inequity, with only verified members being given access. 

[Phil Deakins]

I thought it was time I actually wrote something about the topic of this thread

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Cinnamon Lohner wrote:

I've just read Rodvik Humble's "plans" for 2012.  After lots of happy fluffy stuff came this:

"In addition to delivering new features and increasing our support for Second Life, we will be launching some completely different products next year not related to Second Life. Some of them will be very experimental, but all will fit within our company’s proud history of enabling creativity, which I hope may interest some of you."

My translation of that statement is: "We had a great run with Second Life but its not enough to make our investors happy so we will be spending our research dollars on other products.

Maybe its time to cash out.   What do you think?

--Cinn

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I rethought my commitment to SL two years ago. Largely because I got bored with it, but LL's frequent actions against their customers were also a large part of the reason. They were really two big reasons. Back then I decided to shut up shop because of those two reasons and, since then, the shop has been slowly fading. I wasn't so bored, or so against LL, that I would cut off the flow of money that the shop was, and still is, making, but I haven't done anything to help keep it going.

Since that decision two years ago, and the store fading, I've reduced my land, in two stages, from almost a full sim down to a quarter of a sim, and I abandoned the land I got rid of specifically so that LL wouldn't have continued tier income on it. I don't think it will too much longer before the remaining quarter sim is abandoned.

So my commitment to SL, and especially to LL, went out of the window two years ago.

[Eio Tuqiri]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Since there are no longer any viewers that can't view mesh, unless you're on official v 1.2.3 from 2009... I doubt its that.

 

 

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I regularly use a Phoenix viewer that does not view mesh.